Oral history interview with Terry Ward Cockerham, 2011

SM: Today is August 29, 2011. I am Sarah McNulty, oral history interviewer for [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro Institutional Memory Collection's] African American Institutional Memory Project. I'm at the home today of--

TC: Terry Cockerham

SM: --to talk about her experiences at UNC Greensboro. She was the class of 1969, correct?

TC: Yes.

SM: Okay. Well, could you just start with your birth date, where you were born and your family?

TC: Okay, I was born September 27--sorry, September 28, 1947 in Wilmington, North Carolina. My parents are Charles and Ella Ward of Lake Waccamaw, North Carolina. They're still living and I get to see them often now that I'm back here in Chapel Hill. I graduated from high school in 1965 and from UNCG in 1969 with a Bachelor's in Economics and Business Administration.

SM: And can you tell me about your home life, brothers and sisters or--kind of your life up until you went to college?

TC: Until I went to college, I lived with my parents. Until I was about fifth grade, though, I lived with my grandmother and my aunt because my parents were either in school or working away from home. But when I was I think in fifth grade my dad got a teaching job back in my home county and he did return there and we--they've been in the same house ever since.

SM: Wow! So no brothers and sisters?

TC: I do have brothers and sister--I've got one sister who was born the year I was a senior in high school.

SM: Oh, wow!

TC: She's like my little baby sister. She would come to UNCG and run up and down the halls. She just enjoyed--she'd get off the elevator or off the steps and yell "Terry, Terry." So all the students--my roommates really enjoyed her. I 00:02:00have three brothers between my sister and me and, unfortunately, all of my brothers are now deceased.

SM: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. You said your dad was a teacher.

TC: Yes.

SM: What is--did your mother work?

TC: No, my mom did not work most of the time. For part of the time, she was an insurance salesman for Winston Mutual, which was a black life insurance company that, I think, no longer exists. And my dad was a math teacher and my math teacher in high school as well, so--

SM: Wow! [laughs] That's interesting. And what--where was your high school?

TC: Artesia High School, which is now an elementary school.

SM: Can you spell Artesia for me?

SM: A-R-T-E-S-I-A. It's in Hallsboro, North Carolina.

SM: Okay. And is that--you said, "Wilmington." Is this Lake Waccamaw; is that how you pronounce it?

TC: Yes.

SM: Is that coastal, I guess, near Wilmington?

TC: Yes, it's about forty miles west of Wilmington--

SM: Okay.

TC: --Columbus County. Wilmington is in Hanover County.

SM: Okay. And you graduated from there in 1965?

TC: Yes.

SM: Okay, and what was your favorite subject? What did you like to study in high school?

TC: I liked math, I think, most. Not just because my dad was the math teacher but I was--I thought I could do it--until I got to UNCG. [laughs]

SM: Well, I was going to ask: why did you choose to attend UNC Greensboro?

TC: My dad had finished a program at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and he thought that would be a great school. However, my SATs [Scholastic Assessment Test] didn't get me into UNC Chapel Hill. I got into UNC Greensboro and, with the thought I might transfer later; however, that didn't happen. I liked UNCG and I liked the friends and people I had met there so I didn't even try to transfer.

SM: Did you apply to any other colleges besides UNC and UNCG?

TC: No, because I wanted to stay in North Carolina. I don't think I applied anywhere else.

SM: And can you tell me about your first day on campus?

TC: My first day on campus was spent with some friends. Because--because I applied late, I think, I didn't have a room on campus, so I stayed off-campus for the first, maybe, two or three months.

SM: Wow!

TC: So there were four--no, yeah--three other girls and me who were just starting at UNCG and so we just--it was like a group. It was real confusing because my hometown is very, very tiny and of course my high school is very, very little too. There were sixty-some people in the graduating class so, you know, you can tell by that that it was tiny. So the whole experience was 00:05:00different: big city, big school.

SM: Right. Where did you live off-campus?

TC Over on Warren Street, 616 Warren Street. The lady I stayed with--father had worked on the grounds of UNCG. Now this lady was a teacher, elementary teacher, and I think her husband was an insurance agent that my mom worked with and that's how she knew him.

SM: Okay. So you kind of had to find your own housing for this first year. It wasn't like UNCG put you off-campus in a house.

TC: Right. Right, I had to find my own.

SM: Okay. And then when did you eventually get on campus? Middle of the semester, I guess?

TC: Yes, probably about the middle of the semester.

SM: And where did you live at that point?

TC: Oh, gosh. You know, I have forgotten. I should have reviewed that, right?

SM: [laughs] I'm trying to think of dorms: Bailey, Coit, Gray--

TC: It was not a freshman dorm.

SM: It wasn't a freshman dorm. Oh, I went to Carolina [University of North] Carolina [at Chapel Hill] undergrad so I don't actually know.

TC: Oh, so you missed all that.

SM: Yes, I don't actually know many of the dorms at UNCG.

TC: Yes. The dorm I remember most was Mendenhall [Residence Hall] and while I was there they did build those co-ed dorms and I thought that would be great to 00:06:00live over there but I never moved. My roommate and I decided there would be less confusion just staying with the ladies. [laughs]

SM: So did you live in Mendenhall the last three years?

TC: I think so.

SM: Okay, and do you remember things about your roommate, moving in--since you kind of had a different experience coming in later?

TC: Well, my roommate was also off-campus with me.

SM: Okay. Staying with you?

TC: No. No, no, no. You know what, the first year it was not--what is that--It was a dorm--Gosh, I can't remember. Back in the olden days it was on the street that you just come in--small dorm and my roommate was actually a sophomore, I think. So after that, one of the ladies that I stayed with in my off-campus housing and I roomed together for those last three years.

SM: So you stayed with kind of a family friend off-campus but another student stayed with you?

TC: There were three of us.

SM: Oh, so--but you didn't know them prior to--

TC: No.

SM: Okay. How did they end up with your family friend? Did they just--

TC: I think they knew the person I stayed with. Now this couple had students, a couple of students from A&T [North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University] as well and I don't know--I think my connection was just because of my mother working with the gentleman. I don't know how they knew. I just don't know.

SM: [laughs] And what was your favorite subject once you got into college. Like, what did you like to study?

TC: Economics.

SM: Economics. And so you said you majored in econ or--economics and business administration?

TC: Right.

SM: And that was from the beginning that you--

TC: No, I think when I entered I had visions of going into medical school but 00:08:00the biology just kicked me all the way out of there.

SM: Really. I was going to ask what was college like for you academically.

TC: The first year I think I got Bs and Cs, maybe two of each because I dropped my biology and took that in the summer. It was--it was challenging because I did come from a small school. I remember the English teacher being--what can I say. I could write pretty well so she was--I think a little bit amazed at that. And the math teacher, my dad, had just taken the program at Chapel Hill so he knew all the binary-type math, which helped me with that as well as with some of the computer classes I had later.

SM: And, so you said you went to a small high school. Did you feel prepared? I mean was it hard for you adjusting study skills-wise or--

TC: It--before college I got As so I would have to say it was a little bit harder. The work was more--there was probably more of it and there was more competition. I guess so.

SM: Right, definitely. When you were at UNCG was the business program a separate kind of school you had to apply to or was it just like a major?

TC: It was just a major.

SM: Just a major, okay. What did you guys do for fun at UNCG in your spare time--that you, hopefully, had some, at least--besides studying.

TC: Coming from a small town, I wasn't used to much in terms of entertainment. The--my roommate for the last three years, we became friends pretty soon so I would go home with her because I soon started dating my current husband and she and he were from the same hometown so I would go home with her on the weekends. 00:10:00We'd do that and even though they talk about University of Virginia being a party school, I thought UNCG was pretty good at being a party school myself. I mean, there was always a party to go to. I didn't go to all of them of course, but there was always something to do. It's like if there was a party, you know, whoever was on the hall--there were some friend who would say, "Oh, yeah, let's go. Do you want to go?" Whatever, so it was pretty friendly in turn--most of the people. Some of the people, let's just say, were pretty friendly.

SM: And you said your roommate for the last three years was Martha Jo and was she Hightower or--

TC: Hightower.

SM: Martha Jo Hightower [Class of 1969] and was she someone you just met during freshman year and decided to live with sophomore year?

TC: Yes.

SM: Where did you guys meet?

TC: Well, she stayed in the off-campus housing.

SM: Oh, okay. And so they didn't put you guys together in a room. You had to go in to [inaudible]. And who was your first roommate freshman year?

TC: Brenda Gibbs.

SM: Brenda Gibbs, and you said she was a sophomore, right?

TC: I think she was a sophomore, yeah. She was definitely from Greensboro and knew her way around town.

SM: What was it like, living in the dorms for you?

TC: Martha Jo, she was only my roommate the last two years.

SM: Who was your roommate and who was in between?

TC: I don't know. [laughs] I wonder if it was Brenda. I can't remember.

SM: One of the kind of important parts of college life is adjusting to living in a dorm. So what was it like living in one of the residence halls--for you; being away from home and things like that?

TC: The bathroom was the hardest part to get used to, the bathroom-- [telephone rings] I'm sorry about that. [telephone conversation]

TC: Sorry about that. SM: That's okay. So you had a hard time--you guys, I 00:12:00guess, had a floor with one bathroom?

TC: Yes, yes. So I wasn't used to so little privacy and, being a black lady, I had never really done my hair all by myself so that was a whole new experience too. Being that self-sufficient--I was probably one of the few that hadn't done it. But that was different, just going down to the hall, taking all of my stuff, you know, to clean before and clean after and I don't know. That was probably the least fun part of college.

SM: Right. And what was it like having your roommate--since I guess you probably--you had brothers and a sister who was much younger. Had you ever had a roommate before?

TC: No. No.

SM: It was an okay adjustment for you though?

TC: It was okay.

SM: What about your experiences in the dining halls? Do you have any memories of, you know, socializing in the dining halls or--

TC: Back in the day I pretty much stuck with the people I knew, either from the dorm or mostly my black friends. So, that was it. The food was pretty good.

SM: It was? And at that point, were students--were students from A&T working in the dining halls?

TC: There were some students working there.

SM: Did you ever get to know any of them or--?

TC: No, I wasn't that friendly. I didn't have that much time.

SM: Really, yeah, double major. I can understand that. What was it, like, you said you left and went to Winston-Salem some with your roommate.

TC: On the weekends.

SM What about if you ever--did you ever go downtown or venture outside of campus to shop or movies, things like that?

TC: A little but I didn't have a lot of extra money so if there was--I think sophomore and junior year I probably went downtown more. I didn't really go 00:14:00downtown that much in Greensboro because during the week we were studying so I went with my roommate on the weekends and we might go to some places that she knew but--

SM: Did you ever have a car on campus? TC: I think senior year my dad bought his first new car and he let me take it to school. Can you believe that? So sometimes--because I could drive myself back and forth. It was a three-hour trip.

SM: Right.

TC: So if he didn't have anywhere to go that required a new car, you know, I would just take myself back and forth.

SM: I was going to say otherwise, before you had a car, would your parents have to come get you to go home?

TC: Yes. Yes. I mentioned my sister coming and running down the halls, so--yes, she did.

SM: Well, I have your copy of your yearbook from senior year and it says, of course, the kind of activities you were involved in, extracurricular. Can you tell me anything about those?

TC: Well, I don't think I was an officer in anything. I went to the meetings. I was really pretty shy back in the day. You know, I enjoyed, I guess, meeting people that I thought knew a whole lot more than I did since I was from a little tiny; really, really tiny town and I think we all looked pretty much the same back then. You see I wasn't very different in terms of my appearance. I just kind of tried to fit in. No, the Neo-Black Society was a group that was formed while I was there, of course and we--I went to the meetings but I didn't have--I wasn't politically outspoken or involved that much. My dad was really involved in politics but he--he kind of discouraged me from being active. I think he was 00:16:00afraid just because of all the things that could happen.

SM: Right.

TC: So I know that when we were at home--he was really upset the one time my mother took us and me to a political meeting down in Wilmington. It was okay for him to go but not--he didn't want us to go, or especially me because I was the oldest girl. I just didn't go. I was just a really sheltered person, what can I say?

SM: Yes. Well, did a bunch of--were your friends in the Neo-Black Society?

TC: Yes.

SM: And what kind of things would you guys do in meetings?

TC: Oh, they had speakers who'd come on campus and that sort of thing. So that was about it. That's the only part I did. SM: Was go to the speakers?

TC: Yes. SM: Did the organization do other things that you didn't--

TC: I have no idea.

SM: What about the--I think there's other--

TC: The Political Economic Club? No, I just went to meetings.

SM: And then does it say GUTS [Greensboro United Tutorial Service]?

TC: Yes.

SM: Can you tell me anything about that?

TC: I cannot. I can't, so it really made a big impression on me, right? [laughs]

SM: I guess, it says you would have done it your second year but I can't--a lot of people in it--it's been long or they were, like "I've never heard of that in my life." I don't know if that's right. I mean, who knows? The yearbook always could, you know--we had one lady whose picture was switched with the lady next to her and one was white and one was black so it made our tracking people down very interesting as we called the wrong person but--

TC: So how did you decide--how did you figure this out? Did we write on the application what we were?

SM: I don't know. That would be a good question to know, if you self-reported what you were involved with I--I don't know because eventually they stopped doing this. The next year, if you graduated, it's in the back of the book. You can look people up like in an index almost. And then eventually they just stopped doing the information altogether and then they stopped doing yearbooks altogether. So--in the '90s.

TC: Did they? So it's just on line?

SM: They don't even do that. '90s and even today it's just fizzled out so much that--

TC: Because of budgets?

SM: No one's interested. Yes, I guess. And now we have social media so people kind of have memories that way. Interestingly, I don't know if you've kept your yearbooks but the library has digitized them all so they're all online. You can go and look at a whole collection from--I think they start in probably the '20s maybe and go all the way to the '90s. We have all of them digitized. They're really interesting.

TC: I drove through campus with my daughter once but I've not really set foot on campus since I left. I haven't been back for anything. That's bad, isn't it? But 00:19:00you know we--I just graduated and got married the next week and moved to the Midwest--

SM: You got married the next week?

TC: I did.

SM: Wow.

TC: I went to the Midwest and I just, you know, have not been back.

SM: And where did your husband go to school?

TC: At A&T.

SM: He went to A&T. And he's the same age as you?

TC: Yes.

SM: And you knew him because they were high school friends?

TC: Right.

SM: Okay. What did he--What's his kind of path at A&T. Did he major in business?

TC: Economics.

SM: Economics?

TC: Yes, he did and then he got his MBA [Master of Business Administration] in Michigan while we were there so--

SM: Okay. Well, do any kind of, like, social or academic events stand out in your mind? Like UNCG would have concerts or like pageants--things like that you can remember?

TC: I just remember going to the Lou Rawls concert on campus.

SM: Okay.

TC: Let's see, and going to hear Stokely Carmichael speak. I don't whether it 00:20:00was my cash flow coupled with my--I just didn't do a whole lot.

SM: Were you there when Dionne Warwick came? I've heard people talk about that concert.

TC: I don't remember going to see Dionne. SM: Well, can you tell me, kind of, about your interaction with faculty, teachers? Do you remember any--talk about any teachers that you had.

TC: The only name I remember is Dr. [John] Formby, my econ professor. I really liked him. I liked his class and we talked about going to grad school; didn't do that. And I had a couple of English and math teachers that I liked but I didn't do a whole lot--you know, I didn't talk to teachers any more than I had to. That's not good, is it?

SM: [laughs] I mean, I think it's whatever, you know, people [inaudible] and I 00:21:00think it's a little different when you're--Business, I'm sure, was a bigger--starting to be--a bigger major and the bigger your classes are the harder it is to really interact with your professors.

TC: The class--because I came from such a small school, the classes there were definitely bigger and I don't know if you've been in situations where, as a lady you could say something and a guy next to you could say it and it's a good idea. Okay, it was kind of like that, you know, too. Being a black student, you could say something somebody else could say it and it was just really perceived as a great revelation. So I really didn't do--it wasn't encouraging, you know, to talk a whole lot in class, you know I just needed to pass the test and move on.

SM: Right. Can you tell me anymore about maybe people you remember? We've talked some about Martha Jo. Maybe other people who lived on your floor or you kind of hung out with; any other memories with students?

TC: Our friends were Cassandra Hodges, and of course she's deceased. One of Martha Jo's roommates was Alice, Alice Barnes [Class of 1968].

SM: Alice Barnes, we've interviewed her.

TC: You have? She was theatrical so I bet she gave you a really good interview. [laughs] and Martha Jo loves to talk; you should probably call her and get a phone interview.

SM: We've tried. [laughs]

TC: Have you? She's really busy. She does a lot, taking care of people in the community. Let's see--you know what, those--we had two guys on campus. I didn't date either one; one was a sophomore and one was in my class. I guess I remember going to the ball games, basketball because UNCG was just starting a basketball team.

SM: So did you know Charles Cole [Class of 1969]?

TC: Yes. I haven't talked to him since graduation so you see that we've not been close.

SM: Actually we haven't interviewed Alice Barnes. We tried. She was quasi-interviewed by a development person. I was thinking of another Alice that we interviewed. I think [she] is a couple of years older than you are. [inaudible--telephone rings] I have called her--that's how I remember her name. And so Charles Cole was one of the first black men on campus. So I mean, we wish we could have talked to him. He has not called us back but--is there anything--there weren't many men on campus in general so did the black and white men and women interact or was it mostly, you know, black women with the few 00:24:00black men and white women with the white men that were on campus.

TC: There were not enough black men so that's probably why I had to go over to A&T, right?

SM: Did you ever go to, like, dances or anything?

TC: I almost went to one but no, I didn't go to any.

SM: What kind of thing would you have done do for dates when you and your husband were courting? [laughs]

TC: Because we had limited funds, we would go to a movie every now and then; we would just sit around in the lobby.

SM: Would you go to a movie at Elliott Hall or would you go to, like, the Carolina Theater?

TC: We went to a theater but again, since Winston-Salem was his home and his brother was in school, they went home unless there was some big study thing. For a while I did have a Saturday class but unless there was some big study thing, there was more social activity in Winston-Salem. We didn't do a whole lot there.

SM: Did you ever hang out with anyone else at A&T or at Bennett [College]?

TC: I had a classmate at Bennett from high school but, no, I didn't do much over there.

SM: You never considered going to those two schools?

TC: No, my dad just thought that I should go to UNC. He really liked that school.

SM: What would you say was your favorite, you know, experience or aspect of college?

TC: Just being away from home is certainly--you do a lot of growing; you find a few friends that you hang on to. I don't think I had nearly as much fun as my son or daughter did, in college because it was--even though I was not a first-generation college person, I was really pretty quiet and shy so I didn't do a whole lot. But I liked the surroundings. UNCG was just really pretty; nice 00:26:00and peaceful and, for the most part, I did not experience--there were probably some students who were unsure of the integration process or if it should have even happened--and perhaps some teachers, too--but I wasn't that needy so I didn't really need to be loved by everybody.

SM: Had you gone to a segregated high school? TC: Yes, Artesia was segregated and but now it's an elementary school. That's the way they integrated in my county.

SM: So they would take the all-black high school and made it into another school and then--

TC: Yeah, because it was usually smaller.

SM: Smaller. And had you ever visited UNCG before you set foot on campus to go?

TC: You know, I don't think I had. Not like we do today. We did two college hunting trips and covered maybe six or seven schools for my son and daughter.

SM: Did you ever second-guess your decision or regret your decision?

TC: I didn't really second-guess it but I see--my friends who went to the all-black colleges have a lot more friends that they have held on to from--from those days. But I've got enough. I'm good. [laughing]

SM: Well, we always ask--a lot of people don't have a lot of memories of the administration because unless something went incredibly wrong in your college career, you didn't interact much with the chancellor or the deans. But do you have any memories about Dr. Otis Singletary or James S. Ferguson, who were the chancellors while you were there?

TC: No, their names are familiar but I had no interaction.

SM: Right. Most people don't have many memories associated with them. Or the Dean of College, Mereb Mossman?

TC: No.

SM: Katherine Taylor [Class of 1928] was the dean of students.

TC: No.

SM: And then the alumni secretary, Barbara Parrish [Class of 1948], but that's just mostly people later on in life interacted with her. And you said you didn't interact much with your professors but do you know if other people did? Or professors--or any other professors you can think of or have any memories of, besides the one you mentioned earlier?

TC: No, he was, like, the best. There was an English teacher that I liked but I don't remember her name. I remember just that I had to write a story in her class and she was just really supportive in terms of--she liked it. She made an effort to like what I did and to find some value and, you know, whatever in it.

SM: And you had said that some--you know, in many classes you felt like your 00:29:00opinion would have been discounted because of race. Did you think you were fairly graded and fairly assessed or do you think you--?

TC: As far as I can remember, I think so.

SM: Really, and did college become easier for you as you adjusted or was it something academically that--?

TC: I thought it was easier but because it was because of the major, you know. In the beginning there was the chemistry and biology that I would have needed for my pre-med major. Oh, boy, those really scared me to death.

SM: And did you stick with the class though or did you end up dropping?

TC: I dropped chemistry and I took biology. And I did the minimum there because coming from a small school--and maybe I wasn't that bright up here--I just didn't--I didn't have the background and I didn't have the tenacity to get it, there. It was just so overwhelming and I was a bit squeamish with the biology, the little animals and whatever but the chemistry, I knew I didn't want to go 00:30:00back to that.

SM: Right. Did your parents support your major? I mean did you have plans with business and economics, what you wanted to do job-wise or--

TC: No, my parents were fine.

SM: What did you--what were your kind of aspirations career-wise when you were in college?

TC: Most of my family were teachers and for a while I thought I would do that but after--I did not get a teacher's degree so after college on my husband's first job--I didn't get a job right away so I did some substitute teaching and I decided that was not for me. So, no, I just worked in, you know, just business positions.

SM: And did any of your siblings go to college?

TC: Yes, two of my brothers did.

SM: And where did they go to college?

TC: One went to college in Laurinburg and one went to A&T and the one that was at A&T had an accident and he didn't--he was killed. He didn't finish.

SM: Oh, I'm so sorry to hear that. Did your sister not go to college?

TC: She went to an associate's program. She works in healthcare.

SM: Oh, okay. What about your children, what did you tell them? I mean, you--were you still living, I guess, in Chicago when they went to college?

TC: No, actually we lived in--we've had seven or eight moves--

SM: Oh, goodness.

TC: --so our children were born in Anderson, Indiana but we spent most of their school years in Michigan; different suburbs around the Detroit area, a year or two in Pittsburgh [Pennsylvania] and a year or two in Columbia, South Carolina. So the kids had more broad experiences growing up and with them, when we were college-looking, we looked at minority schools as well as the big, the Duke, the UNC, and Virginia. My son ended up going to the University of Virginia and my daughter went to Georgia Tech [Georgia Institute of Technology]--

SM: Wow!

TC: --and my son got his MBA from Duke so they--My son joined the fraternities, 00:32:00or a fraternity. My daughter was--she did track so her college allegiance is in--their experiences were much broader than mine.

SM: Right. And how old are they now?

TC: My son is forty and my daughter is thirty-six.

SM: Okay. Well, what kind of--one of the questions we like to ask is, in order to frame your college years with kind of general history from the 1960s, so we always ask questions like "What was going on in the world at the time?" And obviously one of the big newsmakers during this time was the escalation of the Vietnam War. Do you have any memories that you can think [of], about the Vietnam War, if people you knew went to Vietnam or things like that?

TC: As far as the Vietnam War is concerned, it was--A&T had a lot of--they had 00:33:00the ROTC [Reserved Officers' Training Corps] program and I knew a lot more people there and I knew that it really affected the student body because of the drafts. And the year of graduation is the time that they had the disturbance over at A&T. Those students didn't actually graduate and they had the National Guard there.

SM: Do you have any memories about that? It doesn't have to be UNCG specific--we want to know about.

TC: I remember that whenever there was trouble at A&T or with the world in general, UNCG was always happy to let the black students go home just to keep everybody safe and to avoid having any problems there. I remember going over to A&T and seeing the bullet holes that the National Guard had put into the dorms.

SM: And I know a little bit about--there was a riot, basically, that turned ugly 00:34:00and no one, I think, was ever prosecuted for the murder--what was it about? What was kind of the central issue, do you remember?

TC: No. Well, A&T's reputation, you know--they were not like UNCG, they were just such a more outspoken community and because they were so directly affected by the [Vietnam] war and the politics--I really don't know what happened, why the National Guard was called. I can't help you there.

SM: But you remembered the event happening, and--

TC: Yes.

SM: Was your husband on campus at this point?

TC: He was.

SM: He was? So he might have a--

TC: Let's see. Actually he was not. I think he was on campus that year but he stayed off-campus for a while with his brother [telephone rings]. But fresh--senior year he was back on campus. So we work from home when we're here 00:35:00and then he works in Chicago. [referring to phone ringing] Yes, he has more memories. But again, remember, my dad wouldn't want me over there so I couldn't--I didn't do much.

SM: Another kind of--the '60s is a great time of, like, "Where were you when this event happened?" Though you weren't in college when JFK [President John F. Kennedy] was assassinated; you were when Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated. Do you remember anything about that?

TC: They let us go home.

SM: Really. Were you in class when you heard; I mean, how did you--how did the news hit you at UNCG?

TC: I don't know who told us we could go home, whether it was the--whether we were in class or whether it came through the dorm. I think one of the reasons my 00:36:00dad decided on UNCG is maybe he thought the girls would be protected and--which they did a really good job.

SM: And obviously, the Neo-Black Society formed, I guess maybe your junior year. Let's see, you were part of it your junior/senior year so it probably formed your junior year. I think it happened kind of running parallel to the rise of the black power movement. Do you have any memories of that happening in history or--

TC: I remember reading about it. I never participated in any of the movement, physically. No, I told you: I was a shy, retiring person and I knew my dad didn't--I couldn't do that.

SM: You'd be in trouble? Well, you say that after you graduated you got married. You got married, I guess, in your hometown?

TC: Yes, I did.

SM: And you immediately moved to Chicago?

TC: Anderson, Indiana.

SM: Anderson, Indiana, okay. And you said you haven't been much involved with UNCG since you graduated; never been back for any kind of events, or--

TC: I have not.

SM: But you stay in touch with your roommate?

TC: Yes, she's in touch with a lot more people so I can ask her.

SM: [laughs] Do you guys call each other frequently or do you--

TC: Yes, we do.

SM: That's good. So at least you stay, you know--that's a lot more than a lot of people can say.

TC: She was my maid of honor back in the day so--

SM: Oh, wow. That's really interesting. Well, one thing I would like to ask is kind of--we really like to know: "What would you want future students or scholars to know about your experience at UNCG?"

TC: Let's see, being one of the early black students to attend, I would just 00:38:00like students to know that they need to focus on what they need to do to graduate. It was a great place to be. I don't have any really, really bad memories of the school. Although, again I don't have the memories that my children have of their schools. But, again, I think it's because of their involvement in activities so I would recommend that students do try to be more involved than I was. Because that's your--that's where you start to make your mark and learn how to be in the world. Probably should speak out more in class and do a lot of things I didn't do. A lot of the questions you asked, I said, "Oh, no I didn't do that." But my daughter's like that but my grandchildren won't be like that.

SM: Right. Had you known about the integration of UNCG before you went there? I 00:39:00mean, had you heard about--?

TC: That was all my dad's doing.

SM: --because there were a good amount. Every year kind of doubled in size the number of black students so by the time you got there, there were, you know, probably twenty people who had come before you. But it all started with two women, two black women: Bettye Tillman and JoAnne Smart who came by themselves to UNCG. So I didn't know if you had heard anything or--no one from your hometown had gone to UNCG?

TC: No.

SM: No. Did a lot of people from your high school even go on to college?

TC: A lot of them did. When I say a lot, let's say maybe fifty percent because my community is small. There were some other neighboring areas, too, that students came from to go to school, but it's a farming area as well, so--at 00:40:00first I said fifty percent; let's just say maybe forty percent or something like that.

SM And had your mother gone to college?

TC: She went to college, I think, for two years.

SM: Okay. So I guess it was a, you know, pretty unusual for both your parents to have had some kind of college education, things like that. One thing we want to know is, basically, is how white students and black students mixed or didn't mix in social kinds of things--in the dorm because you lived on the--you always had a black roommate, correct?

TC: Yes. Maybe--was there a "Scott" over there? Now what was the name of that dorm? I just cannot remember. I should have had Martha Jo remind me. [laughs]

SM: But your freshman year when you didn't choose your roommate, when you moved in late, was that also a black student?

TC: It was.

SM: And you were on a floor with whites and blacks?

TC: Yes.

SM: Did you ever--did white students intermix with you guys or get to know you or--?

TC: A few of them did; a few of them did. But not a whole lot.

SM: Did any of your friends ever have white roommates?

TC: Maybe a few. We got to choose our roommate and I don't remember about freshman year. It's a wonder with my lack of knowledge here; you wonder how I got through all that. [laugher]

SM: It was a long time ago. I mean it's--we definitely understand that. But the--

TC: I think there was not--the interaction--nobody was really rude or mean to each other that I can remember. None of the students. When I went to UNCG, I guess before the integration, it had the reputation for being where the Southern 00:42:00belles went so certainly some of those thought they were a little too good to be associated with maybe black students, you know. But again I didn't need a whole lot of people, so I was fine.

SM: And you don't have any memories of being mistreated or--

TC: No.

SM: Never any kind of things done to you or--

TC: I did not.

SM: Interesting. And then the freshman year when you guys all lived in the house off-campus, was it all black students?

TC: It was. It was.

SM: Okay. Well, it's interesting now because UNCG--with the closing of the old Quad dorms to be renovated, they're having a major housing crisis shortage. So they've got students in like, lobby spaces; they've got students in multi-purpose rooms. Kind of the same thing, they don't have room for people yet. I guess they're waiting, maybe hoping there's room eventually.

TC: When is the renovation supposed to be done?

SM: It just started this summer and they have--I mean, they really--UNCG wanted to tear them down because they are so old and decrepit and they just needed so much work but there was such a backlash from the community and from the alumni who were threatening to withdraw support, you know, financially from the university if their dorms were torn down.

TC: Can they make them go wi-fi-ish and all of that with the--?

SM: I think that's one of these things like--they're all getting--they all have, like, window units, AC [air conditioning]; I think they're all going to get central units because with the window unit they can't open the windows so there's fire hazards there. And I think they had some kind of plumbing mold, all of these kinds of the issues with aging buildings. I was there probably in May or June when they were starting. I mean the buildings are gutted; I mean it's just the frame of a building left up. And so, all the kind of historic dorms that everybody remembers and the oldest buildings on campus are not being used right now because they're being renovated, but--there was a huge article in the Greensboro paper on the first week of class about students having to live in 00:44:00lounges and having to be put in apartments and--

TC: So are they trying to do all of the Quad at one time?

SM: Yes, at one time. It's a huge, huge undertaking but I guess I don't know--I think they're on the, like, a registry, maybe, of historic places. They probably have some kind of, I don't know, grants or something also helping them do this but it's been a really--It's been the biggest project to go on and definitely the most controversial. Because they really just wanted to wipe them out but their alumni just had a fit, especially since so many people had lived there. I mean, a lot of people lived in the same dorm all four years or--I mean my mom went to Elon [College] and she lived in the same room all four years.

TC: Really.

SM: So then in my college age that's unheard of. You know, I lived in the same dorm for two years but then my generation--we all moved off-campus to live in apartments which, you know, my mom's generation and I'm sure your generation: 00:45:00everybody stayed all four years.

TC: You needed to have a car to live off campus, right?

SM: Most of the time. Some people I knew didn't have cars but--because at Chapel Hill we had a bus system so that worked out for us but UNCG, there's not tons of housing right, you know, around the campus. Well, if there is nothing else--I have--I don't have any other formal questions unless there's anything else you want to add or any other things you can think of, or memories?

TC: No. So you will be finishing with this project and you'll be--when do you just sign completely off.

SM: Well, I'm done Wednesday essentially because it's kind of been--I was--a little bit about me: I guess I can turn this off now--