INTERVIEW WITH SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yes, certainly. My name is Sydney Waller-Foxworth, and I was born in Brooklyn,
New York, at the Brooklyn Jewish Hospital, on July 14th, 1938.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
What else was that?
MATTHEW BARR:
Well, I think that covers it. Talk a little bit about what it was like growing
up. You grew up in a Jewish household. Talk about your parents a little bit, and siblings. Just to give us a little sense of that.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. I had a happy childhood. My parents were both very affirming to me. I have
one brother. My only sibling is a brother who's three years younger, who lives in New Jersey. He's a wonderful person. My parents too. My father was a businessman. He had an imprinting business and employed about, I guess, maybe 30 or 40 people at the time, in New York City, in downtown, in the business district in New York city.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Grew up in Brooklyn. My parents were both Jewish. Everybody we knew going back
to our ancestors and our relatives, everyone we knew of had been Jewish. And that was before the reform movement. My parents were conservative. They were not Hasidic Jews. They were conservative. That was the nomenclature at the time. Mainly going to the synagogue on High Holy Days, but also following many of the rituals of Jewish life. My mother kept a kosher household and I heard a lot of Yiddish spoken when I was growing up. I never really learned or tried to speak it myself, but I got to understand it pretty well, because usually, it was the forbidden topics that were spoken, when children were around, in Yiddish. So I got to understand Yiddish, and then I learned German in college, and I think that I was very good in German because I already had some of the basics.MATTHEW BARR:
All right, so you grew up in Brooklyn and...
MATTHEW BARR:
Now, I went through your amazing book the last couple of days to kind of frame
my questions. So you went through high school in Brooklyn and then you went to college and then ultimately did a PhD. Talk a little bit about what led to all of that, to the academic thing.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I just was more interested in reading and learning than I was in going out on
dates. I mean, one of the few quibbles my mother had with me was I wasn't wearing enough makeup and going out on dates enough. I'd rather sit home and listen to classical music or read a book. I just was interested. And when I graduated college, that was Brooklyn College, I had honors in philosophy, I had majored in philosophy, and the career that I saw open to me was to be teaching philosophy. There aren't too many occupations where companies hire a philosopher.MATTHEW BARR:
That's true.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
At least my father didn't quite get it. And when I graduated, he asked me, well,
now that I've graduated from college, when was I going to go down to New York and try to get a job as a secretary or whatever kind of job I could get in the business world? Because he didn't grasp that that was not my thing, that I was going to go on, and I did, continued going to school. And at that point in history, you could get a graduate education for almost no money. You didn't have to put yourself in hock for the rest of your life just to get an education. I mean, certainly, we're capable of doing that again, going back to the future, back to letting people get a higher education without paying an arm and a leg.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So I went to Columbia University for my PhD in Philosophy of Science. I thought
that the most impressive person in the philosophy department at the time was Ernest Nagel. And that was Philosophy of Science. So I studied with him, and I defended my dissertation and I got that, but that took a few years. In between, I was living in Europe for a couple of years. My daughter was born there in 1965. My husband at the time, Carl Goldstein, I believe he's retired now, he was an art professor at UNCG. We were divorced a long time ago.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
(inaudible) talking about the postgraduate stuff. Yeah, in 69, I defended the
dissertation, got the degree, went into teaching. I had a job at the Southeastern Massachusetts Technological Institute, which today is, SMTI is the old designation, later it changed to Southeastern Massachusetts University, not to be confused with the other SMU out West. So I taught there for four years.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
It was the radicalizing times that I write about in the book that, all of a
sudden, everything in the society was open to examination, to questioning it, to changing it. That's the cultural period, and when you're young, it just seems like everything can be done so quickly. You know, it seems like, "Well, okay, we've got this now. So in about five years, we'll have ... " Whatever, "We'll have socialism, or we'll have ... " Whatever.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
When you're in the struggle for a long time, then you have a different sense
about time. Not only that things will take longer, that you're really trying to reverse eons of (crosstalk 00:11:34).SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah, you know, you just have a different sense of it, but also you're more
aware of how the conditions today, how things are going to look tomorrow. You have a better sense of the cause and effect in our social and economic life. So it's much more realistic, but it's not unrealistic to have ideals and to hang on to them and work for them. In fact, that is the most practical, realistic thing you can do.MATTHEW BARR:
Okay. So let me just see if I have these dates. So you received your PhD in
1969, is that right?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah, in 69. I had started working on it when I graduated in 1960, but then
from, I don't know, 60 to (inaudible) No. I went to Europe twice. Once, I had a grant to go to Europe and study. It was the Deutscher Akademischer Austauschdienst German government grant. Like a Fulbright, the German equivalent of a Fulbright. But then we came back to New York and then we went to stay in France and lived there for two years. That's where my daughter was born. So I was back and forth writing. I actually started writing a different dissertation, which was more in metaphysics than science, or history of philosophy. I was writing a dissertation about Kant and Husserl. And then I decided I wanted to do something that was more grounded. I wanted to do something in philosophy of science. So I did one and a half dissertations, but I did the one philosophy of science.MATTHEW BARR:
Well, you're a glutton for punishment. I mean, I'm an academic, but I'm a
different type. I don't have a PhD, I have an MFA in film. But obviously, I'm in academia, being at the university, so I'm working with a lot of academics, including our good friends, Spoma and other folks.MATTHEW BARR:
I want to get back to ... When was it in that period that you began to get your
politics? When did you start to become politically active? I mean, if you had your PhD in 69, of course, the Vietnam War was at its height in 68, 69. And so talk about that a little bit. What started ... ? I assume your parents were liberal leaning? Or Democrats, of course, but-SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Roosevelt Democrats. Roosevelt Democrats. I remember people weeping in the
street when Roosevelt died. You know, I can remember people just really being broken up about that.MATTHEW BARR:
Yeah. I wish we had somebody like him around now. Well, anyway, so when did you
start to become political? Or how do you want to put that? Or active? We'll talk about that.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. Let me say that the last two days, thinking about doing this interview, I
sat down to write a little piece so that I could get my thoughts together about it, called, "Reflections on my life as a political.New Speaker:
activist." And I'll be very glad to send that to you because there are dates in
there and it's something you could refer to for information to back up what I do orally. I'm really more confident about my ability to write than to speak.MATTHEW BARR:
Well, you're a very good speaker, but do you want to read it? I mean, I don't
know how long it is.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
It's terrible, when I read things ... I re-read it to just remind myself of what
I wanted to be sure to include, but I will, after our interview, send you an attachment with this eight page thing, because it might be helpful when you're sorting things out with this video.MATTHEW BARR:
Okay. But back to the activism.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. I mean, very late in life, and again, this is in my book too. Later in
life. I was beyond 30 when I really started getting political. I was not the person who, in high school, is out there marching and waving a flag, not even in college. I'm married, have two small children, still not political.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
The thing, and I always remember this because it really was a turning point for
me, when I was in Paris in 1965, and my daughter had just been born in August of 65, the US involvement was really gaining a lot of momentum during that period. I think that was just after the US had become more involved in kind of taking over for the French and colonized Vietnam. We would look at the ... Was it the Herald Tribune? There was an edition of the Tribune that was outside of the United States, the foreign edition that we would look at. There was a picture in the paper about a road in Vietnam that had been mined and it killed a lot of people rushing past, but a woman was on the ground and she had been hurt, and her dead infant was in her arms. And the label identified that they had been on this mined road, she's got an infant in her arms, and this mining of the road and the bombardment, she had been escaping the village being bombed. And because I had just had my first child, I felt, "There but for the grace of God go I." I just empathetically felt that it could be me. "I could be this woman. How would I feel if I'm trying to escape to safety and we're mined on the road and my child is dead, lying in my arms?"SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
And that set me against the Vietnam War, but I didn't understand any of the
politics of it. In fact, at that time, it was pretty unusual in the first place for a woman to get a doctorate in philosophy. When I would go early to the American Philosophical Association meetings, almost all men. I mean, very few women. Now, thank heavens, it's a little bit different now. It's going to continue to be different. But that was not an occupation that women did readily, you know? First thing they thought of doing, being a philosopher. I studied playing the drums when I was a teenager. And a female drummer was also kind of a novelty.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So I was thinking that I didn't really understand politics and it was okay for
my husband to have an opinion, but I really didn't have to bother with that. And when I first taught at Southeastern Massachusetts, I asked some of the women, "What do you do?" Thinking they must have careers aside from they're married and have a family, you know? And one woman answered me with a little bit of contempt, saying, "It's our husbands who do the doing. Women don't."MATTHEW BARR:
And these are academic. That's funny.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. I just assumed that these women would have their own thing that they were
doing. But a woman having her own thing, her own interest, her own political views, her own political views or anything, that's ... I'm old enough to remember when that was not au courant.MATTHEW BARR:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, you were ahead of your time. Of course, looking back at those
days, because I was around myself, of course, in Berkeley, where I grew up. A great place to grow up, politically.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Berkeley? Wow.
MATTHEW BARR:
Yeah, yeah. But the war was going on and there was obviously a very strong
antiwar movement. So from the book, I remember what you said, that when you came back from Paris, then did you start going to marches? Did you start marching?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Mm-hmm (affirmative).
MATTHEW BARR:
Talk about that a little bit, about that period for you.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yes. Well, after I had this, I guess you could call it an epiphany that this
little country, I haven't seen them invading our country, I haven't seen them hurting us, and why are we doing this? I started reading about imperialism, that it wasn't just a mistake, but it was an entrenched policy and what was behind it and connected to it. I'm addressing all of that. I do address it in the book and I do address it in this paper I wrote. So I started getting a little less naive. And we returned to the United States when my daughter was only about four or five months old. She was still an infant when we returned. And already there was an antiwar movement that was growing and there were people who were out there organizing it. I didn't get out there and organize anything. I was concerned about getting a job, raising my family.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So, yes. My husband at the time, Dr. Goldstein, and I would go to some marches,
but I would go as a supporter, as a participant, and just be there, you know, stand up and be counted. That was my standard then. "I'm against this war. It's unnecessary", and so forth.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So then I started teaching. I was teaching ... I don't know when. You can get
the dates from the book. But anyway, I did, through my study, become more radicalized, but also through doing it, mainly through doing it, the being there. Because I was at some events where there were mounted police charging with their horses, charging into a crowd, and it was pretty ugly. So just being there, observing that, and then studying about it.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
And then I participated in an event that ... Was that the time I got ... ? I was
arrested. Yeah. Okay. Right before we moved to Greensboro, which was in 1971 ... And at that time, I was employed by Southeastern Massachusetts University. That was the last year though, because I had given notice. My husband got the job at UNCG in the art department, and so we were about to move and we had two children then, my son was born in 1968. So in 71, we moved to here. And because of my participation and my being arrested, which was a really wonderful, lively experience ... I mean, for the 12 or so hours we were there, you had all these people crowded in the cell and we had a constant stream of noise going of just pounding on the cell bars and singing and yelling. It was very impressive. So I decided, "I'm against this war and I'm going to do something about it." So in 71, right after I moved here, I founded this little organization called the Greensboro Peace Center, where I came here and I saw that there already was a vigil of people standing in front of the courthouse once a week with signs protesting the Vietnam War. So I joined that vigil and opened up this little storefront thing downtown someplace. I think it was on Elm Street. Actually, there were a few different places. We would rent the place and then they'd find out what we were you doing, we were protesting the war, and so we'd be thrown out. Usually we made material renovations to the property. We would clean it up and take care of the plumbing and the floor and everything, really make it much better. And then they'd kick us out and we'd move to another place. We did that a few times.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
And it was an educational thing. There was a wonderful slideshow that had been
prepared, with the technology of the slideshow that people don't use very much anymore, they do it with computers, prepared by the Quakers. What is the name of the main Quaker organization?MATTHEW BARR:
Friends?... It doesn't matter.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Well, anyway, it was "The Automated Air War" was the name of the slideshow. Very
incredible, showing how the war was being conducted, which, if you have an image of war, soldiers advancing, but then by this time, there was napalm and there was automated warfare, which was kind of like a pinball machine, you just press the button. You don't get close up in contact with who you're killing. You don't even know who you're fighting. So the nature of the war and the fact that there was no real rationale, real justification for the war, we did educational things at that Greensboro Peace Center.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
And I was studying. Meanwhile, I decided I'd better get educated about politics.
So I was doing a lot of reading. And eventually, I gravitated to ... The new people in town was the Workers' Viewpoint Organization. I'm trying to remember exactly the initial moment, but I don't know. But anyway, by the mid 70s, I was working with Workers' Viewpoint Organization.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
But pretty early on, right after I opened up the Peace Center ... Actually not
right after, but sometime afterward. I wasn't here in 68 and 69 when all the stuff came down at the A&T campus, but in 1971, at a program we were having, an educational program at the Greensboro Peace Center, we decided we were ... This is by 71. We're getting out of the war now. US is getting out of the war in Vietnam. One of the people who came to the educational program was a man named Nelson Johnson. He had several people with him. I had not been here in 69 when the whole thing went down at A&T, but at the Peace Center, after the US did a peace treaty, some of the people in the Peace Center thought, "Okay, that's our goal. We can retire now." And others said, "No, there's a lot of things we have to address in this country. Now that we've cleaned up the mess there, we're on our way to cleaning it up. We have got to deal with the problems here, the racism here, and the economic problems here with workers, everything."SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So a core of people stayed with it, and we started changing the programs to
dealing with not just American foreign policy, but domestic policy. And that was when Nelson came, because there had been political prisoners taken here, the Wilmington Ten, the Charlotte Three. And he walked in, he made an incredible impression on me that day. The first time I met him, in 71. Because there was a flash of victory in his face, a dedication to justice, and a flash of, "We will fight. We will be victorious." There was something about him that I just knew he was an incredible person. I think we were talking about the Charlotte Three at the time, one of the cases.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So then soon afterwards, I met his wife, Joyce, and they were working on an
anti-death penalty project because of the racial disparities, but also, again, the death penalty in general. I definitely (inaudible) to buy into that. So I worked with them on the anti-death penalty project, got to know them. And then when Workers' Viewpoint came, I already was friends with them. They had two small children too.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So I was really politicized here by being arrested, by participating in
demonstrations, by reading and studying.MATTHEW BARR:
Okay.
MATTHEW BARR:
So of course now, Reverend Nelson Johnson and his wife, Joyce, did they have the
Beloved Community Center, or was he at a church at that point?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
No, he wasn't even a Reverend then. He went to Virginia Theological Seminary,
whatever it is called in Virginia, after the settlement, the civil rights settlement. That was after 1985. So he was not a minister until sometime between 85 and 90. I don't know the exact year. And the Beloved Community Center, I think it's only 30 years old. Back then, he had been in the Air Force. He also was in the Air Force. And he was political. He was also elected to positions at A&T. I think he was ... I don't know what, something in the student union, whether it was vice president or something. But he was an active organizer in the community when he was a student at A&T, and he was a student at A&T after he got out of the Air Force. That's his background. Not becoming a minister until almost 1990.MATTHEW BARR:
Gotcha. Of course, looking back, a lot of people don't know how active A&T was
back in those days. Obviously, he went back to the Woolworths in 60, 61, the sit-in, but then later on, there were all kinds of things that happened there.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. Actually, you're right. It's not very much known and even less
appreciated, but actually, Greensboro had become, around the time that Workers' Viewpoint was having an influence here, Greensboro had become the center of black power and the black liberation movement in the country. There was the Malcolm X Liberation University that had been started in Durham. When they saw what was going on in Greensboro, this was way before the Greensboro massacre, they changed the location, and Malcolm X Liberation University was in Greensboro.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So that history is (inaudible) from Nelson, from Reverend Johnson. And actually,
we are trying to promote the continuity of all of this history, because starting with, I think you mentioned the sit-ins in 1960, even that does not have to be taken as a starting point, because if you talked to Lewis Brandon, who was also associated with Beloved Community Center, he will tell you about the acts of resistance in the black community in the 1950s. So by 1960, though, it's getting widespread. The whole country is doing what the lady who occupied the front seat in the bus ... Actually, Nelson himself, and his friend, did a version of that that didn't go down in the history books.PART 1 OF 4 ENDS (00:33:04)
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
And that didn't go down in the history books, but they did that too. And Nelson
was a punched by a cop. That was part of his formation of becoming an activist. But when he took the seat at the part of the business he should not have been sitting in, a police officer came over - I think it was the police officer. Go to him. I don't want to say the wrong thing. Punched him.. Just like that. So he and his friend got up and moved to the back of the bus. You know what I mean? People are having these experiences and some of them get recorded as being the essence of the thing, which is proper. That's how it has to be. But a lot of people are having those experiences.MATTHEW BARR:
Okay. So, your then husband got the job in the art department, UNCG in '71. You
moved here. I just want to go back briefly to the Peace Center. Now you're saying that the Peace Center, you found some kindred spirits who became part of ... talk about that a little bit. Talk about some of the people that became involved and what you all did and how you try to form a community. I think, talk about that a little bit.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Well the group at Peace Center, one person, I remember was Hall Partridge,
Reverend Hall Partridge. He and his wife, Charlotte. I think they were regulars standing on that vigil. Another person who was active in the Peace Center was Professor Andy Martin in the Art department. I believe he is deceased now. But he was a colleague of my husband in the Art Department at UNCG. I'm trying to think who the other people. There was a woman named Marilyn. Can't remember her last name. Oh, Kay Traxler, the Traxler family. (inaudible) Those are the people I remember, but there was a regular crew out there. And then I joined and I was doing that too. But the Peace Center, who else was involved with that besides me and Andy Martin? I'm drawing a blank on that now.MATTHEW BARR:
That's fine. I was just trying to get the feeling of this one thing. Well, I
teach UNCG students and we show films that are political. And I try to describe that I had been in many marches as a demonstrator over the years. At San Francisco State, where I went to college, there was a big thing about ... but how enjoyable the camaraderie is is in being a part of something. Not just marching, but organizing and looking back on those days. I like to get back into it, as you became more political in the seventies, once you were here in Greensboro. Then can you talk a little bit about, okay, you met the Johnsons and became involved with them and other people who were a part of the movement. What were some of the struggles you guys engage in? And then if you could kind of segue into talking about how you became a part of this organization? I have it written down here, what was it? The RWL or there are two different-SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Oh, Revolutionary Workers League?
MATTHEW BARR:
Yeah. Can you talk about some of the different political things that you were
doing in the early seventies period?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. When I started getting to know the Johnsons slightly, there was a campaign
Barbara Kamara and her husband, Moses, I think was his name. She was running for, I don't know whether the city council or some position. It was a local campaign. I became active in that. So that was the first time I had done anything like that, a political campaign, local campaign. I think Louis Brandon was also a main part of that.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So I was starting to ... on the race issue. I didn't really become anything like
aware about it until I moved to the South, even though it existed in the North too. And I had experienced as a child where I wasn't encouraged to play with the black kids, whose father was a superintendent of the apartment building, where I grew up in Brooklyn. He lived in the basement of the building, and he's a superintendent. So he was the handyman and that kind of thing. And his children and I had were playing in the street and I could feel I'm not supposed to be playing with those kids.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Later on, when I was of college age or a teenager going I was invited to a
social event that was going to be mainly black people. I got a message from my own family, kind of very subtle message about, that's not really what you want to do. Then in high school, I had a friend who loved classical music who was black, and I didn't feel comfortable inviting her over, becoming friends with her. I mean there were these unspoken barriers and I was aware of them. And then I did a paper on the citizens councils for social studies when I was in elementary school or high school. So I'm aware of that. And all of the subtle messages that you get about how you don't socialize, or you separate yourself from, or you're better than. The separation, the racial separations.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So when I came here, actually I taught at Bennett College for two years after we
first moved here. I got out of that. At the point I got out of that, I was already wanting to be a full time political activist. I wanted to not just interpret the world or teach people how to interpret the world, but to change the world. So at Bennett, I had a couple of experiences that were just kind of visceral. One thing was gone to the faculty meeting before the start of the semester. There were two or three white people I can see in this whole big audience. So I'm the minority here. I'm just a white face in a sea of black faces. I certainly hadn't ever had that experience before that. So there was that.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Then during the Black Power period, I was teaching at Bennett and I had a
student, a very, very bright student, who was actually interested in philosophy because most students had to take philosophy there. And she actually was intelligent and interested. She and I started becoming friends. And then one day she announced to me, I can't be your friend because she was going through the Black Power thing. You're white, I'm black. I can't be your friend.MATTHEW BARR:
I think you mentioned that in the book. Of course, it's hard for people now to
look back that there was also the period of the Black Panther party. They were fairly strong over here in Winston and of course, in Oakland and across the country and all the shootings and all that. Amazing.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah, they aren't famous for what they did mostly, which was give kids breakfast
and educate the community, help the community, educate people. Yeah. We had a lot of help from Larry Little who then became a part of the government of Winston Salem, maybe still is. I don't know. But particularly right after the murders on November 3rd, I mean, he was there talking to us about COINTELPRO, bringing in all of his files about what COINTELPRO did to the black liberation movement then. He was a real friend and ally.MATTHEW BARR:
Sorry to interrupt. Let's back up a little bit. So you made a decision that you
didn't want it to talk about activism. You wanted to be an activist full on. One of the many amazing things about your book is how you interlace the personal with the political and then ultimately that led to problems with your first marriage in terms of your husband not wanting to be as political. Would you say that was true? If you don't want to talk about it, it's no problem. But I'm just trying to see, because obviously when you're political on a level that you've been political, you pay a price on a lot of different levels in terms of, for example, police started to become aware of you and what you're doing. And of course the Ku Klux Klan. But I'm not doing a very good questioning job here. But I just want to get back to how you became more and more political, more involved with this group. So maybe you start there. The RWL.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Oh, well the RWL, there's the Revolutionary Workers League. And there weren't
any whites in that organization. It was black. And I actually, I think I filled out an application, I wanted to join, which never came to anything. But (inaudible) was affiliated with that. Was kind of one of the stars of that. Also Nelson, the Johnson's, were part of that. And other people, maybe Sandy, maybe Checacia 00:43:50) anyway, Frankie Powell that is.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
There were two national, there were many organizations that were trying to
revive communism, but make it something that could be more adapted to American culture. And one was the Worker's Viewpoint Organization that became the Communist Workers' Party. Same organization, same people. And the other, even bigger, with more members was the Revolutionary Union, which still exists. Talk to Tim Hopkins. You should interview him.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
He's a good one too. We were rivals at the time. We were bogged down by that
sectarian thing about you have the best line, so you don't talk with them. They don't have a good line. That was one of the criticisms I made there of that period, the sectarianism. I think it's a lot better now than it was then.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Anyway, we were smallish compared to the Revolutionary Union. The RWL the
Revolutionary Worker's League, I'm trying to think now. I think I may have conflated the organization that Awusa was part of that was solely black activists. It was revolutionary and league were in the thing. But anyway, that would be in my book. Okay. And the other national organization, that was a multi- racial, like the Worker's Viewpoint was the Revolutionary Union, which housed the revolutionary communist party.MATTHEW BARR:
So you became a member of-
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Worker's Viewpoint. Yeah. But you know what? I didn't become a member right
away. I was too bourgeois for them too. My father was a businessman. He employed people so well, they accepted me as an activist. I worked. I did everything, almost everything everybody else did, so I would be accepted as a member. When I was sworn in as a bonafide member of Worker's Viewpoint Organization was shortly before November 3rd, '79. That was September 16th.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Remember before the November. And Jim Waller who was killed, in a couple of
months was one of my sponsors and Bill Sampson, who also was killed, was my other sponsor. And I remember my husband Jim speaking for me and saying, I have three things to say about this woman. She was good at learning. She is good at learning. And she is good at learning. Actually, that's the nicest thing anybody has ever said about me because I really do love to learn and to be open to things.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
And Bill Sampson asked me how I saw socialist revolution happening in the United
States. That was his question when I was inducted into the Worker's Viewpoint Organization. And I gave him kind of a credible answer. It was a very hard question. If you're asking now, how is the United States going to escape becoming fully fascist? Go on to have a socialist revolution, democratic socialism, or whatever you want to call it. Ask me now how that's going to happen? I think it's going to happen or I'm hoping it will happen. I think it's one of the likely things to happen. I couldn't tell you how that's going to happen. Can you tell me how anything's going to happen in two months from now or two years from now? You have to answer by saying what there is right now and there's tremendous movement right now toward making fundamental changes. I was inducted into the party. And then on November 3rd, around that time, there was a national convention right before we had the anti-Klan rally here because that was something nobody put us up to. Our chapter here got that whole thing going. That was not planned or orchestrated from New York. It was here.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So in September and October, there were meetings. I was not in the leadership. I
was in now a member of the Worker's Viewpoint organization, but I didn't do any leadership position. My husband, Jim Waller, did have a leadership position in this area in North Carolina. And at the national convention, he was elected to be on the Central Committee, which was a very big deal. This is a national organization. And the name was changed from the Worker's Viewpoint to the Communist Workers' Party.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So that all happened in October, right before November 3, '79. It becomes the
Communist Workers' Party. And it became that because the goal was always to build a party, a working class party. So it's a more ambitious scenario of how you're going to grow your party in a public way, but it's the same organization. And we never denied that we believed in Marxism and were communists. We never denied that. We never tried to say, Oh no, we're not that. And the anti-communism was still so strong, even today, because people don't even think about what they're saying or know what they're saying is true. They have no ideas that they haven't lifted up from somewhere and never tested or asked any questions about.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
But we were communists, we were avowed communist, but we were critical of the
Soviet Union. We were admiring of the Revolution in China. I'm telling you what we were at that point. This doesn't imply views now are what they were then. But worldwide, we were not some kind of crazy group of people. What was happening worldwide was very, akin and related to what we were going through.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
The revolution in Nicaragua, for example, that was happening right before
November 3rd. We were watching colonial places say we want to be independent nations nations now. So, the whole context is so important. It's so important, particularly in an age when everything is going global, economics, communication, it's so important that, you know if people are doing the same kind of project in another country, they feel the same way. That was what we were part of. Because we were fighting the powers at be, every attempt to isolate us. We were isolated. That we were not connected to any kind of worldwide movement that was going on. And we were just traitors to the country. And we were godless people. Communist don't believe in God, all that crap that was put out. That people who don't care enough or their position in life is such that they shouldn't get involved, believed that, you know.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So we were very isolated, particularly after November 3rd, when isolating us was
part of the scheme for covering up what other people did. Crimes that people did.MATTHEW BARR:
Okay. Can you back up a little bit and talk about some of the people like Jim
Waller, who became your husband and Marty Nathan? A bunch of people who were connected with Duke University, who were doing postdocs there and became part of the group there, Bermanzohn. So can you talk a little bit about those days and basically the lead up to the ... I think pretty soon we should get to what happened that day, November 3rd, 1979 with the massacre. So as a backdrop, can you talk about how some of these other people started to become part of the group and so forth?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. Well, the Worker's Viewpoint Organization was envisioning a worker's
revolution. That the move to socialism wouldn't be that there still would be classes in society contending and instead of workers being oppressed and exploited and not making the major decisions for the society, workers would be in the of deciding. Of having authority. Of deciding what their fate would be. So that move towards social revolution is a working class revolution, basically. And so we put ourselves into the working class, whether or not we had originated there. I think the majority of the people who did affiliate with the Worker's Viewpoint Organization were from working class backgrounds. And mine was mixed. Some family members, yes. But my father, a business owner, although a small business. We never were rich. We never could afford a house. I grew up in an apartment in Brooklyn, so that's all they could ever afford. So we're not talking about major wealth here. We're talking about an entrepreneur who has a small business that he's supporting the family with.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
For me, that was a change. I had left Bennett College. I had decided that I want
to be a change agent full time and not just teach.MATTHEW BARR:
And then can you talk a little bit about-
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I went into the textile factory and I went into various working class jobs for a
few years. Yeah, Jim Waller, this was even more severe because he was a medical doctor. I mean, it was a real change. I mean, he had been teaching at Duke and did his residency at Duke Hospital, Duke University Hospital. I didn't know him then. By the time I met him, he had abandoned this main career to temporarily join the working class. He was in the textile mill in Haw River. One of Cone Mills. That's a whole other thing that has to be looked at in historical context because today the young people go out, they're not going to see all the textile mills running and all the work is coming out of the textile mills because all of that industry and a lot of other industry has moved overseas, where labor is cheaper. So that's a whole thing you have to be aware of when you're looking at something even just a couple of decades ago.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Anyway, we all did that. We all went into working class jobs. I also worked for
a couple of years at Cone Hospital as a clerk, reading EKGs, but it was a working class job. The little bit of skills I needed to have, they told me a few minutes before I started the job. We all did that. And we tried to organize there. If there was a union in the place, then we organized. Like Jim became a shop steward, Bill Sampson became a shop steward. If there wasn't a union, like Sandy Smith was in Revolution, the name of the Cone plant in Greensboro that no longer is running as a plant.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
They didn't have a union there. They had suppressed a union drive. She was
building a union. She was trying to form a union locally in that plant. That is the whole story. The whole story of the prior to November 3rd, the most important piece of that is exactly the question you're asking about what we were doing with Worker's Viewpoint. We were going to the workplaces, we were going to the factories. We were organizing, building up unions that existed, but amounted to really nothing, and trying to get unions in places that didn't have unions.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
We were working in the community, working in organizations like the African
Liberation Support Committee at LSE for liberation of African colonies, but also against racism in the United States. So we were anti-racist in all of those formations of the time, supporting the struggles against racism in other countries, trying to eliminate racism in this country, organize workers here in the factories of which were more abundant than they are now. The whole industrial sector. That's what we were doing.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
And the thing is, as I have detailed in the paper I wrote about my activism.
Very recently, Lewis Pitts and I, coauthored a paper. This was right after the 40th commemoration of (the massacre) ...about the 40 years later. And it talks about what we were doing before November 3rd and how it was related to what happened on November 3rd. So I think that's very important. And when you have the perspective of more time, you can see that.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So that's something I may not get to address more of here, but if I want, I
thought I sent you this paper and you'll see how I prepared for this. Even though I'm not going to say half of it now. I want to respond to your questions. So we were very successful. Let me sum that up. We hadn't been quite successful in reaching workers that they didn't think we're crazy, we're nuts. They don't know what they're talking about. Quite the contrary. They were listening. They were joining. Some of them even wanted to study Marxism with us, and they were joining the union and becoming active and filing the grievances when they were given some tasks that was really dangerous. And it was proven by how many people, how often they got hurt in the plants.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So taking up the worker's struggles, was what Jim was doing, it's what Bill was
doing, it's what Sandy was doing. And Mike and Cesar though not in that same position, supported those workers struggles in the factories. So if we hadn't been successful, there really would have been no motive to suppress us violently. I'm not saying people should not strive and be successful because if you do you'll be oppressed violently. I definitely do not want to draw that moral out of the story. But I'm saying that if you look at history, you see that if you try to shut up an activist or stop an activist from acting, then look at what is that person doing? How is that a threat to the powers that be? I mean, that's the question that should come into your mind.MATTHEW BARR:
Right. Well, were you able to attract across racial lines workers?
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Oh yeah. And that was the whole thing. And why, at some point, we decided to
focus on an anti- Klan campaign. Because the Worker's Viewpoint itself was very multicultural, multi-racial, multi-national. White, red, yellow, brown, orange, pink, everybody. The Worker's Viewpoint was deliberately, consciously and effectively multi-racial and multicultural. And that was our belief. Certainly that would be kind of an entrance belief. You wouldn't even want to have anything to do with Worker's Viewpoint if you were not already anti-racist and people had had experiences, like I just mentioned a few really minor things, getting signals about don't socialize with black people or don't do this or that.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
And with Bill Sampson, he actually witnessed a cross burning when he was a
child, and interpreted as an offense to his Christian beliefs. Everybody, whether you're black, white, or whatever color has some experience that's personal with racism. With the awareness of racism? That is a fact. That's because it's endemic so everybody has it. I don't know. Did I answer any questions?MATTHEW BARR:
Absolutely. Absolutely. So, but also just in terms of some of the people you
started knowing back then, we should also mention Willena Cannon. Talk about her a little bit. African American activist who grew up, I believe, in Mullins, South Carolina. Witnessed horrible racism as a child and became a fearless activist. Talk about her a little bit.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. Willena's story, I think you already have interviewed her. And of course
that's the most famous thing that people think of. Because that was a real trauma to her. She has described it as such. You know, hearing people in a burning barn screaming and not being able to escape. And the Sheriff's men just kind of standing around. That was a horror and a real trauma that I know she suffered her whole life. Will always be with her. Yeah. Also, I think her family was mixed. She had some white members of the family. So many people racially mixed anyway.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
The whole construct of race is just a real wrong. What should I say about it in
one word? Wrong. Because it's wrong. I won't get into that right now, but Willena has always been a fighter and remains that way. So yeah, she's a good friend. She's reliable and she will always take a stand and be in there fighting. She's (inaudible 00:31:05).MATTHEW BARR:
Well, why don't we start talking about what led to the massacre and well, maybe
we could start with the China Grove thing. How did that all happen? You were starting to march and demonstrate against the KKK directly.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
That's right. Yes. Because the connection with the labor was the Klan, which is
historically they've been opposed to unions. Because unions historically usually don't condone racism. They have all members. So the Klan was showing itself again, more publicly in the South. I did not go down to Decatur, but that was Decatur, Georgia was one of the places. I think in Georgia, right? Decatur. Yeah.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So a couple of places where Worker's Viewpoint people went down to join local
demonstrations against the Klan (inaudible 00:01:05:13). And they were also interfering with organizing, labor organizing in the plants here. Their whole message was to sow distrust and enmity between the races, spreading rumors like the black people are taking away jobs of the white people to get people more divided and think that whatever their problem is, it's the other race that's causing their problems. But we were just being anti-racist and anti terrorism. We were natural opponents of the Klan. So we heard throughPART 2 OF 4 ENDS (01:06:04)
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
this small newspaper article, actually, something that I noticed and pointed out
to people, that the Klan were going to show "Birth of a Nation" at China Grove which is near Kannapolis which is a big textile town at the time. Then we found out that locally, people were planning to do something. We went down there and talked with them and we merged with their local thing to support it. We confronted the Klan and the Nazis, they were part of the bargain too, because actually another thing that appeared in the newspaper is a tiny little article in September of 1979. Klan groups and Nazi groups and rights of white people, groups and all the the racist groups in North Carolina had a convention that they called United Racist Front, I believe it's called. They actually made a good term of racism. They made racism sound like it's something like the government does with Citizens United, where Citizens United has nothing to do with unity of citizens, it has to do with corporations. United Racist Front, I think it was called, was a proud thing that you're part of the racist front.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
They had this meeting in the east part of the state. Again, details in my book.
The only ones invited were the racist organizations. There was a federal agent there, at least one, more than one I'm sure, named Bernard Butkovich, at that time he was part of the Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms, was part of the Justice Department, (inaudible) now but it still exists. He joined with the Nazis, he was like an undercover Nazi but he was really a federal agent.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So, the racists get together and they talk about among other things what's
happening in Greensboro, this is after China Grove. China Grove, the confrontation there was in July. Throwing in July of '79 and in September the United Racist Front met. We thought it was a victory at the time. We counted it as a victory because when we marched, most of us just had a piece of glass or a stone in our hand for self defense. At the march right up to this community center where they were going to meet. There was a porch, it was just a wooden building, there was a porch. We had signs and were chanting. They had been in front of this community center, they ended up retreating going from the porch inside the community center, then peeking out of the windows with their guns trained on us. But they actually retreated from a crowd that was marching and chanting, not really very well armed. We counted it. We got the Klan and the Nazis to turn tail and run. We were naive, to say the least, but because for months afterwards we'd known how strong we were.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Anyway, there was that confrontation and it was pretty brave of people I think.
A lot of people, almost everybody relating in this area who was reporting related to the workers (inaudible) was there, plus community people we were working with from Greensboro, plus some of the people from China Grove.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Back when we went back to the China Grove community, the black community, and we
were talking with people and socializing with people and didn't leave the area until some of us left a few hours later. Some people stayed even longer to make sure they were safe.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
But anyway, it was a very tense confrontation. There were two or three police
officers who were uniformed and were visible. They were, I think, advising the Klan and Nazis about you better just step on the porch and maybe you should go inside. If not for their presence, there was a very, very strong possibility that would've erupted in incredible violence that day. It was so palpable, the tension, and the confrontational period of vanquishing. It was there and we didn't, we didn't do anything that wasn't a kind of self defense or making a statement, but if we had to defend ourselves that day it would have been as barbarous. We made the statement. One statement was the burning the Confederate flag in front of the clan as they were in the building looking out. I remember someone said, "burn the American flag." And other people said, "no, don't do that. Burn the Confederate flag." Which we did.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Then, when went to the black community afterward it was another Confederate flag
was burned. Symbolic, it's like the people tearing down the statues today, right? It's symbolism. You're not attacking a person, but you're making a statement using a symbol. That's the same kind of symbolism.MATTHEW BARR:
Well so you had (crosstalk 01:12:26).
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Very tense, very tense. Thing is that the Greensboro police knew this happened.
Everybody knew this happened. It was in the newspapers afterward. When the Greensboro police had to plan around our asking for a parade permit for a rally on November 3rd, they were fully aware. They had discussed it about the incident in China Grove that could have been a real disaster and slaughter. The fact that after China Grove the police could be absent from a parade where it is known there's going to be a confrontation because in the meantime, it's not only that what happened in China Grove, but even more important I mentioned Butkovich as a federal agent.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Excuse me, my throat is dry. And I'm going to ask my husband to-
MATTHEW BARR:
Take your time, have a drink of water.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I'm going to ask my husband to bring me some water, but I want to go on talking.
Excuse me. Maybe I should mute this. Hey, Bobby. Can you bring me a bottle of water.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
The thing, the more salient point here is that Edward Dawson, who was a lead
Klansman. Can you hear me?MATTHEW BARR:
Yeah.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Edward Dawson, a longtime Klansman, leader of this preparation to bust up the
November 3rd parade was also a police informant paid by the Greensboro police department to bring them information about the organization of their groups and what was going on with relation to November 3rd. The police were aware, chief of police was aware. There were briefings beforehand, one right before the Klan and Nazis actually drove in that very morning. A couple of hours that very morning where Edward Dawson brought his intelligence about they're here, they're gathering. They were gathering in a klansman's home on Randleman Road.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
There were armed police knew they were armed, knew that they were going to
interrupt the rally. The police knew all this. They had a paid informant in the Klan. There was a federal agent working with the Nazis telling them he would train them and how to use bombs and how to train them in firearms, too. The thing about (inaudible) talked about as the Klan and Nazi assault, which indeed it was.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Thank you.
Speaker 2:
Welcome, dear.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Sorry.
MATTHEW BARR:
That's all right.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
It was an assault on a parade. The parade that finally had gotten the permit
because they denied the permit (inaudible) they just didn't have.MATTHEW BARR:
Didn't they share the permit with-
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. Right. I said the police informant, Klansman Dawson, his handler was ...
Cooper. Rooster Cooper was a nickname. Rooster Cooper, a Greensboro police department detective was Dawson's handler and told Dawson to go pick up a copy of the permit because the place was different from, we had put up posters about where people should form to go join the parade. But the poster, we gave the address of the then Windsor Community Center, which was very well located that people coming from out of town to find it on the main street. We were going to march through there just minutes after we would go from the other place. That was where we wanted most people to gather, because it was a place easy to find, not in Morningside homes, which was very difficult to go find if you didn't know the city very well.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Rooster Cooper, the handler for this Klansman, paid police informant, directed
Dawson to go pick up a copy of the parade permit, which had the actual origin of the march, which was going to be in the Morningside homes (inaudible) to us or to many of our organizers who had worked there because it was a working class black neighborhood and there were people working in the mills and lived there and people in the black community who had for years been organizing with people in that community. It was part of the black empowerment picture in Greensboro at the time that there were people working class and organizing people in that community. We felt very comfortable starting out there with the leadership and other people starting out there and then marching to Windsor and then making maybe a couple of other stops before we would get to the labor conference, which was to be the high points of the day in the afternoon.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
While it's talked about as the Klan and Nazi assault which it is, you have the
collusion. I'm using that as a word, I think adds precision here, not an analogy or metaphor. Collusion of some police officers and the police department with the Klan and Nazis and collusion by federal authorities.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So many people in the power structure knew that something was going to happen
November 3rd. We were the only ones who didn't truly know it. But the city government knew it, the mayor knew it, the police department knew it. All these people who knew it did not do anything to prevent it, did not even warn us that there might be problems. We thought that the police would be there because the police had always been there when we have a rally, when we do something.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
You participated in many demonstrations, right? Did you ever participate in one
where there were no visible police present? Did police just leave you alone to do what you want to do and not make sure that you are walking on the right side of the street or standing in the right place.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
There is always a police presence and we had gone to so many demonstrations, but
the thing on November 3rd at Morningside homes, there was no visible police presence. There was however, very, very nearby a police presence. Plain clothes, unmarked car because the same Rooster Cooper who was the handler of the Klansman Dawson, he and a photographer followed the Klans ' caravan as it drove towards our starting point with Dawson about because he had the parade permit.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
All of that, that is not what mainly what the newspapers talked about. The
newspapers talked about Klan versus communists. You could depend on the fact that most people or uncritical people anyway, would sit there and say, "I don't want anything to do with either of those groups." On both of your houses or something like that.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
In other countries, what we referred to an action like that as paramilitary
forces, what was going on at the time in Central America, once you have these organized groups that are getting the permission from the authorized government to do what they do so that the government can have some kind of separation does not have to be culpable for that or seen as culpable for it.MATTHEW BARR:
Right. Like death squad in El Salvador and all that.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Exactly. The right words in my mouth, here.
MATTHEW BARR:
Or even last night in Kenosha, Wisconsin, where these vigilantes working with
apparently the police department to kill demonstrators. It's unbelievable. As I understand, the permit that Dawson had seen filled out by your side-SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Nelson Johnson filled it out.
MATTHEW BARR:
Nelson Johnson, so later on it was claimed that it was self defense in the part
of the klan or some of the anti-Klan people were armed. Talk about that a little bit because you guys had agreed there'd be no guns there, right? You weren't armed.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
In order to get the permit, (inaudible) totally unprecedented thing. Nelson had
to say that we would not be armed, okay. And we did not plan to be armed in any kind of special way, you know what I mean? We had labor organizers who had sometimes carried a pistol that was registered. It's not illegal to own an arm.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Organizers like my husband who had heard remarks from white workers about you
better watch your back hanging out was those black workers. We had a couple of people who there was one, Tom Clark who had been playing the guitar, he always had a rifle in the back window of his pickup truck. We did the things that people could legally do in North Carolina at the time. I don't know what the law says today.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I had a pistol that I had loaned to a worker in the plant that Jim worked at
because he was having a problem, then we had gotten it back. Then the last minute, we knew Tom Clark had a rifle in the back of his car. It turns out Bill Sampson had a Derringer that wasn't even working, hardly. One of our members who her ancestors are the daughters of the American revolution, and she was a Quaker. Somebody gave her a gun, the Waller gun. She had my gun to fire back with if you need it. There were a couple of people as a last minute thing you give a pistol to a Quaker who've never fired a gun in her life and she's part of the security for this March because we didn't expect anything to happen. So, there were two or three guns there that people had on their person. Now I'm not even sure Nelson was aware that Bill Samson had just Derringer.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
There were a couple of people who had guns and we fired them. We were so
unprepared and such lousy shots that they didn't do any harm at all. The one with the guns who actually fired didn't hurt anybody. The people that fired back didn't hit anybody. We were trying to defend ourselves. I'm sorry for sounding so great about this, but it's like we didn't (inaudible) we should have just stood there and be shot down and not try to fire back with the two or three crummy pistols that were there.MATTHEW BARR:
Right.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Sorry, I should drink more water.
MATTHEW BARR:
Yeah. I know this is painful stuff because at this point you were now married to
Jim Waller, is that correct?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yes, yes.
MATTHEW BARR:
Did you have a child already?
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
No, when him and I were married in '78 January. November 3rd, '79 we were not
even married for two years and we were gone together for maybe eight or nine months before we got married. I only knew him for a little over two years. We're married less than two years.MATTHEW BARR:
Can you just walk us through that day for you? As much as you want to talk about
what it was like, because that was such a powerful day.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. What it was like was my looking forward to the day itself, there was so
much good energy there and we had so many people in the community that were interested that were going to join us. We've had this whole thing in view that people will be joining us. By the time we got to the afternoon conference that there would be a few hundred people.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
It was a very high energy and afterward when I married Jim, my children were
already adolescent children. Some of the time, they would be staying with their father. On that day my son was with me and my daughter was with her father, so my son was at the demonstration.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Jim and I talked about, we did want to have children together. We were having
some problems about that and we actually had an appointment to see a medical doctor about fertility issues for a couple of days after November 3rd. We were going to see what we could do about that because I was already 41, I had given birth twice so maybe it was something that could be done. We also, that evening, Jim and I were just going to take the time out, go to a restaurant, just be together which we hadn't. We were both so busy working on this thing we hadn't really had much family time. So, I was looking forward to it.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Then, it was pretty chilly in the morning. First of all, I didn't sleep very
well the night before. Actually kept crying instead of sleeping, I didn't know why I was crying. I was crying before, I don't know but these things are strange because I don't usually cry before sleep. We got up in the morning and it was all activity, comrades knocking on the door. Anybody who knocked on the door came in and had breakfast, getting people breakfast. Instructions how to get to the site because it was difficult to find, the housing project.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
When the Klan came in, I mean before they came in, I was standing around
singing. I had newspapers, Worker's Viewpoint newspapers. I had seen the pictures since there were camera people there. One of the workers point members, he wasn't there himself because I think he had moved or whatever, but he had gotten the press to be there. There were four TV stations, or several TV stations and the news and record.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I've seen the pictures of me smiling because by that time I was getting into it.
It was getting warmer and the sun is beginning to peep out, it's going to be a nice crisp warmish November day. The whole thing, the police were not there even though a couple of minutes before the Klan caravan drove in, we learned this later of course, someone called police about a domestic disturbance and from the police command station, the chief of police ordered all the police in the area to get out of the area right before November 3rd, before the Klan caravan drove in. Some police might've gone to this domestic disturbance in that area a couple of blocks away or something. The collusion of the police is many fold, many ways.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Immediately, I didn't know what exactly was happening. I'd seen them drive in
and maybe what I'm imagining is they're going to keep on driving through and heckling. But then, as soon as there was a shot which came from the Klan from the front of the caravan, people started dispersing. That was when the vehicles in the rear of the caravan opened up their trunk and got out weapons. There was one car mainly they had most of the weapons of the shooters in it. The shot that came to the front was more like a signal shot, gathered people.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Since my son was there, he was 11 years old, I ran after him, everybody was
running and I wanted to stay. He was not running fast enough for me, even though there was no time that was actually passing. I was running after him to make sure that he kept running and I could protect him.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
All the people who were there, they can tell you stories about what it was like
for them. I still didn't grasp everything going on, at that moment it's just running to safety. That was that moment.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Some houses, the doors opened and people let us go in. There was one woman, she
was actually the community person at the place. I think it was Mrs. Greenleaf. She opened her door and I ended up being in the same house with Dale Sampson, who lost her husband, Bill, that day. My son was in there so I stayed with him. A couple of other children.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
After awhile, Dale had actually done something. Well, Dale's story either Sally
Bermansohn has it or I have it someplace, but she didn't get there as soon as I did because the main thing I did was run after my son and she was helping (inaudible) who was wounded that day.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Suddenly, the shooting stopped and she said, "I can't stand not to know Signe.
We've got to go back and see what happened." So we walked back and I think I talked about this in the book. Walking back, all you could see were people lying on the ground. They were either dead or they were bleeding and seriously wounded. Some people standing over them, just so spread out. There were no Klansman cars there and the police were just beginning to come in. This is some minutes later. They didn't want to let me through find Jim.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
All right, anyway, Nelson was trying to help Jim. Jim already, he had just died
maybe a second or two before I got there. I responded with grief and anger. The anger at that moment, the anger erupted into... Well, then I knew that I had not taken any really apprised the situation until that point. At that point I knew the whole situation. That's the instant when I'm no longer running and this has happened. I know what this means. That's when I said I blamed the cops or I said, "in spite of you God damn cops who (inaudible) socialist revolution." I said, "you protect the Klan."SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Everything I said was true and I didn't even think about it. And I was ranting
and I was wandering from Jim's body with my fist ranting about the cops did this. They protect the Klan, they protect the capitalists and in spite of you cops, we're going to make God's name, I used a cuss word, a socialist revolution. Then, Nelson was being arrested then for basically making a speech.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
That day was a horror, but that day some of us knew know instantly what's going
on. That kind of knowledge when you are there and you know, because everything that has led up to that, no one could ever tell you you don't know. No one can ever question it. That's the kind of knowledge that maybe you could map that out in somebody's brain if you gave them another drugs or something. That kind of truth is imprinted at the deepest level and we knew it.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Those of us who have been there and had done what we had done in the organizing
work, knew that and had had the run ins with the police. No one more so than Nelson knew that what happened could not have happened without cooperation coming from the police. In many ways, by not being there, by getting the information from the informants and we didn't know all that then. The one thing we knew was uniformed police were not there when they should be there because they're supposed to protect the parade and the neighborhood and they weren't there.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Their excuse afterward was that because Nelson had told them to stay away, which
is a ridiculous excuse, he had told them in that way to stay away. Even if he did, you're going to rob a bank so you tell the cops, I'm going to rob a bank and stay away. Are cops going to listen to you?MATTHEW BARR:
Yeah.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
No, so, the low profile was they weren't there. That's what low profile meant,
but you could interpret the low profile in many other ways. But, they weren't there in a visible form. They were there a block away, in a plain clothes form and all they did being there and knowing what's going to happen was take pictures of the Klan getting out of their car and getting their weapons.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
If that story, realistically, how it happened had been told from day one,
everything would have been different. When the first trial came about, they did not call Ed Dawson to the stand. We thought that they should, they dropped conspiracy charges. They did not involve the police in it at all. This was Klan and Nazis, no conspiracy, no calling Ed Dawson, a Klansman who would've testified if they called him. He gave many other signals that he wanted to run his mouth. He had tried to run his mouth and stop the march, even, and then they didn't listen to that. He knew there was going to be violence there.MATTHEW BARR:
Of course, the media, having seen I've had a student that did a documentary,
Andy Coon about what happened and the shocking everybody was there but the cops. In terms of the footage that Laura did in her wonderful documentary about that day, that massacre, that's one of the most chilling parts is to do this in broad daylight.PART 3 OF 4 ENDS (01:39:04)
MATTHEW BARR:
That's one of the most chilling parts is to do this in broad daylight, and then
talk about what happened with the first trial, all white jury and all that.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. Well, there was the state trial. Then there's a federal trial. The state
trial was for murder, I don't know what the charges were exactly, but no conspiracy charges. They dropped that. They made it seem like this was a spontaneous thing. And that the claim was just defending themselves. That was the rationale. But the second trial was a federal trial for violating people's civil rights. That was an all white jury also. So you have two trials, litigation of this state trial for murder, all white jury. Federal trial for violation of civil rights, all white jury. It was not until we filed a civil suit, which was the only litigation really open to us to do, to have any kind of control over this.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Then the civil suit, we got to pick who our lawyer was whereas in the other
suits, people who were supposed to be on our side were actually compromised because their agencies had complicity with the murderers. So their advantage was not to have all the truth come out. If all the truth came out, then they could see that they would be seen to be culpable. So you have the district attorney, Michael Schlosser who is ended (inaudible) and then there was a federal attorney also who may have had some good intentions, but was tied to the Department of Justice. So could not reveal the presence of Bernard Butkovich.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So, you had really, that's the fox guarding the hen house thing that Lewis Pitts
will talk about. But Lewis Pitts was our main attorney in the civil suit. The civil suit was brought by the widows and those wounded on November 3rd. It was about maybe 10 or 12 people. There were about 10 people wounded. One was a Klansman who got caught in the crossfire. He was shot by another Klansman.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
The litigation was, until we got to a civil suit, and then we got a very weird -
I don't know, weird may not be the right word, but the little bit of truth that leaked out of that was that some Klansman, some Nazis and two police officers were jointly liable for one of the wrongful deaths, for one wrongful death. That was a little bit, a little smidgen of truth that ... in fact, they didn't even find all the guys who were culpable guilty. They didn't find for all of the victims. So there was one of the five people killed, you almost want to infer, his life was more valuable so that his wrongful death could be compensated. But the other four, well, maybe they weren't wrongful deaths, okay.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I mean that you can't use logic to figure this out. What it was was horse
trading and negotiating because there was one black on the jury. This is the benefit of having not an all white jury. It was a black member of the jury and there was a liberal woman who had come from the North, lived in the North who was a member of the jury. So in order to come to an agreement that had to do all this horse trading. We found this out later. One of the girls had talked to Nelson. So you get this weird verdict, only a little bit of the truth.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
And that's why when people ask me often about resources, what they should read,
find out the truth, I cite four sources that I think present the truth on this, okay. And I'll have to say my book is one of them. Another one is a book by another survivor, Sally Bermanzohn who wrote a really good book. It also has the truth in it. Different kind of format from the way I present the story than she presents it. And her book is called Through Survivors Eyes. So those two books by victims, okay?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Then the third book, I always recommend the Greensboro truth and
recommendations, a TRC report of May, 2006, from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. That's a big 500 page book. But that's a good book to get at the truth. And then your Spoma Jovanovic from your department. Her book, which involves the community's reception of all of this and the most recent thing to add to my list of what you should read if you wanted to know the truth. Spoma's book is Democracy, Dialogue, and Community action. Spoma's book, my book, Sally's book and the TRC. If people read those four things, they have a pretty clear picture of what happened.MATTHEW BARR:
Okay. I want to move to a wrap it up because it's close to two hours. That's a
definitely a long time, but we could go on for eight, 10 hours with all this stuff. You know, I'd like to ask you a couple of things. One is to go back to the mid seventies when you were very political and working with other political people, such as Nelson and Joyce Johnson. You mentioned this in your book that you had become known to the Greensboro police department and to the klan. You said your phones were tapped and you were under ... They watched you, right? Can you talk about that?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah, but this is after November 3rd, when I became aware of the surveillance.
I'm sure they knew. They were watching our house. Yeah, I think. But it became clear after November 3rd. And again, there is a story in the book about my neighbors. Well, one neighbor on one side told me that the FBI had knocked on his door, wanting to interview him about me. He told me proudly that he refused. And then another neighbor right across the street, but on the other side of my house said that a whole group of police officials or somebody with a uniform, wanted access to her attic. She was renting this place. To the attic so that they could set up surveillance equipment out of the attic window, that faced right down on our house, on Cypress street.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
They set up a whole spying station. I knew her because her two kids were
friendly and my kids, they played together. I've talked to the kids since they're grown now about that. So they were spying on our house from across the street, and then the other neighbors they wanted to interview him. After November 3rd, I had a banner on my porch, a Communist Workers Party banner even. We were not being subtle about what our beliefs were, what our affiliations were.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
We had interesting things happen afterward. At one point, maybe just weeks
afterwards, some white guys came up to the the door, and they offered to take out some Klansman. If we wanted some Klansman, they would do this job for us. They would put vengeance on the klan for us. Of course, we dismissed that immediately. People drove by shooting. That happened too. Marty Nathan has stories to tell about police officer returning her dog to her. I mean, just following her also, you know, I mean.MATTHEW BARR:
Well also didn't, you have some run in in Durham or somewhere where a Klansman
came up and threatened you and the person you were with? Remember that incident?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. This happened way before. Okay. Yeah. I was working with the Venceramos
Brigade with Charles Finch who was from Durham. We somehow were interviewing some guy who said he wanted to go to Cuba, work with the brigade. So this was connected with George Dorsett, who was another Klansman who was an informant on the klan. This happened before, this is in the mid 1970s. So Dorsett said, oh he threatened us. He even said something about his ties to the Department of Justice and he could have us killed. He threatened us. It was his son, I think that we were visiting. That was probably a trap because his son said he wanted to go to Cuba. And this is about 1970, I want to say '75, '76. I don't know, but maybe even no, not '74, but that was before.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I mean, we were surveilled. Every time we had a public event, our freedom of
speech was really infringed on and our freedom of assembly because we had in December of, I think '79, anti-fascist, anti-government repression conference. They pulled the place where we're going to have the conference out. And people were arriving on the plane and they were going to go to this. And it was a conference at which Paul Bermanzohn's mother, who was alive then, who was in a Nazi concentration camp, was one of the speakers. So I mean, they would take a meeting place away from us. I was at press conferences that I had arranged with the speaker, the sharpshooters on the roof of the government buildings downtown. This is afterwards. They really did not try to hide that we were being followed and limited in our freedoms.MATTHEW BARR:
So, well, a couple of things, It takes a lot of guts to do all the work you did.
And so where does that? You had to fight the fear. I mean, the physical, even going down to China Grove and directly confronting the klan, that takes a lot of guts. So where do your guts come from? I think, very few people are willing to do what you've done or other folks like, I know that Lewis and that other attorney, Flint Taylor, who we interviewed a year ago were threatened during that trial.MATTHEW BARR:
I think this is important for people today as all these things that are going
on, Black Lives Matter and all the things going on right now, so where did you find that courage? You saw that in the film I did about the union fight, that woman Wanda Blue at the end, she says, I had to get the fear out of me. And once I got the fear out, I was good to go. And that's probably the best statement in the whole movie, as far as, people love it. What about you? Where'd you get your courage from because the conviction. I mean, a lot of people don't like the Klan, but that doesn't mean they're willing to stand up and be accountable.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yes, that's true that people don't like The Klan. Yeah. Well, I can acknowledge
that on some things, I display some courage, but there are many things in life, which I do not display any particular courage. I have been in a marriage for too long. Not the one I'm in now, but I was in one of my marriages, which for the record, I'm now married. I can still count on one hand, the number of husbands. Five, this is number five and he's the last. Bob Foxworthy is the last.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
But one of the husbands, I should not have stayed married because it was
psychologically abusive relationship to me. And if I had had the courage, I would have gotten out of that relationship in marriage, much sooner than I did. So I didn't have courage there. But I always have more courage when people I love have courage and we're doing something together and they believe I can do it with them and I know they can do it.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
That's one reason I hang around with the wonderful people I do because their
courage inspires me and convinces me that we can do this thing together. So that helps. You can't stop having pain when you have pain. But the whole thing about the aftermath of going through years of grief, not always having the time to pay a whole lot of attention to it. You know If I didn't have these compassionate comrades surrounding me, supporting me, I would not have had any courage to get through that.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
The courage comes from being part of people who you love. You understand, you
can see they're right thinking people. I don't mean right thinking in a political sense now (laughs), but correct thinking. That their minds are in the right place. So yeah, with the things I've shown some courage in, it doesn't mean I haven't been scared.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
In the book - and some of it is funny when you look back on it - I like telling
these funny stories and the one that my mother wanted me to behave when I was back in New York with the party. She said, I don't want to see your picture in the front page of the New York Post of The Daily News. Sure enough, I got my picture on the front page of one of these papers and identified as the garden bomb thrower because I had set off a firecracker at the Democratic National Convention. Setting off that firecracker, it was not a dangerous act, but it was intended to be disruptive.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
There's two times I've been arrested, I've disrupted things. And this was one
time. I was shaking like a fiend up there. I was smoking actually. At that time, you could smoke inside buildings. I didn't smoke. I figured, somehow I had to get up on a chair and get a firecracker and have it lit. And so I had to have a cigarette. So I could. I mean, I was shaking, but I did it.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Then they dragged me out of there. And I was screaming my head off about what
had happened in Greensboro. I was ranting and screaming the whole way out of there. I didn't have to have courage to think about that. I was just being my nasty self. Courage is not always courage. It's being nasty. It's saying what you think and it's being afraid, you know?MATTHEW BARR:
Well, now another thing I want to kind of touch on has more to do with the
mixture that's always been there of antisemitism because the Klan were saying antisemitic things when they drove in there to you. Of course, Jim was Jewish and Marty Nathan, the other doctor was also Jewish. Everybody, well many were Jewish people. So what about that? I mean of course, the Klan has always hated Jews as much as blacks. So, here, you came down as a Jewish woman in 1971 to Greensboro, North Carolina. That must have been pretty interesting. And you know, what about that aspect of this whole story?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. I can show it here. I wear a Jewish star of David. I am not a very formal
synagogue going or a temple going Jew.MATTHEW BARR:
Can we pull the thing. Perfect. Yeah.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. I sort of identify as a cultural Jew. I just grew up surrounded by my
family, everybody Jewish, a lot of Yiddish speaking customs. My mother, when I first got ... personal aside here, first menstruated, age 12, whatever, slapped me in the face. Why? Because her mother did that to her. I don't even know if that's a Jewish good.MATTHEW BARR:
Interesting.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
No, I mean, if I were to say I've gone to some incredible services at faith
community church. Still today incredible with Leslie Morris. Incredible when Nelson was preaching there too a few years ago. And so inspiring that I have the urge to join the church at the end when they say, if you want to join this church, join. And I'm so inspired, I want to get up there, but I feel so Jewish. I think in my activism, I feel Jewish. I feel Jewish when I know how other Jewish activists in history have behaved. So it's like my trying to pass for Asian or pass for black or pass for something I'm not. I don't want to pass for Christian because I'm Jewish in that way. It's more like a cultural thing.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
But I think I have the potential to have, now, because my politics have
developed spiritually, which I write about in the thing I'm sending you. And I think that had things in my childhood been different, I might've found being a rabbi a possible vocation that I might have considered. Because I did gravitate towards philosophy and I think the same things that made me gravitate toward philosophy might have, if I didn't have some negative images about being in the Jewish community I grew up, I might've gone that way now.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
So I just feel that I am Jewish. It's a fact I can't change. In that sense, so I
could not be anything else. That's just what I am. But I don't believe in identity politics, that you should make identity the decisive thing, because what I really believe in is humanity of all of us. That's what I believe in.MATTHEW BARR:
Right. Right. Well, what are the years been like? It's been 40 years, as we all
know, since '79? What have they been like for you? Have you continued to be an activist all this time?SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. Again, this is something that I thought we would talk about more, but I
wrote it. Yeah. I've continued to be an activist and I will continue. But the nature of this activism has certainly changed in the last few years. Even more. It's more now that I'm active by speaking, by writing whatever things I can still organize. I'm not an activist in the sense that I go out to march. Now with the COVID, really, my walking is limited now. I'm getting around very poorly. If I could get around better and if the COVID-19 going on, I'd be one of the people in front of the house of that creep DeJoy, who was trying to take down the post office.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I want to be out there. I want to be out there, but I can't get out there that
much for various reasons. But mainly it's the physical thing. I'm dealing with personal health issues, a lot of them chronic and they're not going to get better, or I'll just deal with them. The thing is you have to acknowledge when you're getting older, that you are getting older and I haven't had the common sense yet to do that.MATTHEW BARR:
And none of us do. Because I'm behind you, I'm 70, but I-
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Oh my God. Spring chicken.
MATTHEW BARR:
I'm glad, that's music to my ears. Believe me, listen, we all know about how
things start aching, and that's a part of it. But this has been a wonderful interview. I admire you deeply. And any of the other people. Tomorrow we're interviewing Lewis Pitts and tell his whole amazing story of all his many years of courageous activism as an attorney and beyond that. With things going on now with that horrible case of the hog tie.MATTHEW BARR:
It's just never ending things going on. I think, one encouraging thing is you've
alluded to all the huge marches and demonstrations this summer over George Floyd. They say that more people demonstrated, around 25 million across the country, over those weeks than ever before. So what would you say to a young activist, black or white or whatever?MATTHEW BARR:
There's so many different things going on, whether it's in terms of gay rights
or Native American, the environmental movement. Because we're obviously facing a huge problem with climate change, which is almost bigger than anything else, in a way. It was threatens our existence. What would you want to say to young people or any people about keeping up the fight? I think we all could use some cheerleading.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I liked John Lewis' thing about make trouble, good trouble. I think young
people, they're going to find a way. I hope they can borrow and take over some of the ways we did it. Because even though we made plenty of mistakes, we did a lot of things right. That's one reason Lewis and I wrote that article. We wanted to have an impact on the young activists.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
People respond to the oppression and the repression that's happening. And the
reason I don't know ... you're asking me a question now that you can write a dissertation on. So the young people, they don't have to hear from me that they should keep on because they already have that. When you're young and you're idealistic and you think you're going to change things, well yeah, you are going to change things if you just set about doing it. That's not an illusion. So to just maintain that, maintain that hope and learn from the old people, learn from their mistakes, as well as all the things they did right.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
I really love being around young people and now, one thing, I don't speak all
that much, but I did maybe a fair amount of that over the years. And I'd love just telling my story and seeing the eagerness. They're wanting to learn. They're asking good questions. So they don't need coaching, but they do need some of the lessons about the struggle about how things may seem this way. But a lot of struggle tells you that it's more likely it's going to be that way. They need to excuse and take the lessons from older people who've been through things, but they also don't need the permission or anything from us because they are automatically going to respond to repression as people do. So I love them and I love to be with them, but I really don't have any like consolidated advice for them.MATTHEW BARR:
All right. I had 48 questions here. I spent many hours coming up, but I think we
covered. I mean, we could go on for a long time about all the ins and outs of what's happened. But I think you've covered it very well in terms of of course the main thing being the November 3rd, '79. But you have obviously had a lot of very important experiences before and since.MATTHEW BARR:
But for me, the camaraderie and solidarity that you have with people like Lewis
and many other people and Nelson and Joyce are what sustain you as-SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Oh yes.
MATTHEW BARR:
I think that's probably the key thing. So with that said, I want to thank you
for doing this. And this archive will go up sometime in mid-October, meaning that the library, at UNCG, we will have 15 interviews that we're starting with, including the ones that students did last year with people like Willena and other people. So thank you so much for sharing your story with us.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
You're welcome, Matt. And thank you for thinking of doing this and even taking
my initial, slight resistance to it. Not being deterred by that. But I do wish the eight page reflection that I wrote does touch on some things we didn't really bring out that much. So I will send you that as an attachment and particularly in the last couple of pages, if you have any response, any comments at all from me, that would be appreciated. Because part of it, I mentioned UNCG and the plans I have now. So if you have any commentary on that or anything else in that, please let me know. And if you can use that, then certainly use it along with this, however you use this.MATTHEW BARR:
Well, I think that's very important in terms of materials that the library does
have in regards to the civil rights movement and various other movements for this project and other projects. So these interviews, doing oral or visual history is incredibly important, but there are also photographs, other forms that help maintain these stories that happened that are very important for us to think about. And to honor.SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Yeah. Well, thank you for your interest in this. There are things going on, you
couldn't even touch on like a November 3rd curriculum now before the public schools or the elementary schools. So there are a lot going on and what you're doing now with this project will eventually maybe find its home too. And even on the elementary school level, if that becomes part of a curriculum, we've already done some work. I'm helping people who are the main people who are doing it, but I'm cooperating with that because I see that maybe we can make educational resources about this more available. Because I think it can be helpful to what's going on today. What's going on today is unprecedented, like you said, right from the beginning. And we can certainly use all the help we can get to deal with it. Okay. Thank you. Thank you for doing this. Thank you. I do appreciate it.MATTHEW BARR:
Okay. All right, take care. Bye bye.
SIGNE WALLER-FOXWORTH:
Take care. Bye bye.
PART 4 OF 4 ENDS (02:11:26)
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