Transcript
Index
00:00:00
INTERVIEW WITH HOLLIS WATKINS
CAMERA CREW:
(silence)
CAMERA CREW:
Okay, we're rolling now. If you can just... Maybe just to get I guess sound level-
SPEAKER 2:
Okay.
CAMERA CREW:
Just anything.
SPEAKER 2:
Just tell us really quickly what Southern Echo is and what it does.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
Southern Echo is a leadership development, education and training organization
that provides training and technical assistance to individuals and organizations throughout Mississippi and the South. We do the training and technical assistance in a number of different areas, all areas first of all, pertaining to politics. That means everything from how to conduct a voter registration drive, how do you conduct a successful political campaign, duties and responsibilities of all elected officials, how bills become law, redistricting, the whole gamut. Any and everything pertaining to politics, we can provide training and technical assistance to individuals and organizations in that area.HOLLIS WATKINS:
We also work with people who are working on educational issues, trying to make
the educational system more accountable to the needs and interests of the people that it is serving. We also have an environmental component, coming under the head and about environmental component, we work with small farmers and teaching them how to produce their crops without using all of the commercial chemicals, using organic and sustainable ag practices. We promote an intergenerational model of doing work, and we use community organizing as a foundational piece because, we believe that regardless of what it is that you're working on, the degree of success is going to be partially predicated upon your ability to organize it. So, we promote and push this community organizing as a foundational piece. So, that in a nutshell is what Southern Echo is all about. Through this process, we are hoping and continuing to develop a cadre of mostly young and new emerging leaders and organizers to carry the work on.SPEAKER 2:
Okay. Now, who started Southern Echo and when?
HOLLIS WATKINS:
I am the founder of Southern Echo, and this took place in 1989.
SPEAKER 2:
1989.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
The latter part of 1989, we incorporated Southern Echo. This is an idea that
came to fruition as a result of me realizing that I was not getting any younger, and people from all across the state and even other states had began to call on me to work with them and provide them certain kinds of training and technical assistance. I realized that it was a shame that I could not meet the need, the request of all of the people. So, that said to me, I needed to start an organization or a training institute by where I could train, teach other people to do the things that I was doing. Therefore, it would be a much larger reservoir of us to work with the people, especially in Mississippi and the surrounding states. So, that's what prompted me to starting Southern Echo.CAMERA CREW:
Okay. That's great. Just remember one thing, to keep your responses out. Not say
uh-huh or (crosstalk 00:04:29)HOLLIS WATKINS:
You guys are getting good.
SPEAKER 2:
Yeah. Are we ready?
CAMERA CREW:
We're on.
SPEAKER 2:
Okay, good. Well we're here today with Hollis Watkins, and the date is July 7th
2010, and we are in Jackson, Mississippi in the offices of Southern Echo. We're talking today about people's history of the civil rights movement, and are really concerned with the people that actually made the movement what it became. We agreed that Martin Luther King and Rosa Parks, and even people like Medgar Evers, and Fannie Lou Hamer are central figures, key figures in the movement. But, we also recognize that there are a lot of people who get short shrift when people talk or write about the movement, and we're hoping you could shed some light on some of the people and events of the movement that we're not necessarily familiar with. But, what we want to get started with before we get to all of that is your background. Can you tell us a little bit about where you came from, who your parents are, where you grew up?HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well, I was born in the southwest corner of the state in Lincoln County,
Mississippi, down in the southwest corner. In the corner where Lincoln, Pike, Amite and Franklin intersects. My parents were sharecroppers. My father was named John, my mother was named Lena and I'm the youngest of 12 children. I went to school there, later on after complete in high school, I went to Tougaloo College, where I majored in political science and history. Do we want to put a sign on the door?CAMERA CREW:
I guess we can.
SPEAKER 2:
It might not be a bad idea.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, I grew up out there in the rural area where conditions was extremely hard.
Racism was very much alive and well.SPEAKER 2:
Can you give us an example of what you mean about the living conditions and the
racism you speak of?HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well, I can remember my first job out there as a sharecropper's son was when I
was four years old. I was a water boy. I had to bring water from the house to the field for my parents and older brothers and sisters to have water. So, my journey was a little over a quarter of a mile that I had to carry water. Then, as you progressed and got older, you had to pick cotton, you had to chop cotton, you had to uproot corn. I can remember another job that I had after I got a little bigger, where we were digging up stumps. You know when you take your saw and a tree has been cut down? Well, we were hired to dig up stumps. At that particular time, irregardless of what the size of the stump was, you were paid 50 cent per stump after digging it up and putting it on the wagon.HOLLIS WATKINS:
Many times we had to go hunting wild animals, deer, rabbits, birds, to be able
to have meat to eat. So, a lot of hard work was going on. We had to sometime cut wood to sell. You didn't get much money for cutting wood. For example, if you were cutting wood, which was called stove wood, this is what people used to cook the food, you had to have a four racks of wood that was four feet high and six feet long. You had to have four of those, and they paid you $6 to $8 for the four racks. So, a lot of hard work went on as a part of that process.SPEAKER 2:
And not a lot of return on that work.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
Not a lot of return in terms of financial and all of that.
SPEAKER 2:
But, you mentioned a racist, repressive atmosphere. Do you have any examples of
what you mean by that?HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well number one, I can remember when we used to be told all the time, especially
when you go into the little towns, that if you're walking on the sidewalk and you meet white people, you must step off to the side, drop your head, and once they pass by, then you proceed. The reason for that is because, if you didn't and looked a white man in the face, he was subject to beat you, kick you, and might even have you put in jail. If you made a serious mistake and looked a white woman in the face, she could have you charged with eyeball rape and that possibly could be death. So, that was an example of that.HOLLIS WATKINS:
The school that I attended was a little school that, if I walked to school
through the woods, it was about a mile and a half. On rainy days when the woods was wet and you couldn't go through the woods and you're forced to go around the road, then it was about two and a half to three miles around the road. The white children passed by us and our school every day on buses, splashing water sometimes when it's wet. But, I often wondered why was it that that happened. But come to find out, it was happening because I was black and they were white.HOLLIS WATKINS:
One of the most vivid things in my mind, which was, I guess I must have been
about five years old, somewhere four or five years old, I went into town with my father. One of the items my mother told my father to bring back was some sugar. He went in the store and he got all of the items that he was supposed to be getting, except the sugar. I just assumed that they didn't have sugar. We came out of the store, we was standing on the sidewalk talking to some other black men. Then I looked around and I saw white people coming out of the store with sugar. So I says to my dad, I said, "They got sugar now. Let's go back in there and get it. Because, momma told you that be sure you bring some sugar."HOLLIS WATKINS:
So he told me, "That's all right, just be quiet." I said, "No, we got to go get
the sugar," and he kept telling me to be quiet. Then, since I was not obedient and kept raising hell about, let's go get the sugar, he got me by the hand and we went on down the streets and then ultimately went home. I found out later, the reason he didn't get sugar is because there was a shortage of sugar and they were not selling sugar to black people.HOLLIS WATKINS:
One of the things that I'm very proud of my father about though after that
experience is because, he became the molasses maker for that little rural community. People were growing sugar cane and there was another black man in the community that had a molasses mill but didn't know how to make it. My father made molasses, and he experimented and developed that process by which he could make molasses and have those molasses to turn into sugar within three days after making it. So after that, people would come knowing that they had enough sugar cane for example to make 12 gallons, they would say, "I want 9 gallons of molasses and 3 gallons of sugar," and he would produce it. But, we used to bring that about. So, I'm proud of him for that. As we would say out in the country, that's one of the times when he took the lemon and converted it into lemonade.SPEAKER 2:
Yeah, very good. So, you're living in this difficult atmosphere economically.
You have all this hard work to do and getting paid very little money, and there's this etiquette that comes along with segregation. But you mentioned earlier, you eventually graduated high school and go to college. What I'm wondering is, at what point did you become interested in being involved in the movement?HOLLIS WATKINS:
All along, I had questions as to why this and why that, seeing the disparity
between the two races. We couldn't go to the eating facilities and all of this, and I'm asking why. Because, growing up in a very spiritual/religious family, we all are equal in the sight of God and all of this process. So, I'm asking why is this? Why is that? None of the answers I got was satisfactory to me. So, I'm still on a quest to find answers, to questions that I have. Ultimately through that process, I got to the point where I had even started attending, going to youth chapter meetings of the NAACP. Then in 1961, is when I was looking at The Freedom Ride on TV. I happened to be out in California at that time. I'm seeing where the freedom riders are announcing that they are going into Jackson, Mississippi.HOLLIS WATKINS:
It looked like something just went off in my head and says, "If you hook up with
these guys, you'll find the true answers to all of them questions you've got." So I said, "I've got to go home and see if I can hook up with the freedom riders." That's what I did. I didn't have any serious knowledge or understanding about movements, being involved in movements. I was just on a quest to find the answers to why white people could get away with all of this, and we had to treat white people this way, and they could go here, and we couldn't go there, and all of us are supposed to be treated equal. So, I'm just trying to be informed. It was through that process that the little man in the mind and the head says, "That's where you get your answers."HOLLIS WATKINS:
I wanted answers, so I left California because I was between high school and
college. I left California and came back to Mississippi. Shortly thereafter, a friend girl of mine told me Dr. King and other big folks was out in McComb, and I went to McComb. I got my three best buddies, and we went to McComb and was looking for Dr. King, and that's when we ran up on Bob Moses. He explained that he was working on voter registration and he explained what that was all about, and asked if we wanted to join. I told him, "Yeah." That's when I first got involved.SPEAKER 2:
Okay. So, the young lady thought Bob Moses was Dr. King.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
I don't know whether she thought he was Dr. King or whether that was something
somebody had told her. It's very possible that people had seen Dr. King on the TV and associated that with the movement, and was told that Dr. King was out there because movement folks was out there. I guess they figured that... She could have figured, or whoever told her could have figured that wherever movement is that's where Dr. King is. I don't know but as it turned out, Dr. King was not out there and had never been out there. So, there had been a serious miscommunication about Dr. King actually being there. Like I said, I wasn't so much interested in Dr. King or anybody else. I just wanted answers to the questions that I had. So I'm looking for somebody and anybody that I can find, that can truly answer these questions for me, that's the person that I'm looking for.SPEAKER 2:
Now that you're involved, what's your first job? What's your assignment once you
say yes to that question, that you want to participate?HOLLIS WATKINS:
The first thing that I was told to do was to take one of the voter registration
forms and fill it out. Once I filled it out, then I was given a section of the Mississippi constitution to interpret. I did that. After doing that, Bob says, "Okay, this looks good." Now in real life, had you been old enough to register to vote and did this, you should have been qualified, and you should have passed this test and given the right to vote." But he said, "In many cases, black people will pass the test, but the registrar will actually say they have flunked and therefore, they're not allowed to register to vote and can't participate in the voting process." He says, "What we want to do is get as many of our people as possible to take this test down at the courthouse, so that they can become registered voters. So, what we want to do is invite people to come by the office and to come by meetings that we're having every night."HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, that was my assignment. Go out in the streets, try to get people to come by
the office, which was in a Masonic temple upstairs over the Burglund Town Supermarket. So, I was in the street talking with folks, "We need you to come and learn how to become a registered voter. Go by the office, we also need you to attend the mass meetings that we're having every night starting out in the same place, where the office was." Later on, a couple of churches opened their doors, but that's where the first meetings were held, right there in the office which was a Masonic temple over the Burglund Supermarket. So, that's what it was about, and that's what we did initially, until Marion Barry showed up and explained to us that SNCC had two programs, one voter registration, one direct action.HOLLIS WATKINS:
I'm a country boy, direct action, what's that? So, he explains that young people
all across the country is beginning to organize themselves and look at the places that won't allow blacks to go and eat, won't allow blacks to go in theaters and all that. I could relate to that, because I could just point out all kinds of places where blacks were not allowed to go. So he said, what they're doing is they're forming their own organizations and beginning to move and attempt to go to some of these places. That's what we mean when we say direct action. Having sit-in demonstrations, walk-ins and pray-ins and all of that. So, my feeling was that if young folks elsewhere can do it, they are no better than me. We can do the same thing right here.HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, we began to talk to young folks, and among ourselves we decided that we're
going to start our own organization. That's what we did. We called it the Pike County Nonviolent Direct Action Committee. We started listing all of the places that we should be able to go, including the library, as a part of that process. We decided that we're going to have us a sit-in demonstration at some of these places. I should be able to get a cup of coffee here. White folks go in the FW Woolworths store and get a cup of coffee. White folks go to the public library to check out books. Black folks should be able to do that too. Because see at that time, there were no public libraries for black people to go to. So if a student didn't have the books, which 90 something percent of them didn't have at their school, then they just didn't get it, because there was not a library for them to go to.HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, we decided that our first demonstration was going to take place at the
public library. It was supposed to have been about 22 of us that was going to have a sit-in at the library. As a result, when we went back that next day to actually go and have the sit-in, the parent had shot everybody down, except two of us. Out of the 22, only 2 of us was prepared to go forward with the demonstration. We looked at it and we thought about it, and we thought about the freedom song, that Ain't Gonna Let Nobody Turn Me Around. So hey, even if it's only two of us, we're going to still go ahead with this thing. That's when we proceeded.HOLLIS WATKINS:
The parents had shot them down. My parents may have shot me down if I had told
them the actual facts. I just simply told my parents that day, that morning when I was getting ready to go out to town for the demonstration, I just simply told them that I won't be back tonight. I'm going to spend the night in McComb with some old friends. We're all supposed to be going together, so we'll spend the night in jail together. That's my thinking, but I didn't tell them that. I just simply said, "I'm going to spend the night in McComb with some more friends," and they said, "Okay, fine. Just make sure you be good and take care of yourself." I said, "I will."HOLLIS WATKINS:
We had not done our research to the extent that we should have, because when we
went to the library, the library was closed. It didn't open on that particular day, but we didn't know that. But, we decided that we would not be defeated. We weren't going to let anything turn us around and keep us from having this demonstration. So, that's when we said, "Well, Woolworth's right down the street, got a lunch counter, we can't go there," and we went to the Woolworth's lunch counter and sat in at the counter and asked for a cup of coffee.HOLLIS WATKINS:
However, when we first went in, there were not two seats right together. We
didn't want to be separated, one at this end one at another. We wanted the two seats to be right close together. Police officer was already in the store. I don't know whether he had been tipped off or what, but the police officer was already in the store. So finally, after a few minutes, two people got up from the counter that were sitting next to each other. When they got up from the counter, we rushed and sat in their seats. When we sat in their seats at the end of the counter we were at, the waitress went to the other end of the counter.HOLLIS WATKINS:
We called him out and says, "Waitress, we want to get some coffee." Never said a
word. By that time, the police officer was there telling us we had to move on, and if we didn't move on, we would be arrested. So, we asked him, "So well, what's the charges?" He said, "Nothing, if you move on." We said, "Well, we just prefer to get our coffee." Then ultimately, he placed us on arrest.SPEAKER 2:
This was you and?
HOLLIS WATKINS:
This was me and Curtis, Curtis Hayes, which is now known as Curtis Muhammad.
SPEAKER 2:
Okay.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
He was one of those four buddies, I mean, one of those three buddies of mine
that first went out to McComb with me.SPEAKER 2:
Okay. Well, could you talk just a little bit about, I just want to backtrack a
little bit. You mentioned a couple of things, voter registration and the direct action. Can you talk about the response you got from people? Obviously, some people decided, "Yeah, I'll try to take the test," and some said, "No." But, what do you remember people saying to you when you... I mean, this is your area of the state. This is your part of town. Maybe you're not from McComb proper, but you're from the area, but you still might be somewhat of a stranger to some people. What is it that they are saying in response to your saying, "Hey, let's do this?"HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well, in most case I was a stranger to most of the people. Most of the people
were afraid. Looking at most of the people being afraid, that caused me to slightly alter my tactic. Rather than trying to get them to come to the office and learn how to fill out a voter registration form when they have not decided that that's what they wanted to do, the major focus was to get them to come to a mass meeting. Because, this is where we prayed, this is where we sang, have a good time and all of that. So, we want you to come and be a part of that. We didn't tell him that we're going to be pulling on you after little singing and all that to go down and register. We didn't tell them that, but that was how the strategy... I had to alter that because, most people were afraid.HOLLIS WATKINS:
A lot of times, things worked I think better for me than it did for some of the
young people that was out-of-state. I first experienced it because a number of times the people would say, especially when I would talk about voter registration, they would say, "Well baby, the white folks don't want us to do that. You're from up north somewhere and you're going to be going back up there and leave us down here to have to deal with these mean white folks." So, looking at that and listening to them saying that, then I had the ups on people that were not from Mississippi, and especially in McComb area. So I says, "Well, I'm not from up north, I'm from out in (inaudible 00:28:59), that's the name of a little community in front of us. I said, "As a matter of fact, you may know my father or my older brother, or older sister, because they are noted for participating in the singing conventions. My father's named John Watkins, who is noticed for his singing bass. My brother, he's named Willie Watkins and my sister Doris, and all this."HOLLIS WATKINS:
And he says, "You are John Watkins son?" "Yes, I'm John Watkins youngest child."
"Well baby, let me come and tell you a few things. But, I'm so glad to see you. I thought you were from way up north somewhere. That does make me feel better." So, that allowed me to get closer to people where I could have a decent conversation with them, and trying to show them the importance of somebody having to make a sacrifice. As a result of that, sometimes some of them they would reflect back and say, "Well, can you sing?" I'd say, "Yes ma'am I can sing too." "Okay." They said, "Well, just for your sake, I'm going to come out to the meeting, and we're going to do some singing together. I'm going to listen out to you all sing."HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, that was a slight drawing card for people, but fear permeated the community.
Our folks was very much afraid. So we had to do a lot of talking, and as I said, had to change the strategy from talking about both the mass meetings and filling out the voter registration form, to just trying to get them to come to the mass meetings, where we can talk a little bit and we can sing and have a good time and get to know each other. Through that process, we get into the political aspect.SPEAKER 2:
You were able to secure enough recruits to do what you wanted to do as a result
of these mass meetings.HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well, not necessarily I'd say we'd get enough recruits to do what we wanted to
do, but that was a process that ultimately helped us to get more people to get involved. More younger people started getting involved. Also, after spending 30 days in jail and getting out... Well, after Curtis and I had gotten arrested, four days later, three other of the people from my group went and sat in at the Greyhound bus station. When they were not allowed to reenter the school, the high school there in McComb, that created the young people following up on their plan, which they had said that if they were not allowed to get back in the school, they will have a walkout. That's what they did. They had a walk out. That kind of like was a springboard to get a lot more of the community people actively involved, and it continued to mushroom a little bit from there.SPEAKER 2:
Why do you think that was the one incident that got people's juices to flow? It
seems like in a lot of other places, killing or just the simple act of voting did it for some people, why do you think it was with these children, that people started to coalesce around this idea of moving things ahead?HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well number one is that, most people, most adults, most parents have a genuine
concern for their children. This was the case where the people at the school had said, "Because of you fighting for your rights, we're not going to allow you to get what you're entitled to, which is an education." So, a lot of people saw that and knew that was wrong. So, when the young people who also knew that was wrong, staged that walk out, then you had over 100 and something young people now, that they can clearly identify as participating in this process. The school system said, "For all of you that participated in this process, this demonstration, in order for you to come back to the school, you and your parents will have to sign a statement saying that you will never participate in civil rights activities no more." So, that infuriated not only the students, but it infuriated a lot of the parents and community people.HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, they saw that was blatantly something that was wrong, a violation of their
rights. So, now they want to come up and be a part of the movement. A few people did sign, but most of them did not sign. For those that did not sign, then their students were not allowed to come back to the school. That's what prompted us to have, which was called the First Freedom School, took place in McComb, so we could accommodate those young people who could no longer go back into school, but we could make sure that they stayed up in terms of their academics, while we work on trying to get them in some other school. As it turned out, we couldn't get them in any of the other local schools within the area, and even other areas outside of the state.HOLLIS WATKINS:
But, we were blessed to work out a deal with JP Campbell College, who had both
high school and college courses going on. They opened the doors and agreed to accept those students at JP Campbell College. But, a lot of people when they talk about The Freedom School starting in 1964, that's when that which we had done earlier, was looked at and considered, and we carried it to another level in a much larger process in 1964. But, the first Freedom School was actually in 1961, in McComb.HOLLIS WATKINS:
So now, you've got students that's involved, you've got families of these
students that's involved, you've got parents, a lot of folks as well. I'm in it now. Whether I do anything or don't do anything, this is how they see us, this is how they're going to treat us. So, we might as well join in the fight to try to eradicate this racist attitude, these racist activities that go on, and fight for the rights of all people. So, that's how people saw that and gave them the desire and the willingness to get involved and do what they could possibly do.SPEAKER 2:
Okay.
CAMERA CREW:
I was going to ask, now, was this the same time when the... There was quite a
bit of violence associated. Was this the same time when Herbert Lee got shot? Was that right there in the same time?HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well, you're dealing with the same, same timeframe.
CAMERA CREW:
Yeah, but that was over in Amite County?
HOLLIS WATKINS:
But that took place over in Amite County, yeah. Because see, the first incident
over in Amite County had to do with the sheriff and people attacking Bob Moses and beating him up for having gone to the courthouse with a small group of people that was attempting to register. Herbert Lee was one of the folks who had been working with EW Steptoe on voter registration over in Amite County. His neighbor Eugene Hurst, is the one that killed him in broad open daylight and cold, right there at the cotton gin.HOLLIS WATKINS:
One of the things that a lot of people don't know and have not realized is that,
Herbert Lee and Eugene Hurst were not just neighbors that lived right down the road from each other, but they in fact were, I guess you could say business partners. Herbert Lee had more land than he could utilize in terms of farming. Eugene Hurst at one point in time, rented land from Herbert Lee, because he could farm more land than he had. So, he rented land from Herbert Lee and put it into farm operation. So, this is a situation where these are not strangers. These are not some white people coming from out of here dealing with some black folks that's doing this, that they don't know, but these are people that know each other and had been involved in business transaction with one another, that lived right down the road.HOLLIS WATKINS:
As we all know, Eugene Hurst was a state legislator at that particular time.
But, a lot of people didn't realize and still don't know that they had that kind of relationship.CAMERA CREW:
Hang on a second. I think somebody got hot.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
The thing about the fear, the Klan all over the state periodically burned
crosses, and various points in time, we hear about there being lynchings, and people-SPEAKER 2:
(crosstalk 00:39:57).
HOLLIS WATKINS:
At that particular time, the Klan was active all across the state. We heard many
times about the Klans having lynchings, they will also burning crosses and running people out of town. We heard about this. So, that's part of why the fear permeated the community. But here again, as a young person, you're living among all of this, and young people tend not to be as afraid as some of the older ones. I had become my expert out there in dealing with guns, and also beginning to be an expert in dealing with knives. My feeling was that, "Hey look, this is one of them situations where I'm going to get my share if it comes down to it." Looking at the history of my daddy and in the position he took, because after I got involved in the civil rights movement, they sent word to my father by a relative to tell him that if he got me out of the civil rights movement, the white folks would help him.HOLLIS WATKINS:
My father just simply said, "He's my youngest child, they didn't help me with 11
before him. I've managed to get him through high school, they didn't help all through that. So now he's out of high school, he's old enough to make decisions for himself." That infuriated them, and they sent a second word by the same person and saying that, "If you don't get him out of the civil rights movement, we're coming down there and we're going to get some of your," I won't say the exact words, but I'll just say, "Some of your backside." My daddy sent another word. He said, "Well, you tell them that if they want to get some of this what I got, they've got to bring some in order to get it, and I'm prepared to get my share of everything they bring when they come to get this."HOLLIS WATKINS:
They knew that he was serious, and the Klans never came within a mile of our
house. They burned across maybe a mile and a quarter down the road, which was also the other side of the church that people in our community went to. So, there were some people that was willing and ready to take a stand and go down if necessary. That's the position that a lot of us young folks had. We'd say, "Hey look, we've been mistreated, we've been abused, and we couldn't find any reason that some of the people who we heard of had been beaten or had been lynched, some of the people's houses were burned yet they hadn't done anything." So we said, "Well, hey look, if all of this happened to you for doing nothing, then you're just sitting ducks waiting for somebody to come get you. So, we're going to do something. We're going to force their hand and maybe we get some of our rights as a result of us doing that."HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, it wasn't so much of not having some fear, but making sure that whatever
amount of fear we had, didn't keep us from doing that which needed to be done. It was based on that, that we were willing and ready to move forward to try to make things better.SPEAKER 2:
It really complicates our understanding of how the movement unfolded, because
you come from California, you meet with Bob Moses who was really going to be the face of SNCC, Marion Barry you're working with and under him I presume, who's one of the movers and shakers and said, "Let's do the Nonviolent Coordinating Committee." But, the nonviolent part is what people concentrate on the news media, the TV stations and how people understand this movement is taken up. But based on what you just said, it seems like there's another undercurrent there that is not necessarily nonviolent. So, how did you reconcile your personal feelings with the organizational structure that you were working with?HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well, I understood the importance of nonviolence as a position that a movement
should take. Because ultimately, we were not prepared to take on the city police, the county police, the state police and the national police. We were not prepared to do that, so ultimately, that's a gigantic wash out, a wipe out. So nonviolence was good as a tactic. That meant that there are various points and times when you might not be the aggressor, but you're talking about self-defense. You had a lot of people that was out there that believed in self-defense. I'm not going to be coming on you to do this to you as an aggressor. But, if you are stepping out of line and you come down in here with this, as we used to have an old saying that we'd say coming up, say, "You're going to meet your daddy drunk when you're coming down in here stepping out of line, because I've got something for you."HOLLIS WATKINS:
You had a lot of people that way. For example, up in Holmes County where I was
the project director for 1964, you had Hartman Turnbow, and every place you saw Hartman Turnbow you could expect him to have a .38 pistol. When he would put his little satchel up on the table when he would be speaking or what have you, and he unzipped it to get a paper, the first thing was that you'd see that .38 roll out first, and he'd be trying to push it back. Sometime he'd see it messing with him, he'd just take it out and lay it up there and just go right ahead. There are a lot of people like that. Joe MacDonald from over in Sunflower County, same way.HOLLIS WATKINS:
I had problems with SNCC in 1964 because, it just so happened that I lived in
this little community called Mileston Mississippi. The black people in Mileston had set up a defense system, because you had two ways of going down in there. You'd come cross the railroad track and you'd go out at another end across the railroad track. I was living with Mr. Dave Howard, which was the first point of contact once you cross the railroad tracks. So, you had to give you a signal or you would be apprehended.HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, I'm living with Mr. Dave Howard, he, his wife and one small child. They are
farmers getting up 4:30 and five o'clock in the morning, going to bed late at night. I noticed that they were taking shifts on security. One would take the early shift up to midnight, and another one would take the other shift from midnight to 4:30 to 5:00, when they're getting up, getting ready to go to the field. And I'm saying, "I'm staying in this man's house, and he and his wife are suffering going through all of this trying to protect me." I says, "It's not fair for me to offer my help." And I offered. I says, "I will take one of these shifts on this post and then guard," and that's what I did.HOLLIS WATKINS:
The head leaders of SNCC, officers, they said, "We're nonviolence," and what
have you. I just said, "Well, I'm just working for the community now. I'm not working for SNCC, if that's the way it is." I said, "But I will not live in this man's house, eat his food and everything, and not take some of the stress and burden off of he and his wife who were farmers."HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, I stood post one of those shifts. I told them, "Yeah, I'll take this one.
You all can alternate. You take one night and your wife take the other night, and that gives one of you rest. But, I'll take on a consistent basis, this shift." The shift that I took was the sun down to midnight shift, that I took. I said to the SNCC folks, I says, "Just make sure when you come across that track, you know what the signal is. Because if you don't know what the signal is, you'll be apprehended."HOLLIS WATKINS:
The folks down that one night apprehended the highway patrol. He jumped across
the track in his unmarked car, and when he went on down through there, and the next thing he knew, he was facing some bright vehicular lights facing him in the middle of the road. He dimmed and then they wouldn't dim. Then next thing he knew, there was another vehicle that had came up on him from behind that had a driver and two men on the back of the pickup truck with automatic shotguns and .30 aught-sixers and .30-30 Winchester rifles pointing over there to him. When he saw that, he just jumped out and said, "I'm the highway patrol, please." Then we said, "Well, you didn't give the signal." He said, "Well, I didn't know nothing about the signal." I said, "Well, you should've learned what the signal is. You don't come down in our community any time of night and what have you."HOLLIS WATKINS:
He begged for mercy, and they gave him mercy and told them to turn around and,
"You head out of here." So, you had a lot of black people that were not aggressive with the violence, but when it came to self-defense, they were protected. I think by me wanting to do what was right, I think I that's probably what helped make me as good a person as I am, however that is. Because, I did a lot of praying that my nonviolent would never be severely tested. Because, I had become proficient in shooting shotguns and rifles, because I expect the need to be able to do that. I was prepared to kill folks. Cutting through the chase, I was prepared to kill folks. I could take a 22 rocket and strike a match with it as far as I could see it, or I could cut the stem.HOLLIS WATKINS:
If a person says, "Strike this match," as far as I could see it, I could take a
22 right from the strike of that. If they said, "Well, just cut it in two." I could cut the stem of it. So, that was the gun part. Anytime you saw me, I had two knives, a switchblade and a hook bill. When I got ready to go on my demonstration, I'd leave my knife at the office, and this is early days. But as time went on, I grew into it and didn't bring them on the site. But initially yes, when I came to the office, I had my stuff and kept my stuff with me until I got ready to go on a demonstration. So, I used to pray constantly that my nonviolence would be severely tested, because I didn't want to break the rules of the organization. But I'm knowing, I'm ready, I'm prepared to kill you.HOLLIS WATKINS:
I had developed out there on the farm, to be as some folks said, as strong as an
ox. That time, fertilizer didn't come in 50 pound bags. It all came in 100 pound sacks. I had developed to where I could care three sacks at one time. Put one on my left shoulder, one on my right shoulder and one in my arm, on the right, and carry 300 pounds. I was fast. I did a lot of running, chasing muse, cows and hogs out there in the country, I was fast. I could do, when I went to college and PE class, I did the 100 yards. They didn't call them meters then, it was yards. I did 100 yards dash in less than 10 seconds flat.HOLLIS WATKINS:
So I'm saying, "Look, I'm strong, I'm fast, I can deal with whoever, whatever
needed to be dealt with, and I can be moving on to another scene to get to my stuff or whatever." So, this was the kind of attitude that I had when I first came in there. But, I'm praying saying, "I don't want to blow it for the organization." I constantly prayed, but you had a lot of people. A lot of those that were in the movement, brothers and a lot of the community would tell you, "So what man. You all go ahead. I can't be in that demonstration, because if somebody hit me, I'm going to do everything I can to leave him there forever." But, the attitude of nonviolence in the movement was prevailing, and we tried to abide by that and deal with that.SPEAKER 2:
Would you say the sentiments you had were particularly widespread or was that
the exception to the rule in SNCC in general, or at least with the SNCC people you worked with?HOLLIS WATKINS:
With the people in Mississippi for the most part, I'd say the sentiment that I
had was probably the largest prevailing sentiment. People were willing to do whatever they could to abide by, but if it wasn't for the love and respect they had for the organization, for the most part focusing on, "I'm not going to get out there because I don't want to put my stuff away. I want to keep it. I want to use it. They use theirs, I'm going to use mine." That's one of the things that a lot of people don't realize, but that was the attitude that the Deacons for Defense had.HOLLIS WATKINS:
The deacons for defense because of having that attitude, provided a lot of
safety, and forced the law enforcement officers to secure us much more than they would have or had been prior to the Deacons for Defense. The Deacons of Defense said, "Yeah, we've got our stuff, we're ready to meet you on whatever ground you are. You've got your guns and what have you, we've got ours. They're nonviolent, but we're not. You come hit me, I'm going to hit you back, yes. And I will be ready to shoot you and kill you if it comes to that."HOLLIS WATKINS:
So, when the law enforcement officers understood that, in order to protect the
white folks from that, they had to keep the white people back. Keeping the white people back meant that the demonstrators were not beat up on. But, them keeping the white people back was not so much as to protect the black demonstrators, but it was to protect and keep the whites who ran up in there, from running up in the arms of a Deacon for Defense.SPEAKER 2:
Or somebody who felt the same way.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
Or somebody who felt the same way. They were young. A lot of the young brothers
who actually were not actually members of the Deacon for Defense said, "I'm one of the deacons. I'm one of the deacons. Yeah, I've got my stuff, I'm going to be right out here." Sometimes they would, sometimes they wouldn't, but that gave them a leeway in a way to be involved in that process.SPEAKER 2:
It certainly does help to explain the success of some of the actions, because
when you think of Mississippi in the '60s and how difficult it was, as you explained, how difficult it was for black people, you have to wonder why so many more people didn't get hurt or killed. Apparently, it's because of this attitude and this action, these statements that, "Hey, if you come in here, you can expect something different. It's not going to be like what you think it's going to be like."SPEAKER 2:
But, I want to talk a little bit about the actual organizing. So, you left
McComb and now you're back up in Mileston, you're working with the people in Holmes County. You mentioned 1964, we know that, that was the big summer, Freedom Summer with the students coming from the north and the west, and they're predominantly white. Did you have any feelings one way or the other as to whether this was a good idea?CAMERA CREW:
Excuse me just a sec. We need to change tapes.
SPEAKER 2:
Okay. And-
(tape change)
HOLLIS WATKINS:
(inaudible 00:00:16) When we began to talk about the 1964 summer project that
most people refer to as freedom summer, I was against the idea of bringing large number of young people from the West coast, from the North into Mississippi. The major reason I was opposed to the idea was because I knew that with a lot of young energetic people coming into Mississippi at a time when we were just beginning to get the local people up and moving and taking initiative themselves for the movement, this was going to squash all of that. Not blaming the young people, but they wanted to get as much done as they possibly could in the short period of time. So I felt that anything that needed to be done, there were two or three of them who'd say, "I'll take care of this. I can do this, let me do this. Let me do it."HOLLIS WATKINS:
And by doing that, it would be taking away the initiative that the local people
would have taken and had began to take, and ultimately having them to take a back seat for three, four, five, six months. And after the young people were gone, it would be a lot harder for us to get the local people to start up again, because it's easier once you got people up to keep them moving than it is to allow them to sit down and start over again.HOLLIS WATKINS:
And that was the basic reason for my being opposed to that. I felt that it would
have been all right if we had looked at each project area we were going to be working and decided on a specific number that we were going to send in there under the guidance and direction of some of the local people. That would have been all right, but to just bring in a large number, then I felt it was going to be devastating for us. And once they all gone back, we would have a lot more problem and troubles trying to restart the local people again. So that was my position. And for the most part, that is exactly what happened.SPEAKER 2:
And the movement, in your opinion, sort of got co-opted during that summer by, I
guess what the Mississippi governors would call outside agitators.HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well I wouldn't use the term of it got co-opted, but I'd say because of the
large number of young people coming in doing work, you had another set of people that was doing the work and those that had been previously doing the work and just getting started and doing it. So "Oh, I can take a seat. I don't have to worry about this." Now, after that period of time, they're gone back and sitting down and feel good. After all the white folks have not changed so maybe I ought to just keep on sitting down. So for those of us that's left, our job become a lot harder. So I didn't want that to take place, but it did. And it's understandable because young people wanted to accomplish as much as they possibly could.SPEAKER 2:
Okay. But your position was not one that was dictated by what you felt by race?
HOLLIS WATKINS:
No.
SPEAKER 2:
About race. It wasn't that it was a majority white group coming down, but just
any outside group would have disrupted the process.HOLLIS WATKINS:
To me, any group of young people. It had nothing to do with race, and even
though race and prejudice had been all over the place here, I grew up where I could clearly see that there were people different. For example, I can remember a Mr. Smith who grew up on the outskirts of our community and (inaudible 00:05:15)SPEAKER 3:
Okay. I think we're... Go ahead.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
I grew up in a community where it was all black community and adjacent to that
community was a white community. And there was some fairly decent relationship that existed between the black and the white community as a part of that process. And that was a white man, I never will forget.HOLLIS WATKINS:
So I grew up in this community, this all black community that was adjacent to
all white community and people in the two different communities had a fairly decent relationship, some of them with one another. And I can remember at the time when one of the white men decided that he was going to change his pay scale from paying $3 a day to the workers that worked on his farm to 75 cents an hour. So he was ostracized by the broader community... Not people in his little, small community, but people in the broader white community. So I understood and had some relationship with (inaudible 00:06:30) prevailing thing that went down, I could clearly see and understand the racism and that piece.HOLLIS WATKINS:
So my objection had nothing to do with race, but my objection had to do with
wanting to make sure that the people that was calling the shots and running things were people that was local to the area and not having that done by people who had never been to Mississippi and knew very little about Mississippi and that had nothing to do with race.SPEAKER 2:
Okay. That makes sense. I want to just ask one more question about Freedom
Summer and move to the last question, which will be about Vernon Dahmer. At the end of the summer, or at least by August, the student nonviolent coordinating committee had amassed a new group of people and called this new group the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party. Now I'm just wondering, based on all the organizing y'all did, and the two seats at large that you would offer as a group, what your position was on the response of not taking those seats. Were you for or against that and were you for or against the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party becoming an independent party or merging with the Democratic Party?HOLLIS WATKINS:
It was my position that the Mississippi Freedom Democratic Party should have
been and was to be an independent party, not a party that was merging with the regular Democratic Party. Major reason we wanted an independent party is because we realized that that was no room for us as black people at that time in the regular Democratic Party. And I always felt that if we were allowed to come into the party, we would be marginalized, so it was my position that we needed to be an independent party of our own. To me, offering us two seats was an insult and like a slap in the face. To me, it's kind of like saying... You and your wife and four children come to me and say "Hollis, we have not had anything to eat for the last three days. I know you got food and I'm willing to work out whatever, but I need you, if you will, to provide me and my family with some food," and I give you one lollipop and say, "Hey, look. Here you go, brother. You got some food for you and your family."HOLLIS WATKINS:
See, to you, that would be a tremendous insult. And that's how I looked at being
offered the two seats. I thought it was a serious insult and slap in the face. And it also said to me that people don't take us serious, or either don't think we are serious and is willing to take any and everything that is handed out. It reminded me... When they did that, my mind immediately went back to some of the black people that used to work in the homes for some of the white people. And when they get the work done and they get ready to leave, they gave them an old pair of raggedy clothes that their children had worn out and say, "I got some clothes for you that you can take for your children. They might need to be cut off for him up or let out, but I think they'll be fine for you." That's where my mind went back, offer me these two seats. It went back to that kind of experience, which I had had. So to me it was a serious insult.SPEAKER 2:
Okay. And finally, I know we don't have a chance to get through this. I said,
this was the last question. It's the next to the last, because I actually want to get one more thing about Southern Echo. But you did have some experience in Hattiesburg, and I'm wondering how it came to the point where you were first of all, assigned to this place. And once you got that assignment, what was that experience like organizing the people of Hattiesburg and working with those people?HOLLIS WATKINS:
My experience in Hattiesburg was a good experience because it was an experience.
And I got hooked up with Mr. Dahmer, who was a man that believed in serious work. That's the mentality that I came out of. How that came about is that Dahmer was a part of C C Bryant's and them connections, and he was the chairperson for the Forrest County NAACP. C C Bryant was the chairperson for NAACP in Pike County. E W Steptoe in Amite County. So they had the network. So Vernon hearing about the apparent progress that C C is making over in McComb and also doing some stuff with E W over in Amite County, it's kind of like, "Hey, I want some of that. See if some of the young folks over there would be willing to come over here and work with us."HOLLIS WATKINS:
So that was a proposition that Vernon Dahmer put forward and the answer was yes.
And I was one of the ones who volunteered to go. And one of the reasons is because I was a local Mississippian. And we'd begin to try to get as many local Mississippians involved and them taking leadership roles. So I was one of those that went, and I think Curtis eventually volunteered to go to Hattiesburg and we hooked up with Mr. Dahmer. And he was the person that was serious, believed in working hard. And that was right down my line. I was there and also at various points in times I'm knowing that when we're not doing stuff and trying to get people registered to vote, that we aid and assist him out there on his farm in any way that we could possibly do that.HOLLIS WATKINS:
But Mr. Dahmer also was in a position by which he could provide us not just with
a place to stay and food to eat, but he also could provide us in some cases with gas money and in other cases with gas money and a vehicle to put the gas in. So to me, it was good, working with Mr. Dahmer. And he was well known, well respected and having used the experience in McComb, then we said, "well, I'm here with Mr. Dahmer." So that within itself, for folks that wasn't extremely afraid and was wanting something done, "Hey, this young man, is he working with Dahmer?" So that automatically opened the doors. We didn't have that experience under our belt when we first started working in McComb, but we developed that and we used that kind of thing as we moved throughout the process.HOLLIS WATKINS:
Being able to say, I'm here working with Mr. Dahmer and sometimes folks was,
"who?" Said, "Mr. Dahmer, that lives out in Kelly Settlement." "Oh yeah." All right. Now they know him, so if they know him, you working with him, then they know you and it puts them at the position by which they either declare that I'm ready, I'm willing to do something while I'm with you or I'm too afraid to do anything right now. And if you're too afraid to do anything right now, we'll be coming back to see you, but we still want you to come out to our mass meetings because we're going to sing until the power of the Lord come down and bring people into that process.SPEAKER 2:
Okay. So did you find Hattiesburg any easier or more difficult to organize than
say, the people in Southwest Mississippi, the people in McComb County, who you had worked with? Was it the same? How did you find Hattiesburg?HOLLIS WATKINS:
When I went into Hattiesburg and talking and dealing with the people there, I
found that the people in Hattiesburg seemed to have a much more willing attitude to go down and attempt to register than they did in McComb, Southwest Mississippi. There were people that knew about registering, had heard about it, but didn't actually know what the process was, but after explaining the process and what all of that was connected to, then people seem to have been much more willing in Hattiesburg and Forrest County. I say Hattiesburg and Forrest County because we were going all over the county and people were coming from different parts of the county, not just Hattiesburg, because Dahmer himself didn't actually live in Hattiesburg. He lived up near the Jones County line in Kelly Settlement.HOLLIS WATKINS:
So I found them to be a lot less afraid and more willing. And I found that there
were also more people that was a part of the... I guess you could say the educated community, that was willing also to do that than we found in other areas. Most areas, if you looked at teachers, professors, and those kinds of people... Business people, even, they tend to shy away and not be willing to go down and attempt to register. But in Hattiesburg it was very much different than it was in the McComb area.SPEAKER 2:
Okay. Well, as I said, this is for a much larger project that we're doing and we
hope we can get an opportunity to come back and revisit some of the things you pointed out here. I have a million questions, as you can probably guess, but I did want to sort of bring us back to where we started.SPEAKER 2:
And that is the work that you're doing today. You have essentially, as far as I
can tell, been working for 50 years, if not more, in the movement? Why such stamina? And you're working with an organization that you founded, Southern Echo, that now it looks like to me... And tell me if I'm wrong, seems to be trying to get at least something out of the Democratic Party or is it the democratic process that's more important than the actual party itself? So what accounts for your longevity and why Southern Echo today?HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well, there are a number of things that accounts for my longevity. Number one is
that I made a commitment to do certain things. The job has not been completed. So I'm still working on the job. As we would say out in the country, "I'm still working on the building." So I'm trying to get it to where it needs to be and I don't want to walk away from it with it being incomplete.HOLLIS WATKINS:
Why Echo today? I mentioned earlier that it was about me attempting to develop a
cadre of new and young community organizers and community leaders. And that has not been finalized. That to me is very, very important. So it's something that I have to continue to do. That something that Southern Echo is committed to do. That's one of the reasons other Southern Echo came into existence. So if you bring something in existence to do something and it has not completed the job, then you want it to complete what it was supposed to be about.HOLLIS WATKINS:
I get a lot of inspiration and motivation from young people. When I was
younger... I'm still young. When I was younger, I got my motivation, as I would say, from older people. And people ask me today, "what is it that gives you the stamina and what motivates you today?" I tell them that I get my motivation from all mighty God, but it generally comes through young people. People talk about how young people ain't about nothing, they ain't doing nothing, what have you, but I know that for the most part, it was organic fertilizer because at the peak of people being involved in the civil rights movement outside of the 1964 summer project, there never was a time where there was more than 25 of us in those leadership roles, doing things as young people. Take the 1964 summer project out.HOLLIS WATKINS:
But today, I can go into one or two counters and I can show you more than 25
young folks that's actively doing a lot of things. So I know when they say that young people ain't about messing, won't do nothing, ain't going to be nothing, they ain't willing to do nothing... I just say that that's not the truth. And ultimately it's a lot of organic fertilizer and maybe I will use it since I'm involved in organic production, but that's what it's about. It's about trying to finish a work that is incomplete. And it's about trying to live up to a commitment that I made. And that's part of the problem with too many people today is that they are not willing to make a commitment and stand up to that commitment and see that that commitment comes about.SPEAKER 2:
Have you found that the election of Barack Obama into the presidency has made
your job any easier or has it made it more difficult?HOLLIS WATKINS:
I don't think it has made it easier. Maybe a little bit more difficult because
there were too many people that had too higher expectations of him, expecting him to instantly bring in things that he could not do. So now that requires additional work and explaining and getting people to see and to not lose faith and confidence in themselves, a good system or whatever as a part of that process then. So I would say it made it not better, but slightly a little bit more difficult in that I have to do additional work that didn't previously have to do to keep people on board, to get people to see and understand the systems, methods, the processes by which things take place and come about.SPEAKER 2:
Okay. And finally, you mentioned that one of the ways you and your cadre were
able to get people involved was by basically promising them a good time. You know, "come out and we'll have a good time and a good sing so," and I know from studying the movement and being around you and your cohort, the activists, that that is a central piece. The freedom songs were a central piece. I wonder if you would share with us a stanza, a line or something from your favorite freedom song and take us out of here.HOLLIS WATKINS:
Well, I must say that I don't have a favorite freedom song.
SPEAKER 2:
Okay.
HOLLIS WATKINS:
I used the song, the music as an organizing tool and based on what it is I'm
doing, who it is I'm doing it with, determines which song that I feel will have the greatest impact. So I don't have a favorite freedom song. I just look and say, "Hey, look, if I'm getting ready to build a brick house, then I look and pull out a trial. If I'm going to do some carpentry work, I'll pull out a hammer and a saw," that kind of thing. So I don't have a favorite song, but I will give you very briefly a couple of verses of a couple of different ones. Number one, there was a invitational song where you want people to come and join the movement and get on board and work with you.HOLLIS WATKINS:
And we call it, "get on board, little children, let's fight for human rights."
Get on board children, children. Get on board, children, children. Get on board, children, children. Let's fight for human rights. I hear those mobs-a-howling, they're coming round the square. Gonna catch those freedom fighters, but we going to beat them there. Get on board children, children. Get on board children, children. Get on board children, children. Let's fight for human rights.HOLLIS WATKINS:
And after you get them on board, you don't want folks to be scared, because a
lot of folks are afraid. And one of the songs that we sang to help people to overcome fear was a song that we called, "ain't scared of nobody cause I want my freedom." Ain't scared of nobody cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. Ain't scared of nobody cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now. I march downtown cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I marched downtown cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now. And when they brought the dogs out, we added a verse with the dogs and said, "ain't scared of no dog cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. Ain't scared of no dog cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now."HOLLIS WATKINS:
And from time to time, a lot of folks don't know it, but I do a part of the
verse in honor of my father. My father was a noted bass singer throughout that whole part of the state. So when sometimes when I'm singing in the song, I'll honor him and I'll do a verse where I can honor him.HOLLIS WATKINS:
Ain't scared to go to jail cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my
freedom. Ain't scared to go to jail cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now. Ain't scared of nobody cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom. I want my freedom. Ain't scared of nobody cause I want my freedom. I want my freedom now.SPEAKER 2:
All right. Thank you very much. We appreciate that. (crosstalk 00:27:44)
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Hollis Watkins, Part 1 (Completed 06/18/20)
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