Oral history interview with JoAnn M. Clark, 2015

LW: My name is Lisa Withers and today is Thursday, July 16, 2015. I am in the home of Mrs. JoAnn M. Clark, Class of 1972, to conduct an oral history interview for the UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro, Greensboro, North Carolina] African American Institutional Memory Project. Thank you, Mrs. Clark, for participating in this project and for sharing with me a little bit about your experiences today. I'd like to start this interview by asking about your childhood, if you would please share with me when and where you were born.

JC: I was born in Edward, North Carolina, and Edward is located about twenty-three miles southeast of Washington [North Carolina] in 1950. How much detail do you think I need to provide for you?

LW: Oh, however much you would like to share with us. Whatever you are comfortable sharing.

JC: Okay. Grew up there in a home, actually, was born in a home that my father 00:01:00built back in 1950 which still stands today, I'm proud to say, went to school in Aurora, North Carolina. There I went to--from first grade through graduation in 1968. My community growing up was a fairly rural community so my life growing up as a child was as a farmer's daughter--my father was a sharecropper and a lot of my early years were spent working on the farm with him and my grandfather. We probably farmed for the better part of my life there. And then when I got to 00:02:00high school, I was able to work in a company called Texas Gulf Sulfur Company. It came into the area back in the nineteen--early 1960s and provided some opportunity for me to do some work there in the summers. So I had my first summer job when I was junior in high school. And after that, I went away to college.

LW: Okay. Well, if you don't mind me asking some follow up questions.

JC: Sure.

LW: So, with the Texas Gulf Sulfur Company, what the nature of the summer job? What were you able to do?

JC: I got a job as a receptionist and so I was able to work in the main office and just regular receptionist duties but was my so-called white collar job you might say. Other than that I had always worked on the farm.

LW: And so mentioned you went to school in Aurora, North Carolina.

JC: Yes.

LW: Do you remember the name of the school?

JC: The school was S.W. Snowden. And S.W. Snowden at the time was a fully African American, segregated school, but was the school that all of us went to 00:03:00from the beginning of our school years until we graduated. Now that times have changed, S.W. Snowden has become the elementary portion of the schools in Aurora. So, all the children in the area go to the school that I grew up in as an elementary education path and then they move to the Aurora High School for high school.

LW: Okay, okay. So what was it like to go to S.W. Snowden? What was your--how would you describe your school experience?

JC: I think based on the time of my life that is was being a young child growing up, it was a happy time. I think the school was a small microcosm of the life around me at the time. Everybody that I knew went to that school so it was like moving the family from the home place to the school place, and so, very small class. I came out of a graduating class of about fifty people. So it was 00:04:00very small. And all of our teachers were African American so I would say a very--I'd describe it as a very familial time in terms of my education. But the--I guess memory I have of growing up in--at that time was that the school was an extension of family. I never got away with anything at the school. Not that I was really into anything but you always knew when you were growing up that anything that happened at school was going to be shared with your parents so, kind of a family experience I would say.

LW: Okay, okay. So, having growing up, going to Snowden School, what was the factor that led you to your decision to attend--to apply and attend UNCG?

JC: Well that's an interesting story. When I was in high school, I happened to have graduated valedictorian of my class. So, I was one of the top students of 00:05:00course in my class and had taken some advanced courses, advanced meaning that when I was in lower grades they asked me to take courses in higher grades because they saw that I was capable. Having had that experience, my guidance counselor kind of had an eye on me at the time and wanted me to apply to UNCG because at the time they were--there was an opportunity for a small scholarship if I was admitted. 1968 was--I think that was the last year we had segregated schools. The next year the school was going to be desegregated and my experience up to this point had been with all African Americans and I knew that UNCG was not an African American school. I did know about African American universities in Durham and in Greensboro, NCC [North Carolina Central University, Durham, North Carolina] being one and A&T [North Carolina Agricultural & Technical State University, Greensboro, North Carolina] being the other and my hope was to go to 00:06:00one of those schools. So, when my guidance counselor, whose name was Mr. Brown at the time, asked me to fill out the application so that I might be considered for this, this scholarship, partial scholarship at UNCG, I took this application and said I was going to fill it out but never did. And, this was my way of ensuring that I didn't go to UNCG. So, as time went by, he kept asking me if I heard anything from UNCG and I kept saying, "No, I don't know what happened. You know, I just never heard anything." And he said, "Well, I tell you what you do. You give me the application. You fill the application out and give it to me and I will submit it for you this time and make sure it gets to the university." So, my fate was sealed and I didn't have a way to get out of it. So, that's how I ended up at UNCG. My application was accepted. I did get a small scholarship and that's how I wound up at the university.

LW: Okay.

JC: But if I'm honest, I would say that UNCG was not my first choice.

LW: Yes, was there any--I'm trying to think of the best way to ask--any particular reason why, it would not just even on the register?

JC: Fear; absolute, absolute fear.

LW: Okay.

JC: I had never had any association--other than and in my, it's an interesting community experience I had growing up where my home, growing up in the country, everything is rural. So, where my home was and the next home over was a white family. And we knew each other. We didn't necessarily socialize to the extent that you would come to each other's house but, you know, everybody knew everybody. But that was my only association with whites. All of the other business contacts going to you know commercial entities in Washington when we would go shopping and that kind of thing. All of my world was about what I knew 00:08:00from the tv and what I had experienced in those kinds of settings. So I had no real opportunities to get to know or be around whites except to go through the experiences of the times and I was fearful. I was very fearful that going to a white university, I was going to be subject to some of what, historically, was prevalent at the time. And I was afraid that that might happen to me. So, I didn't want to go. I wanted to go to someplace where I felt, again, like I was in a family with my own kind, so. I think it was more fear than anything else.

LW: Okay. So, I know your guidance counselor was hopeful and encouraging you to go. When you made the--when you got the scholarship and decided to go, what was the reaction of your friends and family?

JC: Oh my family was very proud. They were very happy that, you know, I got in. In fact, they--had they known, I think, that I had kept the first application from going to UNCG, they'd have really gotten on me because that was something that my mother and father didn't stand for. But, they were always very proud of me and my father was a big motivator for me. He was always trying to push me to 00:09:00do the best that I could do wherever and it was--it was I think probably a feeling of, I guess pride is the best word, the fact that I had been accepted and I was going and so they were very happy.

LW: Okay. Well can you--oh, I'm sorry. Were you going to say something?

JC: No, no, no.

LW: Okay, just wanted to make sure. So could you describe to me what was it like your first few days on campus or do you remember what were your first days like--the first time you experienced being on UNCG's campus?

JC: Well, my mom and dad had taken me for a summer program that year, the summer before I enrolled at UNCG, to a summer program at Bennett [College, 00:10:00Greensboro, North Carolina]. And they wanted me to at least have a chance to live in the city, see where the university was, they took me over to the university so I could see what it looked like. My brother had gone to A&T so I knew the city of Greensboro but did not know anything about UNCG. So I did go over and look at the university. Thought it was great, looking at least. But still was fearful of about living there. But then, I think, giving me that kind of introduction to the grounds was, you know, it was like looking at through a tv camera. You just kind of say, "Yeah, that's that, but I don't see myself in that." So, when I finally--the night before going to UNCG, I remember praying, just got on my knees and on the bed and started praying and hoping that everything would be okay. So when I went the next day, I was afraid but I went in--I was--the first dormitory that I was in was Cotten [Residence] Hall, and I had been assigned to a room with two girls who were friends. They were friends 00:11:00that lived in Mebane [North Carolina] or Burlington [North Carolina], somewhere in that area. And I was the third person in the room. And, I didn't know how that was going to work, but they at least did reach out to me ahead of time. I remember getting a letter from them at home the summer before I attended and they were talking about the colors they were going to be using in the room and that kind of thing for decorative purposes. So, it was good that they at least acknowledged that I was--and I don't know whether they knew who I was or that I was African American or not. But I actually went in and met them. They actually turned out to be nice girls and it was, turned out to be okay. But I have to say that I tread very lightly the first few days that I was there, as I recall. I don't have vivid remembrance of what my first few days were like but I just know 00:12:00that as I think back on the time, it turned out better than I anticipated.

LW: Okay. So how would you describe the transition academically for you coming, you know, from S.W. Snowden to UNCG? What was that experience like?

JC: That's a really, really good question. S.W. Snowden for me, because, as I said before, it was a very small school. We had good teachers, we had very dedicated teachers but the times being what they were, we did not have probably the best of facilities or, you know, books, equipment, whatever. But they did the best that they could. And, I have to say that I did not apply myself very much when I was in S.W. Snowden. As I said, I wound up valedictorian but it wasn't through any grand effort on my part. So the transition to UNCG was a shocker for me because it was the first time that I had been placed in and next 00:13:00to people of, you know, great aptitude and capability. And I had to sort of prove myself. So, just the whole idea of how to study, how to, I think, you know, apportion my time in a way that was going to be productive--that was a learning experience for me because that was something I never had to do. I was just able to kind of, I wouldn't say skate by in school. I got a solid education with what was provided for me at S.W. Snowden. But clearly here I was up against a different level of competition and I had to develop some skills, I think, to get me through that period. So, it was a shock.

LW: Okay.

JC: But I did okay. I did okay. I held my own. I think the first "C" I ever received I got at UNCG. That was something I had never had before so that was a wakeup call. But it was enough of a motivator for me to know that this was a new game and I had to really buckle down and--because I was still at a point where I wanted to do to well myself. That was something that was intrinsic, I think, 00:14:00mode for me. I just really always wanted to do well. And when I recognized that it was going to take some work on my part, then I just buckled down and started doing that.

LW: So what did you end up choosing as your college major?

JC: Another interesting facet of mine beginning at UNCG. Not having had exposure to a lot of different careers and times being what they were, we just didn't have that many opportunities, certainly not what we have today. And all I knew was teaching and those things that had been, I had been exposed to. So I went to UNCG with the notion that I was going to go into education. And upon getting to the university, I sort of went into a general curriculum, and 00:15:00then--the nice thing that happened for me my first year there was that we met. The black students on campus all met each other. And at the time, we weren't that heavy in numbers but there were about ten girls that got together and kind of formed a friendship and we are friends, even to this day. But, among those girls was one, a friend of mine, who said she was going into this area called speech pathology, which I had never heard of, but I said, "Eh, okay I'll try that." So, I went into an introductory course in that area. It was interesting and I said, "Oh, this sounds like it might work." So, that really is how I decided to get--to major in speech pathology. And I think I made that decision probably at the end of my, maybe end of my freshman, beginning of my sophomore year.

LW: Okay. So as you went through your time at UNCG, are there any professors or instructors that stand out in your mind or that you remember?

JC: Absolutely. Once I made the decision to go into speech pathology, not necessarily during my beginning years but as I was getting toward the end of my 00:16:00degree, and this interview only covers up to 1972 but I also followed that with a graduate degree from UNCG as well. But I mention that because during my later years, closer to graduation, my professor--one of the professors at UNCG, which I thought was really--most impactful to me was Dr. Mariana Newton. She was in the, at the time, she was chair of the Speech Pathology Department there at UNCG, and she sort of took me under wing. I didn't know it at the time but as I looked back on it, she sort of took me under her wing to help me understand and 00:17:00matriculate transitioning from being now a graduate to a professional. Because, first of all, we knew that we had to go to graduate school because a terminal degree for us at the time was a graduate degree. So I had to make sure that I got into graduate school and got my graduate degree and she was very facilitative I think in helping me to get a degree at, or get enrolled at the graduate program at UNCG. She was instrumental in helping me find an assistantship because I needed the money to go through. And in addition to that, she was just a great mentor and helping me understand what it meant to transition from being then a student into the professional world. So, in terms of assistantships and understanding the road to finding a job after I left the university, she has just been very instrumental. So I would say she, even to this day, I guess I point to her as probably the biggest impact on my professional career.

LW: Okay, so were there any other classes that you particularly enjoyed that you remember about, those within or even outside of your major and the general 00:18:00education curriculum?

JC: I think the only class that I remember but not necessarily in a positive way was a class in social work. It was the only class I ever had with an African American instructor. I got, I think I got a "C" or a "D" in that class and I don't know why. I haven't really sorted out for myself even at this late point in my life why I didn't do well in that class. But I just didn't and it has always stuck out to me as kind of a question of why that particular subject matter or class or something about the context just did not click. And it was one the--one of my poorest performances at UNCG. I have no explanation for it and I don't even know why I'm still thinking about it. But that is the one class I remember. The other classes were, I mean everybody goes through their world 00:19:00history and, you know, math was not my strong suit and I remember trying to get through those classes and I did okay, but, none that were necessarily, you know, really, don't stand out in any particular way except the ones I took in speech.

LW: Gotcha. Also one thing I'm really curious about--so when we talk about desegregation at that time, we often talk about the students. But the fact that you mention that there was an African American instructor. Do you happen to know if this was a permanent faculty member or--.

JC: I don't know.

LW: Anything about--?

JC: I don't know. I really don't.

LW: Just curious.

JC: You know it's interesting. When you're at that point in your life, the things that you are attuned to are--I don't know. Maybe it's just your ego. You just think about the things you know are important to you at that point. I didn't--that wasn't one thing that really, I thought about. In terms of other 00:20:00individuals though, that I remember from that period. You were asking about my experience going into the university. About the only experience that I remember that was a negative one with another individual, like authority figure, was the dorm mother at Cotten Hall. It was evident to me because, I guess because I was looking for it, that there were some--I don't know how to describe it. I think I picked up on some issues she had with my being there. I remember that, at the time I was dating a young man who was from A&T, and at that time, the girls would have their boyfriends come over and they would sit in the parlor. And that was just the way things were done at the time. And he and I were just sitting in the parlor. We weren't doing that was, you know, not supposed to be done. And I 00:21:00remember her asking us to leave the parlor. And I was really kind of struck by the fact that she asked us to leave but other girls were able to come in with their boyfriends and sit there. And I--as he left that evening and I went back up to my room, and by this time my two white roommates and I were on at least, you know, on good terms and they were saying to me that she was prejudiced and I needed to understand that was why she had asked me to do that. And that was--I guess when it came full, you know, fully imbued in me that there some of those prejudices there. Other than that, though, I thought, for the most part, people at the university, no matter what their feelings were, gave us a pretty good experience. We sort of, once we got together in our own little nucleus of friends, like the ten girls of us, those of us who got together, we banded together and had out own little family of sorts. And so that was our way of combating anything that might have been detrimental to us at that time. We 00:22:00weren't as aware of it. Or, if we were, we just sort of hit it head on because we were a group rather than individuals. And that was also the time when we joined the Neo-Black Society which was another way of our banding together with some sort of support. So--but, no, other than that, I think those were the individuals that stood out.

LW: Okay, yes, because you've already kind of touched on the question is what you thought the relationship like with student and administration. I think when you were there it was Chancellors Otis Singletary and James Ferguson.

JC: Yes.

LW: And so I'm assuming there was not a lot of interaction with higher up administration.

JC: No, not at all.

LW: Alright so go ahead and mark--those all--and so you already touched on an organization we try to learn more about in these oral histories, the Neo-Black Society. So could you tell me a little bit about your involvement, kind of what 00:23:00you thought about the group, what were some, maybe, highlight moments that come to your mind when you think about the organization? Kind of what it meant to be--to be able to be a member of the organization at that time?

JC: You know it was kind of a strange thing to go from an all-black existence to then the need to sort of form this small group within a large group. And we sort of were, just swept, I was, I was kind of swept into without having any active interest or really participation. I just said, "Okay, this is what the black students are doing. I'm in," you know. And that was also, I think, indicative of where the country was at that point. You know, we were experiencing a lot of those pivotal moments in the civil rights history. And so as it was happening outside of UNCG, the things that we were doing on the campus 00:24:00were consistent with that and mirroring what was going on. And so, the Neo-Black Society was our way of saying, "We're here. We're not gonna, you know, be treated like this anymore. This is who we are and we're proud of who we are." And so one of my friends, she was an upperclassman but she was very active in the Neo-Black Society, one of the formative members, sort of led us into the kinds of activities and the rhetoric of the day. So she helped us understand what was going on, she talked about the activities, we were, we were in. There was no question just by virtue the fact we were there, we were in. And I do remember participating in a number of different programs and I just remember 00:25:00being a part of a choir for a program that we did. But I just, just felt that was an avenue for us to feel like we had some connectedness to who we were within that larger university. And so, while I didn't have any kind of organizational role, I did really appreciate the existence of an organization like that on campus. And the relationships I think that it afforded.

LW: It was kind of a safe space.

JC: Absolutely.

LW: Safe space. And so I know you mentioned a few times that there were programs that the organization did. Do you remember what these programs consisted of? What they were about?

JC: They were celebratory in nature mostly. I remember us doing, I don't know whether it was February or what month it was but I remember being in a choir and our singing "Lift Every Voice and Sing" and we were part of a choir and they brought in different performance, performers that were doing acts that were reflective of our culture at the time. So they were much, they were more 00:26:00around--I wouldn't say just entertainment. They had, they had purpose, of course, but they probably were not as political as maybe some organizations on campus are right now. And maybe that's where I was at the point. I saw it as just a way for us to get together and celebrate who we were.

LW: Okay, so what--so we have the Neo-Black Society. Were there other extracurricular organization or activities you participated in?

JC: No, there were, there were groups of the sorority from the other--from A&T, Bennett-- sisters from the other schools that came over and tried to recruit some of us for their sororities at the time. But, I'm trying to remember if any of us 00:27:00who were in our little nucleus of ten people joined. Not at the time. I think we all kind of prided ourselves in being None Phi None, you know [laughter]. But, several, there were some girls on campus who joined the Deltas [Delta Sigma Theta Sorority, Incorporated] and maybe even the AKAs [Alpha Kappa Alpha Sorority, Incorporated], I can't remember. But, we did not. We just stayed to ourselves and did not join the sororities. But that was--the other thing that was good about the geographical location of the university in Greensboro was that we had the opportunity to socialize with the students from A&T and Bennett, which was huge for us. I mean that was an opportunity for us to break out of the all-white bubble of UNCG and really connect with our own. So, actually my husband is an A&T alum and through social outlets that were provided by going 00:28:00back and forth to A&T, that was how we kind of survived socially.

LW: Yes, that's one of the questions I always try to ask just to get an idea of, you know, was there a lot of interaction with the African American students who were at UNCG with the two HBCUs [historically black colleges and universities] in the area.

JC: Right.

LW: So it sounds like there was quite a bit going on.

JC: Yes, yes. But you know it was interesting, Lisa, it wasn't as much of an--I did not feel there was necessarily an outreach between universities. Like A&T didn't have programs that invited us to come over and be a part of it or anything like that nor did we have programs that, you know, solicited their attendance. But there were individual students who knew each other just from being social within the area and through that we learned about when the games were happening at A&T or when there was a party going on or something like that. So they were more individual than, than school-wide.

LW: Okay, well, okay. So if you just happen to know.

JC: Yes.

LW: What neighborhood and what day to be on campus.

JC: Word of mouth.

LW: Cool.

JC: You know that's how we, you learned about things.

LW: Okay. So when you weren't, you know, studying or in class, what were some of the things that you and your friends would do socially on campus or off campus?

JC: Yes, we liked to, you know, as I think about it now, I keep going back and forth between now and my experience with all the opportunities students have now. We didn't have necessarily have extracurricular activities per say. Like there weren't things that, that I would say we would get together and do for fun except we used to play cards a lot, we used to go shopping, if there was a concert in town, we would do that. But, we used to just get together in each other's room and just kind of socialize that way. No organized activities per se. And I think that one of the things I encouraged, have encouraged my kids to 00:30:00do, they are all grown now, but over the years I've always encouraged them to get connected to some other things. Maybe it's because I didn't do that as much when I was in college. But I think more than anything else the time spent away from class, when we weren't studying, was just with each other, socializing and just connecting that way.

LW: Okay. So, you mentioned that your first year you stayed in Cotten Hall.

JC: Yes.

LW: Did you stay in Cotten or did you move to another residence hall?

JC: No, I moved to Mendenhall [Residence Hall].

LW: Okay.

JC: The next two years and then my senior year we moved off-campus to an apartment.

LW: Oh, okay. So could you, I know you talked about, you know, the incident with being in the parlor, you know, in Cotten. Are there other memories you have about dorm life? What was it like to be in the residence hall at that time period?

JC: Well it was interesting. After my first year having the two white roommates, you know, we could--and the first year I was in Cotten Hall, there were, I want to say two or three other African American students. Two of them 00:31:00roomed together and one was in a room like I was with a white roommate. And so, we became--the two, all four of us became friends. But, the next year we could select our roommate and so we all moved together. You know, the black girls moved together. And I have to say that upon moving to Mendenhall and having that little community of girls within Mendenhall, little bit of a different experience in terms of college life for us. It felt more like what I think it would have felt like to have gone to one of your HBCUs because then we were our own community within a community. And, if things that were going on--it's 00:32:00interesting, at that point, the white students were not a factor. They sort of were--I won't say non-existent. They were there but we no longer interacted with them, except in class. All of our conversations, community, whatever, was just among us. I never thought about until just this moment. When I was Cotten Hall, over the course of that year, that first, freshman year, because I was connected through my roommates' associations with their friends, I remember fixing white girls' hair and them coming in the room and asking me when they used to see me straighten my hair was I burning it and me having to tell them, "Of course not. Would I be sitting here burning my hair? You know, on purpose." Yes, just kind of crazy, goofy stuff like that. But, I remember there being two or three people that I could tell you by name that I knew at that point. But when I moved to Mendenhall and we became our own little group, I had no other contacts or even names of people that I could tell you I met after that point.

LW: Well, that's really interesting. So would you say that kind of extended into the classroom? You know, what were the interactions, kind of like, amongst the students, you know, especially when you are starting to get into these desegregated environments?

JC: Same thing.

LW: Okay.

JC: No, you know how you have team work within classrooms--I don't remember a lot of that happening when I was in school there, but, no, none of that. I can't point to anyone that I remember working with when I was in school. I was someone who walked in the classroom, you know, listened to the lecture, you know, got the studies, and left and we were--how do you? We were co-existing I guess because we just did not--we didn't integrate to that point. Or we didn't at that time. Yes.

LW: Oh, okay. And so, you know, UNCG, when you were there, was still in its early years as UNCG because before it was Woman's College [The Woman's College of the University of North Carolina], so I didn't know if you could speak a little bit about maybe the campus environment, you know, as they were--We know 00:34:00from primary sources that there were some men but not a lot. So did it still feel pretty much like a woman's college like?

JC: Yes.

LW: How would you describe it?

JC: Yes. We had just, I think, gotten the Spartans [mascot] as the basketball team or whatever. I mean, it was, there were probably were, when I got there, less than ten African American males. So, it was still, very much a woman's college. It was really interesting. I went back, last year I guess it was, when the Lift Every Verse--Voice and Sing quilt display was going on, okay, at Greensboro and I saw the guys there and I was like, "Boy, this is so weird for me, to see all these men on campus." Because that was not the experience that I had. And we--our only exposure to men, most men, was from A&T. Most of the girls 00:35:00had boyfriends from A&T or one of the other universities. Not a lot of men. So, it was very much a female experience when I got there. And I should probably supplement something I said earlier about association with other students, other white students. It didn't happen so much in my undergraduate years but by the time I got to graduate school, I found myself interacting much more with white students. So, yes, I guess it was very much an African American, female existence for me from the time I would say--got on campus to when I left. Really, because I moved off campus my senior year and never really felt like the males where a huge entity there. They were there but they certainly were not a huge part of campus life for us.

LW: Well, are there any traditions that you remember that the university would do or have? I know a lot of alumni talk about the class jackets and class rings. 00:36:00So I didn't know if there were any others or if you had any comments yourself about some of those traditions?

JC: Well, it's interesting you should mention the class jackets. I was very much a part of that culture when I first got there, so yes, I do have, and I do say, "Do," and not did, still have my class jacket. Somehow I lost my class ring. My best girlfriend still has hers and wears it on her pinky now. But it's funny you should mention the class jackets because I met my husband wearing that jacket. I was out in downtown Greensboro in front of, what was then a store called Montaldo's, and he saw me wearing this old jacket and he stopped. He from the Omega Psi Phi Fraternity [Incorporated] and he was out with his fraternity brothers. And he saw me with this jacket on and he said, "Where do you go to school?-- And I told him. And so I always credit the UNC[G] jacket as being kind of my--it triggered something. I don't know. But we wound up meeting each other and getting married after that, so. I did--those were the only two things that I remember and that was early on in my career there. I would say, past my sophomore year, I wasn't really into a lot of the UNCG paraphernalia. In fact, I 00:37:00remember going through the graduation, not really wanting to go through, kind of, the whole ceremony when I got to graduate school but when I was in undergraduate school; graduating of course I went through it because my parents were proud to see me graduate so.

LW: Yes, so just curious, what color was it for your year?

JC: Was it blue or black? I know it was black for the--the robes were black and we had gold and white collars and--.

LW: For graduation robe?

JC: Right.

LW: Oh, okay. So you had the navy blue jackets?

JC: Oh, for the jackets? I'm sorry.

LW: Oh, it's okay.

JC: The jackets were camel.

LW: Oh camel, oh okay.

JC: They were camel, camel with a little emblem on the pocket.

LW: Okay.

JC: Yes, and the pinky rings were kind of an onyx round flat stone.

LW: Okay and it had the picture of Minerva on top?

JC: Exactly.

LW: Just wanted to make sure it was the same one that I--.

JC: Same one. Yes [chuckles].

LW: Always have to make sure we're not missing--. Okay, okay, and so those traditions were still going strong when you were a student there and having those--?

JC: Yes.

LW: Okay, so, I know when you were--I think you may have been a student during the assassinations that took place in 1968 with Dr. King, or was that--?

JC: It was before.

LW: It was before. Okay.

JC: It would have been the March before I went to school.

LW: Okay, that's right.

JC: Which added to my whole angst about going to tell you the truth because I think he got shot in either--was it March or April-- of '67, I want to say. Anyway, it was before I went to school.

LW: Okay. It was one of my questions, trying to get my timeline right and so--it's kind of one of my events to lead up in asking, you know, if there was any kind of political atmosphere or culture on campus?

JC: Yes.

LW: Could you describe it or be able to put into words what that was like?

JC: You know there weren't any, any events on campus I would say that were specifically connected to what was going on around that. I do remember that the, I don't know whether they still do it or not, but before we went to school, that freshman year, we were given a book to read. And the name of the book was The Other America [Michael Harrington, 1962]. And we had to--every, all of the freshmen had to read this book prior to coming into the university. And I would say, in answer to your question that that was the university's way of speaking to the times because it was very much a book about what was going on in minority 00:40:00America. I don't remember specifics about everything that was in it but I do remember reading that book and thinking that, "This is really about me and my culture." Or, not just black America but cultures like mine and so I thought it was very interesting that was the book they selected for everybody on campus to read prior to coming. All the freshmen had to read it.

LW: Wow. Okay--I didn't realize they did--I know when I was going to undergrad, you know, they had the freshman reading where you read--but, and they would put you in groups and you would have discussion. So did you have group discussions about the book when you first got to campus or was it just, you know, read this book, it will get you introduce you to campus academics.

JC: I think--I don't recall. I know we discussed it at some point. May have been in some kind of, you know, large, you know what do you call them--assemblies or something. I think that--we didn't do it in small groups. I know that for a fact because I don't recall sitting down with anyone and really having that intimate discussion about the book. But I do think they had some sort of large assembly where they talked about it. Not in length but it was--it may have been, an 00:41:00attempt. Let's put it that way, quote, unquote, an attempt to address the times. But I would say the atmosphere on campus, I didn't pick up on anything that was--it was kind of like you this, you knew it was there. It was kind of this underlying feeling that this was existing. Nobody really--people kind of tip-toed around it but you really didn't confront it heat on. I don't recall any clashes among the students or any outright arguments that were race based or anything like that. Not like a Berkeley [University of California, Berkeley in Berkeley, California] or you know a place where people were actively involved in the civil rights movement. Everything was very quiet, quiet and calm at UNCG when I first 00:42:00got there.

LW: Would you say the same be extended to Greensboro as a city?

JC: Yes, I would. I mean I think--Greensboro is an interesting city because, you know, there was that huge African American part of the city and, with churches and so, you know, it was very much like, well not like my home place but, again, neighborhood feel because you had so many people of your own kind living around the HBCUs there. We didn't venture much into the white areas of Greensboro. In fact, I probably couldn't even tell you where they are even now because we stayed in those communities that were friendly to black students. We went to church at Institutional Baptist there. So, the city did not reflect at the time and it's interesting because years before, you know, before we had the sit-ins 00:43:00and all of the things that went on at A&T there. My husband was a part--he's two years older than I am and so he was there during a part of that whole thing. But I would say the city had kind of calmed down after that point and we didn't see that kind of unrest.

LW: Okay. Okay. So I know you've already mentioned a few times that you also did graduate work--.

JC: Yes.

LW: At UNCG and that was also in speech pathology.

JC: Yes.

LW: Okay, so what were some of the other things you did after you graduated from UNCG?

JC: Dr. Newton, as I mentioned before, was very pivotal in helping me to think about where I was going to go next. So I applied for jobs in the public school. I also applied for a job with a private speech and language clinic in Charlotte [North Carolina]. And I remember going to three interviews. One was in Roanoke, Virginia, one was in Fairfax, Virginia, and the other was in Durham, North Carolina. And, I applied for the positions. Nothing came through until almost at the last minute. Durham Schools came through and I said, "Okay, I'll take that because I got to have a job," and that was the September of the following year 00:44:00after graduation. But then the other jobs came through and I was like, you know, "Dang it. I wish I had waited. I could have gotten a job--." Because I really wanted to work in the D.C. [Washington, District of Columbia] area, was hoping the Fairfax, Virginia, job would pull through. Well, as luck would have it, I went to the Durham Public Schools. I hated the job. I only worked there for about a month I think when a job in Charlotte came through with the speech and hearing association and I think, I'm sorry, the speech and hearing clinic there. And I think that Dr. Newton was--she knew Don Bynum who was the director of that clinic at the time. Put in a good word for me and that was my first real job following, following graduation. So I worked at the Charlotte Speech and Hearing 00:45:00Center for a year and then my husband and I got married following that year. Then my story becomes one of just kind of traveling behind him and finding various jobs all around. So, following that position, we moved to upstate New York. I worked--I didn't work right away in speech pathology because he was in the service at the time after he--he was fulfilling R.O.T.C. [Reserve Officer Training Corps] commitments. So, once he got out of that, we moved to Cincinnati, Ohio. I worked in Cincinnati in the public schools for a while. We both hated our jobs there. I was working in public schools and he was working with Proctor & Gamble. So we wanted to move back to North Carolina and we came back to North Carolina. He came back with the intention of taking a job, sort of transitioning into the area so we could move home close to family with the hopes of finding a job in engineering, which was his degree, engineering physics, in the Research Triangle Park. He said, "I will work on this job and work on finding another job while I'm here." Well, that didn't happen. I worked at Shaw 00:46:00University [Raleigh, North Carolina] in their Speech and Pathology Department while he was doing that for about a year. And since he couldn't find a position here, he wound up getting a job with General Electric in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. So that took us to Milwaukee, Wisconsin, after we had spent about a year and a half here in North Carolina. And there, I have to say I found one of the jobs in my profession that I loved most in all the jobs that I've ever had. I worked as a clinical supervisor and a instructor in speech pathology at Marquette University for about seven years. And loved, loved the role. He worked, while he was working with GE. Then, here we go again. He had another job transfer to 00:47:00Chicago [Illinois], so he took a role in Chicago with a former boss of his that went to Phillips, what is now Phillips Medical and I wound up going in, back into the public schools and did not like going back to that role. So, it was at that point I did a career transition out of speech pathology altogether and moved into the role of training and development. And so, I took some contract positions as a trainer and following that was able to get a couple of key assignments with consulting companies and eventually would up at MetLife in training and development. Just retired October of 2013.

LW: Oh, congratulations.

JC: So, thank you. It was, kind of a circuitous route in my career. You know, they had me starting out in speech language and pathology but I think it was one of those things where you got a really solid foundation in your education and in 00:48:00your training that prepared you for taking on other roles and so I was really happy with where I ended up. I took the things I loved about the profession I think and moved them into my role with these other companies so, that's where I wound up.

LW: Alright. So have you been involved with UNCG since you graduated?

JC: Not really. Not really. You know we just really moved back to North Carolina in 2009. And I actually met a woman who, I'm sure your organization has already in touch with, but she was one of the like pioneers, I would say. She started UNCG back when it was Woman's College back in the early sixties I want to say. And she's in my book club. So, she and I have often talked about things going on at [UNCG]. She's very well connected with the university there. And, 00:49:00she was the one who told me about the Lift Every Voice and Sing [art exhibit]. So, I've been back for that kind of thing but I really hadn't been back to get involved with any of the alumni activities.

LW: So, I know you've mentioned the Lift Every Voice. So this was the art--.

JC: The quilt.

LW: The quilt exhibit for Gwendolyn Jones Magee who was a WC alumni in the Gatewood Gallery.

JC: Yes, exactly, yes.

LW: So this is the same exhibit.

JC: Yes.

LW: Just wanted to clarify and make sure--.

JC: Yes.

LW: Yes, I know about that exhibit. Okay, so what would you want people to take away from your experience at UNCG and the impact it have had on you and your life?

JC: Well, as I think about it and how I relate it to my kids who are now parents, two of them are parents. And I know we often talk about this when I'm in my Bible study groups and things like that. I look at the experience as one 00:50:00where I kind of stepped out on faith that things would be okay because I was really afraid to undertake this journey in my life. But I think that what I learned is that if you apply yourself, if you have a lot of faith, and you surround yourself with the right people, it's all going to turn out and it did for me. I appreciate, I think, the people that I ran into both African American and non-African American at UNCG who sort of shaped, really shaped my path, you know. I've maintained my relationship with my girlfriends from there. I listened to the counsel of Dr. Newton who, I think, was very pivotal in helping me to see that I wasn't who I used to be. That I was now transitioning into another mode in my life. And I would say that if I had it to do over again, I would probably 00:51:00repeat the experience. I think that it was, it was not necessarily an easy journey, but I think it was a worthwhile journey. So I think it was--it was good.

LW: Alright, well Mrs. Clark, I don't have any more formal questions. Is there anything else you would like to add to the interview?

JC: No, no. I think it's been--it's been a little bit cathartic for me to sort of walk my way through that history and think about some of the, you know, aspects of the experience that I really hadn't thought about before. But I want to thank you for the interview.

LW: Thank you so much for sharing and I know that this will be beneficial for students in the future who are--who will hopefully listen to this.

JC: Okay.

LW: Thank you so very much.

JC: You are welcome.

LW: Going to stop recording.

[End of interview]