Oral history interview with Dr. Jungho Kim, 2024

Dae TerBush (Interviewer): Today is February 2nd, 2024, and my name is Dae TerBush. I'm joined by Dr. Jungho Kim, Associate Professor of Conducting and Director of Orchestras, to conduct an oral history interview for the University of North Carolina Greensboro's Institutional Memory Collection. So first, I'd like to start by asking some biographical information about you. If you would, could you please tell me when and where you were born and raised?

Jungho Kim (Narrator): Sure. I was born in Seoul, Korea, 1974. My goodness, I'm going to be 50 in a few months, yeah. Yeah, and I could go on?

Dae TerBush: Yeah. Have at it!

Jungho Kim: Right, so I was four years old when my parents decided to go to graduate school in the U. S. So we moved to Tallahassee, Florida because they both went to Florida State. And my parents both studied philosophy there. And I was very young, and we were very poor, so when they would go to classes, you know, they couldn't afford a babysitter. So, and I lived in the swimming pool. So they would put me in the swimming pool with a Big Mac at like 8 a. m., and I would just stay there all day long. So everybody at the pool knew me. And then we lived there for four years, four and a half years, until they graduated were done with their degrees. And then as in, as it's like with a lot of families, especially Asian culture, where my dad's studies were most important, so he I was taking classes, but because we had no money, my mother was working part time as a service, as a server at a Chinese, a local Chinese restaurant, which I believe is still there. I don't know, maybe they have a new owner, but they would, so my mother would work as a waitress there, and she didn't really get to finish the degree. So, when my father finished his degree, we moved back to Korea in 1981, I believe. And that is when I started elementary school again. Because I went to kindergarten in Tallahassee, but then I went to Elementary school, first grade. And I didn't speak a lick of Korean. Because, you know, especially when you're young, languages switch like this, you know. The next week you're speaking something else, and you entirely forget what you were speaking before. So, it took me maybe a month watching TV, then the next month I was speaking Korean, all my English was gone. Then, so I went to school there. I did my military service. All Korean men are required to serve in the military, so I did my military service and went to college. And my first full time job as a musician, I used to play the violin. So, my first full time job as a musician was I played violin in an orchestra for two years after college.

And That's when I came back to the U. S. to go to graduate school in Cincinnati, Ohio, in 2001. In fact, I remember the day I was flying into Cincinnati was exactly a week before 9/11. And I remember looking out the little window on the airplane and looking down. You know, when the Cincinnati Reds win a ball game on a Friday night, they do a little firework. There was a little firework going down there and I remember looking down, wow, this is a really small town. I hope they have internet. So that was 2001. And that fall semester I went to University of Cincinnati for graduate school. And it's where I met my wife. She was already done with all of her studies and doctorate and everything. She was about ready to leave, but then met me, unfortunately, for her. So, I started asking her out. Fall semester, beginning of fall semester. And she kept saying no until spring of 2002, which is finally when she said, okay, let's give it a try. And then we dated every day for Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and I proposed on Sunday. So, that was exactly 20, whatever, years ago now. So, now I currently with live with my wife and we have two boys. The older one is actually, he goes to UNCG, he's a computer science major, second year in college. And then the younger one is a junior in high school. And our little doggie, Kobi. So, that's brief biographical map. Yeah.

Dae TerBush: Okay. So you said you went to graduate school at the University of Cincinnati. What exactly brought you to the University of Cincinnati?

Jungho Kim: Well, so while I was in my first full time job as a violinist in orchestra, a professional orchestra would rehearse every day around 10 a. m. And by lunchtime, we're done. And then the concerts are on the weekend. So Routine, daily routine would look like you go to rehearsal at 10 a.m. and then around 12:30 or 1 you're done. And then you go to lunch. In fact, in my life, music was never at the priority, top of my priority list. It was video gaming. Korea is probably the start of what we now call e-sports. So late 90s and early 2000s was when it all really started. And in fact, my you could say my first job, actually, I was a professional gamer. I played video games at the time it was mostly offline, so I would tour the country and with my teammates. Go take part in offline gaming competitions and made money and go on the cable television, you know, at the time they didn't have dedicated channels for video gaming. But it was more of, like, one or two programs as a part of an entertainment channel or something. So I would go on there and do interviews and play games and So, after the rehearsal and go have lunch, I would go to a PC 방 (Pronounced “Bang”, means “Room” in Korean). PC 방 is what PC cafe. And you go in there and you pay 80 cents or a dollar per hour and there's dozens of PC computers. You go there with a bunch of your buddies and all I did was play video games until the next morning. And then you go to rehearsal and, you know, half asleep, and that is my daily routine. So, late night when I was doing that, my father was a professor of philosophy at Seoul National University in Seoul, and then he was on his, going on his sabbatical year, and he was going to go to Ohio State University. So he came to me and said, Are you going to be 40 years old and be a professional gamer? Or do you want to take this chance maybe and consider studying abroad? Go to grad school or something. So I said, yeah, well, I don't really have any idea, but that sounds like a good idea. So I started looking for music schools in Ohio. And in Ohio, there's at the northern end of Ohio, there's a big Conservatory. Cleveland Institute of Music. It's considered one of the best conservatories in the country. And then at the southern end of Ohio, there's CCM is where I went to school. It's University of Cincinnati College Conservatory of Music. So this was originally founded as a conservatory, but it's now a part of UC, University of Cincinnati. And Ohio State is pretty much in Columbus, back in the middle of Ohio. And as a visiting scholar, he didn't have to go to school or teach every day. So maybe once a week or twice a week. So all he did was really, you know, play golf all day. And commute maybe once a week. So he lived, I lived with my father in Cincinnati. And so that, I never really lived alone by myself. So the first year I lived with my father, and then the second year I lived with my wife. So, yeah, so that's how I ended up in Cincinnati.

Dae TerBush: So it was very family based?

Jungho Kim: Pretty much, yeah.

Dae TerBush: Just because I'm curious, what was your favorite game to play?

Jungho Kim: Oh StarCraft.

Dae TerBush: Good choice!

Jungho Kim: Well, StarCraft was big at the time, and it was played widely competitively. I was a part of at the time, they didn't really have structured esports teams, like professional teams like they do now, like Samsung can, or in fact, some of my friends who I used to play with are now managers of these eSports teams, yeah. So, it was much, I guess, disorganized and they didn't have one big league. They had many, you know, many multiple leagues that you could be a part of. And I, so I played StarCraft from Blizzard, the gaming company, which also made World of Warcraft and Diablo and all that. And then also I played Rainbow Six was a first-person shooter. I was… I was good at it at the time, but when you're 50 years old, your, you know, your reflexes are not, reflexes are not the same, and I can't do that anymore, but I played that competitively as well.

Dae TerBush: Okay, I think that's really cool. I love that. I love video games.

Jungho Kim: Great! I still do. I still build my own children's PC, you know, gaming PC, so I buy all the parts and put it together. It's like, you know, Lego blocks for adults.

Dae TerBush: That is very skilled. I commend you because I could not build my own PC. Okay. What was your first culture shock when it came to living here in America?

Jungho Kim: Well, yeah, I mean, as, because I spent my childhood in Florida the culture shock was slightly different one from what you would expect from an adult coming to the U.S. for the first time. But I do remember some of the My bigger shocks were actually when we first moved back to Korea when I was a little kid. And some of them, of course, language, but also, you know, I didn't know how to use a chopstick. Or, you know, my classmates, you know, would look at me like, this guy doesn't, is he an idiot? He can't say anything, he doesn't know it. But I was like a head taller than everybody else, so they wouldn't complain in front of me because I would just punch them in their face. But so that was the kind of shock was mostly in academia because, namely, math. Now, I remember when I was young in Tallahassee, Florida, I was one of the geniuses of the place. In fact, I think they did some kind of an Intelligence test, I think, maybe IQ test or something, but I scored so high, so the testing institution sent people to, to meet my parents, and we need to discuss about your child's future. So I, because I scored in the 1,000th percentile or whatever it was. But when I moved, when we moved to Korea, I was an idiot. In math, I remember specifically the, the additives, you know, they were doing two, two digits, like 12 plus 16, or. In Florida, I was, the answer of an additive question would not exceed 10. It was 2 plus 7, or. And I specifically remember sitting on the floor in kindergarten in Tallahassee, and the teacher were, was explaining to us the idea, the concept of how do you add something. And these are six/seven-year-olds on the floor discussing philosophically about what it means to add something. And at the end of that class the teacher asked us, there were maybe five, six kids on the floor, Okay, what, what happens if you add one plus zero? And these are six-year-olds. No, that question doesn't make any sense. And one kid goes, Oh, it's, it's one I know. My mom told me. It was the, the foundation of the idea of to add something. It was more of a philosophical discussion that we were having with six-year-olds. But in Korea, there is no such thing. It's like a calculator, a machine. The thoughts about the fundamental idea or philosophy between Behind, to add something or add, to take something away, is not a part of math class. And naturally the competition, of course, is so high. When I took my first math test in Korea after we moved, I specifically remember there were 20 questions and I got 16 of them wrong. only four that I got right, was the, were the ones that the answer did not exceed 10 . Yeah. And my teacher, you know, called my mom and my mom had to go talk to the teacher. And so that was the kind of shock how, and I also remember the, of the 16 questions that I got wrong, I was off by one because I invented my own way to come to this result. And I was wrong, obviously in the, in the, you know, process of doing it. So. Those were the kind of memories that I have from the shock. It's, you know, it's the act of learning and teaching was completely based on a different idea. Later on, when I decided I'm going to be a violinist and a musician I went to one of those arts high schools, like, you know, Interlochen in Michigan here. So we had three majors in high school, dance, music, and art. So I was a violin major in high school, and I would practice 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 hours a day. Because I had to play better than the kid next to me. And if I didn't play better than the kid next to me, then people would ask me, why are you doing this? It goes directly to the motivation or the core reason that you are in it for. And that was a shock when I came back to the U. S. in 2001 to go to grad school. Most of my undergraduate American friends were not anywhere as good in terms of technical ability, musical ability in playing their instruments. However, they were happy. Because their biggest motivation is, this is what I want to do with my life, this is what I like to do, this is what I love about music, or so, their biggest motivation is because this is, you know, out of, out of my enthusiasm or love for the arts, you know. I think now there has to be a balance between the two. Between the discipline of it, and then your heart, where your heart lies, your passion, your dream, you know. So, when it's combined with those two things, I think that is when I see the biggest success. And it's hard to achieve. But culturally, I think the harsh competition and the discipline that is required for the work that is required to get to a certain level. is apparent in the Korean culture that I come from. I think you could say in a lot of Asian cultures that kind of drive, the academic thirst, academic thirst is very important. Whereas my American friends, the free-spirited, artistic creativity is, is, it's different and it's as important. And those two combined, I think that is the most For me, in music at least. Ideal educational goal. Sorry, I went on outside of your realm of question, but yeah.

Dae TerBush: Oh no, I think that was an excellent answer. Because, I mean, regardless of where the shock is located, like it is a shock.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, exactly.

Dae TerBush: I mean, coming back to America and being like, wow, I can calm down a little bit is a type of shock.

Jungho Kim: Yeah.

Dae TerBush: Is there anything you miss about living in South Korea?

Jungho Kim: Yeah, food!

Dae TerBush: Mmm, 음식! (Pronounced “Um-shik”, means “Food” in Korean)

Jungho Kim: Yeah, food and my friends from childhood, you know. As we get older, I think majority of the people that I meet are from professional relationships. It's harder to make friends similar to when you were making friends when you were a child. It's different, you know. And so the friends that I made in my childhood in Korea, you know, it's hard to have similar or recreate that kind of relationship in adulthood. So that's food and my friends. Those are probably the two biggest things. If there's anything else… the well rounded four seasons. It's pretty much, you know, three months each season. And the, you know, fall time and the spring time are absolutely gorgeous and beautiful. Culturally, I think maybe one of the things I miss a little bit is the extreme is that oftentimes my Korean friends would confuse personal relationship with professional relationship. So, an extreme example would be, Okay, you're hired because you know my sister. As a, as, whereas my American friends are very good at separating the two. In fact, one of my first My first full time job as a conductor was, I was an assistant conductor of a professional orchestra. And the first rehearsal, I remember in the rehearsal thinking, how do I tell the second horn player that he's out of tune? I just played golf with him yesterday. I didn't know how to maneuver this, this professional and personal relationships. So if there is anything that I miss from Korea, it's the positive side of that, where there is this flexibility and kind of a mix where It's not all cut and dry, you know, give and take or, or transactional, you know. And not that it is in America, in our country in the U. S., but also there is this, I think, line is a little different. So that is maybe one of the things I miss, you know.

Dae TerBush: Gotcha. What is your fondest memory of your home country?

Jungho Kim: Gaming.

Dae TerBush: PC 방.

Jungho Kim: Yes, yes, yeah. You know, I think it's the, probably the culture of communal experience. When Korean food, for example, the, the food itself is Sharing a meal is a very communal experience, where you have a lot of, you know, you do have your own bowl of rice and a soup, yes, but all of the side dishes, what they call “반찬” (Pronounced “Banchan”), is all shared, you know. And also one of the little shocks that, you know, when I go to a restaurant with my American friends, you have your own thing, you know, and this is mine and that is yours. It's very clear, you know. But When my Korean friends go to a restaurant, hey, let's make a list of everything that you, what you want, what you want to do. Let's all order them and we're all going to share everything. That's often the time. Oh, you want pasta? You want, you know, noodles? And we're going to order both and we're going to have a little bit of it. I want more spicy. I want less spicy. Then we're going to, you know, share. So, like even Korean barbecue, for example. You have a big what is it, like a grill in the middle of the table and everybody's cooking their own meat and it's a very communal experience where you're cooking together and making it together and, of course, sharing the food. So that is, kind of, also common, not in just food, you know, but also in a lot of things. Like, when the coronavirus happened, you know, the COVID-19. The, the, the politicians or the governors or, or the, you know, the, the government says, okay, we have to wear a mask, you know, then these people wear a mask, not because so it's, it's the idea that I am willing to sacrifice a little bit of my own you know, inconvenience. For the betterment of our community. So, you know, I think there are numbers, you know, but More than 90 or whatever percent would just wear a mask even outdoors and you know, you could say “Oh, how could you just blindly follow, you know, what the government tells you to do?” Well, I guess Korea specifically they have less of a reason to not trust the government? And it is also true that in the short history after the Second World War, it was really the people, two of the past Korean presidents are in jail. Well, at least went to jail. Because of the people not rioting or violence, but million people would go onto the streets with a candlelight. And that brought change, real change. So, I think people have a little more faith in their government and how their own ideas as people out of the body of citizens could change, make change in the government. So, that would be a one of the, one of the differences I find more and more as I, Approach 50 years old.

Dae TerBush: So, the last question is actually related to food. I know we talked about food a lot. I love Korean food. So, I wanted to know what your favorite dish was that your mom would prepare for you?

Jungho Kim: Oh, yeah. Yeah. You know, well, too many. My mom still lives near Seoul. And you know, moms are stubborn. So, my younger brother, who is in Busan. So, Busan is the, probably the second biggest city, city in Korea, and it's at the southern end of South Korea. So he's living there with his family, with his wife and two daughters. He teaches, he actually teaches English at Busan University, which is one of the national universities. But my mother is near Seoul, where we all used to live together, and my father passed away in 2009. So, she, but she doesn't want to go to Busan, neither does she want to come to, you know, North Carolina. She just wants to be in in near Seoul where all of her friends and, you know. But she's aging, so it's my, our biggest concern as we, you know. But she used to prepare food. Because she was not a typical housewife. Traditionally, you know, Korean housewife. Because she herself, you know, went to school. And in fact, when she, they were, my parents were in graduate school. Their professor would tell my dad, well, you're alright, but your wife, she should really go a long way. She would, she would be, she would make a lot of money. Yeah, remarkable advances in our field, but she never got to finish her degree. But when she was growing up, she was one of these prodigy kids, you know, uh, that were good at both math and linguistics, you know. It's not, it's not common to find those people. So, her cooking was kind of adventurous. Yeah, it's not like the traditional dishes in, prepared in the conventional ways. It was very, you could say, creative, yeah. But one of the dishes that she would make is kind of spicy Korean barbecue with pork. But it was nothing like you would find anywhere else. Yeah. It's hard to describe, but it's a mix between the recipe for bulgogi, which is marinated beef, and then conventional, traditional pork barbecue, but it's also kind of, not, marinated. So, it's with, with rice and vegetables together. That's what I mean. I don't know what to call it. It's just pork dish.

Dae TerBush: Special spicy pork. Sweet spicy pork.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, exactly.

Dae TerBush: Okay, I know you talked a little bit about your family already. In your current family unit. So, you have a wife, you have two children, one of them is actually here, and you have a pet dog named Kobi.

Jungho Kim: Yes. Very cute.

Dae TerBush: What kind of dog is he?

Jungho Kim: He's a Cockapoo, so a Cocker Spaniel and a Poodle mix. He's seven years old. He's a boy. Cutest thing ever. Yeah, and the older one I used to teach at Kent State before I came here last summer. So this is actually just my second semester. And so he finished his first year of college at Kent State as a double major in computer science and music. But after the first year, he told me, “I'm completely overwhelmed, and I can't do both.” So now he's the only computer science major here in UNCG. And he's doing well, I think, I hope, yeah. And the younger, and so he played the bassoon. You know, that big wood trunk looking thing, you know. And the younger one plays the violin. He goes to Northwest Guilford High School. He's a junior there. And I think he's probably the only academically driven person in our household. Sometimes I will wake up at 3am and he's up studying math and, “What are you doing? Why are you doing this?” But he wants to do well in school and keeps up his grade and stuff.

Dae TerBush: Alright, and so, you said you had a brother.

Jungho Kim: Yes. And he lives in Busan. Yeah, yeah. Okay. Yeah. He so he's an English literature professor at Busan University. And has two daughters. I, which I only met them once when I went back, was able to go to Korea two years ago now. But I don't get to go back as much as I want, you know. As you get older, nothing is about you. When you are 20 years old, single, you can go where you want, eat what you want, do what you want. But it's all about you. But now nothing's about me. It's, you know, if I'm sick, I'm not sick, my wife's husband is sick, or my children's father is sick, you know, and it's Friday. “Hey, what are what I want to eat?” Is not even a question. “What do you want? What does mom want?” You know?

Dae TerBush: Yeah. What does your wife do?

Jungho Kim: She's a violinist. She teaches at Chapel Hill. UNC Chapel Hill. And she also plays in the Greensboro Symphony. She was a professor at University of South Dakota for five years? And this is during which I, I did my doctorate. I went to University of Rochester in upstate New York. This is after I did my master's in Cincinnati and then later. So that was probably the most difficult time in our family's history because, you know, I was upstate New York and my wife and kids, who were young at the time, were in Vermilion, South Dakota. And it got even worse because exactly 13 years ago, I had a massive stroke. I don't know if you could tell, but I have a lot, still have a lot of lingering problems from it. And so, I had to take two years off to go into rehab, which is when I went back to Korea to receive some, you know, traditional Chinese treatments. And so I had to put everything off for two years and went through, I couldn't walk for, I don't know, eight months. I was in a wheelchair. And my wife was, you know, I owe everything to my wife because, you know, she was working full time, teaching full time, and taking care of the kids, and taking care of me all at the same time. So like, you know, superwoman. Yeah. So I have a lot of gratitude and respect for that. I probably owe it for the rest of my life, you know. So that was the most difficult period, yeah, when I couldn't do anything and, you know, my wife was pretty much feeding everybody in the family and, yeah. But then, I did get over it. I mean, I get by. I can walk now, yeah. But, of course, still have a lot of lingering problems here and there. But it probably shaved a decade off of my life, but I'm going to do what I can while I can, yeah.

Dae TerBush: Yeah, life is hard.

Jungho Kim: Yes, life happens.

Dae TerBush: So difficult.

Jungho Kim: Mm hmm. I agree.

Dae TerBush: So, I wanted to talk a little bit about, you know, your high school education in South Korea. Did you enjoy high school at Seoul Arts?

Jungho Kim: The short answer is no. Yeah. Because of my childhood that I spent in Florida, the kind of educational norms didn't really fit me very well. I didn't know this at the time, but the, you could say it's very narrow. I mean, South Korea is a very small country. And everything, everything, meaning the colleges, the food, you know, the, the movies, whatever, they're strictly ranked. And according to, Where you want to go to school, of course, it's all dependent on your grades and how you do in school, and the kind, your ability to follow whatever path is given to you. It's hard to go outside of it. So, in short, it's six years of elementary school, and three years of middle school, three years of high school, and then four years of college, and then two years of graduate school. Boom, boom, boom, boom, one after another. It's difficult to get outside of that path. And when you do get outside of the path, outside of that path, it's easy for you to be seen as a failure. So, the social pressure that you get from that kind of narrow path that everybody is expected to follow is difficult. The good things of it is that it's very clearly laid out and it's the structure, it is built to help with your academic success in terms of, at least in terms of what you can see on paper. You know, you would have the highest grades or, you know, you could play the most difficult pieces, you know, you know. But it's not always what we want in education and not, of course, obviously not all we want in education. But so my high school years, you know, I would probably sleep four hours a day, or three hours a day. And because it was an arts high school, that was also excellent with academics. So, you have to be good at what the instrument you play, or whatever, you know, dance or art, whatever your major field is. But you also was expected to achieve the highest academic grades, marks. For you to do that, if you divide 24 hours of the day, and you sleep 4 hours, you have 20 hours to do everything else. So you could spend 8, 7 hours practicing. 7 hours practicing means, you just wake up in the morning, and you don't brush your teeth or put your socks on. You take your instrument out and start practicing. And then, you know, you could get three, five minutes to go run to the kitchen and grab something to eat, and all you're doing is practicing. And then after that, of course, you go to class. And the classes were probably from 8 a.m. to around 4 p.m. or 5 p.m. And then you don't go home. Well, some of them did, but you go to the practice rooms, you know, and practice until 11, 12, you know, at night, you know, and then you take the last bus home. Public transportation is quite good in Seoul, Korea. So you, you don't have to drive. In fact, you probably don't want to drive because the traffic jams is deadly. You know? So I have memories till today from, you know, taking the bus home in the middle of the night. And so it, I can't say it was. Fond memories? But there were, of course, you know, fond memories, yes. For example, in my year, there were 200 students in my year. And sorry, sorry yeah, 200 music majors. And of the 200 music majors, there were 9 boys. So 182 are all girls. So in my classroom, at the time the classrooms were big there were, the class population was big. We had maybe 50, 60 students in one class. But only 9 of them are boys, you know, and all girls. So I kind of missed out on, in my growth, the kind of feeling where you're all blushing in your face, Oh, I don't know how to talk to you.

Dae TerBush: Ah, 첫사랑? (Pronounced “Cheos-sarang”, means “First Love” in Korean)

Jungho Kim: I never had that, you know. They were all just, you know, friends, you know. So I never had that kind of, where my sons are now learning, you know. So, I feel like I missed out from that part. But, because of that kind of environment let's say it's my birthday, then, and I'm a senior in high school, then all of the freshmen and second years, and, and my, you know, senior peers would, give me flowers and presents and letters and because I'm only one of the nine boys. So, not because I'm good looking or popular, but because of the rarity, I guess. So, yeah, it was it was interesting that way.

Dae TerBush: I know high school and Korean, like, Media is very portrayed as like having, you know, high school bullies and it just being very competitive and how much it can wear down on people. I mean, as we, we have discussed, like, it can be really detrimental.

Jungho Kim: It can be, yes. Yeah.

Dae TerBush: Was it kind of a struggle to have to think about what it would have been like in high school in America if you had stayed there versus? Having to stay in high school until basically we're 20 compared to 18 here. Were you ever kind of like, man, I wish I was in American high school right now. I could be out faster.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, there are things like that. Especially because, you know, my children went to K-12 here in the U. S. And I, you know, for example I remember my younger son, he must have been like 4th grade or something. He comes back home from school one day and says, he stands in front of me and says, “Dad, why is my hair black?” Because this was in South Dakota, and in South Dakota 99. 9 percent of the population are beautiful, Scandinavian, tall, blonde people. And in his entire school he's the only Asian kid, and he's wondering, why all of my friends have blonde hair? “Why, why am I black?” So, what do I say to that, you know? Because my hair's black? Yeah, and that kind of part of an identity crisis, you know. Because he's not accepted as a Korean either, but not really entirely American either. And in the eyes of his friends, you know, he's this kid with black hair and black eyes, you know. And my older one was graduating from high school. He comes back home and says, “Oh, dad, I have to go to prom.” “What is prom?” I mean, I kind of heard of it, but I didn't know what he had to wear, what he had to do, or where you had to go, or, you know. So, I would just tell him, “you know, I don't know, go ask your friends.” you know. I don't know. So, but I do remember thinking, “oh, that sounds like fun, though.” you know. I never had any. We never had anything like that growing up in Korea. They had other things, yeah, but nothing like the kind of, like, you wouldn't be driving in high school in Korea. But, in, in our country here, in America, if you don't drive, that's a problem. But when you can drive, you have, you're given such freedom that you could, I don't know, go to K-Pot in town with a bunch of your friends, or, you know. So, I do wonder, it could have been There are pros and cons, of course. And it's, again, the kind of balance that I wish for my own children, for my own children, the kind of discipline it takes. And then, because there's really no there's no app that you can download to, to do, be able to do certain things. You actually have to sit down at a desk, in front of a desk, and spend hours doing something, or practicing something. And then, of course, Not lose heart while doing that and really not forget take your eyes off of the real reason that you're at it for This leads me to a thought that I've been having recently Is I think it's really unfortunate when I hear some, some younger generation talk about, for example, “Why do I have to spend hours learning calculus? I'm never going to use calculus in my life, no. Like, trigonometry, what am I going to do with that? My answer to that is, “no, you probably won't use trigonometry.” And in fact, it is not trigonometry that you're really learning. You're learning how to live. It's the attitude towards life that you're really learning. But, it might be trigonometry or whatever it is, the subject itself is not what is really important. It's the attitude or the understanding of hard work. It might be physical work, yes, but it's not only physical work that we as humans need to develop and, and study. It's the intellectual achievement as well. The idea that you work hard at something and then you are able to understand or create something is just as important, if not more. And, you know, so when I hear “Why, why go to college? You know, just go to a, you know, what is it? Like a trade school.” Yeah, maybe. But, We are all different and we come from different places. We look different, eat different things and have. Pray to different gods, but we all just want to be happy. I can't imagine a life where you wake up at 7am and, “Ah, I have to go to work.” How? I can't do that. I will be happy even if I make less money, but do what I really love to do. I think that is the biggest success in life to me. And to be able to get there, it's not trigonometry that will get you there. It's the attitude towards life, towards hard work, towards, towards the process that you have to go to gain achievement and to be able to do what you really love to do and make money at the same time. Money is going to happen if you are with your relationship with whatever it is that you love to do. To me, music is like that. It's like starting a family. Nobody starts a family to make a buck. If you would, that would be wrong. So, the, I do make money by being a musician or, or teaching music, but it's a byproduct of the relationship that I have with, with what I love. So, there are things in life that we do out of love, and I think that is what we should never really forget, and that hopefully is what educational institutions would also exist for that biggest reason, to exist. It's not to teach, you know, calculus or, or trade or, you know, yeah.

Dae TerBush: We did talk about how high school was difficult, you know, just studies wise. When you didn't have to study, what was your favorite pastime?

Jungho Kim: Video games.

Dae TerBush: Definitely, still in high school?

Jungho Kim: Yeah, in high school, yes. Well, in high school, I guess, no, in high school, actually, in high school, we didn't have what we have now. So in high school, my biggest pastime was probably baseball. I'm a big baseball fan, and my younger brother, he He's a baseball maniac. So his actually his career dream was actually before he he studied linguistics. But before he did that, he wanted to become I don't know what it's called in English, but the baseball data Researcher, or you know how, you know, the batting average and you know, on base percentage or whatever before like the cyber metrics or whatever they call now before that was developed into all computerized and digitized now, but before that you have. Those years, you had to sit down with a pencil and a paper and write down everything, you know. And that's what he wanted to do.

Dae TerBush: Like data entry, basically?

Jungho Kim: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dae TerBush: Gotcha. Yeah. Do you have a favorite baseball team? Is it in Korea or is it American? Well, in or maybe both, which one?

Jungho Kim: In Korea, not really. I used to when I was really young simply because they were the best, you know. There was a professional team in Gwangju, Korea. But in after I moved to the U. S., my favorite teams were really because of a few Korean players that played in the major leagues, like Hyun-jin Ryu. He pitched for the Dodgers, and he pitched for the Blue Jays in Toronto. And this year, we don't know where he's going to go. He had some major injuries, and I don't know, we don't know if he's going to play. And now, we have Ha-Seong Kim. He plays for the Padres, the way he did. I think he's going to play for the Padres again. So, there were a few, like Shin-Soo Choo, who played for the Indians, now Guardians, in Cleveland. And in Texas after that. So there were a few outstanding I think that's an interesting fact about South Korea. It's such a small, tiny country, and the basis of it is very weak. It's, you know, very, But once in a while, you get these superstars out of nowhere that are, the levels are just so Like, Yuna Kim, the figure skater. Figure skating is not a thing in Korea. There's nothing. There's no ice rinks, there's no coaches, there's nothing. But this person just came out and, out of the blue, and dominated the world. It's an interesting place these kind of things happen. The overall like baseball, the number of teams or the players are far less than, say, Japan or U.S., absolutely. But you get these, once in a while, these players that just I don't know how that happened, you know. Yeah, yeah, so it's interesting that way. So, my favorite teams kind of shifted around depending on where they're playing.

Dae TerBush: Yeah, I guess you could say that the Korean I guess work habits really lead over to sports also.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, yeah, I think so. And some people, you know, criticize it for being too competition based, you know, narrow minded, and only strives for excellence, you know. But I think like Kpop, you know, like a lot of the Kpop groups are also criticized for, “ah, you don't even let them date anyone or eat or”, you know. Actually I just remembered a few, I think it must have been a few years ago already, a member of BTS, they gave an interview somewhere, and one of the reporters asked him, “you are criticized for, why do you guys work so hard, you know, like, hours of practice and, can you take it easy and enjoy a little bit?” Or something along those lines. And then, this guy, I don't remember his name who was one of the members of, He said, “I don't think you would understand, but South Korea has nothing, had nothing. After the Second World War, it was literally ashes, you know, and then this country was built to what it is now in the last seven, eight decades because people worked hard.” All they had were people. They didn't have, they don't have any natural resources. Not a drop of gas comes out of that country. They don't have. And even the land, it's all mountains. The only thing they had were people, and because of that, it's education. That, to train and educate these people were the only hope that they had. And it's the work ethic based on that kind of, you know, um, uh, drive that, Our only chance to, to be happy and to, to prosperity is education. So now we're seeing the downside of that as well. But he was saying, you know, as opposed to, let's say, some, some, you know, European countries who would invade another country and colonize them. You're not really creating anything out of nothing. You're taking what has been created by somebody else, you know. But Korea never was able to do that. And in fact, when you look at, you know, the geography, it's clear why.

Jungho Kim: You know, it's this tiny country surrounded by huge, like, Soviet Union that, you know, decades ago. And then China and Japan as one of the world powers. So how did this happen is, only one reason is education.

Dae TerBush: So you'd say South Korea worked really hard considering that it is a tiny island stuck between such imperial powers.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, when, when he was saying that, you know, Can we take it easy and relax a little bit? Yeah, we could, but my generation or my parents generation, no. It was literally survival. Their only chance to put food in their mouth is education. And to be good at calculus. Not because that's what they're going to do with their career. No, because it's the attitude towards life. You set a goal and work your tails off to reach there, to get there. And that kind of mindset can be seen as, Oh, they're “try hards”, or whatever they call it now.

Dae TerBush: You don't have to answer this one if you don't want to. It's just one I was thinking about is did you have any interesting, like, family history when it came to the Korean War and, you know, the separation between the peninsula?

Jungho Kim: Yeah, yeah. My father's side come from North Korea, actually. So, my grandfather, well, actually, my grandfather taught English and French in a high school in North Korea. And when the Korean War broke out, he fled to Daegu in South Korea. And that's where my father also grew up. And that happens to be where my mother is from, actually. My grandfather was a pure Marxist. So, you could say Communist, yes, absolutely. But in a scholarly sense, academic sense. So, he was surely interested in, you know, the idea of communism. What it means to not a politically driven, you know, for political power or anything like that, but what it means, what communism really means at heart. As a scholarly subject. Is what he was most interested in. And as partly as an influence of that, you know, my fathers and all my uncles, you know, had deep respect for my grandfather. And my grandfather also is the one who started the teacher's union in South Korea after he fled North Korea. And because he started the teacher's union for the first time in Korea's history, he was also discriminated against and, and criminalized by the Park, President Park. Park Chung, Park Chung, Park Chung-Hee, Chung-Hee Park, was a Korean dictator for, I don't know, 20 years maybe? So, it was early 60s when my grandfather, father was sentenced to death. And then his students, you know, appealed appealed and his sentence was reduced to life imprisonment. And then he ended up serving 10 years in prison. So, which is when, you know, my father's side of the family really just collapsed. My, my grandmother, my, so my grandfather's wife came from a very wealthy family in North Korea. But then, while he was serving 10 years in prison, everybody was just, you know, yeah, all, everything was taken away. And at the time also, they had this um, uh, in English it would be guilty by association. So because of my, because my grandfather was sentenced in prison as a criminal, my father was prohibited to leave the country. So he couldn't have come to Tallahassee to, to, to go to grad school. It was only possible because one of his professors in his undergraduate at Seoul National University told the government, This student has to go study. It's a promising future for our own country. He's going to come back and do great things for our country. So he vowed for it, basically. So, my father was not allowed either to serve in the current military, which is required for all men, but he was not allowed to go. Which some people could say, well, good for him. Yeah. I, I hated military service. I couldn't stand it. But, I mean, shooting guns and throwing grenades, how do you enjoy that? I don't know. I guess some people do.

Dae TerBush: Yeah. Seems like a lot of Americans do, so. How long was your military service? I know the minimum right now is 18 months.

Jungho Kim: Right. At the time, it was 26 months, yeah. But now, but, but, because of my eyes, I was only going to go for 18 months, yeah. And it was not going to, I wasn't going to live in the, on the military base, but commute from home.

Jungho Kim: It's the, I don't know what it translates to in English, but it's not the regular army, but it's the, Not the reserve either, but you are a soldier, but you're commuting from home to the near military base. And because I was a violinist, they put me in the military band. But in a military band, you don't need a violinist. So the guy came over and said, What do you want to play? I said, Sir, I want to play the trumpet, sir! And he looked at my teeth and said, You can't play trumpet with your teeth. So they gave me a tenor saxophone instead. . So I played saxophone in the military band for 18 months. Yeah.

Dae TerBush: If you do want to say anything in Korean, you are more than welcome to. I will translate it for you.

Jungho Kim: Oh, great. Yeah. Yeah. 방위, 방위 (Pronounced “Bang-oui”, means “Defense”) is yeah. 방위is what, what it was called at the time, but that changed to something else later. Yeah. I don't know what it's called now.

Dae TerBush: Gotcha. Yeah, I'll figure it out for you. No worries. I think that's funny that that guy was like, your teeth, you can't play trumpet. Because I was, I wanted to play flute as a kid, but they were like, your lips aren't right, sorry. So, I understand the struggle.

Jungho Kim: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, trumpet, was, was my dream instrument, you know, I really wanted to play, but then, you know, saxophone is arguably much easier to produce sound on it as a beginner. And then, because I had, you know, musical training, it wasn't too hard too big of a leap to learn it, I guess, yeah. So, I played, in know military marching band for two, for 18 months.

Dae TerBush: Yeah. That probably felt a little bit better compared to actually having to shoot guns and throw grenades. Yeah. Play instruments after.

Jungho Kim: I mean, yeah. But also, you know, of course you have to do all of the basic training regularly, so Yeah. You know, you can't avoid still, you know, having to shoot guns and whatnot and Oh, I just, yeah, I, I could not stand it. I mean, you should have gone. And the ringing in your ear, it doesn't go away for like a week, you know. Yeah, of course, unless you have something, you know, some protective gear to, to And a grenade. No, it, it still gives me, yeah. But I think at the, at the core it's Shooting guns can be fun, you know. It can be fun too, yes. But for me I think it was Deep inside it hurt me because of the, I mean, it's the idea of violence, to destroy something. And the opposite, I want to create something, not destroy something. So that was difficult for me. But it's quite interesting when you think about it because this country, you know, probably 80 percent of all men know how to shoot a gun. They're not, you're not allowed to have one, yeah. Unless you're in law enforcement or something. There are no guns, yeah. But, you know, everybody knows how to deal with one, you know.

Dae TerBush: Was your military service before you got into the PC 방 or after?

Jungho Kim: Oh, it was oh. It was right after, I think, yeah.

Dae TerBush: Okay.

Jungho Kim: Did you Around the same time, yeah.

Dae TerBush: Kind of felt like, ah, I love my first-person shooter game. Oh, oh yeah. This will be fun.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, I mean, yeah. You know, in these first-person shooter games, especially the ones that have come out recently, they're very detailed in what gun works how, and the gunplay in the game is very accurate, really. You know, like the, what do you call it, when you shoot a gun, this, this, gosh, what is it in English? This If you point and aim and shoot something, it doesn't stay there.

Dae TerBush: Oh, it's a backlash?

Jungho Kim: Yeah, yeah. And depending on what kind of gun it is, it's drastically different. And video games these days, they very accurately, oftentimes, make these games. But at the time, you know I think I liked it because it's team play. And it's not, I mean, Rainbow Six is the game, first person shooter that I played at the time. But it wasn't it was always versus another human being. Meaning, it's the mind game. If I pop out a grenade here, he can just run out and Get right, get me right away. So, I'm gonna pretend like I'm going to throw in a grenade and wait for him instead. You know, all kinds of, it's like playing chess, you know. And, when it's team based, it's more exciting and more, you know, complicated, yeah. Hmm, definitely.

Dae TerBush: Yeah. I wanted to move on to your work history. I know you said you worked at Kent State. But I was curious about, like, how did you hear about working at UNCG?

Jungho Kim: Yeah, yeah. Shame on me, but before I came to the interview, this is February of 2023, I knew little to nothing about UNCG. Even the School of Music, I didn't know much at all. I did know, oh, they have a pretty good program there. But I've never been, or I never really knew anybody who was directly associated with UNCG in any way. So, when I came to the interview in February, exactly a year ago, I was really impressed. I was really shocked. What I, everybody I met, all of the facilities and the students and the staff, it was eye opening. And, in fact, in 2017, when I first started teaching at Kent State, I told my wife, I'm going to retire from Kent State, and I'm not applying for any more jobs, so please don't ask. But then That started changing shortly after the pandemic for various reasons, but then after when I came to the interview, I knew I, I want to come here. I want to be here, you know, and, you know. I see myself here 15 years from now, if I can make it 15 years. Yeah. So I feel like I found home. Yeah.

Dae TerBush: So you would say that basically the campus, you know, it being a rather pretty campus was something that also compelled you?

Jungho Kim: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, there it's, it's a combination of so many different things like the climate or most importantly, the people, you know, and I think more and more When I was younger, it was the work itself that I, you know, valued the most, and I thought it's the priority, but it's really the people, you know. Who do I get to work with, you know, the students and the fellow, my colleagues, and, you know, I think that's the most important thing. And, you know, I'm, of course I'm new, so everybody's still nice to me, but you can still see, you know, people are genuinely happy, you know, working here, and, and. And I, I'm glad to be one of them, you know, yeah.

Dae TerBush: What responsibilities do you have here as the Associate Professor of Conducting and Director of Orchestras?

Jungho Kim: Sure, so, I teach conducting At School of Music at UNCG there are two orchestras. One is University Symphony Orchestra USO for short. So I conduct all rehearsals and all performances of that orchestra. It's a full symphony orchestra. And then Sinfonia is the other orchestra. It's a little smaller and most of the time with string instruments only. And Dr. MacLeod, she's one of the music education professors. She's been directing that group for a long time. And she's also the president of American String Teachers Association, which is remarkable, we're so lucky to have her and she works with that group and a lot of music education major students and non-majors as well, yeah. And a big part of my responsibilities is I teach the conducting classes including all of the undergraduate conducting. So instrumental conducting 1 and 2 and then also graduate conducting students masters and doctorate students. Yeah. So, no, that's the most important, I mean, biggest part of my teaching. And then this semester also I'm teaching opera. Hmm. So every spring semester, the opera department and the orchestra, USO collaborates together and we produce a fully staged opera for this semester for performances. Opera is one of, probably the most I mean the biggest area in where it can really show the depth and strength of a school of music. Because opera requires pretty much everything. The German composer named Wagner from 19th century, he used to call he was very egocentric and so he didn't want to, call his operas, operas. So, he called his operas music dramas. Okay, whatever, dude. But then he also called his music dramas in German, Gesamtkunstwerk. Gesamt is together, and Kunst is the arts, and Werk is work, yeah. It's everything coming together, from the poetry, from the acting, from the singing, from the orchestra, from the staging and lighting and costumes, and everything coming together to put together this show. So it's a genre that requires, you know, depth and expertise in so many different areas of this to put together a production like this. So, this semester we're doing two rather short operas. One, one is called Suor Angelica by an Italian composer named Puccini. It's nuns in a nunnery. It's about an hour long, maybe. And then the other one is a German opera with spoken dialogue. We're doing it in English, it's maybe on half an hour long. It's a very, it's a comedy about two divas, you know, Sopranos debating. “Oh, I'm Best, I'm”, “no, I'm better than you.” “No, I'm better than you.” I get to do the most important role. No. So, and the guy in Presario is the name of the opera Impresario is the guy, the producer, basically, you know, trying to navigate between these two big characters. Yeah. Yeah.

Dae TerBush: Do you have a favorite opera that you've seen?

Jungho Kim: Yeah, yeah. My favorite is probably Puccini, actually. La Boheme is an opera like Puccini wrote. The only part of Italy I've ever been to, well, I guess I've been to, but I was in Lucca, Italy, as an assistant conductor for an opera festival there in the summer, and Lucca, Italy is where actually Puccini was born. This town is not that big, but it is surrounded by walls, and inside the wall is all, you know, Like, touristy shops, and, and people of Lucca live outside the wall, and, but at the center within the in the, of the walls, there's this little piazza like a courtyard, you know, and it's surrounded by cafe, cafeterias, and then in the center of that courtyard, there's a statue of Puccini with his legs crossed like this with a pipe, and, and you get a little espresso and you sit. In front of that statue, and it feels like you're talking to the guy, you know, “Hey, why did you do this?” It's the atmosphere in the air is very impressive. It feels like you're connected to this music, Excuse me, somehow. My favorite scene, actually, of, of that, that opera is probably the end, where Mimi is the female main character, and Rodolfo is the guy. They fall in love, and Mimi dies at the end. In opera, somebody dies. But Mimi is, I think from tuberculosis? Is that, how do you say it? Tuberculosis. Tuberculosis. He's lying down on the other end, this end of the room, and on the other end of the room, he's surrounded with his friends. And then he realizes that she just died. And then his friend, you know, says, Courage, my friend! And he realizes, and he starts crying out about, you know, and the opera ends right after it. And that moment, you know, the music and the acting and the, and the drama is so overwhelmingly powerful. It's a gut-wrenching scene. So, like, it's like spicy food, really. It really takes you, yeah. So, the first time I saw that opera, it's probably, you know, so powerful that I would probably never forget. You know, and When you start to study something, the more you realize how much there is that you didn't know that you didn't know, you know, and, you know, whenever I look at that score or, or that opera, there's always something that I learn, you know, I discover. These notes did not change, you know, when he put it down a hundred whatever years ago, you know, it's, we change, you know, and our perspectives change. So, when we try to recreate this, it's always a new path that was never taken before. So, it excites me in that way, but my favorite opera by far, Bohème, La Bohème.

Dae TerBush: I think that's a good choice considering it was that scene's specifically so popular that it's in Rent the Musical.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, that's true, that's true.

Dae TerBush: Right at the mid to end they do a, a recreation with the characters that is similar to Puccini's La Bohème.

Jungho Kim: I see, yeah, yeah.

Dae TerBush: So I know you've been working here since this beginning of fall semester. I saw you were accepted, I think in about March 2023? Based off of the website they had the little thing, announcing your position. Are there any highlights of your time here so far?

Jungho Kim: Yeah, I think from last semester, every once a year the School of Music does this concert called Collage. It's where A lot of different students and faculty and a lot of different small and big ensembles, they do their own thing and it happens at the auditorium and, you know, somebody might perform over here next to your seat and something goes on the stage, in this corner of the stage. And that was probably an opportunity for me to, you know, because I'm new, I'm still learning who's who and what's what and what's where and, and it gave me an overview of, oh, wow, we have, we do that, we have that too at the school. Oh, he does that and she does that. And that was a exciting experience for me, not to mention the level of the performances were astoundingly high. Great to be a part of it and to see what everybody does and everybody does so well. The School of Music in our days is not necessarily the Western European canon, you know, based up around an orchestra. It's not just that anymore. It's very diverse, you know. So a performance that is, for me, is really an eye opening learning experience. Yeah, so I think I enjoyed that the most, yeah.

Dae TerBush: If you're comfortable I did want to talk about the recently proposed program cuts, you know, they got announced yesterday. How did you feel about the program cuts and the program review process even as a new instructor?

Jungho Kim: Yeah I think it's, you know, Similar to orchestras, you know, in Europe, orchestras are government funded, state funded. So if you play in an orchestra or you are a conductor of an orchestra, you work for the government. And after you retire, you receive pension money and it's all public money. In Korea, in Asia, I think it's an interesting mix where there are private orchestras, private and then public orchestras, state funded, government funded orchestras. In America, it's pretty much all private money. So, some of the orchestras that are well endowed and with long histories, they can be incredible. Like the Cleveland Orchestra from where I was just coming from. However, it can also be so struggling because there's lack of support. There's no money, then we can't do anything. So it's very different in that sense. And when, when we think about music or any education in a university, when it's based upon the one idea, what we do is we do this because we want to make money. Then it becomes education becomes a means to something else. I remember having this discussion with one of my colleagues, you know, I was saying basically, arts or music, it's not really people who are after money that are doing this, you know, and we should. Not forget, you know, what the real reason we, basically the love of it, the love for it is, is the biggest driving force or the biggest motivation for me to keep doing this. And then my colleague asked me, well, how is it different from anything else? You know, if you want, if you have, if you want to make a living and make money, basically you have to have the skills and the experience for it. And isn't. That's what a higher education institution should offer. And I didn't know what to say at the time, but I think one of the answers is, because it's the arts. How are we different? Yeah, we're the arts. Or, when we say liberal arts, it's not necessarily like, back to our conversation from before, like calculus or trigonometry or whatever. It's, our efforts to, to teach a perspective in life, an attitude in life, is I think more and most important, rather than that little subject at the moment, which can be anything. You know, my students in my classroom may walk out of this classroom and forget instantaneously what we just talked about, but they were there at 8am. to come to this class. What they learned in that process is, I think, probably the most important thing. They had to set the alarm at, I don't know, 6. or whatever, and they snooze it and then wake up like 15 minutes before 8 a.m. and then rush, you know, show up even without having time to put their socks on, and all of that experience adds up to the learning of Our attitude towards life, our, our biggest motivation and inspiration to keep on living, you know, is is what is important. So, sorry, I, I talk about a lot of ideas, but when these program cuts are solely based on the one thing, money, I think there is something to be talked about, you know. Is money important? Oh yeah, absolutely. Everybody needs money, you know. But when that is the only priority that determines the fate of people or programs, I think there is a issue, that is an issue to be discussed and talked about. And it has to do with the fact that, you know, education in America is not free. Unlike some of the other countries. And it is not considered a basic human right. Or the accessibility is not the same. Where I come from, education is, I mean, in South Korea, education is something that is required. Like K-12 here, even the higher education is almost by, the negative side of it is the social pressure. You didn't go to college; you're looked down upon. But to that degree, going to college or keep on scholarly research is expected of any person. And the kind of the area that you find a job in is almost, you know, always associated with what you, what you studied or what your past experience was. But it also, more importantly, enables you to go on a job hunt and find what you truly want to do with your life. I studied math in, in college, but does not mean you have to teach math or go teach, you know. You can write a book about math, or sell it, and sell it, but most importantly, it's the experience of studying something to a degree where you, where you learn the value of hard work towards something and then achieving it. And the subject itself may vary. So, when, when the university or, you know, The people who have to make these kind of decisions do not easily make these decisions. I think it's important to raise the question, What, what is the, the driving force of having to make this final decision? Is there a reason we should keep, I don't know, the Korean language course or, you know. I mean, I'm not going to go to Korea, I'm not going to live in Korea, I don't have any Korean friends to have to, I don't know, I'm not going to write a book in Korean, so why should I learn Korean? I don't think it's that. It happens to be Korean or whatever, the other programs that were subject to being diminished. So, there is a conversation definitely to be had. But it's not an easy one, it's a very complex one. I don't, you know, I'm no expert in any of the other fields, so it's a, it's a conversation that collectively we as have to come together beyond just money.

Dae TerBush: So you'd say it's very much like, this isn't something like money should not be the focus. It should be what these programs provide emotionally for students and you know even emotionally for professors because they're teaching what they love.

Jungho Kim: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think you know because yeah, I Think teaching and learning is an act of love. Yeah, and it doesn't necessarily originates from the idea of I am here to acquire the necessary skills to make a buck. That's, that may be a part of it, but it's not, it shouldn't be all. And it shouldn't be the basis of our, of our decision to cut or, or to cut something, yeah.

Dae TerBush: Right. I was going to move on to just being an Asian in America. How is your identity important to you? And does it impact or contribute to the work that you do?

Jungho Kim: Yeah. So this is what I think about when I look at my own children. We lived in Sioux City, Iowa at some point years ago. And I remember we were driving in our car on the highway and downtown Sioux City was over here. And downtown Sioux City is not big at all. The tallest building is probably four or five stories tall. And my older one, who was maybe six or seven at the time, he is looking out the window and says, “Skyscrapers!” And I looked at my wife and said, “We have an issue here.” We want the, our children to see the world. Have you been to Dubai? Have you been to, I don't know, Chicago? It's, the world is so big and so diverse where we, we have to, you know, broaden our views. And. It is often times what I realize from a lot of my American friends. Because often times their view of the world is very lateral. Justifiably so, because unlike a country like South Korea where they were required to have interactions with other countries. They had to learn foreign languages. But if you are born in a farm somewhere in Iowa. My, my father is a farmer, and my father is a, I don't know, a shoemaker. I'm going to learn that, and I'm going, that's what I'm going to do. I don't have to go to college. College? Well, I guess they do great things, but I'm happy doing what, you know, my family has been doing for generations, and they had little to no need to interact with You know, people from other states or not to mention other countries, you know. So, the necessity kind was the driving force for smaller, like South Korea, to have to learn about other cultures and have to learn other languages and be a, you know, be an important factor in relationships with, with other countries. But in America, not so much, you know, in, in, in the U.S. So it is, some, oftentimes I find when I, when I look at my own children, I think it's important for them to go see the world. And I know you're happy with your, with your friends and doing, doing what you do, but knowing where you're from and how those peoples Korea is 5,000 years old. I was, just last December, I was in Dublin, Ireland. And during the Second World War, Dublin as a city was never really heavily bombed. So a lot of the buildings that you see in Dublin are 1,000 years old. It's remarkable when you stand in front of a building that you know is 800 years old. And, and, I guess, Western Europe altogether, you could say. It's not that big of a region. Especially nowadays, you drive one hour from somewhere in Hungary and it's Austria. And it's, it's a very it's not that big. America is a huge country. It is big. So, it is easy. To not have to think about or worry about or you know, other cultures or other countries or my relationship and where do I, where do we stand as a country in the relationships, in, in the geopolitical, you know, it doesn't really matter as much, you know. So, it is easy to not think about it. But I think Knowing where my, me and my wife are from, and the kind of difficulties that my parents’ generation had when they were growing up, I do want to remind my own children about where they come from, and why I do these things this way, and why I yell at them sometimes for whatever reason that they don't understand, you know. So, and that is probably the same for everyone, you know, no matter where you're from. And a lot of my American friends who came from Europe initially, when they're in their, you know, their grandfather's grandfather or, you know. Because it's been longer, it is probably easier for them to have forgotten where they come from. You know, and these things are I think they matter, and to understand each other better, you know.

Dae TerBush: How has your experience been at UNCG as an Asian faculty member?

Jungho Kim: Mm, nothing negative, really. That's good. Yeah, yeah, nothing, I don't think I ever experienced any kind of discrimination or, I don't think so. There is one, interesting thing that I'm realizing more and more, in fact, is my own ignorance towards diversity. Particularly racial diversity. Because Korea is, how do you say it, homogenous? Homogenous? When I was growing up, you get on the subway train and there's a Caucasian white person gets on the train. Everybody's going to be looking at you. Look at her eyes, it's blue! Like, huh? Her hair is blonde! So my own ignorant er, my own ignorance, struggling with the, the differences, you know, was the first thing that I, well, one of the first things I realized and then drove me to, to actively try and educate myself, you know? Like, I took classes in, you know, microaggression or, you know, so. Those things, when I was growing up in Korea, were not a thing, you know. And I also remember, you know, this is when I used to teach at Kent State. My office was on the second floor, and then I was talking to a student, and then she was going downstairs, so I, “Oh, you're going downstairs, can you give this book to, you know, so and so is waiting downstairs on your way.” And she didn't know this student. So I just, “oh, she's a black girl with a violin on her shoulder.” And then she left. “Oh, okay.” And she left. And then a graduate student who was standing in my office, she said, “You're going to get fired.” Well, she's not only a student, but she's an old friend as well. And I said, “What”? What did I do wrong? You can't say black girl. And she's from Ireland, actually. And, huh? Why not? You should, you should have said African American or, or, you know, Like, I know a lot of my particularly white American friends who are sometimes overly sensitive about anything when it comes to racial difference. My family and I used to live in South Dakota. And there was a little public swimming pool in front of our house. And I would take my boys to the swimming pool every summer. And because I had a stroke, I couldn't swim anymore. So, my biggest, best exercise was to walk in the water, like this deep, and just walk. And I was walking in the pool, and there was this ten year old, maybe, Boy, blonde boy, who was playing with his buddies and accidentally splashed water on my face. So he quickly turned around and apologized, and he said, “Oh, I'm so sorry.” I said, “Don't worry about it, it's okay.” He looks at me and goes, “Are you Jackie Chan?” You know, I thought it was so adorable. You know, I thought it was so cute. And I should have said yes, you know. But then his mother, probably his mother, heard him say that, and then she turned to him and said, “How could you say that? That is so racist, you can't say that.” And I was standing there thinking, I don't think he's racist. So, this kind of, sometimes a bit overly sensitive about anything racial is also an issue. But obviously, you know, we can't be racist. I guess my biggest gauge when it comes to racism is, are we discriminating against somebody because of their race? And in that sense, no, I've never been discriminated. Maybe I was described because the mere difference, the mere description or acknowledgement of difference should not be justified as racism, you know. I do look like Jackie Chan. Not because there is any ill intent, you know. But of course, to a and it's also important to be aware of the kind of microaggression that could be delivered to the other side, no matter what your intention was, you know. So, it's a, it's a it's a complex matter. And we all have to be, you know, willing to educate ourselves in that department.

Dae TerBush: I agree. Very important. And intent really does matter. So, what do you think UNCG as a campus or community could do or does currently to make the Asian community feel more welcomed?

Jungho Kim: You know, I saw that question and I was thinking, and I couldn't really, I can't say that I have an answer. Yeah. But UNCG excels, I think, in the general culture overall culture of inclusivity in, in, how do you say it? Inclus? You said it right. Inclusivity. Inclusivity, yeah. I don't think I ever felt like an outsider or, or foreign or and of course, I always You know, conscious about doing the same, and to a point where I would go home and I'm talking to my wife about this student and I can't remember what this student looks like, you know, because the only thing that really mattered was what we were talking about and the subject and the ideas that we were exchanging, not, you know, what they were wearing or what they looked like or, you know, so, I think UNCG is a place where we can all be ourselves, you know, and, and be comfortable because I feel like I am comfortable being Asian, you know. There were moments before I came to UNCG, you know, especially when the COVID 19 happened, you know, there were discriminations against Asian people and, you know, gross generalizations of, of, you know, Chinese or, particularly because of our former president. And there were moments that angered me and, you know. And some of my Asian colleagues at the time, we used to do our, do a small silent rally, you know, with pickets, you know. It's important to have, and especially as faculty member, to, to show that that kind of support where we can empower and enable the voices of our students. Minority student. Not particular, only Asian, but, you know, any minority. You know, interestingly, I remember one of my good friends he's a tall, white dude that is a conductor, excellent conductor. He teaches at University of Hawaii, Manoa. And I was on the phone with him, and I saw how you're doing, and he's, “Oh, it's 80 degrees and sunny and I'm lying on the beach”, and, well, good for you. And then he was saying, “You know? I'm the minority here.” So, you know, majority of the people are not white. So he was telling me about, you know, I think I kind of understand, you know, how you could feel as a minority in any community. I guess I'm telling you this because regardless of, of who the majority is or who what kind of minority you are, I think I personally feel very much at home, at, at you know, comfortable, and I can be myself, and I can see that my colleagues and students are all accepting of who I am. I think when I see somebody who is, who does something that is, oh, that is weird. I don't think I dislike it, because it's probably because of my lack of understanding of their culture. Like, let's say a Jewish friend has a holiday that they stay, and I don't know what that holiday is. I just ask, “Oh, what is that?” And I think I feel comfortable enough to ask, and then they are also understanding. Of course, you don't know, you're from South Korea, how would you know? But I'm glad you asked, you know. I think that's the important culture, where we accept each other as who we are, you know. And even when we meet somebody who does not understand you, they could ask, you know. And I don't understand something that I could ask, you know. I think the problems occur when we stop talking.

Dae TerBush: We are running a little bit low on time, but I do have a few questions here and there. We've already talked about a bit about COVID-19 and you know, your memories about hearing about it and knowing how, you know, Korean community works and how you're just willing to accept the inconvenience of a mask in order to better help the community, which is very important. Do you remember how the university first responded?

Jungho Kim: Yeah. I, I was at Kent State at the time. In fact I was also orchestra director there and we were in the middle of a recording project and we had already done the first day of the three and it was the second day, I think it was March 14th or something and just everything just completely shut down. And it was traumatic and even months after that, I could not recover from that trauma, really. And, you know, especially with everything that happened, that year, like, with George Floyd and all of the It was a very difficult time, emotionally. And a time of reflection and frustration and But the response from the university I think we, when we look back now, was it overreaction or was it not enough? And I don't think we will know the answer to that until even much later from now, you know. But I do think what matters is the direction, general direction. When there is something unknown, wouldn't it be better to be on the safe side and to take the necessary measure you know, actions or measurements like wearing a mask. Is mask going to make everything right and perfect? We don't know. Probably not. But still means we're going to take whatever action is necessary and would be the, the safest choice from our current options. My mother, I remember once, you know, she was talking about Korean politics at the time, but There's a plant in a little vase, you know we know we have to water the plant, but oh, we don't have any water. So instead of water. I'm just gonna pour coca cola That's not how it works Even if it's dirty water, I'm still going to give it water Not, you know, as clean as we would like, or as perfect as we would like. And I think it's that idea of progress in the right direction. We should go to the mountains. But that mountain, if we're debating about this mountain or that mountain, that is a debate that we can have, a conversation we can have. But we can't just turn around and go to the sea. To the ocean instead. I think it's similar when it comes to issues of, you know, abortion or gun laws, or, you know. It's the general direction that really bothers me. How could we say more guns would be safer? I do not understand. At what point? So, are we gonna arm the teachers now? And then what after that? Are we gonna arm the seven-year-olds, you know? What after that? Yeah, I know it's a difficult and complex, you know, topic, but someone coming from a country where guns were never an issue, you know, it's shocking, you know.

Dae TerBush: I know we did talk about some anti-Asian sentiments that were circulating in the U.S. a lot. I know your general thoughts, but did you have anything to expand upon?

Jungho Kim: Sorry, could you repeat this question?

Dae TerBush: The anti-Asian sentiments during COVID-19, did you have any more you wanted to say on it?

Jungho Kim: I don't think anything in particular to add to that. But I think one of the first intuitive reactions to something that we as people are unfamiliar with or are ignorant about. One of the first reactions is fear. And then the other is discriminating against it. So, in, in that regard, it's not only anti-Asian or anti this and that, but UNCG has to be, we as people, we have to be a place for conversation, a place for communication, a place for open debate. I don't like that about you. Okay, then tell me so, rather than making up some rule or law against me or, you know. If I know what it is that you don't. Like about what I just did or said or who I am or then we can try to solve a problem it I think as orchestra director. It's one of the most obvious I think an orchestra, or any ensemble be it a choir or a band or is training ground for DEI really? Because we play instruments that are all they all look different and different sizes and different notes and different rhythms and different length But we all come together to create something together. When, when, in an orchestra for example, there's dozens of string instruments. And there's one flutist who is playing an important line. Then these dozens of players have to be aware, have to let this person speak. It's not just the flutist that has to play louder. Everybody in the room has to be aware, “Oh, that person has something important to say, so I'm going to shut up.” Or the big brass section has powerful sound that is going to overwhelm and dominate everybody else. Then they have to be aware. Am I? Important. Is it, is it my moment to do this? Or is there something more important going on? And collectively, and that is the idea of equity or diversity or inclusion. So I think an ensemble is a training ground for, for that. And it is always my goal to, you know, it's not as a conductor, follow me! And if you don't follow me, you're wrong. It's not that. It's you discover this person over here, you know. And it's, my job is to draw their attention to each other rather than one and one and one and one on one on one on one. You follow me, you follow me, you follow me. It doesn't work that way. We are collectively as an integrated organic being, we're trying to create something together. And in society I think that is exactly what needs to happen.

Dae TerBush: Gotcha. I have one last question, and that is, tell me in what ways UNCG has positively impacted your life, and what it means to you to be a faculty member at this institution.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, sure. I think the biggest part of it is, we are in a beautiful part of our country. You drive, I don't know, a few hours to the west, there's mountains. And then the other opposite, there's an ocean. And I think Greensboro is actually green. There's a lot of trees and a lot of green. And I also think, you know, because of my cultural ignorance, I didn't really know what southern charm meant. But I think it is actually a thing, you know. And anybody would talk to you, you know. Anybody would talk to you. You go to the I, just the other day, I went to get a new driver's license. Is it DMV?

Dae TerBush: Yeah.

Jungho Kim: And I'm waiting in line, or, you know. And the person next to me says, Hey, what, what, what shoe, where'd you get those shoes? Or, you know, they start talking to me about something random, in the most friendliest and the most comfortable way. It's not weird, right? If you're living in Seoul, Korea, and you have eye contact with somebody, you immediately look away. And if somebody looks you in the eye, the first reaction, what do you want? Somebody step on your toe. They don't say sorry. No? I guess it's similar in Paris, or any big city for that matter.

Dae TerBush: It's similar in Indiana.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, yeah.

Dae TerBush: I'm from there. Oh. Don't look at anyone else in the eye. Don't talk to anyone.

Jungho Kim: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, and, like in the busiest of rush hour in the, in the subway, you know, somebody steps on your toe. You don't expect that person to apologize. No. Oh, yeah, you step on people's toes too. I do too, you know. Yeah, so, but, but here in Greensboro, I think for me and my family, we all realize it's It's it's a lovely place. I don't know how, I mean, it's my limits of my language and my vocabulary is pretty limited in that sense, but we love it here. The people, the weather, you know, and, and the community as, as at UNCG. I'll Of course, because I've only been here for, you know, not even a year yet, I haven't been to many places. But at least when I come to UNCG and I always feel, you know, a 12-hour long day doesn't feel like a 12-hour long day. It just feels like I've been home all day. So, it's quite different from, you know, some of the other places that my family and I have been to. And I can see, you know, as a proof from I think I mentioned it before, but my colleagues and the students, they're generally happy to be here. And that has an effect on everybody around you.

Dae TerBush: Definitely. Those are all the questions I had for today. Is there anything else you would like to add?

Jungho Kim: I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot that I wanted to talk about, but I want to thank you for having me here today.

Dae TerBush: Yeah, thank you. I really appreciate you!

Jungho Kim: Yeah, I had a great time and important things that we all want to think about and keep talking about. Yeah.