Oral history interview with Terri Larae Leedy

WOMEN VETERANS HISTORICAL PROJECT

ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

Interviewer:Tamara ShoveltonInterviewee:Terri LeedyDate: 23 April 2021

[Begin Interview]

TS:Today is April 23, 2021. My name is Tamara Shovelton, and I will be interviewing Terry Leedy for the Women's Veterans Historical Collection at University of North Carolina at Greensboro. If you would, could you please state your name and the way you would like it to read on your collection?

TL:Terri Leedy.

TS:Very good. To start with, we're going to look at your early life. If you could please tell me when and where you were born?

TL:I was born in Annapolis, Maryland, in 1963. I lived in Prince George County and in parts of Southern Maryland. We lived in the cities of Prince George County, Maryland, in my younger years and then we moved towards Southern Maryland, towards a 500-acre farm of my stepfather's, and lived on that for quite a few years, raising horses and cattle and farm life. From the city to the farm life, so that was a big change, rather interesting.

TS:What was it like for you growing up?

TL:My mom always taught me to respect people, and to value work, and to just live life respectfully. She never pushed religion; she always had things open. She had an unusual way of looking at things, so she always had a broad opening; was never narrowed. It was interesting, to say the least.

TS:Now, what did your parents do when you were growing up?

TL:My mother was a stay-at-home mom. My father and my stepfather both worked for the same union hall as iron workers. They both worked in Maryland, and they both helped build the second bay bridge, so what was interesting.

[In 1969, construction began on a new parallel span of bridge to be added to the north of the existing Chesapeake Bay Bridge. It was completed 28 June 1973]

TS:Now, did you have any brothers and sisters?

TL:Actually, I was the only child for fourteen years.

TS:Oh, wow.

TL:Yeah. I have a little sister that's fourteen years younger than I am.

TS:Okay. Where did you go to high school?

TL:I went to two different high schools. One was in Southern Maryland, and then I went to Northern; one was Southern High School, the other one was Northern High School. It was really weird. But I actually finished high school when I went into the service. That was way back when, when you could do that, and I finished my high school at Homestead [Senior] High School, in Homestead, Florida.

TS:What year did you actually graduate?

TL:In 1980.

TS:Okay. What happened from Maryland to Florida that you didn't actually graduate at your Maryland high school? Was it because your family had moved to Florida?

TL:Actually, I was married at fifteen.

TS:Oh, oh. Okay.

TL:I finished night school, and I graduated in January of 1980 in Homestead, Florida.

TS:When you got married, you just quit school?

TL:Yes, and I gave birth to my child. I went in on--in 1979 on a delayed enlistment, I gave birth to my child, finished my night school, and went into boot camp in 1980.

TS:Wow. That is amazing. Just because I've not yet had a veteran that I've interviewed that has told me she got married at fifteen, I don't really have questions set up for that. But I would like to ask a question: What was it like for you being a fifteen-year-old wife in the seventies?

TL:There's a lot of people that, back then, it was a stigma for a lot of people. It is even now. Like I say, my mom, she was more of, I guess, a flower child, you could say, so she was more of a free spirit, and she didn't shy away from it. But looking back on it now, it was tough, but it's a lesson learned. I wouldn't recommend it for anyone, but it has made me tough as I am, and I guess that's one of the reasons I push myself as hard as I have. And maybe that's why I'm an engineer now.

TS:Totally fair. Okay, you were already married when you decided to join the military?

TL:Correct, and he--

TS:Not just married, married and pregnant.

TL:Correct.

TS:My next question is, what made you decide to join the military?

TL:Well, I looked at my mom as a stay-at-home mother, and I looked at my mother-in-law, who was also a stay-at-home mother, and several other women around me, and I'd seen women that, when their husbands die, unable to fend for themselves, and take care of themselves, and basically collapse in on themselves. And I was like, "I don't want to be that person." And I'm glad to this day that I have, because I have found that I've had to turn around and pick up the reins and take care of my children. I've had my youngest child get upset with me because, "Mom, you weren't there."

And I'm like, "Well, mom had to work and mom had a tough job. I was deployed a lot of times and I had to make those choices, but I had to make those choices to put a roof over your head, and I did the best that I could."

TS:Absolutely. When you decided to join the military, did you consider any other options aside from that, or was that just the most logical?

TL:To me, given the fact that I didn't come from money, I didn't really have the resources that I could find to find education or things, and that I had limited resources, limited transportation, and I was in a rural area. For me, that was the logical thing to do. That was the fastest way to provide those resources, to where I could get the means to where I needed to be.

TS:Okay. When you first joined the military, what branch did you initially join?

TL:I initially joined the reserves.

TS:The air force reserves?

TL:Correct, thinking that would just get me in the steps to see if that was something for me; just to see if it was something for me.

TS:Okay. Were you influenced by any outside recruiting posters or recruiting efforts in making the decision for the air force reserves?

TL:Well, I was already living in base housing. I was surrounded by active duty all the time. I hung out with the guys that worked on the flight line. I knew everybody. I knew the acronyms. I shopped at the commissary all the time. I was inundated by it day in and day out, so there was really nothing.

I went and found the recruiter and sat down, and it was a female recruiter, which I thought was really cool, and we sat down and talked. And they tried to get me to go into a job that was working in the TLQ [temporary living quarters] and stuff like that; working the hotel, basically. And I'm like, "No. That's not something I want." And I wind up picking the career that I wanted, and they're looking at me like I have lost my mind, which I probably did, but that career field made me who and what I am.

TS:What career field was that exactly?

TL:EOD.

TS:And EOD is?

TL:Explosive Ordnance Disposal. Oh, and I also have a degree in EOD as well. I finished my degree from the air force college [U.S. Air Force Academy?].

TS:Very good. When you decided you were going to go into EOD, had that previously been open to women?

TL:Oh, no. I was one of the first four women that, actually, was accepted into that career field. There was one reservist, one guardsman, and two active-duty women, at the same time, that took that career.

TS:Okay. We're going to get to that a little bit more. When you first joined the air force reserves, how were women perceived at the time, who joined the military, by the general public?

TL:Well, kind of like cross-genders [occupations] are right now, not very accepted. I mean, it just--I'm sorry, it just has a really bad stigma with women in the service. And still, some people can't to this day, especially in EOD, and back then, there was nothing, as far as sexual harassment policy. Because I remember being in the service and someone making mention that, "What idiot in the office with a bachelor's degree, with some kind of degree, has come up with his sexual harassment policy?" I remember, verbatim, someone saying this when I was in the service.

I had first gotten in, and I remember them saying this, because it came out in a memo, and was like, "Yeah, that's going to stick around." And it did. I mean, it stuck worldwide.

TS:Yeah. How did your family and friends react to you joining the air force reserves?

TL:Oh, everybody liked it. Everybody thought it was great. I mean, everybody I knew was military, so it was like, "Yeah!"

TS:When you first signed up for the air force reserves, what was your initial tour that you signed up for?

TL:Basically, it was the air force reserves. I would go off for boot camp, and then eighteen months of training.

TS:I mean, how long was your contract for?

TL:My contract was for six years.

TS:Okay. When did you actually join, like sign your paperwork, and where were you, to join the air force?

TL:I was in Homestead, Florida. It was September 21, 1979.

TS:Okay. Now we're going to talk about basic training and your assignments, and I know this part is going to get a little--

TL:Up and down.

TS:That's okay. It's so interesting. Normally, we say, when you went to basic training, was that the first time that you had been away from your family? Most people, it's the first time they've left their parents. That's not the correct question for you because, clearly, you'd been away from your family, as you were already married and living away, but you did just have a baby before you left to go to basic training. So the better question, I think, for you is, how was that separation when you had to leave your newborn to go off to basic training for eight weeks?

TL:Oh, that was tough. I think that was the hardest thing in my entire life. I mean, being a new mom was frightening. That was the scariest thing. If I want to say fear--I mean, EOD has its own fears, and I think it has its thrills too; if you're a thrill-seeker, it has some thrills. But as far as fear, that gave me fear, being a new mom. But to leave something that you absolutely found love--I mean, true, true love--and just to walk away from it, it's like your heart just got ripped out of your chest, and it hurts so bad. And you're trying not to show any emotion whatsoever. It's like, "Don't show emotion. Don't let anybody know that you're hurt. You can do this; you can do this." And you're doing self-talk so much, and you just push yourself through it, and it hurts so much. And it's like, you can't show anybody, and you just go through it; you just do it because this is something you're doing for them. And you just want to sit down in a puddle of goo and cry, and you just work through it. And I managed; I don't know how, but I managed.

TS:Now, where did you go for basic training?

TL:Lackland Air Force Base [San Antonio, Texas].

TS:What do you remember about your first days at Lackland Air Force Base when you were in-processing?

TL:Well, I remember being on the second floor, and I remember being screamed at and everything. I was made second squad leader, and I'm like, "Why am I in charge? Who put me in charge? Why am I in charge?" And I'm standing there ready to pick up my bags and put them down and everything, and I'm standing there, and I've got my bag all packed and everything ready to go, and everything that I need. Everybody's told me what I need and everything for boot camp and stuff, and I've got everything packed.

I unpacked it, and I've got my uniforms and everything, because I was on delayed enlistment for six months and I was already issued my uniforms, so I've got my duffel bag and everything. They're looking at me like I've done lost it because they're having me unpack my bag, and they're seeing all my uniforms and they're looking at me like I'm crazy, but it's also got my squadron patch on it. And they're like, "What is this?"

I said, "My squadron patch."

They're like, "You already know where you're being assigned to?

I said, "Yes, I do." [chuckles]

And they're like, "What's going on?" So there was a whole lot of phone calls being made. That was a strange thing in bootcamp. They're like, "Why do you have all this?"

I said, "Well, I had a delayed enlistment. I am reservist, I had to work, and they issued my uniforms ahead of time." So it was a lot that was for boot camp, but I was already prepared for it, and I already knew the acronyms. I had a lot of the young ladies talk to me about a lot of things, and I used a lot of broom closet time because I had some young ladies that really needed broom closet.

TS:Can you explain what "broom closet" is, please?

TL:Some of them just needed independent guidance. It's like, "Honey, we need to talk. Come here." And I mean, yeah, I was younger than a lot of them, I was only sixteen, but I guess because I was more mature, and I was already a mom, and I've already had a home, and an old man at the house, and kid, and I'd already been out there working, they already looked at me like, "What am I supposed to do?"

"Come here. We need to talk."

Or some of them just, really, get stupid, and t's broom closet time; personal counseling.

TS:You were sixteen when you went into the reserves?

TL:Yes.

TS:Wow. Okay. Alright. When you went to basic training, was it male and female together, or were you in an all-female basic training?

TL:It was male and female, but my squad and my sister squad were all females, so we were an all-female group.

TS:Did you have male and female drill sergeants?

TL:Yes, we had male and female drill sergeants, so it was a mixed mixture. I know some squads were male and female, but we were fortunate to be all-female, so it wasn't awkward for us.

TS:What was your living situation when you were in basic training? Did you live in an open bay situation, or was it rooms with three or four people?

TL:Everything was open bay. There was two sets of open bays with two sets of restrooms, and then we had one big day room where we'd actually get together, and we would have to sit on chairs and floors and stuff for talks, and things like that, with the instructor. And then we had our drill pads, stuff like that; one covered area, and the rest was all uncovered. And that's how we, basically, were taught.

TS:Can you walk us through a typical day during basic training; what you would do?

TL:Oh, Lord, have mercy on me. You mean, from 1980? [chuckling]

TS:I know. If you can't, that's okay.

TL:Basically, from what I can remember, it was a lot of drilling, marching, hiking. Mostly, it was marching and drills, and marching drills, and maybe we had time for the rifle range. Or it was marching--It was just camaraderie and maneuvering together as a team, is basically what it was. And we had classroom time, or we had KP [kitchen patrol] time, but it was always camaraderie as a team, or running as a team. It was always unity; is, basically, what boot camp really was. It wasn't individuality, it was working as a group.

TS:No, I mean, I think that's an excellent way to--Boot camp is really about taking the individuals and teaching them how to be a team.

TL:Yeah.

TS:Yeah, for sure. Now, when you finished basic training, you're going to go to EOD training, which is a total of eighteen months. Where did you go for your EOD training?

TL:The first phase of it is in Denver, Colorado; Lowry Air Force Base. That's what it is, Lowry.

TS:Lowry? Okay. Because your AIT [Advanced Individual Training] was so long, your husband and your son, were they able to be stationed where you were at or just visit?

TL:They could visit. He was stationed out at Homestead [Air Reserve Base, Florida], but when it really got busy with him, my mom would take over, as far as my son.

TS:Okay. Your eighteen months started at Lowry Air Force Base in Denver, Colorado.

TL:Right. I think the last six months were in Langley [Virginia], but the first years ended in Denver.

TS:Okay. That first year, you are one of four females?

TL:Correct.

TS:Can you talk to us about that experience of being one of the first females to be in this field, and how you were treated, and how the training went?

TL:See, because I was on the delayed enlistment, and each of the females kind of went through at different times, I was basically by myself. There would probably be about eight or ten of us in a class, and it was awkward. Some of the instructors that already experienced, maybe, one of us already, but some of them have never dealt with females yet, so there was still that stigma, and you'd get this eye roll and everything. I'd have instructors give me bad grades, and I'd have to go up to the head instructor and talk to them, say, "Look, could you please take a look at this?" And just keep a level head. "Review this for me, please?"

Because I've had the head instructor pull me into his office, he says, "Anytime you have a hard time with grades or one of the instructors, just don't say anything, keep your mouth shut, and come talk to me. Stay calm about it." And it worked out fine. He said, "Because you are female, you're going to come up against some resistance." And he was right, and I had to. If I was going to make it through this career field, I had to.

It's like a person that has purple skin walking downtown. You're going to get some strange looks. You might as well be prepared for it, and understand you're going to have to deal with it. Because you're going to get people looking, you're going to get smart remarks, you're going to have things that happen. You're just going to have to be prepared with it, and you're just going to have to learn to deal with it.

TS:Did you experience any kind of hazing from the other students in the class, or the instructors?

TL:I had a few. I had a few. [If] I got to walk up front, stick a leg out, pushed me, shoved me. We're in the bay trying to disarm a mock-up bomb or something like that, and shove. I had one try to pinch me with pliers, and things like that. Just spiteful things. One tried to jab my side with a screwdriver and stuff. Just evil, spiteful things. It's like, "Come on, man. Would you like me to do that to you?" You got to deal with this stuff. You got to be prepared to deal with it. I mean, it's just ugly and nasty.

I've had one try to force his way into my room, and call me a faggot [derogatory term for a homosexual] and lesbian and everything else. And I'm like, "No, I am not. I am married with a child." I said, "I don't want your little raunchy butt." I mean, you just have to do that. And when it comes to that point, I go to the head instructor and let them know. And, of course, the guy gets disciplined. I didn't want that to happen to him, but that does not need to go on in anybody's career. I mean, period. Because who's to say, he's not going to do it to somebody else who's in another career? I mean, you just don't want him to do that to, say, even a nurse that's in another career field; to another woman, period. I mean, he just doesn't want to respect somebody. Because I wasn't going to, and I talked to a friend, which was a police officer downtown, what to do in a given situation? Because I didn't want to get the guy in trouble, but I've seen it through somebody else's eyes.

And, I mean, that was a tough situation, because, I mean, he is a co-worker, a friend, a confidant. You just don't want to get your friends or your coworkers or somebody you go to school with in trouble. But you also have to consider, if he is like this to you, who else is he going to harm? It's in his nature to do that to women, not just because you're in that grouping; you had to look at it that way. And it comes along with the nature of the beast. But yeah, I've been around some tough parts.

TS:When you finished your training in Colorado, then you had to go for the rest of your training. Where did you go, again?

TL:Indian Head, Maryland [Naval Support Facility Indian Head].

TS:How was that? Was it different?

TL:That's where you go for the most intense part of your training, and you actually deal with a lot of live munitions, and a lot of scenarios where you actually get--With compression, you actually feel what it feels like to have something blow up around you, and how it feels on your body, and it's just the weirdest thing. And what it feels like to be in a dangerous situation. That is the more intense part; that gives you the more fearful part. That puts you in a part where--"Why did I get into this career field?"

And I enjoyed the career field. There was parts that were like, "Wow, cool, neat," when you're younger and everything, and then when I got older, after about ten years being in that career field, and I had a really, really super close call with a building coming down in around me, I sat there, and thought after I got done with it--I didn't let anybody know I was so upset--I was like, "What would happen to me or my kids if something happened to me?" I was like, "Who would take care of my children? How would my children be taken care of? What would their lives become without me being there?" And I didn't like that vision, and I knew at that point, I had to start changing things. That's when I started pushing harder into school and started looking at changing what I was doing. And I tried everything I could in the air force to change what I was doing, and I could not get out of that grouping[?]. I mean, I just--It was so undermanned at the time, I couldn't get out of it. Sometimes you just, kind, of regret what you do.

TS:Now, when you finally finished your training, it was fifteen months or eighteen months?

TL:Eighteen.

TS:Eighteen months of training. You have been away from your family, with only intermittent visiting, I'm guessing, at this point.

TL:Yes.

TS:And you're in a reserve unit. You finally get to go back to Florida to start your reserve time, which is one weekend a month, two weeks in the summer; maybe three if you go overseas. You get to be with your husband and your son. What happens now that you're back in your reserve unit?

TL:Back in my reserve unit, I'm there about three months and we go to Korea.

TS:The reserve unit or your husband?

TL:The husband.

TS:Okay.

TL:And I followed shortly after that, off to Korea, off to a new reserve unit in Osan Air Base [South Korea]. They allow me to turn around, and I'm like, "Okay, he's going to Korea. I have an opportunity to go. I'd like to go."

They're like, "Okay, you can do your reserve time. They've approved it; you can do it at Osan Air Base."

So off I go to Osan Air Base, and lo and behold, I get pregnant with my daughter. [chuckles] Well, I get pregnant right before he leaves. She's born in Korea, and I'm like, "Life is not good."

We get back with her. And in the process, I'm working, and I had finished a degree, transferred over to the Navy

TS:Oh no, not yet.

TL:No, no, no, no, the second time I went to Korea. We wind up over in South Carolina, go over to the Air National Guard, went active duty--

TS:Okay, after your husband's tour in Korea is done, you guys come back to the States and go to South Carolina.

TL:Right. He gets stationed at Shaw [Air Force Base], I go to the Air National Guard at McEntire Air Guard [McEntire Joint National Guard Base]. I go active duty.

TS:When you come back from Korea, you're still in the Air Force Reserves? Then you--

TL:I transferred to the Air Guard.

TS:The Air National Guard.

TL:Right, because there's no reserves nearby, so I transferred to the Air Guard. Then he leaves the picture.

TS:Then you're done with that.

TL:We split up. I go active duty.

TS:Okay. You're in the Air National Guard, you and your husband get divorced, and then you go active duty?

TL:Right. And I'm still working on my degree at the time; almost finished. I go active duty. They allowed me to go get stationed at Tyndall Air Force Base.

TS:What year did you go active duty with the air force?

TL:Nineteen eighty-eight? Yeah.

TS:Nineteen eighty-eight, you go active duty with the air force, and then you get stationed at Tyndall Air Force Base in Florida.

TL:Correct.

TS:And you've got your kids with you.

TL:Right.

TS:Okay. And then, you're still in EOD?

TL:Right.

TS:Now you're active duty. What is a typical day for you, as an active duty air force member, in EOD?

TL:I wound up with EOD, and there they also have Prime BEEF [Prime Base Engineer Emergency Force; rapidly deployable, specialized civil engineer unit of the U.S. Air Force] and RED HORSE [Rapid Engineer Deployable Heavy Operational Repair Squadron Engineer (RED HORSE) squadrons; U.S. Air Force's heavy-construction units], and they have the EOD assigned to all that. And they have what else there at Tyndall Air Force Base? They have the Army Corps of Engineers out at Tyndall. Of course, you know those guys, they're out there as well. So I'm stuck with all these guys playing makeshift build a flight line and all this other stuff.

And anyhow, I'm still going to school. And when I get assigned to this--Tyndall Air Force Base--and I'm upstairs with about forty of these people--brand new people--and they put a bunch of us together, and they ask us these weird questions, and they said, "How many different ways can you come up with the number two?"

And people are going, "Four; adding, subtracting, multiplying, and division."

Well, I put the infinity sign, and only one other person in that entire room puts the infinity sign. Well, we're in this room with a mixed bag of people from all different ranks, and I'm but an E-5--okay?--E-5, E-6; just getting my E-6 on at the time. And this guy's looking at me, and we're the only two. This guy is a lieutenant colonel, and he's looking at me like, "How does she know this?" Everybody else has got a different answer, like, "Four; addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division," and him and I are the only one doing infinity. And everybody's looking at us like we've lost our [unclear] minds.

Come to find out, he turns around--is becoming the lieutenant commander for the base--the new lieutenant commander--and he's coming over [to] Prime BEEF and taking over all that, as well as the Army Corps of Engineers and stuff; he's going to oversee all this entire division. And anyhow, here I am, almost finishing my engineering. And everybody's like looking at us--and I also minored in physics. Everybody's looking at us like we've done lost our mind.

And anyhow, being a wise guy, the instructor points to me, he goes, "How?"

And then I explain it to them. "You can have infinite possibilities to be coming up with the sum of two. You have your integers--Possibilities to come up with the sum of two. Period." As far as physics, there's infinite ways.

And anyhow, the other guy goes, "She's right."

And the other guy's like, "Huh? There's only this, this, this, and this."

And he's like, "No, there's not."

Anyhow, we started talking, and going around, as far as engineering and physics and stuff like that. Then he found out that I was in EOD and stuff, so every time that Army Corps of Engineers would build a bridge or a building, they wanted to test the stability of it. He would have EOD come out to see the stability of it and see where it would collapse. He would send me out there to rig it up to see if it would drop, because he knew I knew where to drop it at. So, yeah, he was the one that he'd called on--it was me. So yeah, it would upset the little gentlemen in Army Corps of Engineers. He's like, "Yeah, that's my girl." It was interesting.

TS:That's awesome. Your typical day at Tyndall is just, really, trying to figure out how to mess with the Army Corps of Engineers. I mean, that's what I got from that.

TL:Oh yes. Oh yeah. That was my typical day; "How can I drop a building on somebody's head? How can I drop the house on somebody's sister?"

TS:Where was your next base that you went to with the air force?

TL:After that, I wound up in Korea.

TS:Is this an accompanied tour or unaccompanied?

TL:That one was an unaccompanied tour.

TS:Okay. For the sake of the person who is transcribing this audio/video, accompanied tour means you're allowed to take your family with you; your children and your spouses?

TL:Right.

TS:Unaccompanied means you have to go alone. Generally, the timeframe for an unaccompanied tour is one year.

TL:One year, yes.

TS:You went to Korea. What year did you go to [South] Korea on your unaccompanied tour?

TL:Ninety.

TS:Nineteen ninety. When you were in, where were you stationed?

TL:Kunsan Air Force Base [Kunsan Air Base]; "Wolf Pack" [nickname given to the 8th Tactical Fighter Wing]

TS:Okay. And so, what were you doing in a typical day while you were there?

TL:There, I was out there working as EOD. I was actually running flight line and emergency flight line, so I was usually hanging in a truck on the end of the flight line waiting for emergency hangs. That was it.

TS:What does that mean?

TL:Hang fires [an unexpected delay between the triggering of a firearm and the ignition of the propellant]. Basically, if an aircraft would come in with hang fire. In other words, if a rocket or a missile or a bomb would not drop, and it was live and active, I was the one that would go to the aircraft and deactivate it. Basically, that's all--Basically, that was my job.

TS:Okay. I'll tell you, EOD, y'all are amazing. [both chuckle] I know, for sure, I couldn't do it, but I think you guys are amazing.

You finish up your one-year unaccompanied tour in Korea. Where does the air force send you?

TL:The air force sent me to Alaska, but on the way to Alaska, I had already started filling out--no, actually, they sent me to Alaska, but I had already started paperwork to become an officer, but it was questionable if it was going to get approved, so I started paperwork with the navy. The navy accepted me, but I was already getting stationed in Alaska. The navy accepted me, but I was in Alaska, and they sent me directly from there, as a Joint Task Force, to Desert Storm/Desert Shield. And I just got there. They issued by uniforms, I get sent out to Desert Storm/Desert Shield, I wind up with a concussion, come back to Alaska, leave Alaska, go to boot camp, come back from boot camp, go back to Alaska, finished my master's, get stationed at [Naval Air Station] Whidbey Island [Washington], and begged to get out.

[The First Gulf War, also referred to as the Persian Gulf War, occurred from 2 August 1990 to 29 February 1991. Codenamed Operation Desert Shield for operations leading to the buildup of troops and defense of Saudi Arabia, and Operation Desert Storm in its combat phase, it was a war waged by coalition forces from thirty-five nations led by the US against Iraq in response to Iraq's invasion and annexation of Kuwait]

TS:[chuckles] Alright. While you're in Korea, before you go finish your one-year tour, you are working on the paperwork to become an officer in the air force.

TL:Right.

TS:And because there's no guarantee, you've talked with the navy, and the navy has guaranteed you that if you leave the air force and come in as an active duty in the navy, they'll make you a warrant officer, and yada yada yada, right?

TL:Right.

TS:This process is happening as you get your orders to Alaska. You go to Alaska. Where in Alaska are you stationed?

TL:I'm stationed at Elmendorf Air Force Base. But you got to remember, when I get to Alaska, and the navy approves me, when they shipped me out to Desert Storm/Desert Shield, and I spent 13 months out there, and then wound up in Germany for a few weeks, and then back out there, I'm getting paid regular salary. When I get back to Alaska, and I'm at Alaska working on my master's, now I'm getting paid Bootstrap pay [Bootstrap was a military program that provided financial support tuition expenses for off-duty college education.], which is about ninety dollars a month, just to finish my master's. So now I got to get a job, I got two kids to take care of on ninety dollars a month, to try and finish my masters at University of Alaska.

So I wind up working for Rodney P. Kinney & Associates [Rodney P. Kinney Associates] down in Eagle River, Alaska, as a civil engineer with them whenever they need projects. And then I wound up working for--No, not Cameron & Barkley. What was that dag-gone engineering firm? I worked as a chemist--inorganic chemist, doing percent burns, oils and grease, and also heavy metals; testing for heavy metals; mercury, cadmium, chromium, arsenic, selenium, things like that. If they needed somebody to test oils, I'd do that. And then, for a couple of weeks out of the summer, I'd get an opportunity to go up on the pipeline and do percent burns, oils and grease testing, for them. And I'd make like forty thousand dollars to go up there for a few weeks to do testing on the pipeline and come back. That would carry me for most of the year. I had to make money, somehow, to take care of the kids. And those few weeks, couple of weeks out of the year, the kids would wind up going to summer camp so I could go up there to work. [chuckles] So I found ways to hustle. I did that for the two years that I did the master's, while I was doing the Bootstrap with the navy.

TS:Now, what does Bootstrap mean? What is that?

TL:Bootstrap is where you could actually finish a degree while you're in the service, and you're focused strictly on studies, but you have to give them a commitment in return, and they pay you minimal pay. I mean, they pay you, like, ninety dollars a month, but they paid for books and tuition, but that's all you get paid. You can actually look it up. It's called a Bootstrap Program. It is tough. And I lived in base housing, so I had a roof over my head and electricity, but if I wanted food, phone and gas, I had to go get a job.

TS:Wow. Okay. Well, I am thankful that the military has restructured how they do those particular programs for the active-duty members now.

TL:They don't have Bootstrap?

TS:Well, I know for the army specifically--Who did I interview?--and the Marines [U.S. Marine Corps], and I think the [U.S.] Navy--I think all of them now--What they do now is, you get your regular pay like you would normally get, but you're assignment is to go to school.

TL:Oh, dang, they don't do that to you anymore.

TS:I think they might've realized that was problematic.

TL:Wow.

TS:Yeah, they're much better with their soldiers, in that respect. I interviewed one female veteran, and she was a nurse, and she wanted to go to school, and as long as she volunteered to do the weekend on-call shifts, during the week, her job was school.

TL:Oh, that's sweet.

TS:I know. She was like, "It was amazing."

TL:Because for a while, I remember, I was carrying a full-time school and full-time work with the air force. And, I mean, it would beat me to death, and trying to take care of the kids and everything. I mean, I would--Man, I would drag; I would drag.

TS:Yes. I do say, I think that the military has come a long way in how they have implemented their educational programs for their active-duty members.

TL:Oh man, that is sweet.

TS:That's good. That's good. What I want to get back to is, you're in the navy, you're a warrant officer, you touch down in Alaska. You got to get your naval gear, because your uniform is not the same as the air force.

TL:No, no.

TS:You are just coming back from Korea, so you don't even have your kids yet, probably.

TL:No, my mom's sticking them on the planes.

TS:And then you find out you're going to Desert Storm.

TL:Yeah.

TS:Hopefully, Grandma was able to get the kids off the plane.

TL:My mom actually went to base housing and set up my house with my kids and my sister. They set up my house, and stayed there for almost three months to get everything organized.

TS:And then she took the kids and went back home?

TL:And they went back home.

TS:Wow. Wow. You have a good mom there, for sure.

TL:I did. She was fantastic. She really was.

TS:You have just been on a yearlong unaccompanied tour, and now you are going overseas for--

TL:Thirteen months.

TS:Thirteen 13 months. Did you know at the time it was going to be thirteen months?

TL:I kept extending. The first time I extended, the gentleman canceled on me, and I said, "Well, I'll just do another tour." There was something messed up with the orders and stuff, and I said, "Look, I'll just do another tour. That's no biggie."

The second time, the guy that was supposed to take my spot, "Can you handle another week or two, because he just had a baby."

I said, "That's not a problem. No problem. He just had a baby. I can hang it here another six, eight weeks." Lo and behold, I didn't have another six, eight weeks. I was taken out; that's it.

TS:It was Desert Storm when you first went, right?

TL:Yeah.

TS:Desert Storm/Desert Shield. What year did you go over?

TL:Ninety, '91.

TS:Ninety, '91. Let's talk about the first time you get in country. Where did you actually fly into?

TL:Bahrain [Persian Gulf], I think.

TS:What was it like? Did the military adequately educate you on the cultural differences and significant differences between American culture and the culture you were going to?

TL:Not really. They just, basically, told us, "Women, do not take off your uniform whatsoever. Keep your uniforms on. Officers--" if they could remove their insignias--"remove them. Try not to display any type of ranks, as little as possible." For women, "Keep it buttoned up as high as possible. Keep your jackets on at all times, no matter how hot it gets. Keep your hats on. Keep your hair up and under. Do not display anything. And keep your heads down. Do not look directly at anyone."

TS:They didn't require you to wear a head covering [niqab; a face veil that leaves the eyes uncovered] though?

TL:No. We did not have to wear a hijab [a garment that covers the hair, neck, and all or part of the chest, but not the face]. We had to keep our head heads covered, and our male compadres could speak to someone, but we weren't to speak to anyone. Even if we were in charge, we did not speak to anyone; we had someone else speak to them.

TS:Over the thirteen months, what were you doing while you were there?

TL:Minesweeping for IEDs [Improvised Explosive Device].

TS:Can you explain what goes into minesweeping for IEDs?

TL:Well, basically--Back then, it was way different than what it is now. You had trucks with large sweep arms that would actually extend out and scan the area for anything that's not supposed to be there in the sand, basically. And you had a bar in front of you, too, out there in your truck, like outriggers, and it would scan the area. And you have a couple trucks running in either--and you scan an area, and you just scanned the areas all the way around. And then you have handheld areas, where you could scan around areas you can't get trucks in, and you scan your areas to find hidden IEDs to keep troops safe. And you wind up scanning in areas that are in the middle of nowhere, that you know you're going to have possible troop movement in, and things like this, and it was just day in and day out. We had several trucks, and we had a water truck, and things like this. We pitched tents and things like that, but a lot of times, I slept on top of the tarps of the truck; that was the safest place to sleep.

TS:If you found an IED, what would you do?

TL:We'd disarm it. We usually took the time to disarm it. We didn't have robots back then.

TS:What was the process of disarming?

TL:Well, we actually scan the area. We could usually get a detailed scan in our computer system to see exactly what we had, and then we'd actually poke the bear. We'd actually try to remove soils around it, and create a berm around it, and then see how it was set up, to see what we needed to remove to disarm it, and what wiring, where the secondary and primary blasting units were, and then just slowly dismantle it, basically, and take it apart.

TS:But you're doing this in your protective gear?

TL:Right.

TS:But, physically, you're moving the sand around.

TL:Yeah, you have to.

TS:Because you don't have robots or anything to go in and do it for you.

TL:No. We did have some, and we did send in a few--we had a small rover that could actually remove some of the soils, but we went through so many of them. They were more cumbersome than what they were worth, and, I mean, it would be very, very cumbersome, but they are safer. We could remove some of the soils around it slowly--very slowly--but we had to get access to certain areas to see what we had. And yeah, some of them, we just threw crap at it to blow them up.

TS:That was what I was going to ask you; sometimes it must've just been easier to say, "Okay, this is where it is. Let's see if we can just make it blow up."

TL:Yeah. It depends on how big it was and how much of a charge it had. Sometimes it was just easier. There's nothing around it, it's there to blow up equipment and people, but it's enough to blow up a truck, so let's just blow it up. Yeah. It's just easier to send something in and blow it up.

And sometimes, we'd deliberately send in a little rover and blow it up, and we'd get yelled at. But it's cheaper to do it that way. [Rather] than having to try and dig it up or anything else, because it had such a payload, we could sit back and get out of the compression blast and just blow it up. There's nothing around--there's nothing around for a mile--you get rid of it; just get rid of it.

And I remember one time, "Let's just go ahead and get rid of it." We set off one, it was like a chain event. It must've been, like, thirty of them. We hit one, and it was just one right after the next, right after the next. I'm like, "What in the--" I mean, it was just like they were daisy chained all the way down, and we didn't expect it. I mean, we looked, and none of us even dreamed it was daisy chained, and, I mean, it was just, like, thirty of them. I'm like, "I am so glad that we decided to do this, because that bad boy was just unreal."

But yeah, there's some nasty things out there, and I've had some where--In Korea, I've had it where I've gone into a university, and they actually had wanted a university I've had to disarm. I've had one where it was, actually, in one of those Tropicana [Products, Inc.; American multinational company specializing in fruit-based beverages]--When Tropicana used to be in the glass jars, and it was sitting in a glass jar and had juice about a third of it up, and it had aluminum foil on the top, and it was at the rec [recreational] center on base--at Osan Air Base--sitting on the corner of the counter, and nobody noticed it, and it just sat there and it just sat there, for half a day. Yeah. And then somebody noticed something off and somebody called EOD. Somebody noticed a small little wire that was rigged up to that piece of foil at the top of the glass jar, because it was the oval shape, and yeah, come to find out, somebody had set explosives at the rec center on the base.

TS:Wow, that is insane.

TL:Yeah. That was back in the eighties. People just don't--Or no, was it in the eighties? Yeah, that was back in the eighties; trying to remember which time it was.

TS:Desert Shield/Desert Storm, you don't finish your tour, like, "Oh, it's finished and I'm just going to get on a plane and go home." Something actually happened to you. Do you feel comfortable discussing that event?

TL:Actually, I had a couple of things happen. One time I had a gentleman that had got hit by an IED, and he died in my arms. One of the young ladies on my crew was his girlfriend. I mean, they were having relations, which is not good, but she was actually three weeks pregnant with his child, and he was dying. That was tough. About four months later, I get hit with a compression from an IED, and I wind up hitting a wall and it gave me a concussion. I was out [unconscious] for three weeks. I came to and everybody said I was fine.

I still have problems where I forget. I get anxious, I get jittery, I get nervous, and I have to fight to calm myself down. And for years, I have had a problem, and I did not discuss it with anyone. And the past 15 years were a fight, it just kept compounding, until I finally went to the VA [Veterans Affairs] and talked with somebody. I mean, it got to the point where I literally broke. I could not handle life; I broke. It wasn't a funny thing. It wasn't a pretty thing. And, for me, as tough and as strong as I've been in my life, and as much as I've physically, emotionally, and mentally carried it in my life, to physically say, "I broke," is a hell of a thing. Any vet that has it, is no joke. It happened. Because they said, "Hey, you're doing great. Go on." I mean, they didn't know back then. They really didn't. I[?] said, "Alright. Yeah, I'm fine. Put me back in the game, Coach. I'm all right." Basically, back then, that's what it was looked at.

But, like I say, the anxiety, the frustration. I still have TMJ [temporomandibular joint; term covering pain and dysfunction of the muscles that move the jaw]. If I get too anxious, too tense, and I get too much on me, that's one of the side effects, and it gets so bad, I have to put a bite guard in because I'll crack my own teeth, because I clench so bad, and it's crazy. It's like, "Okay, calm down. Find a calm spot. If you have to walk away from everything, for yourself, it's okay. It's okay. That's not a problem. If you have to turn around and take some medication, it's okay. There's nothing wrong with that." A diabetic has to take insulin every day. There's nothing wrong.

And it's been wonderful, because I still, to this day, every few months, talk with my psychologist and psychiatrist at the VA, and it has been one of the best things that I've ever done. I mean, because everybody can get off track with their thinking, and I have to actually talk to him, it's like, "Am I going over this too much? Am I thinking right?" And I have to stop sometimes. And the doctors have been able to help me out with it sometimes, and gives--

[Extraneous comments redacted]

TS:Sorry.

TL:It's all right. But yeah. Anyhow, it does wonderful. So if I know somebody--Like, my son has a little friend of his that was having a rough time, and I told him--I found out he was a vet [veteran], and I said, "You need to call that 1-800 number. You need some help, and you need it now. Don't be embarrassed. You just need some help."

TS:Absolutely. I think more veterans need to have veterans like you, who tell them that it's okay.

TL:Yeah.

TS:I think a lot of times veterans, we think we can't have those problems, or we don't want to admit to certain issues that we might have because, if you're active duty, it's because you're afraid they'll kick you out, and as a veteran, you just don't want to be boxed into a certain category. But I think it's so important for other veterans to have someone like you that can tell them, "Here's the number. Call. It's okay."

TL:A lot of veterans I know, they're like, "Well, if I turn around and admit that I have PTSD [post-traumatic stress disorder] or something like that, I won't be able to own a gun." And it's like--

TS:Oh my gosh, I hear that one all the time!

TL:I look at it this way: Okay, if you do have PTSD and you don't admit to it, you have a gun and you flip out, and they find out you have PTSD and you don't do anything about it, oh boy, that puts a bad mark on the rest of us veterans that are actually trying to do something for the good, and puts a bad mark on the rest of us that have PTSD that are doing the right thing; those that are reaching out for help, doing the right thing. Why are we being punished; to be put into the same lot as the ones that aren't doing anything? There's got to be a give and take.

TS:Absolutely. When you hit a wall and you had the concussion and you were unconscious for three weeks, did they send you to Landstuhl in Germany [Landstuhl Regional Medical Center]?

TL:I think that's where they sent me. I can't remember the name of it.

TS:That's generally where they send people. You're in Landstuhl for three weeks. You wake up. They're like, "Hey, you're awake. All your test results come back good. Alright, we're going to send you back to Alaska."

TL:Yeah. Everything was fine. They could barely find anything wrong. They were just like, "Well, you just had a surface--You didn't have any fractures or anything. You were just out with a mild concussion. Everything's fine. You were just out of it. They couldn't find anything."

TS:You go back to Alaska, and now you have to go back to basic training?

TL:As a warrant officer, but I actually go with the rest of the officers. Here I am with twenty-some-year-olds, I'm thirty-years-old, and I'm like, "Really?" And then they want to put me in charge again, just like I was in basic training when I was sixteen, and I'm looking at them like, "Oh no, the only thing I need to know is the acronyms. I do not need to be in charge. They need to be in charge. I've had my time being in charge." [chuckles]

TS:When you went to basic training, did you go to the [Naval Station] Great Lakes basic training center, or did you go to Florida?

TL:I went to Florida.

TS:What base were you at?

TL:[Naval Air Station] Pensacola.

TS:Oh, that's right, Pensacola. Now, did you have to do a full eight weeks, or did they bring it down to, "Here's a couple of weeks. You're good." Four weeks?

TL:Four months.

TS:Four months?

TL:Four months.

TS:For basic training? Was it basic training and warrant officer training together?

TL:[nodding head "Yes."]

TS:Okay. That makes me feel so much better. Oh, but now you've been a year in Korea, fifteen months overseas, and now an additional four months, and you still haven't been able to see your kids.

TL:Now you see why my youngest said, "Mom, you're never there." Yeah. Yeah.

TS:You get done with your four month training, they send you back to Alaska.

TL:Right. And now I'm getting paid ninety dollars a month. Yeah!

TS:Now, because you want to finish your schooling, the navy is going to allow you to stay in Alaska in the Bootstrap program, pay you minimally, let you live in housing, finish your schooling, and then when you finish your schooling, they transfer you to where?

TL:Whidbey Island, Washington.

TS:Whidbey Island, Washington. And it's when you get there, you're like, "Well, I'm good now. I've had enough," and you're ready to get out?

TL:Yes. I spent just at two years there, and I've had enough. I'm done. I'm done with the military. I don't... No, no. I did two years there, and it's like, "Just, please, let me out of my commitments. I'm done."

TS:And what year was that?

TL:Nineteen ninety-seven. That was it; I was done; I can't do anymore. I could not go another step. My step with the military was finished.

TS:Do you recall anything specific that led you to this decision, that, "It's time for me to get out. I've done everything I wanted to do, and this is over for me"?

TL:Well, I hadn't been around my kids like I should have. My son was becoming a young teenage man, and he was doing things that I felt was inappropriate. He's a good man now. You know what I mean? And I just felt I needed to get out, I needed to be there; I needed to be with my kids. And they were getting ready to ship me out on [a] ship, and I just--"No, I don't want this anymore. I don't want to be off and gone again. I don't want to be gone again. I don't want it anymore."

TS:In 1997, they let you out of your contract with an honorable discharge?

TL:Yes.

TS:Very good. Spanning your career, from reserves to National Guard to active-duty air force to the navy, in a general way, can you sort of tell us how your relationships were with your supervisors?

TL:When I first--Actually, I had some really good, great supervisors until I wound up active-duty. And when I first got active-duty, and I stepped into the office, I had this one little supervisor--he always had to pick on one person on his crew every single, solitary time--and I walked in that office, and this man looked at me and he said, "Women need to be in the kitchen."

I looked at him and I said, "I don't care where your wife is, but I'm here to work." And he messed with me the entire time I was on his crew. And back when I was in, they would like to take you out behind the woodshed and whoop your butt. I don't know if you ever heard about that. Sometimes you'd just get into a good old fist fight and work it out. Well, he decided to do this with me.

Well, we're out in the bomb dump--it's where they have the igloos and stuff like that--and I was always the one that would have to go out to the bomb dump and cut the grass. Well, I knew where the wood and stuff was laying in the ground, things like that. He decided to take me out by one of the igloos. And being the short, little, stocky guy who liked to work out and everything, he proceeds to take off this shirt, to be the manly man he is. As he does this, I reached down and get the wood that's stuck up underneath the grass. I proceed to whoop his ass. [chuckling] They put me on another crew. That was the only really bad supervisor I have ever really had, as far as the air force.

Now, with the navy, I don't think the navy really accepted women, even in the nineties. They really have a tough time with women in navy. They really do; they really have a tough time with women in the navy. They are few and far between, and even in the officer level, they are even less. Even in my chosen area, was even extremely less. Even though I chose my career field, I really wasn't in my career field--I was more into school--and I wound up working more with the air force. It was really, really weird, and by the time I wound up at Whidbey Island, I was doing more general work with the air crew than I was doing actual work. I don't think they really knew what to do with women.

TS:That's fair. How would you describe your relationships with your peers?

TL:Actually, pretty good. Really, really good.

TS:I sort of have a second question that goes with it. Obviously, I think most people know, even today, in the 21st century, the military is still heavily dominated by males, right? Women are definitely the minority in the military, even now. But in your case, being that you were one of the first four females to be in EOD, did you find, as you progressed through your career, that you were always the only female in your EOD squad?

TL:Oh yes. Oh yeah. And even after being in my career field, most of the time there was only five or six nationwide. Even though there was four of us that initially came in--women would leave and another one would come in or go--but nationwide, on a whole, the entire time I was in, there was only four or five of us at a given time in the entire--nationwide, and--well, when I was either active-duty or reserve, in the entire nation. And I'm like, "This is really odd." And I guess it's just not something women are more interested in going into, so to speak. As I got older, I started seeing a woman or two coming in. And right before I got out of the air force, I think I'd seen two women actually in the career field. It was just really, really weird to see two women in the same room with me, and I was like--and I'm looking at them, and I went [makes gesture]. Anyway, it was just like, "Wow, this is so great." But that was it. But it was just very odd.

TS:Now, you spoke about how during basic training you would mentor some of the females in your unit. Did you do any further mentoring while you were in the military, considering you were surrounded by men, or did you receive any good mentoring while you were in the military?

TL:I had some really great supervisors that were mentors. I guess it's all a give and take with everybody, and I gave it to some--Basically, my mentoring was more with the navy. I had a few gentlemen that were enlisted that were rough around the edges, and I refused--They would make mistakes, and I would write it up, but I would slide it in my desk drawer, and I said, "You have a family, and I refuse to let you screw up enough to take the food off of their table. You owe me, and you owe me in extra work. This is not going any further than my desk, and you're not going to lose your livelihood to hurt your family." And I knew it was because of their age and the wildness in them, and within a few years, they settled down, and they were the best person and the best worker I ever had. I had two of them thank me for it.

Within the two-year time, I'd seen a couple of people, their lives just changed, and it was just a matter of giving them a chance, and their maturity level coming out, because they're young kids. These are young kids coming through, and some of them haven't had the discipline, and this is their first hit at discipline, so sometimes you've got to give and take. I know a lot of supervisors won't, but I'm like, "No." And I'll even make their supervisor step out of the room when I do that, because it's between me and him.

TS:Right. That's fantastic. Did you receive any kind of advanced training or education as your career in the military advanced?

TL:Oh yes. You always get advanced leadership management training, core team building training. One of those things are always, always a part of your advancement trainings; always; that's just a part of it. And then, of course, you always have your materials that you have to study, and materials that you have to study for your rank and your advancement. You have to have your--As far as your core materials, as far as the knowledge for your job, let alone your leadership skills. That's a given. You have to have your advanced leadership skills for every rank that you have.

TS:Was there a school, or any special training, that you would have liked to attended but you didn't get a chance to, or you weren't allowed to?

TL:Actually, I've attended quite a few schools and leadership courses that the military offered. I even finished my explosives degree, which is just a small associates degree, with the Denver, Colorado, [U.S.] Air Force Academy. I finished a couple of management courses, things outside, and the additional courses that I had taken with the Air Force Academy, and, basically, was able to finish a explosives trainings [Explosives Engineering] degree. So, yay, associate's degree in explosives. Yay!

TS:Hey, that is good. How would you characterize your experience as a supervisor, as someone in charge of troops?

TL:I try to find the person that is right most of the time. Not the most educated person, not the most outranking person, but the person that makes the right decision most of the time. Rank is one thing, and that's what the military goes by, but you've got to look at the person that is keen enough to make the right decisions at the right time and has the leadership capabilities. That's what you've got to look for in the person, and that's the person that--when you go for promotions and you go for the annual reviews, those are the ones that you give the five-star annual review to. And that's the ones that you need the "attaboy [informal expression of encouragement]" reviews and things like that; that you need to give more praise to for more promotions and things like that; letters of recognition and things like that. Those are the people that you need to be aware of. Those are the ones that you need to look at. And you need to turn around and find ways to bring out the best in people. Don't criticize them and don't--but don't let them lax either. Try to keep them as proactive as possible, and get everybody to see the big picture.

TS:How do you feel your subordinates treated you?

TL:Most people wanted to work with me. I want them to work with me, not for me. We worked together. I worked and got my hands dirty as well. "This is what we need to do, and this is what we're doing it for." I wanted everybody to know what it was for, not just, "Do this."

"This is our mission. This is why we're doing it. And this is what we're working for."

TS:I mean, honestly, that's the best way to do anything. Did you experience or witness discrimination on or off the job while you were in the military?

TL:Yeah. I'm not going to lie. It's the nature of the beast and, plus, I was down south. Oh boy. And here I am, in EOD, and then on top of that, I was going through civil engineering, and I was the captain of the Non-traditional Careers Club, and I had--my co-captain was a male going through nursing school. Okay, so this is back in--I started out in the eighties. Okay, a woman in the deep south going through engineering, and a dude going into nursing. [chuckles] Yeah, I definitely had my stigma to deal with.

TS:Is there any time where you experienced discrimination, that you can remember? I mean, any type of discrimination is bad, right? I'm not trying to say that this is better than the other, but was there any time where you felt like the way that you were being discriminated against was just more than you could almost handle?

TL:Let's put it this way, I was hired, sight unseen, for a job. I moved to a different location within the state. This is while I was still in the reserves, before I went active duty. I mean, I was literally--this is one of the reasons I went active duty--hired sight unseen, by my resume, well-qualified for the job, come in with my books, get ready to unpack. I'd just went through processing, through the other part of the plant--went through all that--went through the security, everything's fine. I walk in, go to walk into my office to unpack, to start my first official day. The gentleman walks in and looks at me, he goes, "You're a woman. I can't use you." I packed up my box, I walked out the door.

TS:Because when they saw "Terri," they thought male.

TL:Exactly. Packed up my box, put it back in my car, and went straight to the recruiter's office.

TS:Wow. That is intense.

TL:That's what I dealt with in the eighties. That's--And back then, you didn't sue businesses because of that. That is what it was. And, I mean, that was in South Carolina. That was just--

TS:Standard operating procedure.

TL:Yeah. Ouch.

TS:Wow. That is insane. When you think about your time in the military, what changes did you see over your time in the air force and in the navy, in the course of your career?

TL:For one, the acronyms changing extremely. Oh God, the acronyms were completely twisted. The aircraft going from the F4s to the F18s, and just the way they're completely set up. The uniforms, going from the old green--solid green uniforms with the bright colored patches and the bright blue and white stripes for the airmen, and with the bright white stars, to the subdued patches and everything, on the green uniforms, to the camouflage, and then the chocolate-chips [Chocolate-Chip Camouflage (nicknamed as such because it resembles chocolate-chip cookie dough); also known as Desert Battle Dress Uniform]. And now, look at--the chocolate-chip-type is completely changed again.

TS:Chocolate chips, explain what you're talking about.

TL:Chocolate-chip uniform; the desert-type camouflage uniforms. Sorry, we call them chocolate chips. [chuckles] Yeah, I'm sorry, acronyms. But yeah, we call them chocolate-chips; it's the desert camouflage-type uniforms. Because you have the OD [olive drab] green and then you have the camouflage. We call them--For the desert, we call them chocolate-chips because, if you actually look at it, it looks like a chocolate-chip. But that's actually changed, and now you have the one that has actually a more gray, for more-deeper woodland; for different areas, I guess.

But yeah, the way the uniforms have shifted, and technology has completely shifted nowadays, it's like, man, I'd love to be in it now. It's like, "Oh, toys!" But yeah. And I'm sitting there, watching them with the bombs and everything, and I'm like, "Oh God, that looks so awesome;" and technology, and EOD, and the things that they have now.

The biggest thing is, we had this little rover that ran on tracks--like old tractor trailer tracks--and it was like a little Tonka toy. And we might have bomb sniffing dogs. And we had blast blankets that weighed a hundred and twenty-eight pounds, and I weighed a hundred and thirty-three pounds back then. So yeah, a friend of mine, [who] was like six foot, three [inches], come running after me with one of those blast blankets when something was getting ready to happen, and he hit me with that thing, and I fell backwards, and my knees stuck out, and I wound up with shrapnel in my knee--I've still got some nasty scars from that--because that was the only thing sticking out from underneath the blast blanket. I was like--oh man, that knocked me out. But it was hilarious. It was just one of the many stories. Oh God, I've got so many stories from some of that craziness; but yeah, just one of the many war stories.

TS:Do you think that attitudes towards women changed while you were in the service?

TL:Yeah, they have.

TS:How?

TL:They really, really have. They became more accepting, because when I first came in, I mean, they were just like--we were looked at like gum on the bottom of a shoe; I mean, really. And it's like, "Why aren't you a nurse?" kind of thing. "You're supposed to be a nurse or a serving girl in the kitchen or something like that. Why are you here?" kind of thing. Anyhow, now women are accepted in multiple parts, and many areas, in different functions, from radar to any type of technical careers. I mean, they're just accepted in all parts.

I think one of the biggest pet peeves that I had when I was in the service is, women would go in male-dominated career fields, and look at these guys like they're timid and shy, and go, "Can you do this for me?" And it's like, that would set me off on the wrong level.

It's like, "You wanted this job. If you want this job, do this job." It would just put me in the wrong direction. It's like, "Don't do this to women. You want the job, do the job."

TS:Absolutely. In recent years, reports about, and congressional investigations into, military sexual trauma and sexual harassment have increased the awareness of these issues. What is your reaction to the spotlight on these issues?

TL:A lot of us women have gone through these things. A lot of us won't talk about it. It happens. We tend to play it off as if we agreed to it. We don't [agree]. We've play it off for years as if, yeah, we were accepting of it; we're not. It needs to be highlighted, because you're confronted with something that you don't want to deal with, and you shouldn't be put in this situation. If the roles were reversed, men would be screaming. No one should be put in that situation; in a work situation where a man's pushing themselves onto a woman. Even if they, "Come on, it'd be--" No, it's not okay. You shouldn't make someone feel uncomfortable, or required to be with them because of your job, or of a promotion, or because of--if you don't, you don't get a good annual review. No, none of this should happen.

TS:Did you personally encounter sexual trauma or harassment while you were in?

TL:Yeah, I have. A lot of us don't talk about it.

TS:Is it something you would rather not talk about?

TL:Yeah.

TS:Okay, that's totally fine. What is the hardest thing that you had to physically do while you were in the service?

TL:As far as physical strength?

TS:Sure.

TL:I mean, physically--Shoot, I don't know. There was a lot of physically challenging things that we've had to do. I don't know. I was so young back then, so as far as physically challenging, the only hard, hard physical, challenging thing, that I say was actually almost completely impossible for me, was with the EOD troops in the navy. That's when they were with the Navy SEALs, and, honey, that--I thought I was going to die. [both chuckling] Sorry. I was like, "Who in God's name--" I mean, if you've never experienced it, these guys train like--I couldn't explain it. These guys are tough. These guys are nail hard tough. And I tried one day, on a light day for them, and, like, wanted to cry. I mean, it was that difficult. As far as physically challenging, I mean, it just--

TS:Yeah. What would you say was the most emotionally challenging thing you had to do or deal with in the military?

TL:One, was leaving my son when I went to boot camp, and I think it was leaving the air force, transferring active duty, and transferring to the navy. In a way, I really didn't want to go, to be honest with you. I was--In a way, I always think, should I have waited to see if my paperwork would have gotten accepted, to just stay with the air force, or should I just stay where I was at? I just--That was one of my thoughts.

TS:But you made the best decision you could, with the information you had at the time.

TL:Oh yeah. I was in a hurry too. That was my--I was impulsive back then. I'm still impulsive.

TS:Now I'm going to ask you some questions about your views and experiences, having to do with some political things, and if you have answers, great, and if you don't, that's perfectly fine too. You join the military in 1980--well, '79, '80--so president, we would have been leaving [James Earl "Jimmy"] Carter [39th President of the United States], coming into [Ronald Wilson] Reagan [40th President of the United States]. What was your impression of [the] political and military leadership of President Reagan?

TL:I actually wasn't able to vote for Reagan the first time he ran because I was too young, but I did vote for him the second time. I liked his leadership and the direction he was going. And I didn't vote again until--not this election, but the last election. I just didn't vote.

TS:That's fair. I think my mom hasn't voted since Carter.

TL:I understand. I understand.

TS:She's just like, "Eh." I'm going to look at some of the major events that happened during the time that you were in the military. What are your thoughts on--and if you don't have any, that's fine too--the Iran Hostage Crisis of 1979?

[The Iran Hostage Crisis was a diplomatic crisis between Iran and the United States. Fifty-two American diplomats and citizens were held hostage for 444 days, from 4 November 1979 to 20 January 1981, after a group of Iranian students belonging to the Muslim Student Followers of the Imam's Line took over the U.S. Embassy in Tehran]

TL:Lord, have mercy, I don't even remember. I mean, I was a child. You got to remember, 1979, I was fifteen and--

TS:Married, yeah. No, that's okay.

TL:When I got back, I remember the Cuban, Haitian crisis that was coming into Miami, because it was affecting me directly because I was in Homestead at the time. So that was actually there. I was actually there when it happened, and I was seeing what was going on. That was actually a direct impact; I was in the neighborhood, so that was a direct impact.

TS:What about the Iran Contra affair in 1986?

[The Iran-Contra Affair was a 1980s political scandal in the U.S., occurring under the second term of the Reagan Administration, where senior administration officials secretly facilitated the sale of weapons to Iran, which was the subject of an arms embargo]

TL:Don't remember that one either.

TS:That's okay. What are your feelings on the First Gulf War, and Desert Shield and Desert Storm?

TL:It was all a fight over somebody's oil field because they wanted oil cheap, and they didn't want the other--the main oil families to have it, and the OPECs [Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries] to have it. They wanted a free source of oil that they could get away from--out of the hands of the OPEC family; that's all it was. They just wanted to keep a free-flowing source, and we got involved in it.

TS:Do you happen to remember when John Lennon was shot in 1980?

[On 8 December 1980, musician John Lennon, former member of The Beatles, was murdered by fan Mark David Chapman, while signing autographs outside his New York City apartment building]

TL:I know of it, and I know a lot of people were upset about it. I know my Uncle Jesse is a big John Lennon fan.

TS:How about Reagan, when he was shot in '81?

[On 30 March 1981, President Ronald Reagan and three others were shot and wounded by John Hinckley Jr. in Washington, D.C.]

TL:Oh yes.

TS:What do you remember about that?

TL:I remember his Secret Servant [correction: Secret Service] agent, I think, took the shot for him. Yeah.

TS:What do you remember about the [NASA] Space Shuttle Challenger exploding in '86?

[The Space Shuttle Challenger disaster was a fatal incident in the United States space program that occurred on Tuesday, 28 January 1986, when the Space Shuttle Challenger broke apart seventy-three seconds into its flight, killing all seven crew members aboard; including Christa McAuliffe, an American high school teacher who became the first civilian selected to go into space as part of NASA's Teacher in Space Project]

TL:Actually, I was in school at the time. I was, actually, in a class, because I was working second shift, and I was in class at the time when the space shuttle blew up, and the teacher was in the space shuttle; I think she taught history or English or something like that. And I was actually in with my--I was talking with my professor at the time, and it was like--that was an engineering class--because all the different bases and stuff, I took classes where I could--so it was like, "Wow." That's like, "Wow. Dang."

TS:Yeah.

TL:And I remember because AutoCAD [computer-aided design] had just came out, and that was AutoCAD Version 2[.0], and they just added Auto[unclear]; just came out the same day. Sorry.

TS:That's okay. What do you think about the campaign for the Equal Rights Amendment?

[The Equal Rights Amendment was a proposed amendment to the United States Constitution designed to guarantee equal rights for women. In 1972, it passed both houses of Congress and was submitted to the state legislatures for ratification. It seemed headed for quick approval until Phyllis Schlafly mobilized conservative women in opposition, arguing that the ERA would disadvantage housewives. To this day, several organizations continue to work for the adoption of the ERA]

TL:I think it needs to be pushed further. I mean, everybody needs equal rights. I don't care--Melatonin is a simple thing, as far as your skin tone. And we argue over the stupidest things. I mean, that's something--the smallest thing on the human body, and we argue over it. I don't care what color you are. I don't care how much melatonin you have. I don't care if you're a boy, I don't care for you're a girl. I don't care if you're an alien from Mars. It doesn't matter. Everybody and everything should be equal on this planet. We're all on this planet.

[Studies have shown melatonin "has no effect on human skin pigmentation--" Source: Journal of Investigative Dermatology. 1994 Feb;102(2):258-9]

And it's just like--Okay, you've been in the military, I've been in the military. We've probably been overseas. Overseas, [they] have joint bathrooms. I have been in a bathroom with my supervisor. They don't have screening [walls]. You walk in there, he's using a urinal, you walk over to the toilet, you use the toilet, you both walk over, wash your hands, and walk out the door. I don't see where there's an issue. It's just, it is. Everybody makes a big deal out of the bathrooms and gender and all this. I don't know, I guess I was raised differently; I was raised by a flower child. And I looked at things different, and I was brought up different. I was not from the table, if I said any kind of condescending remark over anybody's skin tone or anybody's differences, because we're made the same.

Me, as far as First Amendment rights, everybody has the right. Sorry. And that's just like--I work with a lot of young people, a lot of young engineers, and one young engineer came up to me and told me that he was gay, and he was nervous, because I'm older, he's scared, because he's like, "I'm an older person, gay."

And I'm like, "So? That's what you do behind your doors. I don't care. You're still a good person."

And he's like, "What?" He's expecting me to be all standoffish and stuff.

I'm like, "No, my daughter's bisexual. I don't turn around and shy from her. That's her lifestyle. That's her. That's her choice. I'm not going to dump her because of what she chooses; that's for life, that's her choice. I'm not going to stop loving her. She's still my child, and she's still a beautiful person."

And he's like, "I wish more people would look at it like that."

I'm like, "Thank you. It's that person's choice. I don't make their choices for them."

TS:Yeah. No, for sure. Which leads us into, what are your thoughts on the repeal of "Don't Ask, Don't Tell?"

["Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was the official U.S. policy on military service by gays, bisexuals, and lesbians. The policy prohibited military personnel from discriminating against or harassing closeted homosexual or bisexual service members, while barring openly gay, lesbian, and bisexual people from military service. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" was repealed 20 September 2011]

TL:It is hard to house people, and it's hard to shower people, but it can be done; it can be done. I know some young men and some young women will say, "I'm gay," and, "I'm lesbian," so they can get housed together. But if you put them in a big, open bay, I guarantee you, that won't be going on. And put a watchdog over them. I mean, it's that simple. If you want to be like that, put them in a bay, just like in boot camp, and have a watchdog or camera. End of discussion.

You can turn around and have--you want to be like that? You're going to be in a bay of six or eight, and we're putting cameras up. Done. Now you've lost your privileges of privacy. "Don't Ask, Don't Tell," not a problem. Now you have multiple sexes in the same room, and you can have an area for one person to change clothes, and to shower--you can have a single unit, where you go in there and shower and change, just like a little cube--do what you need to do and get back out. You can make those little cube units real easy.

TS:What are your thoughts about Secretary of Defense, Leon Panetta, removing restrictions for women in combat arms in 2013?

[Women in Combat refers to female military personnel assigned to combat positions. On 24 January 2013, Secretary of Defense Leon Panetta removed the U.S. military's ban on women serving in combat]

TL:Good. You put a woman with PMS [pre-menstrual syndrome] with a rifle in her hand, you're going to find Bin Laden quick.

TS:[chuckles] So true. What are your thoughts about women serving in the infantry or Special Forces or on submarines?

TL:Yes. It should be no different. And it's just like the Draft. If they have to re-enact the Draft for some reason--like equal rights, and women always scream--they want their equal rights--so too be the draft. For some reason, [if] we have to go to war, women need to be on that front line right along with men. If you want to be equal, do the same. Do not make it about just men or women, or say, "Okay, only men here." Make it equal. We are equal people. We are an equal force.

[The Draft; or Conscription in the United States: From 1940 until 1973, both during peacetime and periods of conflict, men were drafted to fill vacancies in the U.S. Armed Forces that could not be filled through voluntary means. Active conscription came to an end in 1973 when the United States Armed Forces moved to an all-volunteer military. However, conscription remains in place on a contingency basis and all male U.S. citizens, regardless of where they live, and male immigrants, whether documented or undocumented, residing within the United States, who are 18 through 25 are required to register with the Selective Service System]

TS:Now, you ultimately decided to get out of the military in 1997 because of your children. You didn't want to go on a ship, you wanted to be with them. When you got out of the service, at that time you were stationed in Washington. How did your family and friends treat you when they found out you were leaving the service?

TL:They were--Some of them were happy, some of them were like, "Are you crazy?" And things like that. Three days before I was to leave the service from Whidbey Island, Washington, just paid off my truck, dropped it down to liability insurance, my place catches on fire. And I'm standing there in my long john t-shirt and socks and everything--because I was in one of those condo-type--or duplex where you can park your vehicle up underneath--and it burns down. Even my truck; it blew the motor out of the truck it was burning so hot. Because the neighbor next door turned around, and was cooking, and it was [an] unattended cooking fire. I lost everything three days before I was to leave, and I asked to stay back in, and they said, "No, paperwork's already done."

TS:Wow.

TL:Yeah, that was heartbreaking. And I was just like--I had nothing but a t-shirt, a pair of socks, and I'm sitting here going, "Really?" And I was supposed to have--The next day I was supposed to have my household goods picked up, and I'm like, "No reason to have that picked up."

TS:After that happened, where did you and your family go? Did you stay in Washington?

TL:No, we went--After all that, I went to Virginia Beach [Virginia] for a little bit, and we stayed in Virginia Beach until '99--July 4, 1999--and then my mom asked us to come-- because she was starting to have heart issues, and she asked us to come to South Carolina, because that's where she was living at. We went ahead and went to South Carolina, and we stayed there. She passed away in 2003, and I stayed there until 2006, and I just--2005, almost 2006--I just couldn't take it any longer.

I left there, and my son asked me to go ahead and come down to Florida with him, to Jacksonville. My daughter was already there. And I stayed there for a little bit, and went ahead--In 2007, I had an engineering job offer up here in North Carolina. And a friend of mine, who was in Florida, has a daughter that was here in North Carolina, in Winston-Salem, and he was like, "You can go ahead and stay with my daughter." She offered to stay--I could stay up here for a little bit on her couch.

And I was like, "Well, that's great, until I find something."

I stayed on her couch for about a month and a half until I found a place to live, and that's how I wound up in here. I wound up working for one engineering firm, and then worked for them for--God--forever, and then I started working with the United Rentals as an engineer.

TS:That's amazing. How was your adjustment to civilian life?

TL:At first, it was really difficult. Like I say, the PTSD did a lot. It really did, for a good fifteen years. I did not want to admit it. It didn't really take effect--I'd say, at fifteen, eighteen years, it really--well, fifteen years, until I sought help. In, probably--about 2013, I sought help. But for fifteen years, right after I got out, it really--I didn't realize I had problems. I mean, there were some problems before I got out, and I started noticing focusing issues, as far as school and things like that, and nervous and jittery and a little bit pressure issues and stuff, where I'd have to push back, just from my desk, and close my eyes. But I'd get jittery and things like this.

But when I'd step out in the civilian world--I'd get to Virginia, and I'm looking for work, and I applied for a convenience store job because I couldn't find anything right off the bat. I go to 7-Eleven and apply, and I have a degree, so I just fill out for a convenience store clerk, and she goes, "You have a degree," so they put me in for 7-Eleven management. So I wind up as a store manager for 7-Eleven. They put me through the training and everything like that. More training. So I wound up being a store manager for 7-Eleven, which is actually a very good company, with excellent benefits, and very good training. I mean, they train you unbelievable. If you ever want to be a convenience store manager, the training there is one of the best I've ever seen.

TS:That's good.

TL:I mean, very detail-orientated[sic], almost like the military. Very specific, as far as, if you ever want to start into convenience stores, that is--they train you, and like they say, they want to take somebody that's new, off the street, and train them, so you don't develop bad habits.

TS:Right? Yeah. That's the way to do it, for sure.

TL:Yeah. Anyhow, I worked with them for a little bit, until I wound up going to South Carolina, and I went to go to another convenience store, and it's nothing like that.

Anyhow, I worked with another company, as a chemist, until they closed their doors; they went bankrupt. I started working with RPKA [Rodney P. Kinney Associates]--not RPKA--Cameron & Barkley [Company], and I worked at the DuPont [chemical company] plant, the Tupperware plant, the Bosch [German multinational engineering and technology company] braking, and--What was that other one?--Cooper Tools? I ran all the supply tools; where they keep their supplies and stuff like that. I did the inventory management systems, and I went from place to place--crazy, crazy work--and was in management and doing all that. But it was interesting, to say the least; just another management system hubs, and supply chain, and stuff like that.

But I stayed with them, and they were an employee-owned corporation until they decided to sell, and they sell it to a foreign entity, which turns around and raises their rates, and all those that industries to get rid of the contract because they raised the rates so high. And the only reason they got purchased them is because they could get cheap electronics, because Cameron & Barkley was like Breitbart[?]; similar to that. But they also did in-house supplies for, and ran the tool prints for, all the different corporations, like DuPont and all that, and Tupperware, and all the different plants.

Anyhow, I did that for a long while, and then once they sold out, I wound up over at another company, as an engineer with Mid-West Spring and Stamping [wire-form, spring, and metal stamping company], and I did the environmental compliance writing with them. That was interesting. And it just took, I guess, bouncing around a bit, and that was all in South Carolina, and it was okay work. And then that company went bankrupt again, and it was just one company after the next. It's like every company I went to, after a while, was going bankrupt, and it was, literally, depressing, just to be the one to turn off the light switch.

And it was like, I kept feeling like I'm the one turning the light switch off on these companies, and I'm really tired of it. And it's like when my mom passed, I was like, I'm really tired of it. And when I went to Florida, I started working for BBRI--Balfour Beatty Rail [Incorporated]--and they lost a lot of their engineers. And then, here I come along, and there's not many engineers, and I'm like, "What's really going on with this company?" And then you could tell, there was a lot going on at one time and now there's not.

Then they bring me on as a junior project manager, and I'm looking through all their paperwork, and there was something really going on weird with this project. Then I started pulling out all the old paperwork, and I'm piecing this project together, and there was a lot of shady work going on, from the past, and I'm piecemealing this project together. Well, these people were starting to freak out, because I'm piecemealing this project together, and there's fake documents, and I'm bringing it to the attention of the other project manager. And he's like, "Holy crap." In other words, somebody's throwing in fake documents and getting false money, and all these other engineers have left, and somebody's been stuffing this project with fake information the whole time. Next thing I know, the company leaves and goes to Atlanta, and asked me if I wanted to move. Well, my kids are there in Jacksonville, and I said no, so here I am without a job again. And I'm like, really? That's when I turned around and took the job offer up here. I have been up here since 2007, and I've loved it since.

But 2013 is when I really reached out, because I was having lunch with a bunch of friends at work, and it got really bad--my anxiety got really, really bad, and I just stepped back, and I was like this [ mimics hunching over], and I balled over, and I'm just trying to breathe, over in one of the corners, in the waiting area up front, at the restaurant. And then one guy kind of leaned over, and had a veterans' cap on, and he goes, "You all right?

I said "Yeah, I'm just getting a little tension off of me."

And he goes, "You got PTSD?"

I'm like, "Huh? What are you talking about?

He said, "You served in the service?"

I said, "Yeah," and we started talking.

Lo and behold, he turns around, and he writes a number, he said, "You need to call this number. I think you might be experiencing, what they call, PTSD."

And I called the number, and she's like, "Are you experiencing--" blah, blah, blah, blah.

And I'm like, "I don't know." And I told her what I--I said, "I experienced it for years," and I told her what I go through day to day.

And she's like, "Hold up. Let me get you to somebody."

I said, "It's just a normal thing for me."

Anyhow, I wound up talking to several counselors and everything, and then they patched me over to the VA that I go to all the time, and they're like, "Why haven't you come to us?

I'm like, "I thought it was just normal. I figured I'd get older and things change."

They're like, "No, this is what this is."

And I said, "Well, I've had it for years."

And they said, "Well, when did you first start realizing it?" And then we started going through history and everything, and we figured it out, and it's tough; it really is. If it wasn't for him actually taking the time and noticing it, and actually noticing somebody actually going through--I can't say it was an anxiety attack, but somebody trying to do self-soothing. Maybe it was an anxiety attack, or maybe it was a severe depression mode. I can't say I was rocking back and forth, or shaking or anything, but just caving in on myself[?] and trying to just breathe.

TS:Right.

TL:Because even being around a lot of people and too much can trigger it, and--which is a shame; it really is. And you want to be with people, but you need solution too.

TS:A healthy balance; yeah, healthy balance. Now, many people consider women in the service to be trailblazers. I would definitely say you are a trailblazer, but I would like to know how you feel about that statement? Do you look at the women who came before you as trailblazers? How do you feel about that?

TL:Oh, definitely; definitely some trailblazers. Those were--Those gals were tough. Those women had it, those women were sharp, and they probably didn't even realize it.

TS:Very fair point. You've discussed how you've used the VA for your healthcare, in terms of using your veterans' benefits. Have you used any other benefits; mortgage benefits to buy a house, or anything else?

TL:Yes, we've used our VA benefits. Matter of fact, we just refinanced our house, just recently, to get an, actually, lower rate with our VA benefits. Because my roommate and I are both disabled veterans, and we refinanced the house together, and we actually are adding solar panels to our house, and we also get a VA discount on that, so yay.

TS:Oh nice. Yeah. I think you also had said previously that you used the Voc. Rehab [Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment] benefits, although it is not called Voc. Rehab anymore; I'll figure it out for whoever. In your experiences dealing with Veterans Administration, how have those dealings been?

[Veterans Readiness and Employment Program (previously known as the Vocational Rehabilitation and Employment Program (VR&E), as well as the Chapter 31 program) provides services to eligible Servicemembers and Veterans with service-connected disabilities to help them prepare for, obtain, and maintain suitable employment or achieve independence in daily living]

TL:With the VA administration?

TS:Yeah. Sometimes, when it comes to, like, the mortgage, that's sort of standard, right? It's like, it is what it is. But in other terms, some veterans experience different things with VA. Some will find where the VA has been very difficult to, like, schedule appointments, or to work with, or to get things done. And so, from your perspective, how have your dealings with VA been?

TL:Well, there's so many different branches of the VA, so you can't lump it all into one. Because there are so many different branches, each branch works differently. I find using my ears to listen to what other vets have gone through, and using them as a resource from their past experiences, usually benefits me to find out the resources that are out there, and how to go about what I need to do; that's helped me. I'm a longstanding life member of the DAV [Disabled American Veterans]. I'm also a member of the American Legions and AMVETS [American Veterans]. I believe in being a part of as many organizations that support vets, especially the DAV. I made sure my roommate is a life member of the DAV. I'm like, "Period. This is for us. We are disabled veterans. We need to be a lifetime member, period. End of discussion. This is an organization that supports members like us."

TS:Yeah. My husband is a disabled veteran, and we really do need to join; we really do need to do that; we really do.

TL:It's not too bad. It's a little pricey to join at first, but it's worth it.

TS:No, I agree. One of the biggest things recently, with the recent conflicts, is the media's attention on PTSD in both servicemen and women. You've talked to us about your personal experiences with it. And being that PTSD is one of those invisible disabilities, that people don't know you have it because they can't see it, and that can make it even more difficult, I think, for veterans who are dealing with it, to move forward. Because people look at you, and you look like everything's fine, so then you get that, sort of, like, "Well, you don't look disabled. Well, why are you parking in a disabled--Why do you get this? Why do you get that?" Because people don't understand that just because you can't see it, doesn't mean it's not there.

TL:Right.

TS:And when you have veterans that are dealing with those invisible disabilities, that's the part of our community that's most at risk.

TL:Exactly. And that's just--I told my boss upfront that I am a disabled vet, and that I do have PTSD, and I sat down and explained to him what it is and what it is like. I said, "Basically, I have--I don't want to say high anxiety--but it's a combination of anxiety and depression, and it's a pendulum, and it can swing." And I said, "I'm trying to keep it at a happy balance," and I have to work at balancing myself at all times. And I said, "My life was never like this, but now it is, and I've got to constantly focus."

TS:Absolutely. How has your life been different because of your time in the military?

TL:I experienced things in life--countries that are no longer countries, areas and life locations, people, smells, tastes, sounds--that most people will never see. I'm around people that never leave this small little town. I'm around people that don't like their own country, but yet, have never been in a third world country and have no idea what it is like; how depressing and how barren it actually can be, and how fortunate we are. I can't explain to somebody where they have crumbling walls, and they actually take rice paste and smear it across the walls and stick a piece of paper up on the wall as a decoration for wallpaper. And they're like, "What?"

I'm like, "Yeah."

Or they'll put foam up on that crumbling wall, and then put rice paste on that, and then put the decorative wallpaper so they don't see the crumbling wall behind it. And I said, "Yeah, that's how they do their walls, because that's the only way they can do anything." And they're like, "Really?"

I'm like, "Really, that's how it is; that's just how it is."

TS:Now, you have two children. Did either one of them do the military route?

TL:Neither one of them, after mommy being gone so much, bouncing them all over the place. My son, he kind of wanted to, and never did. He wanted to, but by the time he did, he was like, "No, I'm thirty-some-years-old, I'm too--" My daughter, she was twenty when she had her daughter, and then, I think, in 2006 she was wanting to go in, and my granddaughter was, like, three[-years-old], and I was like, "Are you crazy? I mean, they've got the Afghanistan war going on and people are dying. They're coming back home with missing limbs. Have you lost your mind? You really need to think things through. Right now is not a good time for you to go in." I said, "Right now, it's dangerous, and you are a single mother." I mean, I had to be upfront with her. I said, "You really need to think this [through]."

TS:Right? I mean, that's fair.

TL:It's ugly, but.

TS:It's better to get the ugly out there, to have a real understanding of what is happening.

TL:And she left Florida, went and worked in New York, became a corporate trainer, and made her money. Now she's back at Florida, and working her job, and just back in Florida, doing her little thing. She did the New York lifestyle, and now she's back to Florida, and she's doing good. I mean, she did good for herself.

TS:Yeah.

TL:I can't complain.

TS:Would you recommend the military to young women today?

TL:Oh yes, definitely. But my pet peeve when I was in the service, was hair. Man, I was like, No. [You want this hair?], or you cut that hair off." I'm like, "You've got enough Dippity Do [Sport Gel] to plaster that thing to your head." [chuckles]

TS:I would say, my pet peeve was hair too, and it still is today. Like, I cringe when I see someone in uniform, and I'm like, "Why is her hair halfway down her back? What is going on?"

TL:Or you got this [makes hand gesture], and I'm like--and you got it swooped, down across--I'm like, "What? What's wrong with you? This is not a fashion statement. No, you're at work. No. Something wrong with you, child." [both chuckle]

TS:When I was in the service, I actually had hair all the way down to my butt.

TL:Oh wow.

TS:But I knew how to put it up. I had some very good sergeants that taught me how to French braid, and how to tuck it up, so once you braided it, you couldn't even tell.

TL:Exactly. But I had some pretty long, wirey hair, but I knew how to get it up and under there.

TS:That is important. What does patriotism mean to you?

TL:I don't know. There's something--Once you serve in the service, and you look at that flag, there's something about the flag when it hits half mast, or when it--the end of the duty day, when that flag comes down, or when you see it draped on a casket, there's a feeling. And it hurts so much that they've taken it out of the sports. Because you don't start your sports with your hand over your chest anymore. It's just that little simpleness. You don't begin it with the National Anthem. Our flag is not there anymore; we are not there anymore. It's the pride of us; it's the pride of our country. It's taking us out of the picture. We, as a nation, we, as the people, that's what we stand for. That's our unity. I'm sorry, if you're going to take our flag away, you're going to take us away.

I know it's a piece of material, but it's--Japan has a thing for their pride and their symbolism, and they're big on it, and that's what keeps their nation together, and calmness and respectfulness. But you're taking that all away from the people here, in this country. So you're losing the calmness, you're losing the unity, you're losing the respectfulness. What are they supposed to believe in? You're losing everything that someone's supposed to look to for belief. You're giving them chaos and anarchy; that's not a good thing to believe in.

TS:No, you're absolutely right. Is there anything, in particular, you would want a civilian to know or to understand about what it's like to serve in the military that they may not understand or appreciate?

TL:Yes, it's a day-to-day job, and it just seems like sometimes it's just--when you're on the base, all the time, and you're not doing war games, it just seems like a dull day-to-day, grindful[?] job. But then you get involved in the war games, and an actual live combat situation, where you act and react within your training, and it becomes an action. And all this training that you've done for this day-to-day dullness becomes an actual reaction that you can do in an instant. It's like a policeman or a fireman. They do this day in and day out training that seems dull and boring, but when they actually have to react to a situation, they can do it calmly, and within control, and as a team, and that's what it's all about. It's the same thing as a fireman. It's the same thing as anybody that has to go into a stressful situation, that they have to react in a split second as a group, as a team, and as a unit. You've got to know each other, you've got to know how it's going to be, and you've got to rely on that right here. Even if it's just somebody new coming in on the base, they're all trained the same, no matter where they're from--everybody's the same--and that's basically what the military is.

TS:I don't have any formal questions. Is there anything else that you would like to add?

TL:I think I ran my mouth enough.

TS:[chuckles] Alright, I'm going to stop the recording.

[End of Interview]