Transcript
Index
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INTERVIEW WITH REVEREND CARDES BROWN
SPEAKER 1:
Three, two, one. It's all you.
INTERVIEWER:
Do you mind stating your name, today's date, and your profession for the time.
REVEREND BROWN:
I'm Cardes Brown, Pastor Cardes H. Brown. Uh, my, I guess, claim to fame is I've
been a long time around and serve, and serve as the pastor of New Light Missionary Baptist Church in the city of Greensboro. I've been privileged to be here now for 45 years at this location, and thankful to God that I've been allowed to pastor for now almost 55 years. So I guess, October, I've just been along and around so long that, uh, uh, I've got a lot of remembrances. Yeah.INTERVIEWER:
And just to go back to where you started, you grew up in Rocky Mount, North
Carolina, right?REVEREND BROWN:
Rocky Mount, North Carolina. We called, we referred to that as the metropolis of
the east. I grew up in Rocky Mount and, and you know, Rocky Mount is a very unique city in that it is it divided into, uh, two counties, Edgecombe County and Nash County, all divided by a railroad track. So I was born in Nash and I grew up in Edgecombe, and all I had to do was walk across the track to be either where I was born or where I grew up, just walking across the railroad track. Rocky Mount, North Carolina.INTERVIEWER:
And how was it like growing up in Rocky Mount, North Carolina?
REVEREND BROWN:
Well, growing up in Rocky Mount, ah, especially I was born in 1945. So growing
up in Rocky Mount was much different than growing up in Rocky Mount is today. Uh, I grew up at a time when, uh, color was a, a, a very pronounced description of anyone. Uh, you were, you were black or you were white. And there was a very strong divide with respect to, uh, the color codes within my gen-, uh my day. And so Rocky Mount was that way.REVEREND BROWN:
Uh, it was a time in Rocky Mount where the major, uh, uh, income was derived
from things like tobacco and cotton and so forth. And that required a lot of physical labor and the laborers quite often were, were black and the people who, who employed the laborers were white. And your ethnicity was so pronounced that words, the N-word and things like that were commonplace.REVEREND BROWN:
So early on in my life, I-I got sort of involved because of my not being willing
to accept a, the humiliating status of, of, of, uh, inferiority. And as young person, I was affected to the degree that I did some things that were somewhat, um, uh, contentious or unacceptable in that day. Um, I think the first time, this might surprise you, that I had opportunity to go to, uh, to the place where the jail was came as a result of drinking water from, uh, uh, what we called a white water fountain.REVEREND BROWN:
In that day they had a colored and a white fountain at Belk-Tyler's in Rocky
Mount. I didn't see anybody around, I think I mighta been somewhere about 12 years old. I was playing little league and we were on our way home, so we stopped by Belk-Tyler's to get some water and there was a colored water fountain and also white. I didn't see anybody so I decided to drink from the white fountain, see what the difference was in the water. And as I did drink, I felt a hand behind my neck, and um, they said, "Boy, what are you doin'? Do- do, can't you read? Don't you see that's for white only?"REVEREND BROWN:
Anyway it ended up that I was... the police came, took me down to the police
station where the chief called my father. And my father came and I was sitting there waiting to go to jail, at an early, at 12 years old maybe, and my father worked in and he was so upset. He said to me, "Boy, what is wrong with you? What's wrong with you?" And I said to myself at that time, October, I said, "Oh my goodness," I said, "I'd rather stay here and go to jail," than what I anticipated would happen to me when I got home.REVEREND BROWN:
And, and the police, um, said to my father, he said, you be sure to take care of
that boy when you get him home. And so I, I knew I was doomed. I got in the car and as my father drove off, got to the light, I was shivering for fear. He looked back and he said, "Son, was there any difference in the water?" And I said, "No sir." And that was the only reprimand, if you call it a reprimand, I got.REVEREND BROWN:
And since that time, it has been an insistence in my spirit that things have to
change. We can not be demoralized and dehumanized and placed at a level that these things... So I've been very, I've been what you would call an activist since I was a child.INTERVIEWER:
And speaking of your father, he was a reverend also, right?
REVEREND BROWN:
He was. He pastored for 56 years. And, uh, at a time, uh, when, uh, parenting
was much different. You were not, uh, you were not just a child of your parents, but your neighbors (laughs). It was, uh, uh, I, I got whippin's from my neighbors. They had the same right, I guess, as a parent. If, uh, if they saw you doing wrong somewhere else, they would whip you and then tell your parents, and your parents would whoop you again.REVEREND BROWN:
So it was a community, you were raised by the community. And, and, uh, during
that time of segregation we were much more, uh, clandestine, we were more drawn together as units. And so, uh, my father being a pastor, and my mother being a school teacher brought many people into our, our home. Um, my mother, um, um, I can well remember how I would see her in the living room teaching, uh, uh, some of the other children to read and stuff. And, um, it was an open type of involvement where we were responsible for each other.REVEREND BROWN:
So my father pastored and, and I grew up in that kind of atmosphere where I was
always around people and involved with people. So daddy, uh, pastored, my mother taught school for more than 40 years. And so that was sorta my upbringing in Rocky Mount. And it also, uh, sort of, um, uh, influenced my, uh, involvement in being really an activist growing up.INTERVIEWER:
How so? How did, um, being raised in a church influence your involvement?
REVEREND BROWN:
Well (laughs) you know, back in that day I thought everybody was raised in
church. I just didn't see how anybody could make it without being really in church. Of course, um, um, my father was a Baptist preacher and um, Baptists at that time were more governed by a congregational politic where it was democratized like our society used to be. Uh, in church, basically in Christendom, you had maybe three major, uh, practices or politic. You had the episcopacy which is more or less the bishop is in charge, he makes the decision. Congregations sorta follows him. Then you have the Presbyterian politic, where it's more of committees. And then you have, uh, what I would call Baptist politic. Which is called congregational politic, where the congregation sort of decide, decides the, uh, direction that the church will move in.REVEREND BROWN:
I be very honest, as I have grown, I, I don't know that that politic is as
reflective of scripture as maybe the episcopal politic. Uh, because, I find it, um, really unacceptable to say we vote on things that God has already settled. In other words, and I don't think that when it comes to things like whether we should love our enemy, why would we vote on that? It's all in, the word says love your enemies. So I don't think that. So in a real sense, to be biblical, and to really understand scripture, I think we are more of a theocracy than we are a democracy. So that's, that's sort of, um, how the influence of the church in my life, growing up, uh, was so, uh, meaningful to me to the end of who I am today.INTERVIEWER:
How did you begin getting involved after that incident at 12 years old? How did
you start getting involved in your activism?REVEREND BROWN:
Well I think that many things we are involved in, it may not just be determined
by us that I will be involved in this, or I'll be involved in that. Sometimes our situational, uh, uh, experiences, uh, uh, guides us and directs us in certain areas of life that maybe we did not intend to be there. You know, scripture says, uh, our steps are ordered by the Lord. It also says in Romans 8:28, "All things work together." Many times you may not know it, October, but there's some things that are working that will determine whether you will be, uh, be in, in Greensboro or somewhere else tomorrow. We, we don't always pick and choose what we gonna do. Some things, uh, are beyond our capacity to fully understand.REVEREND BROWN:
So I think that born in the day that I was born in and seeing what I had seen,
and I think very much the reason I'm still here today, is there's a contribution that I must make. I understand that you are talking about maybe being a historian or going into an area where you become a chronicler. All those things, I, I can tell you this, when you ask a question like that. Never, did I ever think I'd be a preacher. That was not my intent.REVEREND BROWN:
In fact when I, I began at A&T, I, I purpose to be going into medicine. But
after I got into analytics, geometry, and chemistry, uh, and calculus, I determined, no, I didn't wanna be a doctor, you see? So some things navigate you situationally. So, um, uh, I think that those things that were early on in my life sorta influenced me more than maybe I, uh, recognized then as I do now, that sort of brought me to where I am.REVEREND BROWN:
In my day and time, pressures that can (inaudible) it was almost impossible not
to be involved in civil rights or in activism. So we have a lotta young people today, they have not a clue. They don't, they don't see. If I told you all of the experience, you, you would say, "Nobody could treat you that way," but they did. You know, it was nothing in my day to be spat upon and you better not say nothing. Or slapped. And you couldn't do nothing. You know, you wouldn't accept that now. That is the changing of time. And there are things that no doubt your children will never believe that you experienced. But we are on a continuous, uh, uh, uh, journey that moves us. Some things we control and some things we can not control. There're things that make us and calls us to be who we are.INTERVIEWER:
How did you start getting involved in the NAACP?
REVEREND BROWN:
It, it, it came more by, uh, at the time of being in ministry. And there, you,
you, some things you have to decide. How am I to carry out what I believe to be a vocational connection to what I do? And that means, vocation means a calling. You see it's one thing to go to school seeking to, uh, discover an occupation that can bring income for your life. It's one thing to be professionally connect to what you're doin'. You go to school, you want to be a teacher. It's good to be a teacher. Because you see that maybe I can provide for my family. But now more than you might know, teachers see themselves as being involved in a ministry, which is a calling. Because many times the pay is not really what you're there for, you know. In ministry, I don't believe you can effectively do it unless you believe what you're doing to be that which you would do if you didn't get paid. Because it's a calling.REVEREND BROWN:
So call be, I was a sophomore at A&T at the time, that I knew I could not resist
what I had to do. I remember my father and I were not very close when I was growing up. And, and, and, and, I'd gone through a series of dreams. And in the dreams I was, I was preaching. The very thing that I say I would never do. I used to resent so much my father always having so much time for other people. He was always gone, he was always in revival. And, and the one thing I said, "I'll never be a preacher." That's what I said.REVEREND BROWN:
But I had this series of dreams, and, uh, I remember when I was convinced that I
could do nothing but preach. I remember callin' my father about two o'clock in the morning. And, and, and I was led into ministry because in this dream I was preaching a funeral and it was my father. And, and it was so real, October, I got up and at two o'clock in the morning I called my father to tell him I'd been called to preach. And my mother answered. And when she, and when I asked for him, I knew she was gonna say you're father's dead. But instead, when she gave him the phone, I simply said to my father, "Daddy, I been called to preach." And he said to me, "I know, son, I'll talk to you about it in the morning."REVEREND BROWN:
And that's how I began my, uh, vocation. Uh, and since that time I'd started
pastoring at an early age of 19 years old. I was still a student at A&T. Uh, for the first five years of my ministry you can imagine I, uh, to drive from here to the church I pastored then in Scotland Neck, 19 years old, and I would, uh, go down weekly. I had sort of what we called in that day a circuit. I pastored four churches. I'd be at this church one Sunday, another church on the next Sunday. And truly, it was probably some of the best days of my life.REVEREND BROWN:
Can you imagine at 19 years old I'd drive (inaudible) church, and other little
children, I'm just 19, but children would be sayin', "The pastors here, the pastors here!" And, uh, experiences that, uh, are impregnated in my mind, I never forget them. And, uh, so from that, getting around people, think about this. In my day and time, seeing how people suffered, worked for nothing, were mistreated, work and pushed and around, called all kind of names. How could I be called to preach, see these things happen and not feel a sense of obligation to be a voice for the voiceless. So in many ways I had very little choice to become very actively engaged in speaking out and speaking for and speaking to situations.REVEREND BROWN:
So, uh, and because I was called to pastor early, from that time, all the way up
now, 55 years later, I, this has been my life. To stand up. So the NAACP, the oldest and baddest, and boldest organization, civil rights organization in the world, there's no organization in our 110 year history that is to be compared to the NAACP. It grew out of an awareness of the persecution that people were, were experiencing. The mission of the NAACP is to ensure the political, educational, social and economic equality of rights of all person's, and to eliminate race based discrimination. That's the mission. Yeah, to ensure the political, educational, social, and economic, uh, rights, equality of rights of all persons, and to eliminate race based discrimination.REVEREND BROWN:
When you hear those words and you, you receive them as your anchorage, this is
what I must do. I must fight to secure it and to ensure the rights of others. So I've been engaged in it since early on, before 19, and uh, I'm now at that ripe old age of having reached the years promised and a few more. And, uh, I, I reflect upon my, my engagement in that mission.REVEREND BROWN:
And it was easy for me to get involved in, in the oldest and boldest
organization. Because they were fighting for the things that I saw my calling into ministry were all about, you know. And so for those years, uh, uh, our civil liberties, our civil rights, the things that I do believe biblically are, are aligned with the, the, uh, profession of my faith in Christ, I am to, based on my interpretation and understanding of the scriptures, I'm to make the word flesh. It's one thing to get up and be an orator or a proclamator, or a promulgator, prognosticator, a preacher of what we call to be the gospel, which is the power of God unto salvation. If that's the case then I gotta do more than talk it. I gotta walk it and believe it and do all I can to enact it. So that's how I got involved in civil rights, because civil rights are human rights and human rights are divine rights, and they are the right that every creation of God is entitled to.INTERVIEWER:
And what are some things, looking back on how long that you've been with the
NAACP, what are some things that you're very proud of to have achieved as your time there?REVEREND BROWN:
Well, you know, my personal gains are not as important to me as the things that
have been done that were consequentially to the benefit of others. There've been many things that I have received as honors and awards. And, you know, I just a few of them, I have hangin' on the wall or displayed in other places. But some of the things I've done over the years that have really led to some major changes that I celebrate when, when I think about whether my life has meant anything... um, I pastored several churches, which means that I've had opportunity to touch many lives, uh, with the gospel. A word that leads to salvation. I, I've been blessed to serve on many boards and commissions. Um, I've served on, uh, hospital boards, I've served, uh, as the chairman of the board of the Department of Social Services.REVEREND BROWN:
I've, there's just been so many opportunities. See, what I see is that God opens
an effectual door of opportunity and, and our responsibility is to seize the opportunity of the door that's been opened. So by him doing that, uh, you know, I see everything that I've happen. Even pledging a fraternity was all an opportunity to reach out just a little bit further to spread that gospel or good news. And, uh, uh, now across the nation I have probably close to 100 associates that I've licensed to preach. And when you ask me what, can you look at your accomplishment, a, a lotta times it's not anything as it, as it relates to my, uh, achievements.REVEREND BROWN:
I look at the preachers that I've had opportunity to license to preach and say,
these are my credentials. These are they who can speak for what I have done. And all of them I expect to do much more than I've done. And so it is in this spirit of ubiquity. Ubiquity simply means to be everywhere present. Well there's only one way that I can be everywhere present is that, is to in some way make copies of me and then send them everywhere. So, uh, I, uh, I celebrate that.REVEREND BROWN:
I said that in my message today that, uh, what we want to do... there's a
scripture that says the work that I do, Jesus Christ said that to his believers, the work that I do, you should do and greater works. The question become how can we ever do greater than he? It is because he said it, one, but secondly he's talking about in extension I've done some things that you will do and even more than I've done. Because in his lifetime, Jesus probably walked maybe 3,000 miles. But think about how many mile... I just goin' to Jerus- goin' to Tel Aviv, Israel. And Rome, I (inaudible 00:26:55). You see, so we are going further in extension. And as you go, you take this word with others. And you find that people are led out of dark places or out of darkness into light and we become more knowledgeable.REVEREND BROWN:
The beautiful think about, um, uh, study, is that it improves you. You become
more aware of your purpose and time in this life is, is a privilege. That many things can be done by and through you. And so I guess in my case, I thank God for the many evidences that in some way what I've done has touched and improved the lives of others. And so my (inaudible) things that you know, you know, um, where people are... I, I just came back and I received at the national, our national convention, uh, uh, what is considered to be one of the most, uh, prestigious awards. It was a Benjamin Hooks Keeper of the Flame Award I received this year. And I think that inducted into the Morehouse board of preachers. Uh, all of those were good and I appreciate them, um, because it says that somebody has noticed something in you that gives you this recognition.REVEREND BROWN:
But when I can see a person like you, October, and you say, you know, uh, and,
and meeting him and talking to him he gave me, he tried to inspire me. You noticed the first thing I asked you was what are your aspirations and you told me, and I said, "You can do it, and it will make the world better." Because when you are a chronicler, when you are a historian, when you're somebody that understands that if I can capture where we are now so I convey it to those who are coming along I can help to improve things. You see? So our contributions are intended to make things better for others.SPEAKER 1:
Hold on one... yeah, yeah you're fine now. There is a question I do wanna ask.
REVEREND BROWN:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
SPEAKER 1:
Um, so we talked a lot about your accomplishments and what you've, like, been
able to achieve and how you basically, you know, helped improve society. But doing something like that creates a lot of enemies. Could you tell us more about your experiences with those?REVEREND BROWN:
Mohammad wants to get into the fun stuff now, this is what... absolutely. So,
uh, in, in answer to, uh, a question like, "What has been consequentially things you've had to deal with because of being an activist, being one who is outspoken, one who is always defending and arguing the interests of others?" Well, I don't know how many times I've gone to jail. I don't know how many times I've participated in what we call civil disobedience.REVEREND BROWN:
I remember, uh, years back, um, we had, um, an issue with the Kmart that had
come to D.C., distribution center opened here in Greensboro. As a result of seeing the inequities that were practiced, um, by the company to the employees, they hired a lotta temporaries. That, that was to keep them from having to pay the basic things that were, um, you know, generally expected. Insurances and things like that. To avoid that they would hire temporaries. And you would work, but you didn't get benefits. So we took to the streets, and of course I along with others were arrested fighting for the rights of others.REVEREND BROWN:
Well that wasn't the only time. I remember we u- Dr. William Barber, of course,
many know him across this nation as um, principally he initiated what we call Moral Mondays. And I was arrested then. I remember other times I were, I was arrested here in Greensboro during the time when we had the protests with respect to, uh, things that the city was do- doing, that uh, showed that equity and equality were not being practiced. And some young students were arrested. Well the next day, preachers got together and we were arrested. So consequentially when you speak out and become a voice, you can express or you can expect some, um, uh, resistance, some contentions, some, uh, greater, uh, intimidations and harassments that you would get. I've experienced all of that in life in fighting in the interests of others.REVEREND BROWN:
So, um, many of those remembrances, you would look at 'em and you would, uh, you
would find them as something that you would do all you can to avoid. But then you come to the place when you see the effectiveness of your protests, your outspokenness and what has happened as a result of it that you in a mood to do it even more. I do believe that's what, uh, in my lifetime, I was privileged, one of the persons in life that I had opportunity to meet and sit down and talk to him was Martin Luther King. And people talk about it today, but he was a very real person. A genuine person. He was a person who really believed in what he was doing. And even understand consequences. Martin King knew that his life was constantly under threat, always. As I have come to recognize and been threatened many times because of my activism.REVEREND BROWN:
And uh, but, you, you realize and you understand... last night for example, at
our NAACP state conference, William Barber, Dr. Barber, Bishop Barber now, spoke. His life is constantly being threatened by his involvement and his outspokenness. But you have to come, even as Martin King and many others who were with Martin, Jesse and I, we were in school together and we're very close friends today. Uh, Jesse Jackson, Wyatt Tee Walker, who was one of his lieutenants. We play golf together annually we would play in a golf tournament. We'd call it the saints and sinners golf tournament. So Wyatt Walker, um, and all of these persons who, uh, were very inf- influential in my life and instrumental in my life, uh, (Gardner Teller 00:34:59), uh, these are names that some people, those in the, in the uh, world of, of proclamational ministry will know these names. But they were the persons who were the icons of my, uh, uh, admiration.REVEREND BROWN:
So there's always some risk involved, uh, but it is, it is, uh, a consolation to
see the benefits and the benefits outweigh the risk so you keep doing it.INTERVIEWER:
And what benefits have you been able to see in Greensboro? Have you, how have
you seen Greensboro progress as a community?REVEREND BROWN:
Well Greensboro is a, a city that we still have many challenges. Um, I've been
here, no intent to be here this long. I came here to make this a pit stop. I certainly did not intend to be here for all of my, most of my life. But the challenges I find in Greensboro I also find almost everywhere else. So why go to another challenge where the challenge is already in the place where I am? I might as well stay here and deal with the challenges. Um, some people would not know that in Greensboro we now, African Americans are 40% of the population. Even a little bit more than that now. In Greensboro we're more than 50% of the public school uh, uh, um, population. These are the children in our school. So we now as African American have dominant, um, race. Uh, I don't even like to use race, but ethnicity in the school.REVEREND BROWN:
And when you look at that, when you look at your public schools, when you look
at the population of, of the city you're in, and you recognize some disparities, and there are many, you see that your work is out, I mean it's for you. You're a young person. But in this city we're 45% of the population, and yet in this city we're 35% of the tax revenue in the city, and we get less than 2% of all the contracts of that within the city. And yet as a people, we're 35% of the revenue. Something says somebody needs to speak out. Okay? Uh, in the city, though we be that much of the population and put that much into the city and get so little out of the city, it is no reason for us not to understand. The truth be told we are the tale of two cities. The haves and the have nots. And many times, the have nots are victims and being victimized by the haves. And so you have to speak out.REVEREND BROWN:
We had disparity study in the city of Greensboro. Griffin & Strong performed it.
They come up with many inequities. Things that are not fair. And almost in every area that they showed disparities, there's been a resistance in the city to bring parity and equity and equality. We're livin' in a world, October, that you're living in this world. Think about this. Most of the young people that go to school, they come out with so much debt, you'll never pay it off in your life. Reality. Is it right? It's got to be wrong. In this world, today, most of the people who own the wealth of the world, they've gained it either through the acquisition of, of, um, uh, of someone who is benevolent enough to have had to give them. And rather than sharing it, as if it really does not belong to anyone, there's this whole, uh, greed mentality. That the more you get the more you want, and you try to cover it and covet it so that, uh, there's a war going on between the people of a land that they can not possess beyond their death.REVEREND BROWN:
It doesn't matter how much you have. The question was once asked, "You know, Mr.
John has so much, and I saw he died the other day. What, what, uh, what do you think he left? The truth is he left everything." Because it's just for that time is only what you do while you in that time. So we have many fights and that's, uh, what I have decide that I must do while I have opportunity to do, so I stand to, um, take the risk. Because I think the risk is, is worth the benefits.INTERVIEWER:
And nationally as a community, when it comes to civil rights, what barriers do
you see this generation don't have to face that your generation did.REVEREND BROWN:
You know, I, that's an excellent question. And October, I wish I could be very,
uh, hopeful and very optimistic and say, "Oh there's so many things that you don't have to face that we had to face." Most of the things that back in my day, that we faced, the threat of bodily harm, they're back. Think about this. It was nothing in my day for a, a white person to slap you and you had no, no recourse. You know. Because to slap them back it would lead to your imminent death, right?REVEREND BROWN:
Well look at today. Today, uh, we've had so many African Americans killed by
police officers. The other day, uh, there was a young lady who said she had gone to the wrong, she was a police officer, she went to the wrong place, she shot a man, and that's the first time that I can recall in quite awhile, anybody who was an l- law enforcement officer prosecuted, uh, or found guilty, of, of, of just taking abuse and power. I can go back. Dontae Sharpe was released after 25 years of incarceration for a crime he did not commit. And that's one of the things we celebrated, uh, yesterday, at the, at the, at our state conference. 25 years.REVEREND BROWN:
And, and really, the Innocence Project knew that he could not have committed the
crime he was accused of. And even our governor, right now Roy Cooper, when he was the attorney general, new discovered that he was being wrongfully incarcerated, said, "Well all you got to do to go, go to the governor and present the case and he should give him a pardon." Well what happened when he became governor? We just said, well we got this, not now, he told us what to do. Want to him and say, "Well Roy, you told us, now you the governor. Can you pardon a man you know is wrong?" It took until just a few days ago that he was finally released after all these years.REVEREND BROWN:
So the- and those accounts. Uh, there's a young lady we just got out this
weekend. Uh, um, Ketrellia Harris. 14 years old she went into jail. Because there's a thing called felony murder. You don't have to do a crime. Just be with somebody who does it. You can be charged with the same crime. They call it felony murder.REVEREND BROWN:
There's so many things. When we talk about prison reform, when we talk about the
legislative reforms that we need to make it a fair playin' field.... think about this, we are only about 12% of the population of the country and yet we're almost 50% of those who are housed in jails and, and prisons. There are more people in prison in the United, in this country that we call home, than all of the other industrialized countries in the world. You know why? Profit. Right now we're trying to, uh, uh, privatize prisons. So that the rich people can make money off of people being warehoused in jail. We got a president, who right now, treat people who just are coming for the, to try to save the lives of their children, and we, we, we, he, he was serious when he said, "If you come over the border we're gonna shoot you." That's, uh, you can't do that. You can't do that. Not in this country. He said, "Well just shoot 'em in the leg." This is what you have in the White House.REVEREND BROWN:
So when we talk about civil rights, when, when, when the word is not starting
with a C, but S, in the minds of those who have the silver and gold, they don't care anything about your civil rights, your C rights. No. So we're living in some critical times. And even though we were at risk, uh, of being consequentially hurt or endangered if we fought back in my day, in this day I've seen so many young people killed, destroyed.REVEREND BROWN:
Uh, I have here, the church, a suspension program. Do you know that within our
school system there is nothing that we have in most of our counties and cities that address short term out of school suspension? If you get suspended from one to 10 days in public school, you have to go home and serve your suspension. If you come on campus you're arrested for trespass. You get in school suspension or you can get longterm suspension, there's something to address it. But how many of us can be suspended for 10 days and not get behind? We're set up to fail. We call it the pipeline from school to jail. See? And we see it. And the inequities continue to exist. It's almost like segregation. We saw the inequities and we thought th- to, to solve the problem of segregation we needed to integrate. Because that way we could hold all things alike. Can I tell you that didn't have a... that never happened. Because you were placed into schools many times where the people who put you there put you where you were not wanted. So how much education were you gonna get? You were gonna have to find a way to get it in spite of.REVEREND BROWN:
In my day and time, most of the children of my age, go back and look at 'em.
They in some way succeeded. Because in that day we had vocational schools because if you didn't go to college, I guarantee you were probably a good mechanic, you knew how to build a house, and all of that. So you did not see the idleness of today. The many people that just don't even have a job. And then the sad thing is they don't have a capacity by which they can create income.REVEREND BROWN:
You look at a lot of the people, we have to make income the best way we can. The
Snoop Doggs, you know, you get your rap, you say something, you go out. And we, we g- our, our fascination is with sometimes the vulgarity that impresses us, is really that which destroys us. Tupac. All of the ones that we sometimes revere and celebrate. They act out what they sang. And you have one or two, Snoop Dogg's that's come out with a sort of a religious rap song, and he and some of the clerics, and in many ways I applaud him. Because you don't, that, that's a rarity. You don't get, you don't, everybody don't come out of that, you know. So, so there were many who lost their lives just bringing, um, out their true feelings. So if you hate the police, and you rap that you hate the police, don't fool yourself, it's not always you are endeared by the people you rap about. So they find ways and means to retaliate. So we're in a situation where the consequences of our involvements can be endangering, you know.REVEREND BROWN:
So while I would, I could answer the question and say here's the things that I
see, the more I see now, to be honest with you, I feel that the times in which you live are almost more challenging than the times even in which I live.SPEAKER 1:
Could you tell us, actually about some of the retaliation that you've experienced?
REVEREND BROWN:
Well as I was saying, one of, one of the things that, uh, as you get involved,
um, I can share this with you. Um, some years ago I was in- involved in what we call, um, Concerned Citizens Against Police Brutality here in Greensboro. And at the time that I got involved we formed a group that we, that we identified ourselves as Concerned Citizens Against Po- Police Brutality. There was a young man that was beaten right off of Martin Luther King Drive now. And it was reported to me, and at the time I was president of Pulpit Forum. And I got involved in it.REVEREND BROWN:
Um, uh, a, um, a, uh, police officer saw these young people and he, uh, the
driver, uh, he had stopped to, to talk to... he did not arrest him, but the young man that was a passenger in the car began to mouth at police so they arrested him. And, uh, it was obvious that they beat him when they arrested him. He was a hemophiliac, which meant that he, they couldn't stop bleeding. So he ended up goin' to the hospital. We got involved in that. As a result of that we got about six or seven police fired. Uh, or officers of the law 'cause some of 'em were with the sheriff department. And when that happened we were celebrating the fact that we had had a major accomplishment. These officers were fired.REVEREND BROWN:
But consequentially the young lady, or that, that time, my minister music's
granddaughter was, um, uh, beaten by the person I was defended, defending. And she was very upset. She said they should've beat him. They should've. I say, "But that would've been wrong. We can't do that." And of course, as a result of that, she left the church, she went to another church.REVEREND BROWN:
And, uh, the officers that were not fired, uh, uh, sort of, um, tracked me. I
remember on Gillespe Street not far from the church I was stopped, snatched out of the car, thrown against of her car, frisked, and uh, they said, um, they searched my car and they found a bag of marijuana they said. I knew it was not me. And so I accused 'em of what I knew that had to happen if it was there. And, and I said, "Well if it's there you put it there." And this is what they simply said to me. Said, "Well, we just want you to know that if we need to call you we will."REVEREND BROWN:
Intimidations and that kind of thing, I've experienced for a long time. And I
saw the best way to defend myself was to know the power of collectivism. So as president of the Pulpit Forum, I recognized I would never engage in a situation where I didn't have others who were with me. You know? But the retaliations have been many. I could tell you so many times, uh, that I have been involved in situations where there were retaliat- retaliations that were inflicted not only upon me but those who I was fighting for.REVEREND BROWN:
We had five wonderful police officers fired. Um, because of the system. Uh,
Charles Cherry, uh, uh, Officer Rayez, A.J. Blake, uh, Deborah Thomas. And others. I've watched this system, uh, victimize and push them out because they were not true blue. But they meant to do their job right. I can, I mean there just been things that have gone on, and I say this on this camera. But I've said it many other places. Where the inequities are so pronounced you cannot deny them, you know.REVEREND BROWN:
We have a chief right now who's retiring. He's retiring, gettin' his full
pension, who the mayor of this city said she knew lied. Well one of the things about an officer of the law, you can never lie. Because if you go to court and you testify against me, I'm a, I'm a cleric. But if I say something and the, and the police officer says something, the judge is gonna believe the police officer because the most severe punishment any police officer will ever see will be for being deceptive or lying. You follow me? There's one to tell the truth. What happens then if that's the bar, you're never to lie, so we, to that degree, we gonna believe the police officer over the cleric, you see, and the police lies. You see how you can put yourself in jeopardy? And over and over again many times we don't see the importance of holding those we give that kind of authority to in check. That's why you've had across this nation so many people, uh, and you very rarely ever see any officer of the law who kills a, a person.REVEREND BROWN:
Uh, Marcus Smith who died in this city. The state coroner ruled his death a
homicide. Our chief said, before it was ever really determined how he died, that it was a drug related death. And yet he's gonna retire with his full benefit and go off sailing in the sun, as many have.REVEREND BROWN:
Because our system protects those who egregiously violate the rights of others.
And nothing is ever done about it. So I, I, I understand the importance of speaking out and saying, uh, calling, you know, speaking truth to power. Saying this is not right. And there are consequences always when you do that. And, um, goin' to jail is just one of the consequences. Being denied certain privileges that really you would normally get. Do you have any idea what I coulda benefited for my personal gain if I'd just gone along to get along? You know. Um, I have a political pact that I started years ago. And there are so many doors of opportunities where you can get personal gain if you would go along. But to me it is too important to make known, I am one of those preachers that I, I leave here not with very much other than the satisfaction that I did what I could. I have not massed a f- amassed a fortune. God has been good to me. And there is no question in my mind, October, if I wanted to be a millionaire I coulda been there twice.REVEREND BROWN:
But it's much more important to me to sleep well at night. And, and, and I say
that in the spirit that when you do what you ought to do and you completed your mission, you can, you can rest well at night. I don't, I don't have any, uh, reservations or hesitations in, in keep, in keep on, in keeping on this track, you know. Doin' what I do. I don't know that I answered that question and I know that I, that you wanted to know. But there are consequences always when you decide that you have made a stand, you know. Scripture said when you've done all to stand, stand. We fight not against flesh and blood. I found that out. But against principalities. Against the rulers of da- darkness of the- spiritual wickedness in high places. These are realities and I've found that to be true.INTERVIEWER:
(inaudible) time. I was...
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