INTERVIEW WITH BUFORD POSEY
INTERVIEWER:
Curtis has done an interview with you before, and I've looked at that one. So
I'm just going to probably be following a lot of things that he's already told you but-BUFORD POSEY:
Okay, go ahead.
INTERVIEWER:
Can we get you to first just tell us a little bit about where you were born and
where you grew up, and that kind of thing?BUFORD POSEY:
I was born in Neshoba County, Mississippi and grew up there. Attended local
school, was Deemer Elementary School, then Philadelphia High School. There's-INTERVIEWER:
Go ahead, sorry.
BUFORD POSEY:
Well, there's a large family. In the olden days a lot of Polder folks, we used
to joke about if you met a guy and called him Mr. Poser and he said, I'm not a Poser. You said, well, which one is your closest relatives? But most of them have left there now. A lot of them died, of course, the old timers. Young people left, said looked like better opportunities elsewhere, so they took off to different places.INTERVIEWER:
What do you know about the nature of race relations in Mississippi when you were
growing up?BUFORD POSEY:
Well, there wasn't much relations. In other words, white folks didn't mix with
them, period. They just took it that black people were happy and leave them alone, unless you had business with them. So they lay out to themselves, of course, the segregated communities, and worked mostly in the sawmills, around sawmills. Deemer Sawmill, and Dewey's, and Mopler's. Had three large sawmills in Neshoba County at that time. Most of them were employed at the sawmills, and a few way back there on the East of Philadelphia near Meridian... of course, it wasn't near Meridian but towards Meridian, owned their own farms.BUFORD POSEY:
Some of them were fairly prosperous but they took the precaution of having their
cotton, it was mainly cotton and corn country, and they had their cotton baled and they carried it to Meridian to sell it. In other words, the gin down in Meridian and they sold it there. There's a Cole family and the Calloways were the main two black families in the county that had a little money, but they were smart enough to not to let the white folks make any noise about it. In other words, they kept it as quiet as possible. Some of them had a little money but they spent it in Meridian, instead of coming to Philadelphia they'd go to Meridian.INTERVIEWER:
Kinda get away a little bit.
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah, get away, for sure.
INTERVIEWER:
You grew up in Neshoba County. What did you do when you got older?
BUFORD POSEY:
Well, my dad had a little old farm. He had been in the logging business and a
damn load of logs fell over on him and broke a chain and fell over on him and flattened him out, so he had to retire because he became crippled. He got some kinda rheumatoid arthritis or something. I don't know. Anyway, he was terribly badly crippled. He'd hobble to walk but he needed a walking stick and it was painful to walk. He had had contract with the Deemer Lumber Company that furnished them all the logs. So he made a good bit of money that way, but of course, when he got where he couldn't boss that outfit, usually you can't turn over your business to someone else, like you said there. There was corruption there.BUFORD POSEY:
I was brought up, I guess it's called middle class at that time for Mississippi.
Out during the depression, I heard the word depression and I knew money was scarce. There were a lot of beggars around. People was hobos in those days. We weren't too far from the railroad. Well, we were a mile from the railroad tracks. A lot of hobos would come out and beg. They'd work for just anything and do any kind of work just for a meal.INTERVIEWER:
During the depression?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah, during the depression. That was what made my earliest impression on me was
the depression. And then there's a black family in Deemer Camp. They called it Deemer, where the people that worked at the sawmill at Deemer were black families there. Some whites. They kept them just as segregated as a road would separate them, I'd say 100 yards. All the buildings, the houses, were all owned by the company and if you've heard this old hillbilly song about the company store. Those people were steered towards the store that these lumber companies put out their own currency. Coupons we called it, and so on. What they'd do, they'd sell them.BUFORD POSEY:
If they went to the grocery store to get credit, they had to give them coupons
and charge them like it's a full dollar value. Of course then these people, they'd use them at the store there, they'd go to town and knock 30% off. And they had to deal with the local banks. I don't know what exactly it was. I understood they give banks 10% off a wallet full of coupons and they paid you, the sawmill owners, in cash, these companies in olden days. One of them, Deemer company it was called, Adams-Newell Lumber Company, it was owned by people from up North. They just local managers that worked there.INTERVIEWER:
Would you have served in World War II?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yes.
INTERVIEWER:
What did you do?
BUFORD POSEY:
Just to be honest, what I done what I was told. Just like everybody else. That
was an unfortunate situation. I got out all right, but it was a damn mess. I'll never forget I got there. Everybody had something Aide de Camp. A full colonel I'd run errands for, Colonel Ritchie. He took a liking to me. His only son had been killed at war, and he took me. I was the exact age. I was just a kid, and his son was too. He sort of adopted me like. It was interesting experience. I look at back at that sometimes I think of the things that happened in World War 2. There's an old saying of course the first casualty of war is truth. And I was thinking the other day, just reminiscing.BUFORD POSEY:
I remember I was in Camp Claybourne, Louisiana, and the French surrendered to
Germany in July of 40, 1940. Then Vichy France preceded by Pierre LeValle and Marshall Patain. Pierre LeValle had been a fascist leader in France, but Patain had been a great marshall in the French Army in World War I, big hero. So they put him up as figure-head president, and the Premiere. They called him Pierre LeValle. Reason I knew so much about the Colonel, he always talked to me a lot. I was interested in things like that, and he talked to me kind of like I was his son. Course, I knew my place, he was the friggin boss and I just did what he said. We discussed things. I have little unusual background, interested in foreign affairs. There used to be a southern agriculturist magazine in Memphis, Tennessee, published there, and they'd publish letters to the editor. I remember I kept them for a long time, but I guess lost them. Threw them away.BUFORD POSEY:
When I was 11 years old, that was 1936, when Hitler took over Germany. Of course
Hitler, we'd called him Oscar and assassinated the chancellor, Adolfa, I believe he was. I said that we had better re-arm because Hitler was going to try to conquer the world, and the United States had better wise up and realize that we weren't on the war front, we were still calling neutrality, past 1940. I said that was just ridiculous. There I was an 11 year old kid and I signed a letter to the editor, the Southern (inaudible 00:10:57), they published it. My name, and my age. I guess he agreed with what I said, wondered why a damn kid was thinking about that chisel.BUFORD POSEY:
I remember I'd write him along, and he published everything I wrote him. Another
one I wrote it turned out, pretty damn to be a prophet, or a I did on this particular one. 1938 I was 13 years old at that time, as so I wrote him a letter and they published it, cause I said we better watch out for Pearl Harbor, the Japanese were apt to attack us, surprise attack our fleet there, because that they had done that to Port Arthur in Asia to the Russians, and started the Russia-Japanese war in I believe it was 1904, something around there.BUFORD POSEY:
Teddy Roosevelt, President Theodore Roosevelt, won the Nobel Peace Prize for
having Russia and Japan go to Portsmouth, New Hampshire and sign a peace treaty there. So of course I had to read all of that stuff.BUFORD POSEY:
What I did, just be truthfully I didn't take much interest in the damn school.
My mother had been a school teacher before she married my father and so she would order books for me, because I wanted to read, and I read every book in the little library at Deemer Elementary School. Then I went up to the County Library, Neshoba County at Philadelphia. Wasn't much up there, but I read all their books, and so got to high school and I just read the damn high school library, and I was bored with the rest of it so didn't pay that much attention, tell you the damn truth here. In elementary school either. But I made pretty fair grades.BUFORD POSEY:
History was my thing. I felt like we were living in an era where people were
asleep, and I said, hell, we going to wind up speaking German or Japanese, one, or slaves, if we don't get off our butt and do something. At the time I attracted a lot of attention from the the teachers. Some of them agreed with me, some didn't.BUFORD POSEY:
I was always controversial, and that's what it was about when I was in
elementary school. You had a damn little kid, 11 years old popping off about what danger we were in from Germany, and Japan and Italy. I didn't worry about Italy cause I knew their record in World War I. (inaudible 00:13:42) she said it was nothing but fair that Italy be on Germany's side in World War II because we had to put up with them in World War I.INTERVIEWER:
You weren't afraid to kind of speak your mind? That was true later on, when we
get to the 50's?BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah
INTERVIEWER:
Is it true you were the first person to join the NAACP? First white person to join?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah, I didn't know at the time to tell you the truth.
INTERVIEWER:
Tell us how that happened?
BUFORD POSEY:
I was down in Jackson went there quite a bit. Fella named Tom Armstrong. Thomas
A Armstrong. I'll never forget his name. Thomas Alonso Armstrong. He didn't like that middle name, I teased him called him Alonso, later on. He had a brother that taught at (inaudible 00:14:42) I believe it was, close to Jackson. He was very proud of your brother being a college professor in a black school. Tom, I was member of the American Veterans committee, and he was too.BUFORD POSEY:
1946 he somehow had (inaudible 00:15:12) of the American Veterans Committee, so
I paid my dues to him. I think it was five or ten dollars a year, so it wasn't much. Maybe three dollars, it was very little in those days. Money was money still in 46. He asked me would I care to ... he said, Mr Poser, of course black folk called you mister in those days. He didn't care that he was older than me, but he still called you mister. He was afraid not to. He said, would you like to join the National Veterans for Colored People? He was on the membership committee there in Jackson, local branch. I believe it was ten dollars I think what it was, your dues then. Five or ten dollars. I didn't think much about it, I said, Yeah let's see if I got it, and I handed it to him, gave it to him.BUFORD POSEY:
He gave me a receipt. Later I got a card. I didn't think much about it to tell
you the truth. I showed some folks and I honestly didn't think it would cause a real blow up.INTERVIEWER:
Did you know what the NAACP was (crosstalk 00:16:32)
BUFORD POSEY:
Well, I knew it been formed, from my history reading, in 1909, I believe it was,
but was formed by a biracial group. I didn't think much about it. I said, well we all are vets. Everyone. Black, white, or colored, or not. In those days the polite word was colored, it wasn't black, it was colored.BUFORD POSEY:
See colored people in those days referred to Asians and everybody that wasn't a
so-called white person.BUFORD POSEY:
But I didn't think much about it.
INTERVIEWER:
You said other people, when you showed it to them, they were upset about it?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah.
INTERVIEWER:
What kind of reaction did you get?
BUFORD POSEY:
Why you keep rolling that nigger group? Wash it off. Their friends of mine, you
know. Ashford Jones asked, Who was that? and I realized I better not tell my neighbors it was a black guy in Jackson. Armstrong had a lot of talents. Where I got acquainted with him at, to tell you the truth, was through the American Veterans Committee, and he was a damn, he could shine shoes, he was damn good at that. Another thing what showed you how versatile he was, he was about probably the best damn photographer in Jackson. A lot of (inaudible 00:17:59) he was doing at that time to take photographs. He was good. He could develop them himself. He had his own little studio. It was at, I believe it was 137, but they had Fire Street in those days divided up into half. 137 and a half North Fire Street. That was the Fire Street Newsstand they called it.BUFORD POSEY:
Over the years Tom and I got to be good friends. He was close to Medgar. Tom was
a funny guy. He liked me and we were lifelong friends till he died. Of course, he died several years ago. He made friends with Medgar. He and Charles didn't hit it off someway or another. They were never good friends.INTERVIEWER:
So you got to meet Medgar too?
BUFORD POSEY:
Huh?
INTERVIEWER:
You met Medgar Evers as well?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah, yeah. I, who introduced him to me was, well it was kind of awkward, I
didn't realize it was, you know. I had been to New York some and I knew Roger Wilkins at that time was Field Secretary. They changed the title a little bit, and now they call them directors or something.INTERVIEWER:
Okay, stop, just one second.
BUFORD POSEY:
Ruby Stutslyle, or something. Anyways, she was related to the director of the
NAACP at that time, in Birmingham, Alabama. That's where I met her. I was in New York and I met her there, but I was introduced to her by Roy Wilkins. I was introduced to Roy Wilkins by his old friend Sidney Redman. Sidney 'Rebels' Redman. Redman's grandfather was first (inaudible 00:20:03) rebels, first black United States Senator. So he owned a lot of businesses, or his family did, in Jackson.BUFORD POSEY:
I had pretty good introductions, you see, I knew Dr. Redman and he introduced me
(inaudible 00:20:22). At that time he was a Republican Alderman in St. Louis Missouri. So he introduced me Roger Wilkins. See Redman was one of the lawyers that sued the University of Missouri Law School where Clarence ... what was that guy's name? Gaines. Yeah. And Gaines disappeared. They got him in, but you know the law said you had to be admitted, but he disappeared. I asked Sidney Redman did they ever know what happened. He said no they really didn't. They didn't know whether somebody bought him off or killed him. I felt like somebody killed him, you know, cause they never heard from him again.INTERVIEWER:
Apparently he just walked out his rooming house in Chicago where he was living
and never came back.BUFORD POSEY:
Nope.
INTERVIEWER:
Yeah.
BUFORD POSEY:
He just disappeared.
INTERVIEWER:
Interesting story. What did you think about the ...
BUFORD POSEY:
So, anyways.
INTERVIEWER:
Oh sorry.
BUFORD POSEY:
I was telling you how I got acquainted with Medgar.
INTERVIEWER:
Yeah. I'm Sorry. Yeah.
BUFORD POSEY:
So Roy Wilkins, at that time there wasn't any NAACP activity in Mississippi
hardly at all. Medgar was the first field secretary (inaudible 00:21:31). Roy Wilkins wrote me a letter and told me to, hell I didn't have a telephone way out in country in those days, not in Neshoba County. They didn't have poles that far out.BUFORD POSEY:
So I went over to see Medgar, he was in 1072 West Lynch Street, beside the
Temple Building, the Black Masons wanted to build. Believe it was on the second floor, if I remember right. Second or third floor. It was second floor, I believe it was. Anyway, I went up and had Roy, I knew Roy Wilkins quite well. Been him in New York and other places. So I went up, carried the letter with me, and got up there and I think he was, we called her Myrlie in those days, now the Yankees changed her name to Myrlie, but anyways Myrlie Evers of course was, I believe she was acting as her husband's secretary at that time.BUFORD POSEY:
Anyway, I remember Medgar had an office behind his secretary, closed door. So, I
went in and Roy was secretary then, black secretary naturally. So I hand her the letter. I said Roy Wilkins sent me to see Medgar Evers, he just had been appointed field secretary. And he asked if I open this letter they ask me to look him up, and so. Roy forgot to tell Medgar Evers about it.BUFORD POSEY:
Anyway, she was scared to death. White man walking in there and handing her a
letter for Roy Wilkins? She didn't know what to believe. She didn't know whether it was a letter, or (inaudible 00:23:34) or poetry or what. She ran in the back with it. She said, just a moment. I stood out there. Little while Medgar came out. He was a little shook up too. He said, I haven't heard from Mr. Wilkins. I said, well you should know his signature. It's there in that letter I gave your the secretary. So he read it, and talked a little while and he said, you got any local people you know? I said, yeah, Tom Armstrong. He knew Tom Armstrong. So I (inaudible 00:24:06) Tom on it. Tom said, I know him. So that was how I met Medgar Evers.INTERVIEWER:
How did Roy Wilkins, how did he know that, I mean why was he sending you a
letter? How did he know that you would be supportive of ...BUFORD POSEY:
Well, see, I had been introduced to him by Sidney Redman.
INTERVIEWER:
Right, Okay. So you obviously had a favorable view of the civil rights movement.
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah. See, I thought that the black veterans would be more militant than they
were. I thought taught that the white folks would give in and let the black veterans vote, and then in few years everybody would vote. It'd be a peaceful thing. I didn't realize everybody would take it as...BUFORD POSEY:
I talked to two brothers, both World War II veterans, they said, ah, that won't
amount to nothing. One of them was a professional soldier, he was a Major, and he said, they won't waste in hell. They'll be voting before you know it. It's nothing to get excited about.BUFORD POSEY:
The two brothers and I didn't understand all the damned excitement, you know.
Course Bill Boden run for re-election in 46, and he made it the big issue of his campaign. And that's what really stirred things up. I remember a lot of white folks in Mississippi didn't want to stir it up, cause they had it just like they wanted. They got Tom Q. Ellis. He'd been head of the Masonic Lodges of Mississippi, he was actually secretary, or some title or another, for many years. And he was known all over the state. And the Masons, at that time, thought they controlled the state politically. My daddy was a Mason, and most of my relatives were.BUFORD POSEY:
When Bill Boden got to bring in the race issue, they went on to Jackson. So Tom
Q Ellis said this is going to upset race relations in Mississippi. He said we get along fine now, and we'll run and we'll beat Bill Boden and shut that (inaudible 00:26:38)'s mouth up, see? And I know Fielding Wright went along with it. Tom Bailey had been governor and he died and Fielding Wright succeeded him because he was lieutenant governor.BUFORD POSEY:
I said we don't need Bill Boden. Wright was from Rolling Fork. He was from the
delta. He was a lawyer, a full time lawyer over there, and there was a big plantation on it, but he knew them all. He said, everything's just like we want it. He said, we don't want Bill Boden coming on and tearing things up. He's gonna make all them damn Yankees look at us and it's gonna be trouble.BUFORD POSEY:
Well, damned if Bill Boden didn't defeat Tom Q. Ellis. That was the political
surprise of '46 in Mississippi. Bill Boden just used the race issue over and over and over and damned rednecks didn't elect him. Called himself a redneck. He was born out there anyway. He was endowed Paplaville.BUFORD POSEY:
Truman came out with some sort of deal, abolished a poll tax, showed some
sympathy to the civil rights movement. So that's when Fielding Wright ran up for Vice President and Strom Thurmond, from South Carolina ran for President. He was governor of South Carolina. They met over in Birmingham.BUFORD POSEY:
One thing led to another and finally it dawned on me, this thing is a lot more
serious than people are taking it. Their not gonna let the register to vote and they're gonna try. I was a member of the Young YPSL. You ever hear of the YPSL?INTERVIEWER:
No, I don't believe I have.
BUFORD POSEY:
Well that was the Young People's Socialist League. That was Norman Thomas'
bunch. Well I admit they all used to have an office in New York. It was 119, 112 East Nineteenth Street, I believe it was, in New York. And so all them socialist groups, or radical groups we called them in those days, I remember I met the first black leader there, labor leader, it was, oh hell, A. Phillip Randolph. He was president of the Brotherhood of the Sleeping Car Porters. He was a big Thomas supporter. They were close friends. So Norman Thomas introduced me to him.BUFORD POSEY:
I stayed in New York a while and then I drifted on back to see, went to Georgia
to see, I remember I made an appointment to see. I spent the day with Lillian Smith. Did you ever hear of her? She wrote a book called Strange Fruit and later Killers of the Dream, you know (inaudible 00:30:05). She lived over in Clayton, Georgia. The mountains of Georgia. So I spent the day with her. And one thing led to another and I got more involved than I ordinarily would have. Being the only white person in the NAACP, I was about the only one in the South. I don't think I was of course, but(inaudible 00:30:35). He really got on me, you see?INTERVIEWER:
You probably were definitely the only one in Neshoba County.
BUFORD POSEY:
Well I was definitely the only one in Mississippi. I know that.
INTERVIEWER:
Yeah.
BUFORD POSEY:
And Neshoba County too. Damn right. Yeah. There wasn't even an NAACP in Neshoba
County in those days.BUFORD POSEY:
So I think you could say it probably saved my life. In those days you couldn't
take me serious. Thought I was I joking. There were so many Posers in Neshoba County and no one had ever killed a Poser or they'd have been in jail. I was the first one to break the jail house here. But I didn't go the penitentiary or anything like that.INTERVIEWER:
The people in Neshoba County, they knew about what you thought?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah. I was pretty open with it and people just jaw dropped. They thought I'd
gone crazy. Probably had looking back, practically speaking. Yeah. I'd had a couple sheriffs (inaudible 00:31:38) and most of the office holders were Posers or friends of Posers or relatives of Posers. So I know coming up, brothers and I, we didn't take a damn thing about traffic or drinking and shit. We done what we please. I remember a time I was grown but just barely grown I guess, and I had a gallon of moonshine in my hand on a Saturday afternoon in Philadelphia. The marshal said, Poser, don't carry that so open. See I didn't have a sack on it. I just had it on my finger. And I said, oh hell. Don't worry. It's just me. I'm not going to get in any trouble. Don't worry about it. So he said, well I wish you would take a sack. I said, yeah. He went and got me a sack and he said, put it in this. I said, all right, if it will make you feel better. So I stuck it in the damn paper sack, kept going.INTERVIEWER:
That's a good story.
BUFORD POSEY:
Things then changed and it still wasn't all that bad. They got a feller named
Jack Long Tennyhill. He was from Louisiana. He got in a feud. His mother was alone and his daddy, a Tennyhill, I think his daddy was deceased and his mother was too. And so anyway the Long family had a split or something. They run his ass out of Louisiana. They made him get out of (inaudible 00:33:14). So he took off and left. But he had a dream of creating, of all places, he was going to reconstitute the Long influence in Philadelphia, Mississippi. Such a hick town that at that time had about three or four thousand people.BUFORD POSEY:
He started on me. They had this White Citizen Counsel and then the State
Sovereignty Commission and all them started raising cain. So I thought it was funny. Tennyhill kept saying that I didn't believe in Southern tradition at all. Well, one of the last men killed in the Neshoba County jail was a cousin of my mother's so I told him, hell, that's the oldest Southern tradition. So I just challenged him to a duel. God damn, that broke a damn law. They had six months in jail, a $300 fine. Hell, they arrested me on that.INTERVIEWER:
For challenging somebody to a duel?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah. Newspaper editor Jack Tennyhill. Jack Long Tennyhill. He was boasting he
was a first cousin of the senator from Louisiana but Russell Long didn't recognize him. Well anyway, I caught a lot of nationwide publicity. I got arrested for challenging a newspaper editor to a duel.BUFORD POSEY:
Well by that time I kind of got pissed off then and so I started going up
(inaudible 00:34:53) and making lots of speeches and I called attention to what the hell was going on in Mississippi as far as race is concerned. And I think Ed King probably had it right. He had a good background and all. He spoke at different meetings all over the country. He did a good job of it, course didn't too many people listen to him, but somebody did. Especially (inaudible 00:35:27) in New York and Chicago and Saint Louis and Boston. Things went from bad to worse. It finally got better.INTERVIEWER:
Did you think that things were gonna take the direction they did in 1964 with
what happened in Neshoba County? Did you think it was headed in that direction?BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah. It was very obvious to me. There was too much hate. Shit, you could cut it
with a knife almost it was so. Had the Ku Klux Klan competing with the White Citizens Counsel. It was no competition. The White Citizen Counsel put out a business. Ku Klux Klan took over.BUFORD POSEY:
The White Citizens Counsel usually used economic pressure, fire a person or
maybe hit him on the head or something. They wasn't much for killing. That was the white (inaudible 00:36:30).BUFORD POSEY:
Harding Carter got it pretty well. He was(inaudible 00:36:37) democrat
(inaudible 00:36:37). I knew him pretty well up in Greenville, Mississippi. He said he was run out by the (inaudible 00:36:43) by the way. Carter was. But he wasn't any friend of Jack Tennyhill. But anyway he said that he called the White Citizen Counsel (inaudible 00:36:56) in addition to the Ku Klux Klan. What they did was they paved the way for it. And when it didn't work, well they, see they established the State Sovereignty Commission that really reported to the White Citizen's Counsel. It was a state government agency, but it would report to the White Citizen's Counsel what they'd found out about so-and-so and so-and-so.BUFORD POSEY:
Tennyhill was a local public relations director for the White Citizen's Counsel,
an editor of the paper there, the (inaudible 00:37:33) Democrat. And so he had a weekly column about me about something. I'd been in too. Some speech I'd made. So things got pretty hot for me. Course I started being heavily armed wherever I went. It's probably what saved my life, those two things. One I was a Poser. Nobody had ever really killed a Poser in Neshoba County and it was kind of (inaudible 00:37:58) In the olds days they wouldn't have done it then because (inaudible 00:37:58)but they would kill anybody that would kill a Poser. If they went to trial. They'd have shot him themselves. It's called tradition. Nobody ever thought about such a thing. So that kept me alive.BUFORD POSEY:
I went to see what happen. I went down to Meridian to see Mickey Schwerner. And
I told him, I said, Mickey, I knew he had his wife over in Jackson at that time. Rita was her name. I believe it was. Rita Schwerner, yeah. He owned a CORE field office, he called it. That was a confederated organization. That was NAACP and SNCC and, oh hell, I knew the guy that was the head of one of them for a long time. He was James (inaudible 00:39:10). CORE, Congress of Racial Equality. So I know him quite well. He was an old time socialist.BUFORD POSEY:
Anyway, I wish I was deeply involved, but I realized that they were gonna kill
someone. To get back to the point, I went back to see Mickey Schwerner and I said, now Mickey, they've already burned that church, that black Baptist church, out in Longdale. They put out the order. I had some informers for me too. I said, they put out order to the Klan to sentence you to death. They gonna kill you if you come back. So you stay the hell out of Neshoba County and if you want to live.BUFORD POSEY:
Oh, he smiled at me. He was a condescending guy. He was just about 20, 24 I
think it was, something like that. But he said, oh Mr. Poler. I understand how they feel. I said Mickey, it doesn't make a damn what you think about how they feel. I'm gonna tell you what they'll do. They'll kill you and anyone with you. And don't go up. You're committing suicide to go to Neshoba County because the sheriff is a Klansman, the deputy sheriff is and they got 39 auxiliary deputies, deputy sheriffs called auxiliary deputies. Every damn one of them is a Klan member. So Neshoba County is no place for you to be and James Chaney was there. He followed him around. He was with him. James Chaney was kind of like Johnny Frazier was to (inaudible 00:41:15). They was always together.BUFORD POSEY:
I said they sure will kill you. You and James Chaney here and he had a different
name and I said James Chaney you gonna get killed and any body you bring with you. I remember he told me he had a masters degree in sociology from some damn well-known college in New York. I thought I'd remember but I can't remember it right now. I will when you leave.BUFORD POSEY:
But anyway, and he understood these things. I said, well, I've got an old
bachelor's degree from Mississippi Southern College, that's USM right here, and I said that's just an old redneck university and college, but I know damn well I'm one of these rednecks and I know what they're gonna do.BUFORD POSEY:
Of course he paid me no attention and that other young feller, Andrew Goodman.
He arrived in Mississippi, hell, I don't guess he ever got unpacked. They sent him from Jackson, when he came from Ohio, but he was at University of Miami in Ohio. (inaudible 00:42:24) co-posted him on over there to help Mickey and he got there on a, I believe, that morning or the day before one. His first trip out from Meridian was to Neshoba County. Of course, they all three were killed just like I told them they would.BUFORD POSEY:
I'll never forget this. Even people like that, that I tried to explain to that
you had to be careful. They said, well hey you're alive, and I said well, yeah, but I'm mean as hell. I was a good shot and come from good, so-called, good family and I've got a reputation of being dangerous and by God that's I what I want. I want(inaudible 00:43:12) as much as I can. That's the only way I'm gonna stay alive is be more than dangerous than the damn Klan is. Cause they got me down too, I know.BUFORD POSEY:
What happened was, the night they was missing, see it was on a Sunday night.
I'll never forget that. It was June the 21st, 1964. I still do, I don't know so much, I go to bed at twelve o'clock no and I used to set up until 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning and read. I was bad to read and had a (inaudible 00:43:48) lamp on the desk. It doesn't have electric out there. Got it before I left. But anyway, just before. I read every night, current events and history and everything else.BUFORD POSEY:
That night I read til about 2 o'clock and I'd just gone to sleep and the damn
phone rang. And it was, somebody said, didn't give me a name. I told her I recognized her voice but anyway. Might have. Might not. I don't know I was so damn sleepy. Said we took care of 3 of your friends tonight. You're next. And hung up.BUFORD POSEY:
So I knew who it was. I said, that's the Klan and they've killed. They said they
took care of three of your civil rights friends tonight. I've said they've killed, I hope it wasn't old Schwerner and them. I told him to stay out, but I don't know. He didn't act like he was gonna do it.BUFORD POSEY:
So the next morning, the next phone call I got was right around 8 o'clock. I
guess 8 or 9 o'clock. From the (inaudible 00:45:11) office in Jackson. I think it was Mickey Schwerner's wife. I'm not sure of that or some woman, said Mickey and Andy and James Chaney to Neshoba County yesterday and we haven't seen them and we gave them your name and address and told them to look you up in case they got in trouble. I said, I haven't seen them, but I'll tell you where they're at. They're dead.BUFORD POSEY:
And the woman said oh, no no. Don't talk that way Mr. Poser. Don't talk that
way. I said I'm not talking that way, I'm telling you the truth. Soon as this person hung up I called the FBI office in Jackson. Hell they didn't even have an office there, just had a phone number that transferred my call to a number in New Orleans. So I called the New Orleans office of the FBI and told them, it was 9 or 10 o'clock before I got ahold of them. And so I called and talked to the man there. They said he was the agent in charge. Hell, there didn't seem to be many of them there. I think just 3 down there I learned later.BUFORD POSEY:
He took information but he was very skeptical. I could tell. I said well, you
can sit on your butt til you ordered out of Washington. Somebody's gonna start raising hell cause they'll see 3 bodies up here in Neshoba County. They was stick people I think.BUFORD POSEY:
(inaudible 00:46:45) or something, ah, we've heard reports like that before or
something. I said, well you better remember this one because this one, this is not a report. This is a fact. I'm delivering you a fact so I was kind of belligerent by then myself.BUFORD POSEY:
Tuesday morning around until 11 o'clock, the guy from, well they said he was, he
showed up at my home. He said, we've been ordered to investigate. I said, yeah, I know. You're a little late, but anyway, so by that time I knew who had been killed. I told them. They said well that's the report we got but we were just told to make courtesy call on you. Some kind of shit. I said, well I don't give a damn about the courtesy part or anything like that but you got some killers to look at and they're the Ku Klux Klan members, the White Nights and Ku Klux Klan. I said they come out of (inaudible 00:47:47) is where they found it at and told them they got a name down there.BUFORD POSEY:
It was a local big wheel here. A would-be preacher named Edgar Ray Killen and I
know him. He's captain of the damn bunch (inaudible 00:48:07). So from there, I don't know, a few days later somebody from NBC Huntley Brinkler Report. I forgot his damn name. He worked for them at the time. He showed up a with a camera crew and said, would you quote what you've told the FBI. I said, yeah. So I was sitting on the front porch. I repeated. I said, you wait til I get out. I'm leaving the county. I said hell, I know what it comes out. I'm a dead man cause they gonna over come their inhibitions and hell's gonna pop loose.BUFORD POSEY:
So I knew they wouldn't bother my daddy cause he was the oldest living mason in
the county and a lot of folks don't, of course, I may get in trouble to you guys talking, but the truth of it is the Masonic's Lodge wouldn't. A lot of them sympathized with the Klan. So they said that my daddy was the oldest living member. See he had been a member longer than anyone in the county for probably about almost 60 years. They said 54 years at that time. Something like that, 55. So they sent somebody out there to see him. I knew that I recognized the guy. He was a masonic man.BUFORD POSEY:
So when he left, I left and got out of the house and let him talk to my daddy
and so when he left my daddy told us that, You're about to leave. He said, they gonna kill you. I'm sure that he said they gonna kill you. I said, yeah, they may kill you and my pa said, see well they're not gonna bother me. That young masonic brother, he didn't want to tell me, they told you if I would leave they'd guarantee your safety. Right? He said well, you've got it figured right. They did guarantee his safety. The Masonic Lodge did and I left.BUFORD POSEY:
I'll never forget. I had a few friends left and one of them was Buddy Conn. H C
Buddy Conn, C-O-N-N. He owned a service station. A little store, small store, knick knacks and just a few groceries. And so I waited. His was home was adjoined to it. He had a house, Buddy and them. And so on the morning of the, I forgot what the exact date was, anyway. I think it was, yeah, the last day in June. June the 30th. I hid out behind this with my car. I had two friends with me behind his service station and the Sheriff Ron Randy had beat up his wife and put her in the hospital in Meridian. He always visited every Monday morning. I remember it was a Monday. But whatever day it was, he had visited her and he had passed there. But he kind of noticed. He leaved there by about 10 o'clock so I waited. When he got there. I got right in behind him.BUFORD POSEY:
And I, of course, I was heavily armed and the two guys with me were some. We
knew if he saw us we was just gonna kill him and get it over with. Keep going. He didn't see us and right behind us, somebody got a hold of the FBI, I know they were mad about it, they were right behind me, the FBI was. I didn't know they was there but I looked back and I could tell that was them back there behind me.BUFORD POSEY:
(inaudible 00:52:06) to Meridian we'd have to kill eachother. So they'd have
been glad they got rid of me (inaudible 00:52:12) because I was a thorn in his side.INTERVIEWER:
So now where did you go?
BUFORD POSEY:
Well, went, of course, to Meridian. Went through Meridian then on into Alabama
and got over there. I tell you something funny happened. Stopped at a service station in Alabama. We was running low on gasoline. Well I had to go through Birmingham. That had all these bypasses. So I burned a lot of gas. So I stopped there to fill up. Just as I filled up the tank, I looked and there was a Klan sign on the service station showing that, you could see it from the glass case, showing that they were a member of the Ku Klux Klan. And they my tag was Neshoba County and they thought I was running from the FBI so they gave me that tank of gas. That was in Alabama.BUFORD POSEY:
Went on that night. Spent that night at in tourist's court. I believe it was
near Chattanooga. And the next day I went on to Highland Center in Knoxville, Tennessee. 1525 Riverside Drive. Friend of mine, Miles Horton, and Amy, his wife at the time. His first wife had died. He remarried. They were there. They were good friends of mine. I'd been up and visited before so I stayed there a while. And then I went over to North Carolina to my friend Dr. Cannon, Gaine Cannon's home. He called me and said you better get on over here because the newspaper found out I was there and they come out and interviewed him. But he said, your friends in trouble there in Tennessee. Knoxville wasn't a great, it was better than Mississippi, but it wasn't a great bastion of liberal anarchy.BUFORD POSEY:
Had one newspaper there, they called it a liberal newspaper. It wasn't, but it
was a (inaudible 00:54:20) newspaper I think and then you had another paper that was straight out right-wing group called the Knoxville Journal. I left there then and went on over to stay with Dr. Cannon about a year I guess.INTERVIEWER:
Now I understand that you played a role in helping solve the mystery of what
happened to Goodman, Chaney and Schwerner. Is that right?BUFORD POSEY:
Well, yeah. I had a little role in that, but I don't talk about it too much
because somebody else, maybe, causing problems at this late date. (inaudible 00:55:08) hell they all dead (inaudible 00:55:15).INTERVIEWER:
(inaudible 00:55:20)
BUFORD POSEY:
So what happened I cleaned the engine pressing shop they call it and fiddled
there with the dry cleaners they call it.INTERVIEWER:
What was the lane? Wolverton?
BUFORD POSEY:
Wolverton.
INTERVIEWER:
Wolverton.
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah. (inaudible 00:55:31), he was an alcoholic and of course he's dead. Now I
wouldn't tell it because he denied it and I don't blame him later. He had a friend who was also an alcoholic and I'm trying to think of the guy's name. Anyway, he lived with his widowed mother over there near where they were buried, you know that dam. That night, this guy was a veteran, World War II veteran of course. So he had gone home and his mother wouldn't let him in cause he was drunk. So he staggered off down there. He knew about the dam and he went down there and went to sleep. I'm trying, to be honest with you, I can't think of his name. I used to know it. But the first time I had heard his name Hugh Wilbers had told it to me. What happen was he went to sleep and late that night they woke him up but he was preaching how Edgar Ray Killen was preaching their funeral. You know the Klan man. He was out there preaching the damn funeral.BUFORD POSEY:
Well, I don't know. 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning
BUFORD POSEY:
And this guy woke up. He thought he had died and gone to heaven or hell or
somewhere. He didn't think about that this just couldn't be true. He took off. He said, I'm having hallucinations. So he took off to Philadelphia. He got there early though before this guy opened up his dry cleaners. He always opened it up. And he went to sleep. Hugh came along, woke him up. He said, Hugh, I (inaudible 00:57:22) at the VA Hospital, that alcoholic ward in Jackson. He said, I'm seeing hallucinations. He told him what all he saw. He said, you know I'm losing my damn mind. He said, I saw a funeral being preached out there at a dam. Told him where it was at and all and told him who was preaching. He said, you are crazy. Said, (inaudible 00:57:48). So he put him in the car and carried him to the veterans hospital in Jackson.BUFORD POSEY:
Hugh told me about and I told the FBI but they went out there to talk to the guy
and he told them exactly what he told Hugh (inaudible 00:58:02). But the FBI didn't like me. See, being the first member of the NAACP and friendly with Norman Thomas didn't make me exactly popular with the FBI. Took what the fellers told them, that the VA doctor out there, the psychiatrist, interviewed this guy and all and he said to the FBI, said, this seems like this is not a nightmare. It's something he actually saw.BUFORD POSEY:
Anyway, they got it down and then.
INTERVIEWER:
Could we just stop one second? We need to change ...
SPEAKER 3:
We need to change ...
BUFORD POSEY:
FBI you know listened to the guy and of course the cops just told me the
background and all. They didn't give me- they said you know my names involved and they said (inaudible 00:00:18). You know we don't believe him so. They still- they put out a rumor. The FBI they put out wanted posters for these three boys you know? Saying have you seen em'? Scattered them all over the south here. See the clan put out the rumor that they'd fled to Cuba. So the FBI made it like they believed it and they was off hunting in Cuba. Anyway though, this guy told me, it started clicking you see the names and everything and so finally- I know what happened the FBI they put the squeeze on a guy they knew that would know, you see? A guy that really knew had married a cousin of mine. Highway patrol. He did so I won't mention his name but anyway- God I can't even think of his name now- Wiggs, Harry Wiggs was his name- was the supervisor of the highway patrol at that time up there was- he knew about it you see but, he didn't tell anybody you see he was scared to death.BUFORD POSEY:
He wanted to stay alive put it that way but, he did tell his supervisor he found
a Keen. Oh hell, he was supervisor of highway patrol for that district Maynard Keen for many years. He- what is that? Thunder?SPEAKER 2:
Thunder.
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah. He told Maynard Keen about it you know. So, the FBI knew Maynard Keen
would know see they realized he knew every damn thing going on in the county because, he had his own- information for his own purposes.SPEAKER 3:
Uh sir-
BUFORD POSEY:
He just liked to be well informed, and the highway patrol guys they need to
square up with him but, I knew another guy who was over his boss in Jackson named Charles (inaudible 00:02:23). So anyway and I had a cousin who was in charge of drivers licenses in the state of Mississippi, the highway patrol. So, I had a little info on things myself.BUFORD POSEY:
So anyway it turned out that they realized that this old Blunt guy told the
truth but they couldn't afford to you know give him credit so they squeezed Maynard Keen and he agreed that that guy told the truth so that's who got the credit about it Maynard Keen supervisor of the highway patrol.SPEAKER 3:
Oh really?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah. Now that's in the FBI records.
SPEAKER 2:
Okay. Now you- you said you were away from Mississippi for like a year?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah.
SPEAKER 2:
You were just-?
BUFORD POSEY:
Well I wasn't around- well bout' a year I guess. You ready.
SPEAKER 2:
Yeah.
BUFORD POSEY:
So, I was out of Mississippi quite a while. I came back- you talking bout that
funny thing that happened? Well, one night a friend of mine- well he was a friend you know- but of course he was a good friend of mine- but, he was a coward too. You know? Lotta cowards around so, most people are but anyway, he had a little old house so he let me live in it a while. See I waited- I had the sense enough to wait till Lawrence Rainey's term as sheriff expired. No use in going back and committing suicide see? Not with 39 clan deputies and Cecil Price still there. Well, by the way something Cecil Price I could tell you about you're probably not well on- he made two trips I know, maybe three, after all this was over with when he got down broke and all and begged forgiveness from the Chaney and the Schwerner family.SPEAKER 2:
Cecil Price did?
BUFORD POSEY:
Yeah but see it got out. What he didn't realize, see he had got caught. They
gave him- we'll finish this up, well I'll finish mine up and then I'll get back to this in a minute.SPEAKER 2:
Okay that's fine.
BUFORD POSEY:
So, I went back to Neshoba County after- Neshoba County is kind of funny they
elected a former clansman as Sheriff. E.G. "Hop" Barnett but he wasn't really a violent guy he just wanted to beat people up.BUFORD POSEY:
So he was sheriff when I went back I knew Hop- I knew his wife real well. We
were in elementary school together. She always liked me cause' (inaudible 00:05:17)- there was four of those little Singleton girls and boys that pulled the hair and beat em' you know and messed with him you know cause he didn't have a brother.BUFORD POSEY:
Well I was always- picked up the little guy. So I got and put him under my
protection. I was a good fighter even when I was in Elementary School. I whip your boys butt in school- challenge em'.BUFORD POSEY:
So I put him under my protection so that's funny. Didn't get paid a nickel
either but anyway I never did look for money- so, her husband was sheriff and she sent me word. She said I wanna- tell Beaufort I wanna see him. So I went up there and she was working in the office with her dad- her husbands office she said Beaufort come here I wanna talk to you.BUFORD POSEY:
