Oral history interview with Aaron Wall, 2022

Erin Lawrimore: I'm Erin Lawrimore. Today is Tuesday, September 13th, 2022. I'm at Radar Brewing Company in Winston-Salem, North Carolina, with Aaron Wall, doing an oral history interview for the Well Crafted NC project. So, to start, can we have you say and spell your name?

Aaron Wall: My name is Aaron Wall. It's spelled, A-A-R-O-N W-A-L-L.

Erin Lawrimore: Awesome. So, to start, can you just tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, where you're from, and what brought you kind of to the industry?

Aaron Wall: So, I grew up in a small town here in North Carolina called Archdale, and it's about 25 minutes from the location we set here in Winston-Salem. Oddly enough, I grew up in a home where alcohol was really never 00:01:00present, which isn't all that odd in this part of the country. I finished high school in High Point and then I went to a liberal arts college, Campbell University, and from there, I got into the public relations and marketing field in healthcare. I should say I have one sister who was four years younger than me, and my two parents who were still with us, who live in Archdale still in the same home still. But, anyway, I spent nearly 15 years in healthcare, public relations, and marketing. During that time, I did earn a Masters in Health Administration, and for a while there, it looked like hospital work would be the 00:02:00career for the rest of my life. When I graduated from undergrad, I was given a home brewing kit. It was an Irish stout kit. It was one of those that came in a liquid malt extract in a can, and it's something that I had very much been wanting, and made it. That was around 1999. And for me, for the next 15 years, while I was in healthcare, that was my hobby, and it was right around 13 years in the field I decided, "Maybe I want to do something different with my life, and this hobby that I have is a really big deal, and it's a really fun industry to be around." I, at that point, had met a number of brewers in the area, Scott 00:03:00Christoffel, namely, at Natty Greene's, who to this day, is one of my mentors, and what really pushed it over the edge was Rockingham Community College decides to start the first ever Associates Degree program in fermentation science. Well, at that time, my therapist, who was the chaplain at the hospital I was working at, he saw the article and was like, "I think this could be interesting," and through knowing me as well as he did, knew that a change for me might be a very good thing. So, I started going to night school at Rockingham Community College 00:04:00while working in the healthcare industry. At that same time, Scott Christoffel and Sebastian Wolfrum allowed me to start shadowing Scott at Natty Greene's Production Brewery in Greensboro, starting at 2:30 in the morning. So, there, for a while, I would go into work at the hospital, come home from the hospital, or leave... Excuse me... Leave directly from the hospital job, drive to Eden for the night school. Night school was three to four days a week. Night school would end usually around nine o'clock. I would get home, sleep as long as I could to get up around two o'clock, and drive to Greensboro, and see Scott for as long as I could until the next day's work began. So, I did that for a good while. And 00:05:00Scott, the experience with Scott, and the experience with Natty Greene's, one on ones... We were the only people, it felt like, alive on earth at the time... Sebastian offered me a job, and I did a lot of thinking about it and said, "I think if I'm going to ever do something in this industry," which, by the way, I always wanted... The goal was always to do my own thing. So, working with Scott at Natty Greene's was an opportunity for me to see at a very high level, and I thought to myself, "This is the chance to make the leap." I went from what, at the time, felt like a very well compensated job, great benefits, to making about 00:06:00eight dollars an hour, but that wasn't what was great about it. The great thing about it was I was getting an education that I couldn't get anywhere else. And so, that's how I got into the commercial side of the industry. I worked at Natty Greene's for a little while. I had the great fortune of meeting Jamie Bartholomaus along the way, and TL Adkisson as well, at Foothills. And as fortune would have it, they had an opportunity in their production brewery, and I took that job. And the reason I took that job was not because I was unhappy with Natty Greene's, but it was because it was another chance to see another aspect, another scale, another level of professionalism, not more 00:07:00professionalism, but on a different level. So, I took it, and that also gave me a great deal of experience and knowledge that I just wouldn't have gotten any other way. I think I was there about a year and a half, and a close friend of mine from the Natty Greene's days who had already moved to Asheville and begun working with wicked weed, Joe Pawelek, who is now... Gosh, I don't even know what level... He's master brewer level through the Anheuser-Busch program now. So, anyway, Joe was able to help me get an interview up there for the brand new production plant in Candler, and that worked out. And so, my next job in the industry was actually on the ground floor, commissioning a brand new, 50 barrel 00:08:00brewhouse in the Candler facility for Wicked Weed. I mean, to feel like God has ordered your steps, it feels that way to me. And while I was there, I have to say the group of people that work at Natty Greene's, all of the places I've worked, certainly, but some of the kindest, most genuine, caring people that I've ever been associated with. And to this day, even given what we all know with the transaction with Anheuser-Busch and everything else, to my knowledge, the same amount of care and love goes into every drop they make. So, I'm really proud to be a part of that history. One little side note, while I was there, we started brewing Pernicious on the big brew house for the first time, and I got 00:09:00to brew that first batch with Eric Leypoldt, and as it turns out, that first batch was packaged and sent to Great American Beer Festival, and that was the first silver in American IPA for the company. And while it was not my recipe, it was certainly a joy to be associated with all of that. And so, anyway, I still tell that story.

Erin Lawrimore: Do you remember what year that was?

Aaron Wall: It had to be 2015, I think, something like that, and I take a lot of pride in that, because every time I drink a Pernicious these days, I look on the can, and that little silver medal is still on there. So, I take that one step further. So, I worked at Wicked Weeds' production plant, worked with all of these amazing folks, Walt and Jessica, so many people. I don't even want to 00:10:00start naming, because they're just such amazing folks, and I don't want to miss one, but I decided I've seen enough. And what I mean by that is, "I'm either going to take what I know and start a brewery for myself, or we're just going to work for someone else for the rest." And I decided, at that point, to come back and join some folks who I'd been working with on this idea, and that's how we started.

Erin Lawrimore: Awesome. So, you mentioned... We're going to back up and elaborate on everything... You mentioned home brewing. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but you were involved in the Battleground Brewers Guild.

Aaron Wall: Yeah. Gosh, I'm so glad you brought that up. Even before that, let 00:11:00me say this. Because I was born in 1975, I don't know a lot of things to say of how good of a President he was, but I do want to give Jimmy Carter some credit for bringing home brewing as a legal hobby to the United States. So, thank you, Jimmy. But, so before I even started brewing, I just did some research and find out if, in Greensboro, there was a home brewing club, and in fact, there was. It was just starting. At that time, it was a group of about three or four guys, David Craft, Mac Wiley, Jeff Ziemba... If you know anything about Greensboro brewing, these people, you know them... And Don Goodman, Jim Smith. Anyway, I'm sorry who I forgot, Mike Andrews. So, we started meeting at Red Oak, the 00:12:00original Red Oak restaurant, which was a dream place. I loved that restaurant. I loved the food, loved the beer, everything, and those gentlemen completely took me in. I was just out of college. So, maybe they saw me as a young kid that was almost... I don't know... Somebody they could take under their wing, but they certainly did. I spent many a Saturday at Jeff and Mac's house, and David's, and they really taught me how to brew before I ever got that kit. So, very young, that started in 2000. That started in 2000, and in 2000, it was a couple years after that. I think David was the first President. I became the second President. I am infamously known as the President that instituted dues and 00:13:00changed the name. So, we were the Battleground Brewers, and I wanted us to incorporate an element of learning, because that's exactly what it was to me. So, we changed the name from the Battleground Brewers to the Battleground Brewers Guild. And we said that, "If you want to come be a part of us, it's 25 dollars a year, and we're going to use this money to put on some events and raise awareness about what we do." And so, Battleground Brewers Guild... Cannot say enough about that... Shaped everything for me. In fact, had I not met those guys, I probably wouldn't be sitting here. I mean, those guys gave me a real love of, and belief, that you can make anything you want. And even then, the 00:14:00ingredients, the availability of them was expanding really, really quickly. Now it's ridiculous, ridiculously good, but I'm going over to Jeff Ziemba's house, drinking gose. I had never even heard of this before, and the sky was the limit.

Erin Lawrimore: Do you remember what the brewing store scene was like in Greensboro then?

Aaron Wall: So, just before my time, it was School Kids' Records in Greensboro. I started buying ingredients from, oddly enough, a cigar and bottle shop called the Pipe and Pint, and that's where I got a lot of my ingredients. I started learning from the guys in the club that if you want to do it on a little more frequently, you can save a little bit of money with volume and stuff through the 00:15:00mail. So, I started ordering through the mail. Triad Home Brew had certainly come on during that period, maybe a little later. And Dan, with Dan's Brew Shed, was also part of it. But early on, it was definitely... It was the School Kids' Records, and the Pipe and Pint, and Tobacco USA. Have you ever heard of that store? That store used to be right beside Greensboro Coliseum, and Tobacco USA was this great retail space that kind of sold all sorts of things for small entrepreneurs like restaurants and stuff like that. They also had a really good humidor, and they had an assortment of hops, and grains, and beers, and I hate that that store is gone. I used to love that store, but that was probably the other spot.

Erin Lawrimore: So, you talked about that initial jump over to Rockingham 00:16:00Community College. Can you talk a little bit about that program? What did it consist of when you were a student, if you remember?

Aaron Wall: Yeah, I do. In fact-

Erin Lawrimore: Or, who else was involved as well?

Aaron Wall: In fact, Erin, I forgot to even mention... So, I'll get to that, but before I forget, when I came back from Asheville and was in the process, when we were looking for spaces to do this, because I had graduated from the program, they had need for an adjunct instructor and so I taught several classes in it too, which was humbling and amazing. And sometimes it felt like it was living a life better than I deserve, because this is just, "Can't believe I get to do 00:17:00this kind of thing." But there were some great folks involved with that, that cared a lot through the school system. It taught the basics of pumps and equipment and all of this stuff that we, as brewers, have to deal with every day, and have to repair almost every day. It taught the basics of chemical, chemical interactions, chemical titrations. We talked, and we had classes in depth on fermentation and the behavior of yeast, and the things that need to be present in order to be a good caretaker of the yeast. One of my favorite professors, Todd Isbell, who brewed at Liberty Steakhouse in High Point, which 00:18:00had a great, 20 year run, great beer, Todd Isbell, love him to death. I think he's over in England or Scotland right now, studying more beer. He was certainly the favorite among the professors at Rockingham, and he was tough, and if you thought it was just coming in and, "This is a community college," whatever you thought that was, that level of course, if you didn't study, you weren't going to pass, and Todd wasn't going to pass you just to pass you. And while I was there, it was mostly guys. I think the guys in the class had a real sense of brotherhood around, "We're going to have to get through this," and it was a love-hate thing. You hated how hard it was, but you knew, "This is the 00:19:00difference between you and somebody who just walks off the streets and goes, 'Hey, I know how to home brew,'" I mean, because that was me. And I really, really wanted to have... This is another reason the RCC is so important... I wanted to be able to enter the industry with some level of certification that said, "I know more than, 'I take Zymurgy in the mail,'" and there's plenty of people who have been extremely successful that route. It just wasn't what I wanted. And so, to be able to have something that said, "There is some higher learning here," it's just part of my nature. So, did that answer your question?

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. You mentioned kind of the camaraderie amongst the class. Were there any others in that class who have breweries in North Carolina, are working in breweries in North Carolina now that you can remember?

Aaron Wall: Yeah. I mean, names are not always my ...

Erin Lawrimore: That's okay.

Aaron Wall: I remember David, who owns Hell on Horse Creek, which just changed hands. Jarvis Mudge, I think, was head of some level of production at Foothills Brewing Company. Ryan Davidson was a graduate of that program. He was a full-time brewer just down the street here at Wise Man. He also brewed here with me. Gosh, Erin, there're so many more, and I'm blanking on them, because-

Erin Lawrimore: Roughly, do you remember how many people kind of were in these classes?

Aaron Wall: I think that first class was 12 people, and of the people that hung 00:21:00in... So, that might have been six or eight that actually finished it... All of them had jobs that they wanted it. It was not a question of, "Did they come out with opportunities?" They did. And honestly, I think when Miller-Coors left, that took a lot of wind out the sale, because it was such a wonderful space to be able to get experience in the laboratory, and to go in there and see, "How big can it be?" That was, "This is as big as it can be." I mean, it's-

Erin Lawrimore: The biggest.

Aaron Wall: And we are there with a past MBAA President, who was the president of the plant at the time. We had access to that place. We could drink. I remember he came into class one night and said, "Here, this is Old Milwaukee 00:22:00pre..." Oh gosh, hang on... "This is Old Milwaukee, pre-pasteurization. Here you go, right off the line." And I was like, "This is really cool. By the way, if you don't like the classics like Old Milwaukee, I'm sorry. They're good beer.

Erin Lawrimore: Cindy Vickers there?

Aaron Wall: Cindy Vickers, absolutely. Rest in peace, Cindy, one of my favorite teachers as well. In fact, she and Todd, both of them, gave me the tools that I needed to do it. Cindy led our laboratory, and gave us all of the... She taught us sale counting, all of the higher level things that you needed to be able to run a lab for yourself.

Erin Lawrimore: Well, she and her husband actually opened Greensboro's very first brew pub.

Aaron Wall: That's right. Was that Loggerhead?

Erin Lawrimore: Loggerhead.

Aaron Wall: That's right, and Loggerhead was one of the first in the state too. Right?

Erin Lawrimore: I want to say it was seventh-

Aaron Wall: "Seventh," okay.

Erin Lawrimore: ... In the state. It was definitely one of the first 10, and definitely the first in the Triad Region.

Aaron Wall: No, loggerhead. Loggerhead, I never got to drink it only because I wasn't old enough yet.

Erin Lawrimore: So, we talked a little bit about Scott and Sebastian and Natty Greene's. Can you talk a little bit more about that experience, and some of the joys and challenges that you remember from your time at Natty's?

Aaron Wall: The experience included everything. So, I would be there with Scott from milling the grain, to mashing in, to sending the spent grain out the pipe, 00:24:00and out the building, and into a semi-trailer. One of the things I remember that I thought, "I don't know if I'm ever going to get this," they had this beautiful, 20 hectoliter, German made, vintage, four vessel brewhouse. And the entire controlled manifold was in German, and it just had little obscure little symbols and stuff, and I thought... And it became more a game of memory than it was of knowing what they... It's just like, "You go here. You go here. You go here. You go here," and it's intimidating. And because production brewing... I feel so fortunate to have gotten this on the very beginning... Production brewing, the brewer typically has three to four brews happening at one time, and 00:25:00there's a lot going on and then, to look over at the thing that controls it all, and you don't know what it actually says, it was challenging. And then there was both Sebastian and Scott's reputation preceded them, and you didn't want to disappoint them. And you wanted to impress Scott. You really did, and we did [inaudible 00:25:30] readings, which is the first and last place I've ever done them, but it's an indicator of how well you've lautered, mashed through the grains, and extracted. And we, as the aspiring brewers in there under Scott, we were always like, "How was your [inaudible 00:25:50] today?" And we wanted it to be the best. We really did. It wasn't just ...

Aaron Wall: Scott and Sebastian both helped me see that it wasn't just a game or 00:26:00a work environment where it was, "Sweet. We're in here with beer and it's going to be sampling all day. And after we're done, we're going to go drink some more." It was, "This is a serious scientific endeavor that you had better be wide awake and you better be focused," because the last thing you ever want to do is to go tell Scott, "We're going to have to dump this because I messed up." Because if you did that, you'd then have to go tell Sebastian, and Sebastian would have to make a decision because you've just now wasted so much money that you probably are not going to have a job anymore. Thank God I never did that while I was with them. They did though. Scott and Sebastian both... Scott ran a 00:27:00beautiful little lab that had everything you would need inside of it. So I got to learn that aspect of quality as well. Scott also taught me the finer notes in sensory quality assurance, stuff like that. We would test carbonation on bottles off the line. And I mean, I assumed that stuff happened, but would I have ever seen it? I don't think so. And again, Scott taught me... One of the other biggest lessons that Scott taught me is that brewers by and large are problem solvers because inevitably something is going to pop up that you don't expect. The boiler's going to go out and you're going to have to make a decision. What do I do? Do I keep going? Do I stop? All of that. And critical thinking. 00:28:00Critical thinking and brewing was definitely a gift of Scott's to me. And so... I don't know. That's-

Erin Lawrimore: Well, and that probably... I mean, I know that kind of connecting your past PR and marketing background to brewing itself, it doesn't seem like an obvious connection, but in that way it does.

Aaron Wall: Oh, it's crisis control.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Yeah.

Aaron Wall: Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah.

Aaron Wall: Yeah. And in the same way, Erin, it feels like when something's going sideways in a production brewing setting, because they're all stacked, it feels like a crisis. You are... I mean, your blood pressure rises. You are heightened sense of awareness. It is fight or flight. It is...

Erin Lawrimore: And time matters.

Aaron Wall: And time matters. That is the thing because the clock doesn't stop. And keep in mind, you don't want to be the one with... You don't want to be the 00:29:00one that's messed up and you want to continue carrying forward the standard that's been given to you.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Yeah. So obviously Natty's and Greensboro have changed a lot since that time.

Aaron Wall: Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: But do you remember the beers you were brewing then versus what... I know a lot of the standards are still in place, but do you remember what you were brewing then?

Aaron Wall: I do, but before I go there I want to say... Again, I don't want to... I have to give some credit. Kayne Fisher, Chris Lester. There wouldn't have been a Scott and a Sebastian without their vision. They did it early. They did it before it was really a cool thing.

Erin Lawrimore: And before Downtown Greensboro was a cool thing.

Aaron Wall: Before Downtown Greensboro. Cannot say enough about what they did. Again, without that experience, I don't know that I'm sitting here. So those guys. A lot has changed in Natty Greene's. It has and... Yeah. So things I was brewing at that time. Yeah. The big ones. I love these styles to this very day. Pale ale was a very big deal. It was a bigger deal than IPA. The Natty's pale, Southern pale, whatever you want to call it, that beer when Scott was really... Well, I say when Scott, but in the days, early days before production, when they were really... I don't know. Maybe the dry hops were just a little bit bigger, 00:31:00but it seemed even, maybe it's just my mind's eye, but it seemed even bigger in those days. Amazing beer. The buckshot, brewed swimming pools full of that stuff. Wonderful beer. Wildflower. I can't believe early on in my career I got to brew like a national world quality Belgian wit. I mean, those were the big ones. I remember when we started brewing the Imperials or the Cannonball. I'm trying to think what other stuff. There were some big, big, high gravity... I think it's about the same time Pop The Cap happened too.

Erin Lawrimore: Yep.

Aaron Wall: And so they were also integrating higher gravity stuff as well. And 00:32:00so Cannonball was probably a part of that, which was the double IPA.

Erin Lawrimore: Do you remember if that shift... We've talked to some folks about Pop The Cap. And some places they seemed to have, let's just say, anticipated what was going to happen and they had Imperials ready to go out the door. Do you remember how that was kind of incorporated into the production at Natty's? Like, do you feel like Imperials were planned already, folks were really wanting to go that direction? Or was it just kind of the industry shifted with the legislative change?

Aaron Wall: I don't really have a specific memory around that other than to say as much as it appeared to me that Sebastian kept his finger on the pulse, he probably did know and probably was planning on it. And certainly with a skilled recipe formulary like Scott, knew it would be an easy move for them, but I don't 00:33:00have a real memory of it.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Yeah. And that's probably around the same time that the North Carolina Craft Brewers Guild was getting going and Sebastian was doing some work with that too.

Aaron Wall: That's right. That's right.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. So you mentioned after Natty's you moved over to Foothills.

Aaron Wall: Right.

Erin Lawrimore: Let's talk about some of the same stuff in Foothills. Do you remember any particular stories or joys and challenges of working there when you first moved over there?

Aaron Wall: Yes. So when I went there, my role was much more specifically as a production cellarman. They had a couple of pieces of equipment that I had never had any experience with. So an Italian made Alfa Laval Centrifuge, which is, if you know what a centrifuge is, is exactly what it does. It spins the solids out 00:34:00of the beer as it goes through filtration into packaging. At the time in my career, those were the biggest tanks I had ever been around. They ranged in scale at that time from 60 to 100 barrel. And while I was there, they added 200 and 300 barrel tanks. And it was a 50 barrel brewhouse, so that was the big difference and that was really the opportunity for me. It was scale and getting experience with that. Two of my closest friends out of that experience, Stephen Bethea, who now is a brewer at Sierra Nevada in Chico, and Ian Burnett, who was my fellow cellarman, who is now part owner and head brewer for Brown Truck. And 00:35:00there's a hundred stories that go with those two guys. Matt Dick was another very talented brewer that I worked with while I was there. T.L. Adkisson, as far as I know, he came up with so many of those calculations and formulations to scale up like that and recipes. And it was interesting. It was interesting to see a bigger business operation. And it gave me the information as an aspiring owner to decide whether or not I want to be a regional or not. And it also showed me, as did Natty's, it showed me there's way more to this than just brewing. It's a business that requires intention and strategy and marketing and 00:36:00good human resources and good human relations. And we were big enough then that, yeah, it was us group of cellarmen, there was a group of brewers, there was a group of people who handled nothing but at that time bottling, and then there was a very talented group of folks who were able to package that stuff up and get it in the right truck and get it out the door. And not one piece of that puzzle of logistics could you do without. We would have trucks waiting for the beer that was coming off the line and going right into the back. That's how... I don't... I don't remember the names of the sales staff, but... Well, Dave 00:37:00Goliszek, of course I do. But they did a really good job. So I'm trying to think, Erin, if there's...

Erin Lawrimore: Do you remember some of your favorite beers that were pumped out during that time?

Aaron Wall: Oh yeah. Well, Foothills in general... Jamie blew my mind with Hoppyum. Hoppyum was the first big IPA that I ever had. And it was, if you were going to have a house party, you were it if you had a keg of that. And Jamie being the down to earth easygoing guy he was, this is back before even production, he'd normally take good care of you. So yeah, Hoppyum has always and probably always will be my favorite Foothills beer. We brewed a lot of Torch Pilsner, a lot of Sexual Chocolate. I've seen barrels that were stored at room 00:38:00temp. I've seen barrels that were stored at 38 degrees Fahrenheit. I have cellared and barreled in barreled out; all of it. It was really fun to be associated with that particular project when we would do releases. It felt like you were somewhere. I mean-

Erin Lawrimore: That's what I was going to say. Those early Sexual Chocolate releases were an event.

Aaron Wall: Oh. Yeah. I have photographs of me at those. And the culture of bottle sharing. That was the first time I ever was exposed to that. Tables and tables of other people's beer and it was... It's hard to believe just how much fun it was and to feel like, yeah, this is really cool to be a part of. And in 00:39:00those days, if you were a part of brewing staffs, you kind of... I mean, I still do a little bit, but there's so many of us now. But in those days you felt like a rock star being associated with it. And so it was a lot of fun. It was while I was at Foothills that my good friend and now business partner, I met Eric Peck who started the first tasting room at a production brewery that I'm aware of. And he handles all the operations and retail side of this business. So again, yeah, Foothills experience shaped a lot of what I'm doing now.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. And you mentioned Wicked Weed, too, playing an important 00:40:00part in your career and the time there.

Aaron Wall: Yeah. Yeah. So the one that stands... There's a lot that stands out there, but one of the things that's very, could be considered general, but very profound, what I saw out of one of the primary owners, Rick Guffey. Rick was not a brewer. Rick was just, from what I could tell, a visionary. And he knew how to put together the pieces to make something happen. And I don't remember if he actually said it to me, but he definitely emulated it to me, and that was the concept of scarcity versus abundance. And I remember calling Rick at times, even when I was working on this project, try to get it off the ground, and it was 00:41:00always a mindset of optimism and not fear. And that will always be a very special lesson I take away from Wicked Weed. As busy as that man was... I remember my last day on brew deck. It must have been 6:30 in the morning and I saw him walking across the floor. And he was there for one reason. He was there to come tell me goodbye. And it still stays with me. Eric Leypoldt and Joe Pawelek. They gave me probably, of all the commercial brewing experiences I had, I really started focusing more on, because this was kind of the last step before I came here, really developing, following, and being very disciplined with SOPs. 00:42:00And Eric brought not only a Siebel Institute education, but also Dogfish Head is where he came from. And there was no room for error. If you missed a step, you were going to go back and do it all again. And to this day, I mean, I feel I would feel guilty if I didn't do that myself. You know? It's like every step of the way I think about those experiences because, "So what? You've done all this work and your coworkers have done all this work for you to miss the last sanitation step at bottling time?" Forget it. So that was a big thing about... That was a very big lesson I learned. The other thing that can't be understated is the culture at Wicked Weed and the culture of Asheville at that time, it was 00:43:00one of the great times of my life. I lived downtown, walked to downtown, would walk to the pub. The brewers and the staff were family.

Erin Lawrimore: Had they opened the Funkatorium yet?

Aaron Wall: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: Okay.

Aaron Wall: Yeah, they had. And I'm so glad they did because one of the great benefits of being a brewer at Wicked Weed was you could go in spaces like that and you didn't have to pay. And it's no knock on what I was getting compensated at the time, but it's difficult at times for brewers to be able to afford the products they make. Let's just say that. So one of the great, great benefits was to be able to go into Wicked Weed's Funkatorium and get whatever you wanted. And we did that frequently.

Erin Lawrimore: That's not a bad thing.

Aaron Wall: No.

Erin Lawrimore: That's not a bad... You know.

Aaron Wall: No, you know, within reason. And you're going to have your plan for 00:44:00how you got home.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah.

Aaron Wall: And responsibility was also a part of that culture. Again, Wicked Weed probably was among... In spite of the family like culture, it was also one of the most corporate. And so there were just lines you did not cross and you knew it. And you were glad about it.

Erin Lawrimore: Well, and you mentioned the walkability too. Asheville, that south slope area.

Aaron Wall: Yeah. Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: You've got lots of choices there.

Aaron Wall: Right. Right.

Erin Lawrimore: And lots of places you could walk to.

Aaron Wall: You do. You do.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. So after Wicked Weed, you mentioned teaching for a while. Can you talk a little bit more about the classes that you taught?

Aaron Wall: Yes. Yeah. I taught one of the class. I think the class was basic brewing calculations. And honestly, without brewing and without previously 00:45:00having been taught with Todd and Cindy math... I didn't believe that math was a strong suit of mine. And it was brewing that forced me to get comfortable with algebra and stuff like that. So brewing calculations was a class of mine. To imagine that I would be at a whiteboard showing, mixing formulas, and teaching algebra to other brewers is just beyond the wildest dreams I had ever had. And-

Erin Lawrimore: Did you find it challenging to go from the doer to the teacher?

Aaron Wall: It was. And the other thing that was challenging to me was these night classes were three hours. And I did not want to disappoint my students and have them drive from wherever they may be driving from to have Aaron show up and 00:46:00just feel like it's being mailed in. And so I took it very seriously. I tried to come with good content and certainly go through what was supposed to be taught for the exams that we had. Occasionally, to try and give more substance we would watch if there was a good film or something on it. One of the things I liked to do in my class was take one pioneer of the United States industry per class and give our students a sense of the people who developed this industry. I mean, one of the first ones that comes to mind is Ken Grossman, Sierra Nevada; and Steve Hindy with Brooklyn. And these guys are inspiring. And you can find snippets of them online. And to see Ken and especially Steve talk about it's possible, it's 00:47:00possible in a country like this, and it's possible if you want to work hard and take... I mean, it could bring tears to me now, especially Steve. But so I tried to give the students a sense of coming out of it, knowing the industry that they were going into and who started it and who built it. And what else did I teach? Oh. A big one that I taught and felt really comfortable with, again, because of my experience at the three commercial breweries, was safety. And safety has been drilled in me. And I have seen people get badly hurt by not practicing good 00:48:00safety. And I made it a point in my safety classes to remind my students just how dangerous of an environment this is. You are dealing with intense pressures. You are dealing with chemicals that a single drop can blind you. You're driving these 4,000 pound forklifts around. And then these barrels. What happens when one pops off and wants to hit... I mean, teaching students the difference between doing a sulfur stick in a bourbon barrel versus... You know. Things can explode. And so, yeah, safety was... Safety was fun for me because it was a language that was easier to speak than science and math because they weren't... They were new to me too.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah.

Aaron Wall: The pumps. Yeah. The equipment stuff. Again, being taught by Todd 00:49:00and understanding pump curves and cavitation and the requirements needed to do all the things we do in the cellar, that was another thing.

Erin Lawrimore: Do you remember the equipment that the college had?

Aaron Wall: Yes. Yes. They had a five barrel steam jacketed brewhouse that was created by a North Carolina fabricator, SMT. SMT was Mark Gibb's. I think his father started the company. Mark Gibb also started Gibb's Brewing in Greensboro, but the system at RCC was an SMT system. The jackets on the fermenters were filled with glycol that was pumped by ProChill right here, another North Carolina company. I think the boiler actually came, was a used gift from Pig 00:50:00Pounder out of Greensboro. So yeah, a lot of North Carolina connections just in the equipment we used.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. That's interesting.

Aaron Wall: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: So you've mentioned the desire to start your own business.

Aaron Wall: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: Let's talk a little bit about Radar. Ultimately, what led you to open Radar or to want to?

Aaron Wall: Well, there was always a desire, as I said, going back to shadowing Scott Christoffel there was always a desire to want to do this and be the person or be part of a team that was calling the shots and not necessarily working for someone else's vision. A good friend of mine growing up, Aaron Sizemore, he and 00:51:00I went to high school together. He brewed home brewing as about the same time period I did. He also worked at Natty Green's for a spell. So he also understood the industry and had the same desire. We came up together with this concept of Radar and the idea of it being smaller scale, more variety. And we hoped to open it here somewhere in the Triad. With he and I both having a brewing background, we did not have the operations and retail background. And that's why Eric Peck was such an important part of the team as well. So started looking shortly after 00:52:00returning from...

Aaron Wall: Started looking shortly after returning from Wicked Weed for locations. There were a couple of spots in Greensboro that we thought would work and it just didn't pan out. And I got a call one day from a gentleman named Will Spencer, who owns property in Winston-Salem here. And he had been told to my understanding by Sam Victory who owns and is a, I don't know how many hats he wears at Wise Man brewing, but a lot. Sam Victory and I go back to the battleground brewer days so I've known Sam 20 years as well. But apparently Will had talked to Sam about wanting to try and find an entrepreneur slash brewer that could do something on one of his properties because that was what he wanted 00:53:00to have on his property. And Sam told him about me. And I didn't think a whole lot of it at the time, but turns out, come and look at the property, took several tours. Wasn't even sure this would work and continued looking and things just started falling in place. And it took the three of us, I think it was around two years to do the build out of this space. And we opened in January of 2020.

Erin Lawrimore: What was the space before? Do you remember?

Aaron Wall: So yeah, so before the first time I ever entered this room, there was a collection of old race driven NASCARs. I remember right over in that 00:54:00corner was an old, hairy, gaunt, skull bandit rusted out shell of a car.

Erin Lawrimore: Was it connected to the museum in some way?

Aaron Wall: Well, Will owns that museum as well, the Winston Cup museum. And I think that it was parts and pieces that he just didn't have incorporated yet. And so yeah, it was a lot of different cars. I think there was a Jeff Gordon car in here. I want to say there was a Dale Junior car in here. I don't remember all of them. But that kind of spoke to me a little bit. This is kind of odd. I grew up my grandfather with my grandfather watching or listening to NASCAR every Sunday. And so my grandfather I should say, he was truly the inspiration when I 00:55:00look back on my influences to be an entrepreneur. And so when I came in this space and we saw those cars, it felt like a sign to me. And James Thomas Carter, I felt like was kind of in here with me. And to this day, I still feel his presence if you can handle that. But yeah, it was full of NASCARs.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah, exactly. Did your build out go as planned? Did you have to make alterations? Were there any challenges that you faced along that way?

Aaron Wall: I think the biggest challenge was it goes slower than you think it will, so much slower than you think it will. And you have so much less control over things than you thought you might have. And then sometimes you need to 00:56:00hurry up and make a decision, and that also is challenging. But it was hard work and it was stressful. And there's a point at which you say not everything is exactly like we wanted, but we've got to go cause otherwise we're going to bleed out here. And so we did, we went on January 1st, 2020.

Erin Lawrimore: And we'll get back to 2020 in a minute.

Aaron Wall: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: So how did you land on the name Radar?

Aaron Wall: So that goes back to the days when Aaron Sizemore and I were imagining this and we were looking for of course, a name that had good recall, 00:57:00had some good marketing properties to it. Radar, as it turns out, has a few things that we really liked. So first off, Radar is one of those beautiful palindromes, which simply means it's the same word spelled backward and forward, so that was really cool to us. Like our space, the vision was for mid-century modern, sleek, clean design. As it turns out the mid-century modern design period happened around about the same time the technology of radar was occurring. Personally, radar is an extremely interesting technology for what it does and also when it was developed. I mean, it was in the height of world war II, which is something I love reading about and studying. But the reason it 00:58:00works the best, Erin, is radar is about discovering things that aren't known or aren't visible. And that is what we hoped for for our customers as well as for us as creators. The idea is to develop things that we don't know yet, flavor profiles that may not even exist. And for our customers to also have that same experience with the things that we put in front of them.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Were there other names that you thought of that you floated before Radar or was Radar, did it just kind of pop out?

Aaron Wall: Radar definitely seemed to have legs early on when it came. But I think if I remember we toyed around with a brewery name, I think it was Uno Mas. 00:59:00And it was just one more in Spanish. And I think we maybe even have developed some graphics with it or something. But again, when Radar hit it just, it kind of hit.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. And the graphics, you mentioned that there's a distinctive graphic that goes with Radar, the distinctive font. Is that something that you landed on early to, or was that developed along the way?

Aaron Wall: The original font came from, or the kind of structure of the font, I had found some really old peach crates from Gaffney, South Carolina on the side of the road.

Erin Lawrimore: Not under the giant peach?

Aaron Wall: No, these were on the side of the road. Well, I lived in Thomasville at the time. Side of the road, and the peach crate on the end of it was called Sunny Slope orchards or whatever. And it had this very modern, very sharp 01:00:00typeface that is very similar to this. But that kind of was the idea what we came from. And then some friends, Greg Monroy and Ken Shelton who were graphic artists, they're actually, at the time out of Greensboro, put it together for us.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. So how would you describe what you see as the mission of Radar, especially if someone's unfamiliar with the brewery?

Aaron Wall: Okay. I think that it would be our mission to provide an experience 01:01:00for our customers that is different than something they can get anywhere else. The space, certainly the beer, the aesthetics around you, the music you hear. We used to talk about it in the early days of trying to be very intentional and curating every aspect of it even down to the wine list and soft drinks and the type of service you're going to receive when they come in. And our mission is on all of those levels to provide the absolute best we can. And then I can say now that we'd love to provide that experience, whether it be here or whether it be 01:02:00that you buy a package of our beer somewhere else. Our greatest mission is to provide that mission to as many people as we can. Yeah, that would be great.

Erin Lawrimore: So you mentioned January 1st, 2020 as your opening date. What do you remember about the opening?

Aaron Wall: It was packed in here. We hadn't yet finished our outdoor space, so that space that's really great. That wasn't a part of it yet. But in here, by and large everything is how it was. And we were elbow to elbow. It felt really, really good. I think we had it was either six or seven beers on draft that day. We got really good compliments on the beer. We got good compliments on the space. I remember it was not long after that. TL Atkinson paid us a visit and he 01:03:00sat with me at the end of this bar and he gave me a really good compliment. He had sampled through everything and he just said, "They're all good." And I said, "Thank you." And he said, "That's uncommon for a brand new brewery." And that stuck with me too because TL's opinion matters to me. But I remember it being a bright day that day. I remember friends and family who probably had heard me talk about this project in the past and never really dreamt of it actually happening. The fact my mom and dad standing in this room and actually witnessing us sell beer I make, that's flooring. I still, even now, I can't believe I get 01:04:00to do what I get to do. And not every day is fun, but It's pretty amazing.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. So coupled with that, of course is what happened two months later. Can you talk a little bit about the initial impact of COVID and the COVID restrictions on Radar and how that felt after only being open for a few months?

Aaron Wall: I remember in February or maybe it was January when COVID news was just starting to come out, I just could not imagine it ever actually taking hold in the United States. I thought this is just a blip in the news. We're not going to have to worry about this. Surely God, we have not gotten this far and this is going to happen. And March came around and it was tough. It was a stressful 01:05:00time. It was a scary time. I can't believe I actually have that much emotion around it. But it was stressful on us. And not only did we not fully know what we were doing in the best of times, which we hadn't experienced yet, we sure as hell didn't know what to do in the worst of times. And we didn't. We didn't Know what we were going to do. And so it came down that bars and restaurants had to close and we had conversations. I remember setting right over here at this table about, is that what we need to do? And there's the stress of, we now have people 01:06:00that work for us and depend on us and is all of this just going to be completely for nothing? And we put what felt like the proverbial boot boots on and said, "Well, we can do one thing. We can package beer for, to go and we can still get it in the grocery stores." We never dreamed, or we did. We thought about packaging beers, but two years down the road. But we got, who are now friends, the friends at Tap Hoppers Mobile Canning. We immediately started packaging beer as quickly as we could. We got a pallet of growlers, the 64 ounce glass 01:07:00packages. We bought the Oktober Crowler Seamer, which at that time went into high demand. And then we started fighting for aluminum. And so that is how we were able to keep the doors open. I don't even remember all the details about how we kept staff, but we were able to keep some staff. And then the Guild began working, Rich Green who led the Guild at that time, began working on North Carolina brewer's behalf with the state legislature to make a distinction 01:08:00between breweries versus bars. And I don't know that I saw a difference. I know that after the fact, it felt weird to be able to stay open while our friends in the bar industry, which I have some just down the street couldn't. It felt weird. But I remember saying to my team at the time, I said, "If Rich can pull this off, he will establish the North Carolina Craft Brewers Guild for now till whenever." And I was standing in the room when we got the news and I could not believe it. It felt like we had just weathered a storm. And so that was a big, big part of being able to feel like we could regain some control over creating 01:09:00revenue. And there was a time there that our landlords allowed us to not pay rent for a couple months and that helped us. And we have since been able to of course go back and take care of that. But it was so many people helping out at that time. And just the unknown that was COVID.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Was the outdoor space built out during that time for that purpose or was that always kind of the plan?

Aaron Wall: No. Yes. So COVID really lit a fire under getting that done because outdoor was precious. It is precious now. And as you can tell, I think it's one of the more comfortable spaces here. And so yeah, we as a group knew any 01:10:00investment we could do to make our outdoor more comfortable to our clients or our audience was going to be key.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. So were there changes that you made due to COVID, in addition I guess to the outside, that you feel are going to stick around that have improved the business or at least changed it in a way that's a positive way?

Aaron Wall: Yes. So the fact that it forced us to alter our business plan and go into self distribution much, much faster, that's not going anywhere, that's growing. That's continuing to grow. From that perspective as stressful and as 01:11:00difficult for the business as that time period was, I believe COVID forced us to be a better business. And it's now a part of revenue that we plan on and work toward. The outdoor experience, we get three good seasons in this state, most of which are comfortable to sit outdoors. It's an area we'll continue to try and satisfy that desire of our customers. But I guess yeah, the biggest is the distribution part.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah, I know self-distribution is a challenge. It's hard to find shelf space. Can you talk a little bit about how that worked, especially even 01:12:00during COVID when probably a lot of folks were fighting for shelf space?

Aaron Wall: I wish I could. So Eric Peck, as I mentioned before, my business partner, he handled all of that. So I don't know the specifics of all of it, but I know that he immediately was getting in contact with companies Lowe's foods, unbelievable supporter of North Carolina beer. The bottle shops, Stella brew here locally is one that comes to mind. Yeah. I really don't know enough to speak intelligently to that.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Did it change your brewing at all? Were there changes in terms of what you were making or your thought process behind what was being made?

Aaron Wall: Well yeah, so what I do know is specifically to the grocery stores, 01:13:00the space that we do have, they expect certain things. So that really dictated what we would do more of. For us those are more approachable styles, like the Fruited Gose, the IPA, the German lager, those are three that a grocery store can sell a lot of and so definitely that influenced. We made more of them for sure. And it definitely affects my planning for brewing because of our scale I have to, if we're going to package something in cans, I have to dedicate an entire tank to it.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. And speaking of production, can you talk a little bit 01:14:00about the production size and space here today?

Aaron Wall: Yes. So we are a three barrel brew house. We have three seven barrel Cylindroconical fermenters. We have two three barrel Cylindroconical fermenters. We also have an open fermentation chamber that has positive sterile air being pumped into that as well. But the focus is on the first five vessels that I mentioned. Finished beer production for us, I think we're the first two years in business we've been around between 220 and 240 barrels of production. We're going to exceed that this year. But expanding the scale is certainly a piece in 01:15:00the puzzle that has to happen soon if we want to continue that growth.

Erin Lawrimore: And you mentioned kind of some of the more approachable styles that are preferred by grocery stores. But in the tap room, you get a lot of handles behind you, and so you have more room to play. Can you talk a little bit about that and how you think through filling the taps, how you think through recipes and recipe development and styles?

Aaron Wall: Yep. Well, I mean, a lot of the recipes are things that we have experienced that we want to do our own version of. We do our best to stay very up on trends, the different magazines, the brewers associations, new brewer magazine. Erick and I both attend as many continuing education conferences as we 01:16:00can both locally and nationally. And we do. We use those two three barrel tanks to do more odd, obscure styles with experimental, if you will, recipes, experimental ingredients. Because of our association with the professional societies and the people involved in that, for example, we've done some yeast trials with Lallemend and we get to play with some of their funky new stuff. We've used some of their products like their Philly sour strain that have really influenced and given us opportunities and taste profiles that we wouldn't have 01:17:00previously had. Right now, we're going into the Octoberfest season, I think this is fascinating, we have a classic Märzen style on, we have a classic hefeweizen on, we have a Weizenbock on right now. I say those three, because unless you're in Munich, it's tough to find really fresh versions of those. And so we feel really good about our Octoberfest season this year, that you can kind of maybe get a flavor of Munich in more than just the Octoberfest beer. We have some interesting stuff on right now that includes green cardamom and lactose, and it's modeled to be a mango lassi milkshake, IPA. So I mean, if you can-

Aaron Wall: ... A mango lassi milkshake IPA. If you can dream it and can come close to it in a flavor profile, and then of course with the power of suggestions, sell it, you can do anything you want. But we do, we strive. We don't always have all of the details worked out. Well, I'll say this, our more experimental stuff goes through multiple iterations. That mango lassi beer is several iterations that we've continued to tweak and create it closer and closer.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. You mentioned professional organizations. Can you talk a little bit about some of the resources that you draw on to learn and grow the business?

Aaron Wall: Yeah, I am associated with the Master Brewers Association of the Americas, and I think I've been with that even back since my Natty Greene days. And that to me is my favorite resource because the MBAA, as it is affectionately 01:19:00known, is the technical resource to brewers. And with our access, we have an online forum that we can ask the world of brewers technical questions about and have the highest of high level people respond and give you their experience on it. There's that. There is the broad, broad resource of the Technical Quarterly, which is articles and abstracts about technical brewing subjects. In truth, the amount of information you can get through the MBAA is probably the most comprehensive. That being said, the people associated with the MBAA as members, 01:20:00not only can we do it in the forum, but many of them are colleagues and friends of mine. And if I have technical questions, I can call up some pretty high level folks and get answers that you just can't get anywhere else. There's that. On the retail side of things, we're also a member of the Brewers Association. And I know for Eric, they are very much a technical guide for operations and marketing and things like that. They're also very much a technical guide as well, but we utilize those resources heavily. We view them to be very valuable and we invest in them and make sure that we support them. The State Guild is also very 01:21:00similarly. They're giving both technical and business guidance. And so that's very useful. And then at the very local level, the Triad Brewers Alliance, same thing. It's just even a more localized level. And maybe that even helps us a little more with resources around here. As a rule, if it's not something we don't inherently know, we are not shy at all about asking the people who do know. We want to ask the experts.

Erin Lawrimore: That's not a bad way to be.

Aaron Wall: Because we know we're not the expert on everything.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Thinking towards the future, where would you like to see 01:22:00Radar going in the coming years?

Aaron Wall: I would definitely like to see Radar expand production to a level I would say in the next two to three years that we were more available in bottle shops and grocery stores in the state. I think another retail goal and a trend that I'm seeing that could be good for us, the Satellite Tap Room really has some possibilities and if we can continue to develop our brand, I think that 01:23:00might be an opportunity that we want to explore into. As a brewery that does not have a food component attached to it, one of the things that would really, I think, make us more sustainable in this location would be to add a food element. Our food truck situation is like I'm sure many brewers in our position and they're businesses too. And it's sometimes hard to predict and to be able to bring that decision in house would be useful.

Erin Lawrimore: Well, and that also gives you more of an opportunity even to think through food while brewing beer.

Aaron Wall: Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Collaboration is often a majorly emphasized aspect of this 01:24:00industry. And you've talked a lot about working with other breweries and other people and other businesses. Can you talk a little bit about some of the community events and community collaboration, either within the beer community or the local Winston community that you guys do here?

Aaron Wall: One thing that we've done for the past two years, the Winston Salem Food Truck Festival, we've been able to be the brewery offering at those events. And that's been fun to be a part of that experience with our community. We also participate in things that benefit the Humane Society. We work with the running community as well. We have a race here in December called the Jingle Jog. We 01:25:00work very closely with the LGBTQ community here in Winston-Salem. Once a month, we do drag bingo here. We also do drag brunch, which goes to support Queer Winston. And so that's another aspect that we're involved in. On a personal level, I encourage all of our employees to get involved in our community. I volunteer with the Crisis Control Ministries here. We're in a part of the city that we need to be a part of the fabric and not be an outsider looking in at it. And I think that as a philosophical approach, we embrace that. There was one 01:26:00more. Let's see. Shoot. I can't remember the other one.

Erin Lawrimore: It'll come to you as soon as you start talking about something else. Thinking about the beer here, do you have a beer that you consider to be a flagship beer?

Aaron Wall: I think for us it would definitely be Reflection India Pale Ale. It's an American style IPA. It's got a really strong following from our customers here for us. It won first place in the American IPA category in the state competition two years ago. And I get a lot of flack from regulars when it's not on. I think that's probably the strongest runner for our flagship for us.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Is it your top seller? Or at least one of?

Aaron Wall: I think it definitely yes.

Erin Lawrimore: Are there others that are up there in terms of top sellers?

Aaron Wall: Yeah. Surprisingly a fruited wheat that we do sells really, really well. It's called Dream. The Harmony Gose sells really, really well also. And then we don't keep it on all the time, but we have a Norwegian farmhouse beer called Cipher and like Reflection it's just got a pretty dedicated following to it.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Shifting away from Radar specifically and thinking a little bit more broadly about the industry. Having been in the industry for a while, there have been many changes. Can you talk about some of the biggest 01:28:00changes you've seen to the industry as a whole over your career?

Aaron Wall: Yes. I think one of the big ones, we talked before we started this, we're at a time, I think, we're 40 years into this type of business even being legal in the state of North Carolina and we're over 400 breweries in and counting in the state. It's getting tougher and tougher to break in. And I think for us, it's been a very quick and very necessary learning curve to get the 01:29:00business operations up to speed. I think the regional brewers like a Foothills, like a Highland, I don't know how many more of those we're going to see. It does feel like it's becoming more local, ironically, similar to what I guess maybe Europe used to be, the village breweries. Here in Winston-Salem we have nine now. We just had a new and open, Lesser Known, and they're great. Winston-Salem, all of their breweries are great, but we talk internally and say, I don't know when number ten's coming because we do, we have a good variety of breweries here 01:30:00in the city. They all have their own unique little signature and footprint. And I don't know. Back when we started this, it seemed like there were a lot more people with the idea of going and doing their own thing. And I think through COVID and just through maybe attrition, it's a tough business. And maybe that's not new. Maybe it's just me learning it. But capital is changing. I think less and less you're seeing banks ready to pony up hundreds of thousands of dollars for these projects. And I think that that money now is reserved for projects that have established themselves. And that really feels like the biggest change. 01:31:00I'm happy to say in the period of time that I've been in brewing, I have seen the demographics of our industry change and that feels really good. And oddly enough, I can't believe it. I haven't shaved in six months. I typically look like the classic American brewer, but that image and that look is changing. And that's great. And no matter what it looks like, the fact that it's different, I think is a good thing for the industry. And I think it only makes us stronger. Our professional associations are doing wonderful things to help us to continue intentionally driving that change. And I think those are the two biggest things 01:32:00that I've seen. And of course in America, the styles, sky's the limit. And I'm proud to say, I believe this to be true, I'm proud to say the great lineage of brewing that old world Europe has given us we've taken and now we are the ones that are being viewed as the innovators. And that feels really good. Feels really good.

Erin Lawrimore: Well, and you've mentioned that you do a lot of, I don't know if experimental even is the right word, but uncommon styles here too. Do you have any of those that are your favorite that stand out to you as things you tried and maybe you were a little wary of, but then you got really excited.

Aaron Wall: I'm sure there is. I didn't do a whole lot or have commercial 01:33:00experience with a whole lot of the higher gravity, higher alcohol Belgian styles. Since we get to make the choices on what we brew here, it's been really fun to do those. It is one of the things that we want to use to expand our business as well, because those styles really lend themselves nicely to a package product that can stand some aging. We'd like to do more of those bigger, higher alcohol offerings that people can buy that are meant to be stored and aged and can be gifts. That's one. It blows my mind that we actually try to make 01:34:00cloudy beer now because I did come from Scott and Sebastian.

Erin Lawrimore: Sebastian and I talked about that a few weeks ago.

Aaron Wall: Yeah. I'm in their camp. I would've looked down my nose and go, that just seems like some really poor brewing practice, but it's not. And I've grown to love the hazies and yes, the milkshakes. I don't know if I'd have more than one of the milkshakes, but-

Erin Lawrimore: It's hard.

Aaron Wall: ... But my customers like them, so I make them.

Erin Lawrimore: Do you have a favorite beer here, a personal favorite?

Aaron Wall: Yeah. For the longest time, even back to my home brewing days, I loved making German Hefeweizen and I make it here frequently and it definitely lower in alcohol, very drinkable. If it's put in the right glass and yes, I own the absolute right glass that I bring out when I'm drinking it, it's a beautiful, beautiful experience. The one that I compare it to is when I go to the Sierra Nevada in Mills River, when they have on their Keller Vice that's the only thing I want. As simple and as old a style as it is, yeah, german Hefeweizen.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Thinking about place, do you see anything unique about 01:36:00Southern beer or even North Carolina beer in particular and the beer culture and scene here?

Aaron Wall: Technically speaking, I would say the water, but that's a cop out.

Erin Lawrimore: Well, there is a reason why everyone wants to move to North Carolina.

Aaron Wall: But stylistically, I feel like as brewers, we are so adaptable and willing to try and do things that would never naturally... We want to make the 01:37:00big Doppelbock and Heady Topper has made us want to make you name it. I think North Carolina brewers, Winston-Salem brewers, Triad brewers, I think that one of the beautiful things about it is that they're tough to predict. I think you don't know what you're going to find when you walk into a brewery. Our good friends down the street here, Incendiary, you do not know what might be on their list, but I can tell you this it's going to be good. And stylistically, I don't think we fit any mold. I think we reach and we strive to do as odd and unique as anybody in the country.

Erin Lawrimore: The last prepared question that I have is the one that brewers always struggle over the most. Do you have favorite beer or beers from a North Carolina brewery other than your own?

Aaron Wall: Yeah. Well.

Erin Lawrimore: Things that stand out in your head and I know it's hard to pick a favorite.

Aaron Wall: It might seem obvious, Pernicious. Wicked Weeds Pernicious is certainly one of them. I will say though, I don't get it as much as I used to, I will never forget and always love a good red oak. The history of that brewery, 01:39:00there's a lot of things happening there for me. I have those beers at breweries too. For example, if I go into the Fourth Street Foothills location, they may have 10 different IPAs on, but the first one I'm going to get is always going to be Hoppyum. I'm a purist. I'm predictable when it comes to that. I think though, to answer the question definitively, because of the time period of my life, because of the level at which it was able to achieve success, Pernicious is. When I walk through Costco and see suitcases of it, there's a little part of me that smiles. And there's a little part of me that frowns, because I think to myself, this should be cold stored right now.

Erin Lawrimore: I could see that too. I could see that too. Well, that ends my prepared questions. Is there anything we didn't talk about that you want to talk about?

Aaron Wall: Erin, it is a tough business. You take moments. There are highs and lows of the motivation and gearing yourself back up for what sometimes can be very lean days of the business. And here recently, I have gained some real strength out of the thought when I wake up that as the head brewer and at this 01:41:00point, the only brewer here for Radar, I feel such a sense of obligation to my company, certainly, but the people here and that is what motivates me to focus on quality and to focus on creating the best product we can is because it's bigger than me. And that's a real honor and a privilege. And it's like no other feeling I've had in my entire working life. To say that I don't feel blessed and fortunate to be able to do what I do with the people that I do it, would be 01:42:00untrue because I really do feel blessed to have it. I guess that's the last thing I would say. And finally, Marshall, if you ever watch this, Marshall's my four year old son, I'd love for you to come join me one day. That's the other thing. Having a little boy now, you want to believe that maybe there's something about what their dad does that they find interesting and he may or may not, but I hope he does.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for your time. I appreciate it so much.

Aaron Wall: You're welcome. You're welcome.