00:00:00LW: My name is Lisa Withers and today is Tuesday, June 30, 2015. I am in the
home of Mrs. [Dr.] Zelphia Grissett, Class of 1973, to conduct an oral history
interview for the UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro]
Institutional Memory Collection's African American Institutional Memory Project.
Thank you Mrs. Grissett for participating in this project and for sharing with
me your experiences today. I'd like to start the interview by asking about your
childhood. If you could please share when and where you were born?
ZG: Alright, I was born in a little place called Wampee, South Carolina, which
is actually in the Little River section of North Myrtle Beach, South Carolina.
That's where I was born but I grew up--I was born there because my mother was
visiting her father at the time, my papa, Johnny. So, but I actually grew up in
00:01:00Brunswick County [North Carolina], in a little community called Longwood, North
Carolina. And, I went to school at the elementary school there, which was
Longwood Elementary [School] from grades one through eight and then from there I
went to Shallotte High School for my ninth grade year and that was the first
year of integration by choice in North Carolina. So, I was among the few
students that helped to integrate what was the all-white Shallotte High School.
At that time, parents had to--if they wanted bus transportation, they had to
either take their children to the route if they didn't live on the route. So, my
mother had to take me roughly two miles to meet the bus. About half-way through
the year, she started working, for the first time, a public job which meant
00:02:00though she could take me to the bus stop in the morning, I had to walk from the
bus stop home in the evening, which was about two miles. So, consequently, they
thought it wasn't safe. So, after that freshman year, I went back to Union High
School, which was the all-black high school in our part of the county at that
time, and so, I did my sophomore through senior year at Union High School and
graduated valedictorian of that class. And so, it was a--through the
encouragement of my counselor that I--that one of the schools that I applied to
was UNC Greensboro, and so that's how I ended up there. I applied to Chapel
Hill, UNC Chapel Hill [The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel
Hill, North Carolina]. I applied to NCCU [North Carolina Central University,
Durham, North Carolina], and to UNC Greensboro. And so, I did not get accepted
at Chapel Hill. I did get accepted at NCCU and UNC Greensboro. And so when I
00:03:00talked to my counselor about how to make the choice, she said to me--well, my
parents were poor. They didn't have any money so I knew I had to either get some
kind of scholarship or student loans in order to go to college because really
college wasn't a--wasn't even on my horizons as a possibility until my junior
year. I got a chance to go to Governor's School and then for--then I said, "Well
yes, college is possible for me," because I would have been the first person in
my family to go to college, in my immediate family to go to college. So--but in
any case, my counselor said to me, she said, "If you--either school would be a
great school for you. But if you, if you want a financial aid package, at NCCU,
you are going to be competing with children who have families of five, six, or
more in the family. So they are going to out qualify you because, at that time,
00:04:00we just had the three children in my family. At UNCG, I had a better chance of
getting a financial aid package." And I think she had an ulterior motive too
because she had--she had been systematically sort of pushing the top students
from Union to the white universities in the university system. So I think part
of her motive was to get me to choose UNCG because she wanted me there. She
thought I would be able to excel there so. So, I chose UNCG and I'm glad I did.
LW: Yes, so you just mentioned that, you know, with the ulterior motive,
do--have any idea why she might be pushing all the top students to go white universities?
ZG: Well, I think it wasn't necessarily all the white-- top students. But,
there was--there was I sense that I witnessed from the eighth grade on, a move
in the county to test Brown [vs. the Board of Education of Topeka, Kansas,
1954]. That's why I was a part of that integrating Shallotte High School and
00:05:00this--my counselor was also a teacher at my elementary school in the community
where I lived. So there was a concerted effort to say, "If this is our right,
then we are going to, we are going to claim it." And so, she was encouraging
those who wanted to--I don't think it was necessarily a forced thing but those
that they thought would excel in those environments, that would help push the
doors open, I think there were some of us that were pushing in that direction. I
was one of those people.
LW: Okay, I was going to ask as a follow up question, so you attended both high
schools. Is it Shallotte?
ZG: Shallotte High School.
LW: Shallotte and also Union. Could you speak to a little bit, to maybe--were
there differences between the two that you witnessed or how would you compare
those two?
ZG: The difference to--well, at Shallotte, of course, there was hostility
00:06:00because it was the first time that Shallotte had been integrated but I did well
there. I--there were teachers that welcomed me. I was lucky enough to have
teachers, most of them, who welcomed me, who challenged you positively to excel,
and I remember a home ec [home economics] teacher said to my mother that I
didn't appear--I wasn't afraid but I was very good as masking, masking my actual
emotions. I was afraid but I faked it to until, you know, I faked it and I was
tall, you know, so I-- I guess I could pull it off. I did pull it off. I did
pull it off. But for the most part they were welcoming and we had, you know, the
materials were new. At Union, all the teachers were inviting and they pushed you
00:07:00but we had secondary materials. You know, we had materials that had been used by
the white students. I mean, you could, you could see the names had been written
in there and passed on. You had more modern materials, up to date materials, at
the, at the white school and better facilities. Yes, those were the differences
that I saw. But, the, the push academically, I think was more for me at the
black school than at the white school, you know, the fact that I could hold my
own meant that no one, I don't think anyone put the, deliberately put any
barriers in my way, but I don't think anybody necessarily helped me either, so, but--.
LW: So, I was going to ask, you mentioned that the integration for high school
00:08:00was by choice.
ZG: Yes.
LW: So what was that decision to go to Shallotte High School for your freshman year?
ZG: Well, it was the decision made by my parents.
LW: Okay.
ZG: I remembered there being a meeting at the church. The church was right
beside our elementary school and it was a meeting to decide, you know, what
students or a strategy, I guess, for getting some students into the schools that
first year of choice and they wanted to have students go who were strong
academically and who were even tempered, you know, and maybe able to handle, you
know, what may come at them as far as stress or racial slurs and maybe even some
attempts at violence, you know, so. I think they picked us very carefully. My
parents volunteered me, you know, to be a part of that. I had, I had another
sister who was a year or so behind me, but she did not go that first year. But I
00:09:00did so, but it was like a strategy, a united effort in the community to, to test
Brown, you know.
LW: Okay.
ZG: And my, my father, my parents were very civic-minded and they were about
progressive change for blacks in our community.
LW: To test Brown. So, when you were in high school, this is Brown v. Board,
1954, had just passed.
ZG: When I was in high school--I was in high school in the sixties.
LW: Oh, okay.
ZG: It's just that had not gotten--North Carolina was slow to--.
LW: With the "All deliberate speed clause."
ZG: Right, yes, yes.
LW: So that's what they were trying to--okay, okay.
ZG: Yes, the all but deliberate speed didn't come until 1965.
LW: [Chuckles] Until much later.
ZG: Yes.
LW: Okay, I was just trying to get my time period right.
00:10:00
ZG: Yes, they were doing it in the slow lane.
LW: [Chuckles] Okay, and so.
Mr. Grissett: Zelphia.
ZG: We're on tape.
Mr. Grissett: Don't forget to tell her about the way the students treated you
all either. Spit balls and all.
ZG: Oh me. I had spitballs thrown at me down in study hall but, you know, that
was pretty typical.
LW: In high school?
ZG: In high school, my first year at Shallotte.
LW: They threw, they threw spitballs?
ZG: Yes, we had, we had study halls back then and you, we, I always sat down in
the very front. It was in the auditorium in front of the stage and white guys
would sit in the back and throw spitballs down on your head. That's probably the
most--I had one call me the nigger girlfriend. That's probably the worst that
happened to me.
LW: Whew, wow. I'm sorry, I'm just thinking about spitballs. You had the spit
00:11:00all on you.
ZG: Yes, yes, yes. Well, you know [chuckle]
LW: Okay, and so you mentioned that your attendance at Governor's School was
what helped make the idea of college possible.
ZG: Yes.
LW: I know, when I was coming through high school, we still had Governor's
School. I was wondering could you share your experience and maybe what was about
it that helped you make the decision that you wanted to pursue going to college
after high school.
ZG: Well, I never thought that I was going to school beyond high school, you
know, because my parents were poor. And I was always a good student because
that's what I was good at. I'm good at being a student. I loved school,
everything about school. And, they expected me to excel and I did excel. But,
when I got to go to Governor's School, that--and I went. I studied French in
Governor's School because I had teacher and I kind of got excited about the
language and I had a pretty good vocabulary. And that was challenging, you know,
00:12:00forced you to expand. I don't know that I did as well as I could've done but I
know that I enjoyed the experience and it opened my eyes to the possibility as
far as what might be college opportunities and I had these visions of becoming
an interpreter at the UN [United Nations]. So this whole horizon kind of opened,
you know. But then I got back to Union and my teacher left. She moved to D.C.
[Washington, District of Columbia] to teach and, you know, we didn't have--our
teachers were in and out. We didn't have stability in our teaching faculty so
when I went to UNCG I had, I thought about social work as a possible major, you
00:13:00know. But then, after I took one course, a sociology course that dealt with
child abuse and I got to see pictures of where children had been abused and I
thought to myself, "How?" I don't know that I have the emotional, what it took
emotionally to deal with that kind of depravity day in and day out as a part of
my work, you know. So I--and then the professor was--he was the type that you
would tolerate me, you were tolerated. But he didn't particularly, he wasn't
particularly inviting as far as a person of color was concerned. That was pretty
obvious. And then I took a history course under Dr. [Loren] Schweninger.
00:14:00
LW: Oh yes, Loren Schweninger.
ZG: Yes. And wow, that was just like, hey. I was impressed that he studied
under John Hope Franklin and so [chuckle] I just, I took everything I could. I
told--I said well--I'm going to major in history. He kind of opened that up for
me. I got excited, I got hooked, and then my dad said to me, he said, "Well,
what are you going to do with a major in history Zelphia?" I said, "I don't know
daddy." "Well, have you thought about teaching?" I said, "Daddy, I don't want
teach. I don't want to teach." He said, "Well, why don't you go ahead and get
your teaching certificate just in case. Would it take much to get it?" And
actually it didn't. You know I had to add a few more courses, a couple of ed
[education] courses and so I got my teaching certification along with my degree
in history, BA [Bachelors of Arts] in history. I ended up teaching and that has
been--that was my career.
LW: So you were a social studies teacher?
ZG: I was a social studies teacher at the high school for a number of years and
00:15:00then I went into administration. And I became a assistant principal and
principal at Union, the Union Elementary School and also Shallotte Middle
School. Shallotte Middle School was the former Shallotte High School so that was
significant for me in that I was able to help integrate that original school
site and I became principal before I retired. I also worked in the district
office as Director of Personnel, of Human Resources and Personnel. I worked
primarily with the novice teachers and then when I retied I was Assistant Superintendent.
LW: Assistant Superintendent.
ZG: Yes, Yes.
LW: And this was Brusnwick County?
00:16:00
ZG: Brunswick County Schools. Yes.
LW: Okay.
ZG: And after I retired here, I went in--I went across the line to South
Carolina [chuckles] and I was an Assistant Principal for three years and then I
worked with teacher evaluation for three years over there, retired July 2014.
LW: Well, congratulations on retiring.
ZG: Well thank you, thank you.
LW: Okay, wow that was a lot.
ZG: Oh.
LW: But it's good stuff. I'm trying--I'm trying not to repeat too much but also
to have enough clarification for the transcript.
ZG: Okay.
LW: And so you mentioned, you talked about you had that French teacher.
ZG: Yes.
LW: And so was that probably one of your favorite subjects because--.
ZG: It was.
LW: Okay.
ZG: I thought I had a facility for language.
LW: Okay.
ZG: I don't know if I did at the time, but I thought I did.
LW: [Laugher].
ZG: But I kind of lost all that vocabulary but it was just something new and novel.
LW: Okay.
ZG: So I kind of, you know, took to it, you know.
LW: [Chuckles].
ZG: But, she left, she went to D.C.
LW: Okay.
ZG: To teach and so we didn't get another person to teach French. And then they
eventually put Spanish--they implemented Spanish but, so I kind of lost, I lost
00:17:00my vocabulary. And then the fact, it might was because I had French a couple of
years in high school and got to UNCG, I couldn't start out in the first class
they put me in the second class. And I struggled to get, to get those credits,
but I did okay [chuckles]. I had a "C" one semester, a "B" the next. So I made
it, you know. But--.
LW: Okay.
ZG: Because see you went into that class, there was no English. She was
speaking in French from the beginning to the end, so. But I made it.
LW: Yes ma'am and so I thought it was interesting you mentioned how there
seemed to be a lot of teacher turn over?
ZG: At my high school.
LW: Yes, at Union High School. Was there a reason for that or do you know why
that may have happened?
ZG: Well, you're, you're in Brunswick County, which is, you know, it's like a
poor county. And, even though there were beaches, that wasn't necessarily an
00:18:00attraction for someone coming to live here. So, they had trouble finding someone
to teach like math. Like my senior year, our math teacher didn't arrive until
maybe about two or three months into the school year. In fact my husband was a
substitute teacher in my math class [chuckles] my senior year so consequently
I--when I went to UNCG, math was my weakness. And, luckily one of the girls in
my circle of friends was a math major. So, she would tutor me in math then I
would read over her papers because she wasn't, she wasn't too good at writing
her papers, English papers. So, I would look at her English papers and she
00:19:00coached me in math and so one semester we made a "C" and one semester we made a
"B" [laughter]. But we got through. And, I was thinking, I know now there are
all kinds of tutorial programs on campus. My son went through and my daughter so
I know that those things existed. If they existed then, I wasn't aware of them.
I wasn't able to access it. So, having friends who supported me, you know, and I
could support them, that was important to me making it through the areas of my
academic life I didn't feel I had the exposure and the experience I needed to be
successful but we stuck together. And of our group that graduated, you know, we
00:20:00were among the few that graduated, that were in our dorm our freshman year.
LW: Yes, I'll follow up, well actually follow up now. So, you mean not everyone
who came--.
ZG: Well, there were six of us in our dorm. Of course there was just a
sprinkling of black folks at UNCG back in the 1970s, '69-'73 timeframe. In our
dorm, we were in Hinshaw [Residence] Hall. There were only six of us in that
dorm. Six blacks and we called ourselves The Super Six [laughter].
LW: I love that.
ZG: The Super Six. Of that, of that group, three of us actually ended up--I'm
going to take that back. I think three of us ended up finishing. Two of us on
00:21:00time, maybe one later. So, out of that, that group of six, half of us finished.
Now, I've lost track with those girls that didn't finish with us. I don't know
if they later went back and finished or not. But I think finished on time,
really just two of us. I know, another girl, my former roommate, I think she
finished later. But, so, but we had a great time together that first year.
LW: Yes, I was going to ask if you knew--. I have heard that there were
different variants with each class as far as the number of students who did
complete the coursework in four years and so I didn't know from your perspective
was there a factor of what may be determined if a student did or did not?
ZG: Well, I don't know. I know for--I know at least one got married. I know
00:22:00that one of the girls was from Asheville [North Carolina] and I'm thinking she
might have transferred to a university closer to home, I think one dropped out
because of financial reasons. She wasn't able to I guess keep arrangements for
finances for--didn't, maybe wasn't willing do student loans as I did. But
actually my closet friend and I, the two of us that graduated on time, we
actually graduated a semester early. And that is because we went to summer
school. I know after freshman year when I came home and my mama said to me, she
said, "Now I have to work in tobacco. She said, now you come from Greensboro,
the only job you can find here is working in tobacco." She said, "Now, if you
can find you a job on campus or you can find some work in Greensboro, your best
bet is to stay on campus and go to summer school." So, that's what I did. I
00:23:00stayed on campus and got a job working with the first and second summer that I
was there working with the Upward Bound program and so, my girlfriend got a job,
somewhere in the city, so we, we finished in December and we came back and
marched with the class in May of '73. So we just doubled up and got up out of
there, because see, you know freshman year was the year you made all your
contacts. You know, you party hardy. You know, they guys from A&T [North
Carolina Agricultural & Technical State University, Greensboro, North Carolina]
would come and check out the freshman girls. And, if you're going to get the
hookup, you got it then. But this was the test. You knew that you weren't the
one if you didn't get invited to A&T's homecoming or to the big events on
campus. So, after freshman, year, I didn't have a hook up, my girlfriend didn't
have a hookup, so we said, 'We're going to get on our coursework and get the
hell up out of here" [laughter]. So that's what we did.
LW: So when you said you weren't the one as far was--to be the date.
00:24:00
ZG: The girl.
LW: The girl. Okay.
ZG: The girl, the main squeeze.
LW: The main squeeze, okay. Just wanted to make sure I understood.
ZG: Yes, if you didn't get invited to homecoming or events on A&T's campus, you
were not the main squeeze. And I'll tell you something else too. If you were, at
that time, if you were a student at UNCG, you didn't ever, you did not advertise
in Greensboro proper that you went to UNCG because it was a, it was a negative.
You, we would say, "Hey, we're from the city." Oh no, you did not say that
00:25:00because if you said you were from UNCG, it's like "Ohhh," because it was, the
impression was that you were hawty-tawty, wanna-be's over on the white campus.
That was the image that blacks who attended UNCG had at that time. They were
light-skinned and they were, you know, bourgeoisie, whatever. So, you know, you
didn't dare say you went to UNCG. No, you don't own up to it.
LW: So, is that in conversation with students from A&T or Bennett [College,
Greensboro, North Carolina] or anyone?
ZG: That was pretty much anyone black that we, you know, came in contact with.
LW: Okay.
ZG: That was kind of the stereotype.
LW: Okay.
ZG: That we were under.
LW: Oh, that's interesting. This is the first time I've heard about that this
is the image, you know, that perceived notion.
ZG: Yes.
LW: Because when I was going to ask, I've heard of the parties, the house parties.
ZG: Yes,
LW: Going to house parties with A&T students. I didn't know if you experienced
00:26:00that or--.
ZG: One time there was a--I found her picture but I couldn't find her name in
the--but Francis Jones. I think she was a junior, a sophomore or junior, when we
were freshmen. Now she was the founder of the Neo-Black Society. And so,
she--they pretty much kind of put a arms of protection around us that freshman
year so that the first house party we went to, she took us. She took my little
group and she cautioned us, you know. Don't drink anything, you know, because
you never know what they put in the punch and all that stuff. And so we went to
this party and it was, you know, it was jamming and whatever. And then she
smelled something. She smelled some marijuana. So she herded us out there so
quick, you know. So she kind of took care of us. And that kind of was, that kind
of helped us kind of know that we needed to be circumspecting where we went and
who we went with, you know. So, we always kind of went in groups, I guess, in
00:27:00herds [laughter].
LW: Safety in numbers.
ZG: Safety in numbers, yes. So, but, that first year was the party year for us,
because I was so sheltered at home and so to leave home, which was my first time
leaving home, to go to college? Oh, and to be free? Make my own decisions. I
went absolutely crazy. I just had a good time and for the first time in my life,
I flunked a course. I flunked biology in my freshman year, first semester, and,
I flunked it because in high school, I could pretty much take notes, pay
attention in class, and whiz the test. But I found at UNCG, you had to read the
00:28:00textbook [laughter], take notes, and pay attention in class, you know. I was
missing a very important study skill. But I felt so bad about it and--reason why
I felt bad about it, is that not only had I failed, but I told my mother, I
said, "I'm going to fail biology, I just know I am because I haven't been able
to, you know, do well on a test." And she said, "I know how hard it is when
you're with all those white folks. So you just do the best you can." And I felt
so bad. I said, "Here my mama thinks I have failed because I'm in this alien
environment, oppressive environment, and the truth is I have been partying my
ass off" [laughter]. So, I felt so bad. So, I said, whew. So I had to take
biology over. It was a requirement. And, what saved me, and it's really bad to
00:29:00say, that year, there were all these demonstrations on campus. The Kent State
[University, Kent, Ohio] thing had happened. All the demonstrations on campus
and there were so many students that were out of class that the university did a
pass/fail grading system that second semester and with my enhanced study skills,
and pass/fail, I got my biology credit. And that's what I always associate with
Kent State. I know it's perverse, but I always associate with Kent State with an
opportunity to pass biology at UNCG. And I did because it was a hard course. It
was a course that you had majors and non-majors in the same class and it was
horrible. I could do okay with the labs but just, you know, it was just over my
head. So it was just--anyway, I passed. And later, I confessed to my mother
00:30:00[laughter], later in life.
LW: I'm curious, what did she say?
ZG: Oh me, she just laughed. You know, she just laughed. My mother was she was
the sweetest thing. She wanted us to excel. She didn't have a chance to have the
education opportunities that we had, so she was happy--I was successful by then
so I could tell her. You know, she didn't take it too hard, too badly, but--.
LW: So, I just wanted to back up a little bit.
ZG: Okay.
LW: I know that you had mentioned, you know, with the high school integration
it was your parents who decided with that.
ZG: Yes.
LW: So, I guess know that they were very civic-minded, what was kind of their
reaction when you decided when you announced that you were going to UNCG for college?
ZG: They were okay with it.
LW: They were okay with it.
ZG: Just the fact that I was going and the fact that I had a financial package
00:31:00to go, you know because I did all my applications myself. I applied for student
loans so I got a package. And pretty much what they did, they gave me free reign
to get ready to go, you know. We patched up, sewed up my little clothes.
Because, at the time, all my clothes were like handmade clothes and we got
everything ready. And the--they took me to Greensboro and dropped me off
freshman year. And, after that, when I went back and forth all that time, I had
to take the bus, the Greyhound bus. So it's the Greyhound bus, me, and my
footlockers. And they came and picked me up when I graduated. But, after that
freshman year fiasco, I reigned myself in and I did, I made, I did what I was
supposed to do. Yes.
LW: I was going--in talking about, you know, studies and classes, you mentioned
00:32:00Dr. Schweninger.
ZG: Yes.
LW: Yes, and so what, he--I don't want--I--one of my classmates was doing
research about, you know, he was one of the individuals within the university's
history, you know, for his momentous role because, you know, the Neo-Black
Society was calling for more black professors and he happened to be hired and so
I was curious if you could speak to what was it like to be in his classroom.
What was it like to interact with him?
ZG: He just, he just made everything come alive for me, you know. Like I told
you, you know, when I heard he studied under John Hope Franklin, I said, "He
gotta know his stuff." You know, and so, I don't know. It's just, I just caught
on fire. And he, I guess he saw that in me and he encouraged me to do graduate
study, you know, when I was about ready to graduate, he tried to encourage me to
00:33:00do further study but I thought that I needed to come out and go to work, you
know, rather than go forward but I was--he was very encouraging. He, like I
said, he tried to push me. He took the time to talk to me, you know, about doing
graduate study. And then, but I came home in December and in a few months later
I met my husband and so, my parents were concerned that I wasn't going to go and
get my master's as I said I wanted to do. And so my husband told them he would
ensure that I fulfilled my dream of getting my degree, so he never stood in the
way of me getting my master's. He helped me out. So, I ended up getting a
master's in secondary social studies and I got a second master's in education
administration and I got my doctorate in education. So, I kept going until the
limit. So I love being a student.
LW: [Chuckles] Alright, and so you already started talking a little bit about
your campus experience. So, do you remember what it was like the first time you
00:34:00stepped on UNCG's campus that first day?
ZG: I don't know if I remember the first day because it's always that struggle
of getting--there were long lines to get registered, I remember that, and to get
your classes. That's before things were automated like they are now. So you
stand in line, you know, in long lines and get your classes and then to go get
your books, you know, and I don't remember. I think Francis and some of the
folks in the Neo-Black Society, I think they still played that role of looking
out for us to making sure that we were settling in. I don't know if they were
doing that in partnership with the university or if that was just an issue that
was separate and unique to them, with their focus on us, I don't know. But, but,
00:35:00you know, I finally got my classes and once that was clear it was just, and my
books, and once that was done, it was a matter of me getting the class. And I'm
a morning person so, you know, I would get the early schedule, you know, so I
could go ahead and get that out of the way and have the afternoon to relax and
study when the dorm was quiet. But, I was, I was thinking about, you know, how I
might, what that experience was like for me and I think I don't know if I felt
invited to the university. I don't feel that there were any barriers put in my
place so it's like I was accommodated. I was tolerated but I didn't feel that I
was invited. So, I would react to that I wasn't involved either. I was not
involved. I had a--my roommate who had became my roommate after freshman year,
Dot Stokes [Dorothy Stokes, Class of 1973] was involved and I saw a picture of
00:36:00her. She got involved with Elliott Hall [Elliott University Center], Elliott
Council. Elliott Center Council and so she would kind of keep us informed with
what was happening in the Elliott Center. You know if there were concerts
because she was kind of involved in that. I think that's because maybe she knew
some of the folks from her high school in Winston [Winston-Salem, North
Carolina] Reynolds High [Richard J. Reynolds High School, Winston-Salem, North
Carolina] that might have gotten her involved. But I wasn't involved. When it
came down to the Neo-Black Society, I did attend some of the meetings. Some of
their meetings and affairs, and I attempted to help with other blacks who were
coming in after, after me. But then there was a hierarchy within that too, so,
00:37:00if you were someone like me, I was basically, I was basically the average
introvert so I did not, I did not get myself involved. My entire focus was on
getting my academics done, my study time done. Earning my degree and moving on.
So, that was my focus there.
LW: So, not a lot of extracurriculars?
ZG: No. Nope, nope.
LW: Nope.
ZG: And I mean, I don't know if even if you call attending a ball game? Now, I
attended some concerts, dances on campus. I remember we had Kool and the Gang
before they were, you know, world famous. They performed for us.
LW: Oh, that's a music group--could you say the name again?
ZG: Kool and the Gang.
LW: Kool and the Game?
ZG: Kool and the Gang.
LW: Oh, Kool and the Gang, okay.
00:38:00
ZG: Yes, Kool and the Gang, performed at a dance I think when we had dances. We
had the Impressions to come once. But that's, that's one regret that I have, you
know, because I should have taken more advantage of the cultural opportunities
that were available and I did not. And I think that's because I didn't want to
do it solo. Because, at that time, UNCW [The University of North Carolina at
Wilmington], UNC Greensboro was a Monday through Friday campus, which meant that
folks were there during the week, Monday through Friday, for classes but on the
weekend, it was dead. It was--the only people on campus on the weekends were
folks like me who did not have a car and could not go home. Now I would go home
with my girlfriends sometime but I hate to impose on them every weekend. Go home
and eat good, you know. But they were really good to us and feed us but, but
that was a quiet time for me to get my studies done. And just to, you know, just
00:39:00to chill. And they--they always served a good breakfast on Saturday mornings in
the cafeteria, served real eggs [laughter]. So, I looked forward that because I
had simple tastes back then, didn't take much to make me happy. But--.
LW: Well, you kind of already started answering one of my questions I had. What
was the dining hall like?
ZG: The food was institutional but there was a plenty of it [laughter] and you
could, you know. If you got up and went during service hours, you know, you
could eat. I probably ate too many potatoes and drank too many cokes. I was
addicted to cokes and on the weekends, you got real eggs instead of powdered
eggs. That's the thing I remember. I also remember that I injured this guy that
I thought was cute. I wanted to talk to in the cafeteria one morning. I
developed an infection in my eye and gone to the infirmary and they bandaged my
00:40:00eye up and so my depth perception was off. So I had gotten these grits and
something else on my tray and I went to sit at this table where this cute guy
was and I, I thought I was putting my tray down gently but it kind of bounced a
couple of inches and it splashed hot grits on him. So, hey, my chances with him
were gone [laughter], the crazy girl with the one eye and the hot grits. So,
but, it was usually a social time. People were in and out, you know. It was,
like I said, you know, it was institutional food but there was a plenty of it.
And I, I had the full meal plan the first year but later I kind of switched it.
You had some--I liked that part too. You had some flexibility with your meal
planning because I didn't eat three meals a day. So I would--went to two meals a
day and kind of save me some on my expenses. But the--I loved the convenience
because coming from a very poor environment, and this might seem strange but, we
didn't get running water and an indoor bathroom until I was sixteen years old.
00:41:00
LW: You mean at home.
ZG: At home.
LW: Oh.
ZG: And so, when I went away from school and I could take a shower as many
times as I wanted during the day. When I walked to class and sweat, take a
shower, you know. Just to have that convenience was just wonderful. And I liked
the way the Elliott Center was set up. They had listening rooms, I don't know if
they still do or not. They had listening rooms that you could reserve and have
piped in the music of your choice. So, whenever the dorm got overbearing for me,
too noisy, I would go to Elliott Center, pick out my music, have it piped in,
and I would stretch out in the middle of the floor and let the music just flow
over me. It was wonderful. And the campus was so beautiful. I found it peaceful
00:42:00and relaxing so, no one bothered me. I didn't bother anybody. So, I just
enjoyed--. When I wasn't with my friends, I enjoyed the beauty of the campus. I
enjoyed the conveniences that were there for the students.
LW: So--wow that--I kind of got wrapped up and lost in that description [laughter].
ZG: It's a beautiful campus.
LW: It is, and it still is, although they have made a lot of changes.
ZG: Yes.
LW: It's still a beautiful campus. So, you mentioned that in your first year,
you lived in Hinshaw.
ZG: Yes.
LW: Did you stay in Hinshaw or did you move to a different dorm?
ZG: I went to a different dorm. I'm trying to think. I tried to stick with the
00:43:00older dorms because they felt more homey.
LW: Okay.
ZG: Because there was, you know they had the high rises.
LW: Yes.
ZG: But I just like the feel of the older dorms and space. I don't know why,
but, Weil-Winfield [Residence Hall]. I don't know if it's still on campus, open
or not. It's like across from the Quad. I was there the rest of the time I
believe and I might have gone to one of the more modern dorms during the summer
time. But I basically stayed, I think in Hinshaw and Weil-Winfield were the
dorms that I lived in when I was on campus. They were the older, older dorms. I
think Hinshaw became a male's dorm. I don't know what it is now.
LW: I couldn't tell you. I didn't stay on campus [chuckle].
ZG: Yes, yes. I think that was important to be on campus. There were some folks
I knew that commuted but it was important to be on campus because the library,
00:44:00you know, I enjoyed going to the library to study because I really couldn't
study in the dorms except on the weekends. And I had a little niche in the
library that I would go. It was like a on top of a stairwell and there was a
window and a desk and I would go there and I would sleep. I got tired, took a
nap, wake up, go on and study. But I just liked the convenience. I liked, I
liked the feel of academia, the quiet time to study and reflect.
LW: Okay.
ZG: It suited me as a student. I suited me.
LW: [Chuckles]. And so, what do you recall about maybe some of the rules and
regulations of the university. Whether it be in the dorm or, I know with other
alumni, they talked about, you know, they remembered when it changed over from being--.
ZG: Well.
LW: Woman's College [The Woman's College of the University of North Carolina,
Greensboro, North Carolina] you had curfews and things.
ZG: Well we had curfews. And I remember getting locked out one night because we
00:45:00went to that shoe, the Impressions, and so we were just jamming, my girlfriends
and I. So, we were, you know, they invited us to come, to come out with them
after the show. So, we did. We went over to their hotel room so they thought
they were going to get some action, which they did not but we lied saying we
were from A&T. We told them we were from A&T and that we had to get back to the
dorm before curfew. So, we caught a cab, went to A&T's campus. My girlfriend
knew a friend from Winston who was at A&T but their dorms were locked too at
that time of night. So, I remember we ended up taking a cab to the Apple House
downtown [Greensboro] and listening to "Rainy Night in Georgia" on the jukebox
until the dorms opened. So when the dorms opened [chuckle], as it was six
o'clock, we were standing in the door waiting to come in when the dorm opened.
But the word had gone out that we had been partying with The Impressions, so.
The Super Six, so, you know. But they had rules about curfews and they had rules
00:46:00about visiting, guys visiting in the dorm rooms there were certain times. And I
didn't find that restrictive. I thought it was good, you know. I think--couple
of years after I was there, they had these concepts of residential college and I
had a couple of girls from here that went there that were involved with the
residential college experience. But there were no rules that I found oppressive.
I always felt safe on campus. The only time that I put myself in danger is that
jaunt, you know, with The Impressions thing, you know, and staying out and being
in a restaurant with, you know waiting until the dorm would open up. That was
the most, scariest experience I had but--because I knew I needed, I should have
been in the dorm [chuckle] instead of out there hanging out all night long.
First time staying out all night long, you know. Country girl, my mama would
00:47:00have--she would have whipped me with a switch if she knew I was out there at
that time of night. But, we had a dorm mother, I guess, you call her although if
that was really her title or not. But, someone we could go to and it was-- I
felt safe, pretty much. The girls were, you know, it got noisy but they were
respectful. I don't recall there being any incidents, you know, where there was
any kind of trouble. Pretty orderly I liked the fact that, you know, we had
access to the living room portion of the dorm, because we had the guests to come
over. Could have gotten a little crowded sometimes, you know, if somebody showed
up but it was just home, home like. Yes, but I felt safe.
LW: Okay. Another thing I was going to ask. So, when you came in your freshman
year, the university was still finding its way. You know, it just became co-educational.
ZG: Yes.
LW: So, I didn't know if you had any memories or what your perception was being
00:48:00that, you know, with the men you may have encountered or the lack of men on
campus since it was then a co-educational university.
ZG: There were just a few guys that we knew, black guys, and I really didn't,
you know, didn't identify with, or noticed, about the white guys but there were
a few black guys who were friendly but we, we really, really didn't have much
association. You might see them at Neo-Black Society meeting but I think they
were, maybe, a class or so ahead of us so, I really didn't have much interaction
with them. In fact, I ran into a couple of them a couple of years ago at A&T's
00:49:00Homecoming and I think they remembered me. I remembered them but I don't know if
they remembered me. Like I said, you know, I was pretty introverted. So, I
didn't--but, you know, like I said, guys would come on campus freshman year and
usually girls made their, their hookup then.
LW: Yes, you've talked about that.
ZG: Yes, we talked about that. So, hey, I didn't make the cut, so.
LW: [Laughter] Were there any traditions that you remember? Any campus or
school traditions that you remember that happened?
ZG: I don't remember any traditions, like I said, I kind of felt like I was--.
LW: That's true.
ZG: Like, on campus but not a part of campus. And that's the thing I always
told my children, when they went off to school, you know. Take advantage of all
the cultural opportunities that are there on campus, you know. Just don't,
00:50:00don't' paint yourself into a little box because you don't have to anymore. I
think I painted myself into a box because I was in an alien environment and I
did not feel that I was necessarily welcomed but no one bothered me. But I
didn't put myself in the position for anybody to bother me, you know, so, I kind
of found safety in a little world that I created for myself there on campus.
LW: Yes, well another thing I wanted, before I get to the end of my--the end of
the interview questions. I know in the beginning you mentioned Kent State.
ZG: Yes.
LW: And the protest.
ZG: Yes.
LW: Could you describe the protest or where there any on campus? A protest
that happened in Greensboro about the incident?
ZG: The protest, yes, the protest on campus.
LW: Okay. Not many people have mentioned that.
00:51:00
ZG: Yes.
LW: I was going to ask further.
ZG: Yes, there were protests on campus. There were kids giving speeches, you
know, anti-war [Vietnam War] speeches and I was thinking at the time, you know,
apart from the Biology thing, that I didn't feel like I had enough information
to be a part of that, you know. So, I would stop and listen to some of the
speeches that were being made going to and from class but I wasn't a part of the
demonstrations. I didn't understand what was going on. I knew about the war. I
knew that I had lost a church member in the war. In fact, my husband's
classmate, high school classmate, but I didn't feel I knew enough to be an
activist or to be involved in that but it was almost, it's almost like you are
00:52:00watching a TV show. It was like I was watching and observing but I wasn't a part
of. But it was so pervasive on campus at the time, the demonstrations and
students really being side tracked from academics because of that, the
university instituted a pass/fail policy that semester.
LW: It's interesting not many other alumni have mentioned that they happened.
Do you remember where on campus or you just know it was on campus?
ZG: It was on--I remember, now I--there used to be, when I walked down to
Hinshaw, and walked to Hinshaw and walked across and go down between the library
and some building like the, it was an open, I don't know what. Probably, in
00:53:00front of Elliott or--.
LW: Okay.
ZG: McIver that space.
LW: Yes, in front of Foust Park?
ZG: I don't know what they call it.
LW: Okay.
ZG: But it was like crosswalks and there was Elliott and McIver back over here and--.
LW: Okay.
ZG: But it was right in the middle of campus.
LW: Okay.
ZG: At the time. That was the middle of campus.
LW: Okay.
ZG: That was where.
LW: That was where they were taking place, happening.
ZG: Yes.
LW: Okay, do you recall even like observing whether other protests that
happened during your time or was that like the main one that you observed?
ZG: That was the main one I remember observing. I don't ever--I don't recall
hearing about anything else.
LW: Okay.
ZG: That sparked that kind of response from the student body. And I'm assuming
that all those were students. I don't know if there were other people who were
non-students or not on campus. I don't know, but yes, I do recall that.
LW: Okay.
ZG: Yes.
LW: Well you've already shared with us what you did after you graduated UNCG.
Have you been involved with the university since graduation?
ZG: I have not. I've not really attended any of their, the homecoming or any of
00:54:00their events, you know. I always try to contribute a little bit each year
[chuckle] to each university I attended. I think that's important. My little
dollars plus somebody else's dollars makes some bigger dollars. But I have not
been involved. I usually go with my husband to his Homecoming events. He's all
about I'm an adopted Aggie [A&T mascot, laughter]. So, but I have not been--you
know, we were riding through campus and my daughter went, finished there so, you
know, we went to graduation. My son finished and graduation there but as far as
00:55:00me being involved--. Now, there is like an email list serve that kind of goes
around from our class and I know that some of my classmates are actively
involved and that there is some discussion about getting more involved since you
got a brand new chancellor and so, so I've been listening to that. There's a
group that kind of gets together during A&T's Homecoming and socializes and I
hear about that. Now, I haven't actually been a part of that either. So my
husband goes to AggieLand, the car and everything is tied up so I just, I just
chill [chuckle] with my Kindle and I'm cool, you know. So, but, I get the
publications from the university. I know the university continues to grow and
expand. I always felt like I got a quality education at UNCG. I was proud, am
proud to be a UNCG graduate. And, so even though I wasn't involved in the whole
00:56:00campus experience, I got the most important thing, I think, which was my degree
and that sense of pride in being a UNCG graduate.
LW: Yes ma'am. Well, Mrs. Grissett, with your last comment you actually
answered my last two questions.
ZG: [Chuckles].
LW: Because, you know, what you would want to people to know about your time at
UNCG and the impact it made. And so but, I don't have any more formal questions.
Is there anything else you would like to add to the interview?
ZG: I don't know. I encourage others to attend, you know, when I was in the
school system, I would encourage others to consider it. You know, I think it's a
wonderful university. As I told you earlier, I encourage them to, to have that
total experience, you know. To really get the most of it but I'm a very social
00:57:00person so I'm not really interested in the social, the alumni association and
all that stuff. I'm not really all that interested in that but I do appreciate,
I think, this step up in life that my experiences there gave me. And, I will
encourage others to consider UNCG.
LW: [Chuckles].
Mr. Grissett: Why don't you tell her about that [unclear] professor?
ZG: That's not pertinent to my experience [chuckles].
Mr. Grissett: It's pertinent to the UNCG experience.
ZG: My son is also a graduate of UNCG but that was--he was music major and we
had to do the--he was not, he was not graduating on time and so, we had to do,
what we do for a kindergartener. We had to call a meeting with the Dean and say,
you know, we need a plan for this young man to graduate but before we met, the
reason that we chose to meet, the Dean had really spoken to him in really
00:58:00derogatory terms. We found out about. You know, he--I don't think he's no longer
there but he had no idea that my son was a product of educated parents, you
know, or even that I was an alumnus, you know. So, it was a very difficult
meeting but we met with him and we came out with a plan, I said because he will
graduate, and we had plan. He was delayed but he did graduate and for the
longest time, and I still see material now from the music, School of Music with
his image on it, you know, still using his image. But, it was not pleasant but
we got him graduated, got him graduated.
Mr. Grissett: She needs to know what he told him about him not being college material.
00:59:00
ZG: Well, he got his degree.
LW: Well, if you want it on recording [chuckles]. It's okay.
Well, thank you so much Mrs. Grissett. I really appreciate your time today.
ZG: My pleasure.
LW: And, I'm going to stop recording.
ZG: Okay.