Oral history interview with Melinda Dean Pennix, 2015

LW: My name is Lisa Withers and today is Monday, June 15, 2015. I am in Jackson Library with Ms. Melinda D. Pennix, Class of 1973, to conduct an oral history interview for the UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, North Carolina] Institutional Memory Collection's African American Institutional Memory Project. Thank you, Ms. Pennix, for participating in this project and for sharing with me your life experiences or your college experience. I would like to start the interview off by asking about your childhood. Would you please share where and when you were born?

MP: I'm a native of Greensboro. Been in Greensboro all of my life. I was born at--then it was the hospital for blacks. I was born in L. Richardson Hospital on 00:01:00June 30, 1951, 5:22 AM. I was born into a two parent home, mother and father. When I was born, my mother was a high school graduate. My father never went as high as the sixth grade back in those days. His parents died--both of his parents died and the five children were broken up and different people in the community raised the kids. So, he was taken out of school to help the people that were raising him work their farm. My mother was a high school graduate. After she got married and had two children, she went to A&T [North Carolina Agricultural & Technical State University, Greensboro, North Carolina] and got her teacher's degree and became an elementary school teacher. I was in accelerated classes 00:02:00throughout my education because I was in the smart class in the fifth and sixth grade and then went to Lincoln [Junior High, Greensboro, North Carolina]--okay, I don't have a transcript so this is not going to be in order. I went to Bluford [Elementary School], Lincoln, and Dudley [High] School. Three black schools here in Greensboro. And was, like I said, was in accelerated classes all throughout my secondary career, educational career. And had the grades to make the Honor Society at Dudley but I talked too much and I got an "N" in conduct and, oh, I 00:03:00was devastated because all of my friends was in the Honor Society and I was like ostracized. They knew I was smart. But you just talked too much. And that was my career in Greensboro here at school. Now my best friend in high school was Evelyn Rochelle [Class of 1973] and she and I never discussed it until our senior year about where we were going to go to college. And I can't remember which one of us said it first but we both decided to go to UNCG and one of us said it and I was like, "Well, that's where I want to go." You know, we had always thought we would, you know, be separated. But it turns out we both wanted to go to UNCG. Okay, after I made that decision, my mother decided, okay, you're going to stay on campus that first year. She was trying to teach me independence. But I did not look forward to it because, like I said, I had been 00:04:00at the black schools--Bluford, Lincoln, and Dudley--and here you are going to put me on campus with them white people? Now you have to realize I'm a child of the sixties. I grew up with the six-thirty [evening] news showing German Shepherds chowing down on people of my color. And you going to send me out there with them? You know, in my young mind, all I could see was dogs chasing me. And I did not want to do it. But she--my mother was the type of person, she gave me no choice. Yes, you are going to go out there and you are going to stay on campus. Okay, whatever, you know. Like I said, I didn't have a choice, you know. Mother had spoken and that was it. Okay, I came out here my freshman year. I stayed in 00:05:00Mary Foust [Residence] Hall. Okay, there were some other girls from Dudley that decided to come to UNCG and it was like a domino effect. One was going to stay on campus so everybody else was going to stay on campus too. So we got here I think a day early and so that first night I slept in the room by myself. And that next morning, I can't remember what day it was, but we got up and were roaming around campus and as we came back to Mary Foust, okay, I was staying at Mary Foust. This other girl that I was close to was staying across the hall, across the street in Guilford [Residence Hall]. So we were coming back from roaming the campus, trying to discover where our classes were gonna be, and we saw this real pretty little black girl. She was fair complexioned, nice hair, and everything. So she walked up to us and she said, you know, Cassandra [Lowe] and I were talking and I said, "Oh, wonder whose roommate that is?" So she 00:06:00walked up to us and she said, "Melinda?" "Oh," I said, "Oh no." You know, I didn't say it out loud but in my mind--. Now at that time, I was a two hundred pound plus college freshman. This little lady couldn't have weighed a hundred and thirty pounds and she was very pretty. And here I'm going to be stuck with this girl? Oh, that was worse than being in the--living with white folks. But anyway, we got along pretty well, I thought, you know. I had never lived with anybody other than my family. I have a sister that's four years younger than me. 00:07:00So learning to live with somebody else, learning their likes and dislikes, their do's and their don'ts, it was an experience that I will never forget. She was a smart little girl and I thought I was smart until I got out here. You know, we had a teacher, "Ma" Coley [Nelle "Ma" Coley], in Honors English at Dudley--.

LW: What was the teacher's name again?

MP: "Ma" Co--. Her name was Nelle, N-e-l-l-e, Coley.

LW: C-o-l-e-y?

MP: Yes.

LW: And was that "Ma" as in M-a nickname?

MP: Yes.

LW: Okay.

MP: Everybody called her "Ma" because she taught my mother. She was just that old. But she was still sharp as a--whatcha call them? Sickle. And she told us one day in that Honors English class, oh you know, we thought we were the cream of the crop at Dudley. You know, we kind of looked down our nose at the other kids. Ya'll not smart as us. She slapped her hand on that desk and she told us, she 00:08:00said, "Let me tell ya'll one thing." She said, "One of these days when you get to college," she said, "you're smart here," she said, "but you're gonna realize you ain't nothing when you get in a group of other kids who are smart too." And that woman never lied. She ain't never lied. When I came over here and started getting--I don't know what the plural is--syllabuses, the syllabi, from these professors and all they expected out of you, and you know it's up to you whether you do it or not. I'm not going to tell you every night you got homework. This is what I expect out of you by the end of the semester. Yes, yes, yes, I wasn't as smart as I thought I was. But, UNCG put me through my paces. You know, I tell people, you know, I have good friends who are not college graduates. And I always tell them, college does not make you smarter, not unless you are going into a technical field. Now I majored in English and I told them I said, 00:09:00"College prepares you for life. College prepares you for the toils and tribulations that you're going to run through and run into living life." You know, and after these professors, once they embarrass you, calling on you in class, and they call on you because they see that you are daydreaming, they call on you to bring you back into what you are supposed to be doing. But all you hear is, "Miss Pennix [mimics talking sounds]." I don't know what he was talking about, I don't know why he is calling my name. Why is he calling my name? He knows I'm not paying attention. But, that's life. That's the way life is. But that's enough of that question right there. I know [laughter] I know you're 00:10:00bound to have another--.

LW: Oh no no. It's a--whatever you would like to share. I like--I like listening so I'm always fascinated by the stories.

MP: Well, see, I am a great talker. Hence that "N" in conduct that kept me out of the Honor Society. When I say "great talker," I always considered myself to be like Mister Ed. Now see you don't even know who Mister Ed is.

LW: The talking horse?

MP: The talking horse, yes.

LW: That Mister Ed.

MP: Mister Ed will never speak unless he has something to say. Now, when I talk, I feel like I'm saying something. You know, everybody might not feel like I'm saying something but I feel like I'm saying something. I hate to be interrupted. I don't ever interrupt anybody else, well rarely. Sometimes, you know--. But, I mean, I make it a habit not to interrupt anybody else because I 00:11:00don't like to be interrupted because at this age, you know if somebody interrupts you, your thought flies on out the window. When they finish saying what they got to say, you don't even remember what you was saying. So I try to, you know. Alright, when I was at UNCG, some of the high points, like I said, I majored in English. English was the only course that I made "A"'s in. I took debating and I will never forget that man. His name was [L.] Dean Fadley. He gave me an "F" in debating. And to this day I don't know why. I turned it all the work. We had to--I don't remember what the topic was. I was not on the debating team. Now, during the course of my life I have told people that I was on the debating team at UNCG because I do have the gift of gab. I'm a reasonable 00:12:00person. I'm not impulsive. I think things through. I see the plus and the minuses of all situations before I make a decision. And I told one of my pastors, I said, "You know, I was on the debating team at UNCG." And I was not on the debating team but I took the debating course. They don't have to know I got an "F" in it because I don't know why I did. I turned in all the work. But you know, back in that day, back in those days, and as I walked on the campus, I realized I have been--I have been gone from UNCG for forty-two years. That's more 00:13:00than a generation. You know, I don't feel that old. You know, I was looking at these kids when I came on campus and they look just so young. And I was thinking, "I didn't ever look that young." But I guess I did to somebody my age who came onto campus back in that day, but, UNCG was a force in my life. Because, like I said, I went to black schools first through twelfth grades. All I'd seen was black people. There were a couple of white teachers but they didn't take an interest in the black kids. You could tell that they were there because of, they had to integrate the staff, the faculty, whatever you want to call it. You know, "Ma" Coley, she was interested in us. She wanted us to do the best. 00:14:00And there were other teachers that were in my life that, you know, you didn't play with them. They didn't play with us. You were going to do that work. The white teachers, they didn't care whether you did it or not. You know, I'm going to give it to you. If you don't want to turn in it, that's fine. I can put that zero beside your name because it didn't mean anything to them. No, the black teachers, you were going to do that work if you had to stay after school, if you had to do it two or three days in a row until you got it right. You were going to do it. That's caring. But when I got to UNCG, I had been ostracized in high school because I was. I was the big, fat girl. And when I hear now about bullying these kids--it's just a rite of passage. It happens to everybody. And when I see it happening to the little white kids, you know, I realize it's just a rite of passage. You know, it wasn't only in the black community. You know it 00:15:00saddens me when I hear that the white kids commit suicide behind it. They kill themselves. That's horrible, that's horrible. You're gonna outgrow it. You're not going to be sixteen, seventeen, eighteen forever. You're going to be twenty-three, twenty-four, twenty-five, thirty-six, thirty-seven, thirty-eight and so forth. You know, life is not easy. You just have to learn to live it. And like I said, going through college teaches you what life is all about. But these kids, they commit suicide before they even finish high school. It really saddens me, it saddens me. But UNCG, when I got out here, I was surprised that I was accepted as a human being. I really was cause at Dudley, you know, I was a 00:16:00little fat girl. You know, nobody wanted to be on that team, nobody wanted to be bothered with me. You know and Evelyn, like I said, she and I were good friends because she was rejected too. Evelyn and I were not pretty. We were not shapely. We weren't majorettes. We weren't cheerleaders. You know and that's the hierarchy in high school. And so we learned to pal around with each other. But when I got to UNCG, these white girls out here, and I'm just being honest, these white girls accepted me as a human being. They didn't look at me as a, "Oh, that's a fat black girl. Don't want to be bothered with her. She probably stinks." And it taught me to be more accepting of myself because when I first came to UNCG, I had the self-esteem of about one-inch tall, knee high. I was knee high to a toad frog in self-esteem. But the more and more I stayed out here 00:17:00and they accepted me and the more I became indoctrinated in my classes. I took P.E. [physical education], I took swimming. I fell out one day in the dressing room of the swimming pool. I was on my period and I used to have really, really bad heavy periods and I knew I wasn't supposed to be going swimming. But, I wanted to go swimming. So, I went swimming and I had to pull myself out of the pool and I told the instructor I was sick and I went in the room and I fell out. I don't know how long I was out but when the other girls came in and they saw me, got me up and whatever and whatever, and I've had lots of experiences like that here at UNCG where the white girls let me know, "You're just a human being." You know, like I said, I'm a child of the sixties. I know what I saw on 00:18:00TV. All I saw was white people beating up black, colored people. We were colored back then--beating up colored people and the dogs chasing us, the fire hoses and all of that. Now, Greensboro was very instrumental in the Civil Rights era. We all know about the four fellows who went to the Woolworth's and all of that. And my church, Bethel [African Methodist Episcopal] Church, was instrumental in the demonstrations. By this time my mama had finished her degree at A&T when she'd get out of school, finished teaching, she'd come home, feed us, we'd go to church and we'd march from our church, my church sits at the corner of Friendly Avenue and Regan Street, we'd march straight downtown. Go around what was then Jefferson Standard, it's known as Lincoln Financial now. We'd march around there two or three times around the Woolworth's and then march right on back down to 00:19:00Bethel. I didn't know what I was marching for then. I was marching because my mama said, "Here we go." But, now when Mr. Obama was elected as president, I was there for that inauguration. That's the day I knew what I was marching for. Ask me something else. I feel like I'm just rambling.

LW: [Chuckles] It's alright. Well, I was gonna go back. You mentioned you got "N" and "O" conduct grade. You know what the "N" and "O" stood for?

MP: I got an "N," needs improvement.

LW: Okay.

MP: You must have [misunderstood]. I don't know about an "O."

LW: Oh, okay. So it was just the "N" conduct grade.

MP: Yes.

LW: Okay, just want to make sure I have that down.

MP: You got "S"'s or got an "N" or you got a "U."

LW: A "U," okay.

MP: So I was glad I didn't get "U." I just got an "N."

LW: Just an "N," okay.

MP: Conduct needed improvement and you could not be in the Honor Society with a bad conduct grade. I had all the "A"'s and "B"'s. I rarely got a "C." I got a "C" one time in chemistry and I had to buy that.

LW: Buy that?

MP: Let me tell you how I bought it. My chemistry teacher, who shall remain nameless because I see her periodically, she was the advisor to the yearbook. And she knew that there were some of us who were struggling. She told us if we got ads for the yearbook, we could get extra credit. Now, I knew that I could not--I tell people today. You know, there are a whole lot of things in life that I don't understand. Chemistry, biology, trigonometry, I just don't understand that. There's obviously a place for it in this world but I don't understand it. 00:21:00Okay, so, I got a bunch of ads and still all I could get was a "C," you know. But anyways, Malcom X said, "By any means necessary" [speech given in 1964]. So, I wanted to get that "C." So that was probably--that was the lowest grade I ever made in high school, a "C."

LW: So you mentioned you majored in English when you was at UNCG. Was that a carryover from in high school? Was that also your favorite subject?

MP: No, I tell you what. I wanted to major in music when I came to UNCG. I used to be the pianist for the Sunday School. I had taken piano lessons and I really enjoyed music. And I came to UNCG my freshman year and we used to, well it still is, a little strip mall down there on Tate Street. You know, that's where you would catch the bus to go downtown. And we would stand there to catch the bus 00:22:00and we would hear these music majors in there--is the music building still there? Okay. We would hear them in there. They would be vocalizing. They would be playing instruments and everything. And it seemed like, of course we couldn't see them. But every time you went to catch the bus it was somebody down there and I said, "No, I'm not spending all my time in the Music Building." So by my sophomore year I had become interested in English. I've always--I've always enjoyed talking and I've always enjoyed writing. So, I wanted to--I could've been an Oprah [TV personality]. I should've been an Oprah. Oprah can't talk a bit better than me. She has just done it longer and practice makes perfect. She--and see Oprah was overweight too. Now, when I graduated from UNCG, I went to WFMY-TV, out here, to channel two, the CBS station to apply to be a--I wanted to 00:23:00be a news writer. Okay, because I was big and, you know, I had never seen a big woman on TV, a big, black woman on TV? Huh, that's ridiculous. Who do you think you are? Okay, so I went out there and I applied and I told them, "No, I don't want to be on TV. I want to be the one that writes the news for the anchors, for the reporters." And he told me, and he said, "No," he said, "our reporters do their own copy." I see the dress now that I had on for that interview. Oh, that--I was crushed. I was crushed. Because now I done spent four years getting a 00:24:00degree and this is what I want to do and you're telling me I can't do it? But see, Oprah had the determination not to take "No" for an answer. See all I should have done was said, "Okay, I'll be on camera." But no, I got--even though my self-esteem had increased, it had not increased enough that I wanted to be on TV every day. I just--no, I just didn't have that. Alright, so, like I said, you get these easy credit cards. I had to do something. I had to do something. I got bills to pay. Alright, they wouldn't let me be on the TV so I went to John Marshall Stevenson, at the time. He was the editor, publisher, owner of the Carolina Peacemaker [newspaper, Greensboro, North Carolina]. He has since changed his name to John Marshall Kilimanjaro because he wanted to be the 00:25:00highest peak--okay. So I went to him and he hired me as his ace reporter. Okay, I was from Greensboro. I knew most of the ministers in town. I knew the ins and outs of Greensboro basically. So I worked there for a while. In the meantime, two other girlfriends, no, one other girlfriend of mine asked me, she said, "You want to get an apartment?" Yes, because I was living at the house with my mama and daddy and my daddy's house rule was you had to beat him home from work. That was your curfew and at that time he was working at the post office and he got off work at twelve o'clock. We didn't live but about eight minutes from that post office. You had to be home before ten minutes after twelve at night. Now, 00:26:00I'm a college graduate and I got to be home by ten after twelve? No, I ain't doing that. Okay, so we got a three bedroom apartment with another girl. That worked out for a year, one of the longest years of my life. But anyway, okay, I worked for John Marshall and I did pretty good, did pretty good. But, now this was in 1973, he only paid me ninety dollars a week. Ninety dollars a week and he had his, one of his wife's nephews was the general manager of the--ran the office 00:27:00so to speak. I went in there one day because I had been telling them, "You know I need more money." You know, at ninety dollar a week, what's that--three hundred and sixty dollars a month. And what was my share of the rent? My share of the rent was, seems like it was eighty-five dollars. So, a week's pay just paid for my rent. I still had to have groceries, gas, I had a car. So, it pissed me off one day and I went in there to John, I mean, what was his name? Stan [Davis]. His name was Stan. I went in there to him and I said something about I needed some more--I asked him how much was their income a week. I don't know, I can't remember what I asked him. But anyway, he told me, he said, "That ain't any of your fucking business." Now see that pissed me off. And I told him, "My fucking business does not belong in this office." I said, "And you don't talk to me like 00:28:00that." So I left out. I didn't quit that day but it wasn't too much longer I did quit the job. I just quit. I could, I could not continue, you know, my story, my byline was on the front page every, every week. I was supporting that paper. I was the paper. At ninety dollars a week and I'm a college graduate. Alright, here I am. You got rent to pay. You got a car payment to make and you just quit your job. What you going to do? Oh boy. You know you grow up in a hurry, PDQ--pretty damn quick. Alright, I happened to be out at Cook's department store 00:29:00that no longer exists in Greensboro now. But it's out there where--it was out there where Burlington Coat Factory is on High Point Road [now Gate City Boulevard], and I saw that they said they needed a security guard. I didn't know nothing about being a security guard but I went and talked to the man who already was one and he told me, he said, "You're just what I'm looking for. I need a black female." Okay, so that's fine. I don't care. Call me whatever you want to call me. I need the money. I need a job. Alright, so I started working out there. I was looking for shoplifters. I'd walk through the store. They had catwalks, you know, that you could, you know, climb the ladder and they had a platform with a two way mirror, you could watch people. I was surprised. People were just so abrasive. You know they stupid. I could catch people all the time. 00:30:00And then I caught this man who stole a pair of shoes. He took his shoes off, put them on the shelf and was going to walk out the store with the new shoes on. So I caught--I approached him at the door. "Sir, wait just a minute. I need to speak to you." That man took off running. Of course he did. Did I run after him? No, you can have them shoes. I wasn't running after you. But anyway, I had some adventures out there. You know, throughout my life, I have told all of my friends, relatives, whatever and whatever, when I die, don't be doing no whole bunch of crying for me. God has been good to me. I am a believer. I have had some experiences in my life that would make anybody, the strongest person cry. 00:31:00But then I have had experiences in my life that I would not trade not for all the money in the world. You know, I have--I know that--I know that I have the ever loving arms of God wrapped around me. I have been in some tight spots. Lord, have mercy, Jesus, that's all I could do. Shake my head. What am I do now? Just help me, what am I do? [Coughing] And here I am today. He has helped me. You know, I think a lot of times about atheists. I think a lot of times about heaven. When I was married and I was married for eighteen years, my mother-in-law told me one day about heaven. Now, I don't how it came up. I told her, I said, "Marjorie, I don't know about that heaven." I said, "They said they going to feed you milk and honey all the time." I said, "Milk gives me gas and honey constipates me." So I said, "I'm going to be walking around on streets of 00:32:00gold with gas and constipated. I don't know if I want that or not." But now, I was at church yesterday. I went to a Friends and Family Day at this church and this man said things that were the closest to what I believe that I've ever heard. He said, and now I have to paraphrase it, excuse me, he said something like, "Your everlasting life is now." He said, "This is your heaven." And that's what I believe. Now, you know, I saw a picture, not too long ago on TV. It was 00:33:00a--I guess it was taken by the Hubble telescope that's out there in space and the narrator said, "Each one of those dots represents a galaxy like our Milky Way." Wait a minute. If each one of the them is as big as what we see our seven, eight planets and the sun, and each one of those dots represents that, where is heaven? You know, I like to, I like to think, I like to think and I spend a lot of time in solitude. I live by myself. My daughter is twenty-eight. She lives with her father with her son and I just enjoy my solitude. And--because I enjoy 00:34:00thinking, you know, I'm not a great philosopher. But I think. I'm not impulsive. I don't ever do anything impulsive. Something don't come in my mind and I do it just like that. No, no, there are consequences to every decision you make. And when you make it, you don't know what the consequences are but when you make a decision you better have some sort of Plan B in effect so that if A don't work you got B. But anyhow, let me tell you, Lisa, and I know this may not be on whatever--.

LW: It is recording.

MP: I thank you for calling me to be a part of this. Now you may use one sentence, you may use two sentences. You may discard the whole thing. But I thank you for asking me to be a part of this study.

LW: Well, thank you for participating.

MP: Okay.

LW: [Chuckles]. Well I would like to back up. I know you talked--you mentioned earlier about your decision to come to UNCG and how you and your best friend from high school, you had this revelation like, "Oh, you both wanted to come." But I wondered if you could tell why was it you wanted to come? Especially since you have A&T, you have Dudley, I know a lot of people went to Durham, [North Carolina] to Central [North Carolina Central University]. Or even to Chapel Hill [The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, North Carolina] at that time, which was also integrating.

MP: Okay, my mama had told me, now she was an A&T alumna. And my mother in, let me see. I forget what year. She was Miss Alumni for the Gate City Chapter of A&T alumni. But she did not want me to go to A&T. I can't tell you why. She's deceased now. I can't tell you. I just think--you know how parents want something better for their children. I just think--she knew I was smart. I had gotten some scholarship money. I think she just wanted me to go to a white institution. She 00:36:00was the first person on her side of the family to go to college. I was going to be the second and back in the day, like I said, you know, UNCG had been integrated. But when I was here, I don't want to lie, but I'm pretty sure there were fewer than two hundred black students here. And she just wanted me to be in that number. And Evelyn's mother was older than my mother and Evelyn's mother had been a teacher also, and you know, so we both had been teacher's students, teacher's kids. And back in the day, teachers, black teacher's kids were in the higher echelon, you know, so both of our parents just wanted us to go to white 00:37:00schools. Now, that's what I think. I don't know anything any different but that's just what I think.

LW: Okay.

MP: Now, since you brought that up. Now, I told you my mother was going to make me stay on campus that first year. Okay, that summer after I moved all my stuff back home, she tells me, "Well, I guess you better find, put your stuff back where it's going to be because you're moving back home." I said, "But I'm going back in September." She said, "What you mean?" I said, "I'm not going to live at home anymore. I'm going to stay on campus." She said, "Okay, well you are going to pay your own room and board." Okay, now that's something I hadn't planned on, you know. You're going to make me stay on campus, you know, I figured I'm going to get another free ride. Okay, but, I always tell people the best thing she 00:38:00ever did for me was to make me stay on campus that first year. The second best thing she did for me, she told me, "You're going to have to pay your own room and board." So I figured out how much the room and board was. I was set out to earn that much money during the summer. I did and I did that the following three years. One year I worked at Cone Mills. Oh Lord, no I worked there two years. This was before Cone Mills became automated [chuckles]. Oh boy, you know, I saw those people working in Cone Mills and that taught me that I was not going to work hard for a living. I saw people there, there was this one man I see his face now. That man had to be in his eighties and if he wasn't, he looked liked it. He had worked, oh, old white man. You could see all the veins, little 00:39:00capillaries I guess you call them in his face. He was nothing but a skeleton with skin over it. But that man worked like a Trojan. And you could tell he had been doing this for years. No, I don't want to work like that. No ma'am, no sir, please thank you. No. But I did it for two summers. But the way I did it, you know it wasn't nice but they let me do it. They put me on one job, you know, training with somebody. I think one of them was called culling. You had to take these spools of thread and you had, no, that was in the weave room. You had to take these spools of thread and put them on the battery that, that wove the 00:40:00denim. And, it was fascinating to me. It was fascinating. And like I said they trained me. In time--you had to work your speed up. You had to work your speed up. Like I said, this was not the automated Cone Mills. This was the old timey old Cone Mills. And in the weave room, there was these things up in the ceilings that shot steam out so that the material would not get too dry and break. You know they had to keep a certain moisture level. Now, at the same time, there was lint flying all through the, you know, from the spools of thread, flying all through the air. All of the women, the blacks and the whites, you went to work with your hair tied up. But by the team you got off in the morning, you had lint all in your nose. Everybody looked like--I don't know what we looked like but, it 00:41:00was, you know, I don't know now whether it was cotton dust or disease or whatever but they got a name for it or whatever. But, every time they tell me, you know, I'd build my speed up, okay, you ready to take over a section by yourself. I don't like this. I want to learn something else. Okay, they put me someplace else. I did that for two summers to earn my room and board. One summer I worked out at K&W Cafeteria, back in the kitchen. And that was the summer I was in summer school and I was taking--it was a drama class. Was it acting? I forgot. It had something because we took it in Aycock Auditorium and I remember 00:42:00one day I wore my uniform to work because I had to go to school right after the class and we had to say something as we walked across the stage. I said my line but I spaced it out so that I didn't say the line and then you still got half a stage to go across. And the teacher complimented me on that. Nobody else had done that. You know, and I, see, I do know a little something. I ain't been watching TV for nothing, but anyway, okay, another question.

LW: Yes, well, I was going to do a follow up. I know earlier you had talked about, I believe you and Evelyn came a day early onto campus and so you walked around. Do you remember some of the other things you saw on your first few days here on campus or any experiences?

MP: Okay, we went up to--do you still have that statue of Charlie McIver?

LW: McIver? Yes.

MP: Yes.

LW: He's right in front of Jackson Library.

MP: Okay.

LW: In front of the main section.

MP: Okay, yes.

LW: He's still there.

MP: You know they used to have something called Fall Charlies and Spring Charlies around here.

LW: Oh.

MP: It was some kind--it was like a festival atmosphere type thing. And that's what the--and so if--we found Charlie, we found the library, we found Elliott Hall, which, what you say they call it now?

LW: Elliot University Center.

MP: Okay. It used to be Elliot Hall. We went over to-- because Evelyn lived in the Quadrangle. Is that what it?

LW: The Quad.

MP: The Quad, yes. Cotten [Residence] Hall over there, okay.

LW: A lot of people have been talking about Cotten Hall and freshman year.

MP: Okay. Yes, that's where she was. So she was across campus from where I was and our parents were happy about that because they felt like we needed to meet 00:44:00new people. Now, we had been stuck together like glue for the past six, seven years. Ya'll need to meet some new people. So, and then I had to meet this pretty little girl. Here I am the fatso--but we got along fine. But, yes. We found the cafeteria, of course. And the--we had to find out where our classes were. What's that main, there's a classroom building, McIver? Is it still here?

LW: McIver, yes, it's still standing.

MP: Okay.

LW: Well, it's different now. Well, I'm trying to remember. They had the old McIver but then sometime during the sixties, I don't remember the exact date. They actually tore down the original one and built one that was in more modern architecture. So that's what still stands today.

MP: Okay.

LW: And so, but they also have Foust, which was the original, when the 00:45:00university was opened back in--it was charted in 1891. I think the first class came in '82, '92--1892, 1893, and that's still stands in its original red brick, nineteenth century--.

MP: The administration building.

LW: Yes, I believe it was used as administration at that time and today--I know it houses the Dean of the Arts and Science, I believe, College and Religious Studies is housed in there. Study abroad office is in there now. They've changed some things around. So, your first day was mostly just exploring campus?

MP: Yes.

LW: Those first few days. Oh, what did ya'll do for social activities while you were here?

MP: Okay, Shirley [Evon Chestnut, Class of 1973], that was my roommate, pretty little girl, knew some fellows from Durham. Shirley was from Durham and they 00:46:00went to A&T and they had an apartment somewhere here in town. I forget now where that apartment was. So a lot of times we used to go to their place and have parties. What did we do to socialize? We didn't socialize. We studied. And I can't remember which year. Maybe, okay, Leon was a year behind me so it had to be my sophomore or junior year a group of us started the Neo-Black Society because at that time there was nothing for black students. There was nothing for us to do. We could go to the student union. You know, they had movies, you know. They weren't first rate movies, you know, that were at--they were new movies 00:47:00within a year of itself you know. We could come over here and show your ID and, you know, watch the movie. They had concessions, you know here, and there wasn't a whole lot to do. You know, we were coming in and you were talking about Starbucks and stuff like that. Well Starbucks wasn't open then but, you know, they didn't have that kind of stuff here. You know I'm kind of--jealous is too firm a word--envious maybe I should say, of college life now because when I was--when we were out here, we didn't have this kind of stuff. And most of the black kids didn't have the discretionary funds to do what the white kids were doing, you know. We were just glad to be in the number, you know, we just glad to be out here, boss, yes sir boss. But we didn't do much, you know. If you knew somebody in town you could go to a party or, like I said, you could catch the 00:48:00bus and go downtown because Four Seasons Mall had not been built then. But there wasn't a whole lot of entertainment.

LW: Okay, can you tell me. Oh, I'm sorry.

MP: No, every once in a while I was thinking as I drove up here today. I looked at Aycock Auditorium. They would bring these big bands to town. When I say big bands, I remember the Impressions, Curtis Mayfield and the Impressions came. Seems like, and this maybe a figment of my imagination, seems like Chaka Khan and Rufus came one time. You know there are bands that, I'm sure they still do it now, that travel the college circuit, you know, and that's what, you know, occasionally, maybe three times a year they would have them. Maybe twice a year, I don't, I can't remember that being far but I do remember the Impressions were here. And they would bring white bands, black bands, you know. They did not try 00:49:00to cater to the black students, you know. You could go if you want to, if you don't, you don't, you know. But, we could come over here and shoot pool or whatever. You know, when you're in college you learn how to play Bid Whist and I used to play with some girls. If you don't know the game of Bid Whist, what I'm getting ready to say won't mean anything to you but I have played with girls that would bid a six no.

LW: A six no?

MP: Six no and make it

LW: Six dash, n-o.

MP: Six n-o. And then I have played with girls who knew how to bid a seven, a seven. You know that's phenomenal, that's phenomenal. I have--one of my hobbies now is playing Bid Whist. I belong to two Bid Whist clubs. I play on Tuesday. I 00:50:00play on Saturday and nothing don't--I don't make any plans for those times. That's my time to get away from whatever is going on at the house, whatever is going in with my life. I could sit here and play and talk junk, you know, that's the most important part about playing Bid Whist. I might not beat you but dog gone it, I'll talk you. But--ask me another question.

LW: Well you mentioned you were part of the founding of the Neo-Black Society? Could you talk a little bit more about the organization, its purpose, what you--what was done by the students from your perspective?

MP: Alright, this young man, Leon Chestnut, was my best friend here at UNCG, but anyway, we weren't militant. We weren't subversive. But we noticed, that 00:51:00there, you know, there wasn't anything for black people to do here on campus. Like I said, we didn't have any kind of entertainment. You know we didn't want to be catered to. You know A&T is right down the street, you know. But, at least acknowledge that we're here. Okay, so we got together with some other students and we formed what we called Neo-Black Society. Okay, new black society. We went before the student government and got funding. Okay, but then they gave us--we 00:52:00had, this was, they gave us a broom closet in Elliot Center. They cleaned it out to give us a place to congregate where you can go and be with your people, be with your kind or whichever way you want to put it. Okay, we appreciated it. They paint--all the walls were cinderblock. So we got an artist from A&T to come over and paint red, black, and green seams. They had a man and a woman. It wasn't pornographic but it was a man and a woman. I can't remember now what all but the space was probably this big. You know, it was, partitioned differently but it was a place that you know let's go over to the NBS room. You know, you could go over there. You could play cards, whatever. It gave us a sense of, --You 00:53:00do belong on this campus. We do want you here on this campus,-- because before then, like I said, there was nothing black here. There was nothing black here. And we were appreciative. Anyway, okay that had to be sophomore. By my junior year there were some white kids who felt like we should not be funded by the SGA.

LW: Student Government Association.

MP: Yes. They took us before--oh, we had a hearing. Oh girl. It was--oh, it was--. It was exciting but it was scary too because see the [Klu Klux] Klan was still active back in that day. Yes ma'am. They had never come on campus now but, you know, they stood just, not literally, but they were just far enough way that 00:54:00they'd let you know, you know, we can reach out and touch you whenever we get ready. Okay. What was that boy's name? Steve. White fellow, he went on to law school, and he almost hit me one day in his car and he didn't know it was me but I knew it was him. But anyway, he was the ring leader of trying to get our money taken from us. They did not take it but they scared the heck out of us about thinking that they were going to take our funding. Now, I can't tell you what we did with the money. I know we paid to have that painting done. We weren't going to Huey Newton rallies. You know, but, I was just, I was not, I was not an officer because I didn't want to be an officer because, quite honestly, 00:55:00academically I struggled here at UNCG. And I knew I didn't need nothing outside, you know. My freshman year I had some scholarship money. The rest of the years my education was paid for with cash from my mama and me. I think there was one year she signed up for deferred payments, you know. You didn't have to pay it all in September but by the time May came you had to have all that money paid for. Ask me something else.

LW: [Chuckles] Okay, do you remember the administration when you were here? Chancellor [James] Ferguson, the Dean of Women Mereb Mossman?

MP: Yes, yes, yes.

LW: Can you tell me a little bit about them and if you had any interactions with them?

MP: I remember when we were here the Dean of Students was Allen. Was it James 00:56:00[H.] Allen?

LW: The Dean of Students? I have Katherine Taylor, I think.

MP: No, I don't know her.

LW: No? There have been several people. I know Barbara Parrish was the Alumni Secretary. I know Mereb Mossman, she had several different roles within the university. She was here for a long time. She may have been that at one time.

MP: Well, look up Allen. I think his name was James [H.] Allen.

LW: James [H.] Allen.

MP: Yes, either way, last name was Allen. He selected me couple of times to be on ad hoc committees to formulate policy for the university. And the reason I remember him because I used him on--used his name on my resume plenty of times. 00:57:00Now Chancellor Ferguson, is he still living?

LW: I'm not sure. I'd have to look that up.

MP: But I remember one night we went to his house and woke him up, black students. Yes we did. Because they--when the white kids decided they didn't want to fund us anymore and we felt like that was the thing to do and that's what we did. We went over there, woke him up. Because the campus--the house was right here on campus. Woke him up, he came downstairs in his pajamas. Yes he did. He talked to us but all he was doing was placating us. He wanted to go back to bed. You know, we knew it, he knew it. And now--I guess we knew it in our hearts. He couldn't do anything about it. You know, he was the chancellor, he had to oversee everything. He couldn't say, "Ya'll give those black kids some money." 00:58:00He couldn't do that. But when you're upset, you're not thinking about what reality is. You just want somebody to listen to you and it was a good idea to wake him up and make him listen to us and that's what we did. But anyways, a long story of the Neo-Black Society, last year I was contacted about--was it last year? It might have been two years ago now cause my forty year reunion--two years ago. Forty--forty years ago was 2013 and they wanted me to help with Homecoming for UNCG and they wanted to meet on campus. We met in the Elliott University Center and so since I was here, I said, "I'm going to go down to the NBS lounge." And I went down there. Oh, my feelings got--oh I was crushed. I was so 00:59:00hurt. They had painted the walls white. They had painted us away. Now I realized that was stuff that was forty years old but it hurt. It hurt and in forty years you will understand what I'm talking about. You know, I understand progress. I understand progress because when I was coming along, we didn't have cell phones. We didn't have an iPad, an mp3 player. We didn't have that kind of stuff so this is progress and I understand that but it hurt. All that we had gone through to get even a broom closet and then they done painted over it. I don't know what it was in there. They had something there. After I walked in the door and I could see in the room that was it. I didn't do nothing else for Homecoming. No, no. 01:00:00You know, and I contribute to the annual alumni giving campaign, but these people over here they worry the piss out of a piss ant. Oh Lord! They call, they call, they call, they call, they call. I send them twenty-five dollars. Oh we thank you for that twenty-five dollars but we need some more. Look, you better be glad I--. Well anyway. Life goes on. I told a charitable organization just the other day, take my name off your list because if you give to them once they're going to call you right back within about three months. It's a place here in town over there on Lendew Street. Make a Wish Foundation. You give them some money and then I send them twenty-five dollars you know, and then, "Ms. Pennix, 01:01:00we're having another drive." "Another drive? I just sent you twenty-five dollars." "Oh ma'am this is another drive. We're starting a new one." Take my name off your list. I got--I got more to do than support ya'll. I mean come on, come on now. You know, I believe in giving back, yes, but I got to survive too, survival of the fittest. Only the strong survive. Charity begins at home and spreads abroad. You know, I have been blessed, yes I have. But I want to continue to be blessed. And if you're going to be blessed you better use your own common sense. Shoot, I'm not Donald Trump [famous TV personality]. I'm not Oprah. Not a chance, no, no, no.

LW: Well, one of the things about campus life I wanted to ask, you know, even though when you were here, the university had just become UNCG, co-educational. You know, what was your--was there any--did you experience it really feel like 01:02:00co-education or did it really still have that woman's college feel to it?

MP: It still felt like a woman's college and let me--I don't remember what year it became UNCG but I was here many years after it became UNCG but it was still an overwhelmingly woman's population. You know, you could not think you was going to find a boyfriend here at UNCG. Now, even the white girls knew they wasn't going to find no boyfriend at UNCG. Most of the girls that were in our dorm, okay, I lived in Mary Foust the first year and I lived in Cone [Residence] Hall the next three years. I remember this girl, she was a gorgeous white girl, just gorgeous. She would pack up every Friday evening and go to Carolina and 01:03:00stay there until Sunday evening and then she'd come back. And there were plenty of girls if they weren't going to Carolina they were going to State [North Carolina State University, Raleigh, North Carolina] or Duke [University, Durham, North Carolina]. You know, there weren't no men here at UNCG and the ones that were not studly, you know what I mean. You know they were--there was Farmer Brown's son right here, you know. But, yes, I--didn't Woman's College [of the University of North Carolina] change to UNCG back in the sixties?

LW: It was the '63/'64 school year.

MP: Okay, yes. And I came here in '69. Okay.

LW: It was still adjusting.

MP: Yes.

LW: But we still like to ask to kind of see from a student's perspective kind of what they thought of it. So being that it still had that woman's college feel, any campus traditions that were still going on when you were here? Or any 01:04:00that, when you were here, that you participated in or observed? Anything that you knew they did annually?

MP: Well, like I said the Fall and Spring Charlies, and I can't even remember what that was.

LW: I was going to ask--I never heard of those.

MP: You ask somebody. Ask an older administrator here what--but then like I said, that was over forty years ago, so. But they did, they used to have something called Fall Charlies. What was Fall Charlies? I can't remember but I remember that there was something--. It was an occasion. And what did they do? Was it Homecoming? Is that what they called Homecoming? No, because they did it twice a year. It was Fall Charlies which was in October and Spring Charlies which was in April. But I can't tell you what they were.

LW: [Chuckles] It's alright. But did you participate in class jackets? I know some people have mentioned them.

MP: Yes, I have a class jacket.

LW: Okay. They were still doing that and they used to have class rings.

MP: I got a class ring.

LW: Okay, so that was some of the things. You did mention the dining hall. It's always interesting to hear different perspectives of what it was like to eat in the dining hall [chuckles].

MP: I loved the dining hall because I was a big girl and I loved to eat. I was fascinated because you could eat as much as you wanted. You could go back and get some more. You know and all this is free? You know what I mean when I say free. You ain't got to pay, there's no cashier, nothing. You had a card, you know, you had to show when you ate. But once you got in the dining room and you had showed your card, shoot, you could eat until they had to roll you out. Now, we used to, we had names for different things. And without being so crass, they 01:06:00had, seemed like we had corndogs at least three times a week, at least. And we called the corndogs "shit on a stick." But, you know, you could get as much ice cream. You know they had the soft swirl, oh boy, oh I thought I had died and gone to heaven, oh boy, and you could have more than one piece of cake. Oh. I owe this diabetes is to UNCG right now. I had no self-control. It was like suey, suey, pigs to the trough, you know, here you go. Eat as much as you want. If you ain't got no mama to tell you to stop eating, you done had enough. Don't make a pig out yourself. Shoot. That was--that was probably the best thing about UNCG. 01:07:00Eat as much as you want, all you want, all day. Three times a day. You know we had meal plans. Seems like you could be on a two-meal plan a day and then there was the three-meal plan. I was on the two-meal plan. You could choose whatever two meals those were. I always had early classes so I didn't get up in enough time to go to early--breakfast. So I had the lunch and dinner plan, yes. Then you could take stuff out to your room too? Oh, shoot, child please. I done died and 01:08:00gone to heaven.

LW: [Chuckle] So, I know you had mentioned when you were young, your mother would have you do protest marches going from the church, around Jefferson Standard at that time, Woolworth's going back. Did you continue participating in any protests when you were a student at UNCG or be active in any way?

MP: No, I didn't. We would do little stuff out here, you know, when we were trying to get funding. But it was never any thoughts of violence or you know cutting up or nothing like that. Your mama done indoctrinated you, "Don't go out there with them white folks and act like you done lost your mind." You know. I let her know, you know, fighting to get some money. She was proud that I was standing up for that but nothing that would catch the TV news or anything like that.

LW: Okay, okay. So I know you talked a little bit about after UNCG, you worked for the Carolina Peacemaker then you worked with Burlington Coat Factory. Anything else you did after that?

MP: Okay, let me see here now. What did I do? Okay, I cleaned offices for a while and then after I couldn't find a job, because when I was here at UNCG, I majored in professional English. I did not get a teacher's certificate. So, I went back, I came back out here and got a teacher's certificate.

LW: Oh, so you came back to UNCG.

MP: Yes, got a teacher's certificate and after I got through, see, got the certificate in '76. Yes, because I finished in '73 and, you know, you get 01:10:00certified before the semester is up. So, during that same semester I got a job in Rockingham, North Carolina.

LW: Okay.

MP: At Rockingham Senior High. No, yes, Rockingham, North Carolina.1

LW: The city in southern North Carolina.

MP: Yes, at Rockingham Senior High School teaching English and history. Now that was kind of a difficult situation because I had, I got married in '75 and so in '76 I went back to school and a teacher at Rockingham Senior High got 01:11:00killed in a car wreck over the weekend. They called out here at UNCG. They needed a black student, you know, a black teacher to replace that black teacher that had gotten killed. So I went down there to teach. I was still young, in my twenties. The only problem, and it really wasn't a problem, but the only problem I had was the boys getting fresh. Like I said, I was a young woman. I was still big but, you know, big girls, you know. You know. Anyways, I had--there was this one boy named Eddie. Eddie looked like a gorilla. He really did. He was big, he was about the color of your pants and he was twenty years old, still in high 01:12:00school. Yes, yes. So which meant he wasn't that much older than me. I wasn't that much older than him. Alright, so, Eddie started hitting on me but he would hit on me in front of the whole class. You know this wasn't one-on-one situation. At that time I was a Blanchard. "Mrs. Blanchard." "Yes Eddie." "I want to put you in the buck." Now he would say this in front of the whole class. You see I'm going to play stupid. "Eddie, what is the buck?" "Mrs. Blanchard, I want to put you in the buck." "Eddie, I don't know what the buck is. What is the buck?" Ain't no--all everybody else standing, looking, you know, wanted to know which one of us was going to break first. But I never would. You know, I--no, no. 01:13:00But anyway, I have often wondered what happened to Eddie. I probably--I feel like Eddie's dead because Eddie was in school. Like I said, was twenty years old, he's older than everybody else and I don't even think he was a senior. Anyways, I taught English and history and finished out that school year but it was just an interim contract. So I came on back to Greensboro. I took the postal exam. My husband took the postal exam. We both took it at the same time. I got called, he didn't. Okay, he was already working he worked for the prison, for the McLeansville [North Carolina] prison. He worked for the state. Anyway, I passed the training, got hired at the Post Office in December of '77. Okay, I worked for the Post Office thirty-two years, six months, twenty-eight days and the only reason I can quote that is because that's what it said on my paperwork. It wasn't really that long but I had enough sick leave to add onto my time in 01:14:00service. I had a very fruitful career. I served in a lot of details. I got promoted once. I was promoted to, from craft into management. And that's all I wanted. When I say all I wanted, I saw what it was taking to be elevated higher and I was not willing to do that. I had a family. I had a child, one child. I only had one child. And I was not going to give the Post Office more than eight hours a day. That's it, now during Christmas, yes. You know you're going to do more than eight hours, that's fine, but, no. Staying there ten, eleven, twelve hours a day, and they're only paying you for eight. No. I do my volunteer work for the church, not for the Post Office.

LW: Alright, well Ms. Pennix, you know, this is recorded and we hope that 01:15:00students will be able to use this information to understand what it was like to be a student here and get some context of the time period. And so is there anything that you would really want people to know or have as a take away about UNCG?

MP: I am proud to say that I am an alumna of UNCG. Like I said earlier, UNCG put me through my paces. UNCG prepared me for life and I'm very grateful for that. If you're at UNCG, you just need to know they will call you and want you to give them some money. You know, now the people that work for Donald Trump or whatever, these big Fortune 500 companies, you know they have a plan whereby 01:16:00your company can give a matching gift, and that's a good thing. You know because the way the economy is now, they way states are, they don't have the money to give these universities like they used to. They have to depend on private enterprise. They have to depend on our donations. But be ye all so ready because they're coming after you. They're coming after you. Now I worked on campus three years, yes, I didn't work my freshman year. Once I moved into Cone Hall, I was a receptionist there the rest of my student career. And yes, that money comes in handy. Somebody's got to do it, yes. You know, you need to try to formulate a 01:17:00plan for your life. You know, we got GPS [global position system] now, you know, they didn't have GPS when I was coming along. You knew where you were going or you got lost. And as somebody who got lost yesterday because I don't have a GPS. You need to GPS your life. You know, and if you start off working and you're doing something you really don't want to do, you don't like it, change it. You've got a chance to change it while you're in your twenties. Now there are some people who will change in their thirties and some who will change in their forties. But, the sooner you change. Who was it who said, "If you do something you enjoy you will never work a day in your life."

LW: I know that quote. I don't remember who said it. But I've heard that quote.

MP: Yes, yes, yes, and that's the truth. Now I worked thirty-two years, six months, and twenty-eight days in the Postal Service. It wasn't a job that I enjoyed. I did not mind doing it because every two weeks I was compensated 01:18:00handsomely. Postal Service money now is not handsome. I'm doing okay on my pension, yes. But, I know a man who had a brother and his brother, younger brother, much younger brother started off right out of college making like $65,000 plus. Now I can't remember what area Carlton was in but $65,000 plus, that's a good salary, especially straight out of college. Don't sign up for those credit cards. Don't make bills. That gives you an option. When you got 01:19:00bills to pay, you don't have time to find yourself. You know, I hear about kids that graduate from college and then they go to Europe to find themselves. How did you get lost over there in Europe? How you gonna find yourself in Europe? But you're not going to find yourself in Europe if you owe Visa fifty dollars a month, MasterCard seventy-five dollars a month, JC Penny, you got a car payment. Find yourself before you start making bills. That's the one--I went to a cook out yesterday for a girl that just finished high school and they wanted you to write down a saying for her. And what I told her always listen to people who are older than you and people that you respect. I said they know where they land mines are 01:20:00and they don't want you to step on one and blow yourself to smithereens. So that's--somewhere in there's some good saying that I said.

LW: Well I know I take all of that to heart and I definitely understand what you mean. So, thank you for sharing. Well, I don't have any more formal questions if there is anything else you would like to add to the interview.

MP: No, I want to thank you for allowing me to reminisce, to walk down memory lane.

LW: [Laughter] It was my pleasure.

MP: And I'm going to call Evelyn this afternoon and ask her what was Fall Charlies all about because they did, they had it here. It was Fall Charlies and--.

LW: Spring Charlies.

MP: Spring Charlies. Well see, Evelyn, Evelyn, bless her heart. She's had several heart attacks--.

LW: You want me to turn the recording off?

MP: Yes.

LW: Okay, turning the recording off.