Oral history interview with Dr. Kathleen Williams, 2016

Brittany Hedrick: My name is Brittany Hedrick and today is Thursday, October 20, 2016. I'm in Parrish Library with Dr. Kathleen Williams, class of 1974, to conduct an oral history interview for the UNCG Institutional Memory Collection. Thank you, Dr. Williams, for participating in this project and sharing your experiences with me. I'd like to start the interview by asking about your childhood. Could you tell me when and where you were born?

Dr. Williams: I was born in Washington DC and do you want my specific birthday?

Brittany Hedrick: Sure.

Dr. Williams: 06/24/52.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay, could you tell me a little bit about your family and your home life?

Dr. Williams: Sure. My dad was a lifer military and so I was actually born at a military hospital, speaking of your own research but I grew up outside Washington DC in suburban Maryland. I have three brothers, one of them is five 00:01:00years older, one is four years older and then I have a twin brother who is five minutes younger than me, which, of course, at the time, was really, really important, 'cause I wasn't the youngest.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. And what did your parents do again?

Dr. Williams: My dad was a professional musician. He was in the Marines and my mother was a homemaker.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. Alright and where did you go to high school?

Dr. Williams: I went to high school ... Again, I grew up in suburban Maryland, a town called Wheaton and went to Wheaton High School.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. What were your favorite subjects?

Dr. Williams: Gosh, I don't know that I ... Probably science but I've always been a reader. I just ... I've always liked school. It's probably why I'm here today as a faculty member. I don't know that I had ... That I could point at a 00:02:00single subject. I liked school.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay and when did you graduate from high school?

Dr. Williams: 1970.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. And what was your education like after high school?

Dr. Williams: I came here as an undergraduate. My parents thought they were sending me to a little southern girl school, even though it was coed, as opposed to all of the ... It's the tail end of the Vietnam War and all of the other places that I applied were sort of Northeast, liberal, more activist places and I landed here for a number of reasons. It may be the next question but it pleased my parents. They thought I was safe.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay, so it was their decision for you to come here rather than-

Dr. Williams: No. No, no, no, it wasn't ... No, it wasn't. It wasn't at all 00:03:00their decision but they were glad that this was the place I chose out of the places that I had applied.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay, and so you arrived here in 1970?

Dr. Williams: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Brittany Hedrick: Okay.

Dr. Williams: Fall of '70.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. Could you tell me about your first days on campus?

Dr. Williams: Gosh, 1970, remember Brittany? I was in the ... What's now Ashby Residential College and it was just starting and sort of the advertising point was you were gonna be in small classes, classes that met in places very much like this library. You could come down in your jimmy jams and so it really was kind of a family atmosphere. It was the first time I was away from home, really. And so it was a very comfortable environment. We took all of our general ed 00:04:00courses together as a group of about 50 students. So, it was nice. I can remember never feeling homesick. I remember all my classmates leaving the first weekend to go back home to Raleigh or Durham or whatever. I couldn't do that 'cause I was 300 miles from home and didn't have a car but I didn't want to.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. Did you have a favorite class or subject here at UNCG?

Dr. Williams: I mean like most students, I changed my major at least twice, I guess. It was the end of the Vietnam War, like I said. We all wanted to save the world. I came as a sociology major and took the intro to soc course and went, 00:05:00what was I thinking? but again, even though I ended up in what's now kinesiology, the classes that even now I remember were like the literature classes. I ended up adoring John Donne, who was a metaphysical poet. I'm sure if I read his stuff today, I would go, ?What was I thinking?? But I can remember thinking at the time figuring out the meaning of his poetry was like a puzzle, so those literature courses I found really, really engaging.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay, and what did you do for fun?

Dr. Williams: Studied. I was pretty much of a dork. Yeah, I pretty much studied. 00:06:00I do have to say that, again, it was the early 70s and I inhaled and so when we were having fun, it was usually around a bag of Doritos and a little weed. My parents aren't living, so they can't hear that.

Brittany Hedrick: Oh my goodness. What social and academic events stand out in your mind?

Dr. Williams: Like I said, I was in ... I ended up after my first semester in what was then physical education, what's now kinesiology and it was a pretty small, very close knit department and so whether it was classmates or faculty, a lot of what we did kind of centered around that, so hanging out in the building, 00:07:00hanging out with classmates, studying. I don't really remember socializing that much. We did sport and exercise because those were of interest but I don't really ... We didn't have any money. We didn't go anywhere.

Brittany Hedrick: So, no extracurricular activities?

Dr. Williams: Not really. I was never a good enough athlete to make any of the teams and so, no, not so much. Studying was my extracurricular activity.

Brittany Hedrick: That's good. What about the residence halls, what were they like?

Dr. Williams: Well, I lived ... Like I said, I was in what's now Ashby Residential College and so my first year was in Mary Foust and at that time, the 00:08:00residential college was in both Mary Foust and Guilford, so I spent my first two years there and if my memory serves, Mary Foust was the first male and female dorm. At the time, the men were on the third floor and the women were on the second and first but it was quite controversial at the time, and it was ... Like I was talking about earlier, having a small group of students that you went to virtually all your classes with and so on was a really nice bonding experience and even though I don't really see those folks anymore, every time I walk into the EUC, those posters that are right inside the rotunda there, one of them is my classmates from the residential college and I think of them fondly every time 00:09:00I go in but in my junior year, I moved over to Moore and it was just a big dorm where most of the PE majors lived.

Brittany Hedrick: So, could you tell me about the dining hall food?

Dr. Williams: It's way better now than it was then. It was pretty much dining hall food. It was a cafeteria. It was like the K&W, yeah, it was pretty bland and I'm sure we all did our freshman 25 or whatever the heck it is. I thought that was a really interesting question. You could still smoke in the dining hall.

Brittany Hedrick: I guess, how has it changed over time?

Dr. Williams: It's way better.

Brittany Hedrick: Yeah?

Dr. Williams: Yeah. There are more choices, and it's healthier.

Brittany Hedrick: Could you tell me about any professors that made an impression on you?

Dr. Williams: Actually, there ... A couple of the professors who are still alive are still in town and the most shaping person was Kate Barrett, who was actually still on faculty in the kin department when I came back as a faculty member and when I became a PE major, I assumed that I was gonna be a high school PE major or PE teacher and coach and kind of the typical stuff and Kate was an elementary school PE teacher and I took her class as a, maybe, second semester sophomore and was hooked and it really resulted in a lifelong friendship. When I 00:11:00graduated, I went from gonna be this high school PE teacher coach to what was I thinking I was gonna teach and did teach elementary school physical education for several years. When it was time to think about graduate school, Kate was the first person that I called to say where should I go, what should I do. When I came here almost 30 years ago as a faculty member, she continued to be a role model and even now, as she's pushing 80 or whatever she is, we're still friends. So, of all the people, she was probably the one. Rosemary McGee, who is also 00:12:00still living, was also an important role model but not nearly to the extent that Kate was.

Brittany Hedrick: And her last name was Barrett?

Dr. Williams: Barrett, B-A-R-R-E-T-T.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. Did you ever feel discriminated against while you were at UNCG?

Dr. Williams: Never, nope.

Brittany Hedrick: Outside of UNCG?

Dr. Williams: No, we probably didn't go out very often. The one story, which has nothing to do with discrimination but it kind of shows the time, as a young woman at UNCG, the whole 60s and 50s and so on, you had to wear a dress. Most of that was beginning to change. The signing in and out of the dorm was a lot more flexible, although we did have to sign in and out. There were those changes that 00:13:00were beginning to happen. The thing that I always found hysterically interesting was The Corner was kind of the only place, down there on Tate Street that we went, 'cause again, none of us had cars, and if you went to one of the non-bars on Tate Street, you were considered on campus and you didn't have to sign out that you were leaving campus but if you were going to a bar on Tate Street, it was considered off campus and you did have to sign out.

Dr. Williams: So, it was this very weird time of what was expected as a young woman. I don't think the guys probably had to do all that but we did but no, in terms of ... No, no. I never felt discriminated against.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay.

Dr. Williams: I was at a girls' school. The guys probably felt discriminated against.

Brittany Hedrick: In what ways has the environment changed since your arrival in 1989?

Dr. Williams: Since I came back as a faculty member, everything has changed, not just at UNCG. This, to me, has always been a safe place, whether you were gay, straight, black, white, I've always felt free to be who I am. I'm not somebody who's gonna march in a gay pride march or anything necessarily but I have never felt anything but welcomed by my colleagues, whether gay or straight. My department chair, when I first got here, I went to a party without my then 00:15:00partner and his first question was where is she? So, it's always been a really safe place. I think unfortunately with some of the events going on around us now, UNCG is probably less safe than it's ever been but I think the world is. I think Greensboro is. There's a lot more anger but I would not make a distinction between UNCG versus the city of Greensboro. I think UNCG is probably still safer.

Brittany Hedrick: And that actually has to do with my next question, I was gonna ask how have larger issues in the nation, like the Supreme Court ruling in favor of same sex marriage or in the state like the passage of HB2 affected you personally?

Dr. Williams: The day they passed HB2 was one of the most distressing days of my 00:16:00life because here was a group of mostly white, poorly educated males who woke up one day and said let's take this group's civil rights away because we can. This, if you'll excuse my french, bullshit about protecting women and children in bathrooms is ... If it wasn't so sad, it would be laughable because we already have laws to protect people in bathrooms and the fact that we have a party that is so obsessed with what people are doing in bathrooms is beyond sad and cynical to me, and it was a smokescreen. They added clauses in there that took away the 00:17:00rights of citizens like myself if I am feeling discriminated against and want to go to state court rather than federal court, I can't do that. If the city of Greensboro wants to set a higher minimum wage than the bigots in Raleigh deem acceptable, we can't do that. I mean it's a smokescreen for their small, uneducated, bigoted minds.

Dr. Williams: On the other hand, I have been partnered for 20 years and we never even ... We never talked about marriage because we assumed it would never even be a possibility and she and I are big hockey fans and we are Carolina 00:18:00Hurricanes season ticket holders and you'll understand this, I am getting to the story, it's relevant and on, I think it was October 10th, two years ago, we were sitting at opening night of the hockey season in Raleigh and my phone buzzed and the suits had come back saying that the law of the land would be that people like me could get married and it almost makes me cry now, it does make me cry. We sat there and wept and it was an amazing feeling to have these people acknowledge, even if it was 5-4, that we deserve the same rights as everyone 00:19:00else and then it was like, holy shit, so are we gonna do it?

Dr. Williams: And so, in fact, we got married on July 8th. We had a ceremony in our backyard and our families came. My partner's a Brit, my spouse, we're not wives. No wives here. My spouse is a Brit and her brother and sister-in-law came across the pond and my brother came up from South Florida and we just had a great party. So, it's been a hard couple of years and I'm looking forward to November 8th when we throw as many of the bastards out as we can. I think the Republicans will still unfortunately have way too big a majority in the legislature but I think we are gonna send McCrory back to Duke Power and they 00:20:00can have him.

Brittany Hedrick: I agree. So, I know you said you had never really felt discriminated against on campus but just to reiterate, did you ever feel that you were defined by others solely by your sexuality?

Dr. Williams: I don't think so. I don't think I've ever felt that way. I've certainly been in situations where there were the whispers. I can remember and certainly not on campus but I can remember in the neighborhood where I lived when I first moved here, asking some kids to get off my lawn or whatever and 00:21:00being called a dyke. But those kinds of things are really few and far between, so no, I don't ... No.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. And I think you already answered this but is UNCG an inclusive and accepting environment?

Dr. Williams: I'm sure there are people who would disagree and I know there have been issues around particularly the scare tactics of the Republicans about muslims and everything and I applaud ... Every time I walk through EUC and those kids are down there with the signs, I'm a muslim, ask me anything, I just thank them for doing that. I think universities tend to be more welcoming than what goes on outside universities and I think for the most part, UNCG fits that mold.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. Just to back up a little bit, what was the political atmosphere on campus like whether during your time as a student or your time as a faculty member?

Dr. Williams: Well, in the 70s, it was the tail end of the Vietnam War. Interestingly, even though Greensboro and to a lesser extent, what was then Woman's College in the 60s had played a major role in the civil rights movement with the A&T four and everything, I don't really have that big of a recollection of the civil rights stuff in the sense of the history of Greensboro. I was living outside DC in 1968 when Martin Luther King was killed. We could see 00:23:00Washington burning from where I lived, and so even though Greensboro had had such a major role, I wasn't aware of it in the same way and probably because I had grown up outside DC where it was so big and so heartrending. So, it was ... Vietnam was ending. Nixon was getting ready to be booted out of the white house but we were students, so we were kind of insulated from that, and then in the 30 years that I've been here, as I said before, there have been so many changes.

Dr. Williams: We all remember where we were on September 11th. I had walked out 00:24:00of my ... I was department chair in kinesiology at the time and I walked out of my office to walk across the building and there's an equipment cage if you've never been in that building, there's an equipment cage that athletics uses and they have a TV and there were just all these people going downstairs and clustering around and it's like what? And the first plane had just hit or the second plane, I guess, had just hit and people were just mesmerized. I don't ... A residential student might feel differently but I go home at night, I put on the news, so I don't have a sense of the climate here being any different than 00:25:00it is out there.

Dr. Williams: Again, we're insulated. Most of the people I work with are big D, big L democrats. So, we don't have much interaction with those people.

Brittany Hedrick: Do you recall the incident on campus in 1982 when a student, Kenneth Crump, committed suicide?

Dr. Williams: I don't. Do you know the actual date?

Brittany Hedrick: I do not. I know it was in 1982.

Dr. Williams: You don't know like fall or spring? The reason I ask is 1982 was the year I finished my doctoral work and so I was finishing up in May, I was getting ready to move, a new job, I have read about it subsequently but in terms 00:26:00of being aware of it as something in the news, no, I was living first in Wisconsin and then in Oklahoma.

Brittany Hedrick: That's right and you came here in-

Dr. Williams: '89.

Brittany Hedrick: '89.

Dr. Williams: Yeah.

Brittany Hedrick: Can you tell me a little bit about that? Like what made you decide to come back? What did you do? Can you just tell me a little bit about that?

Dr. Williams: Yeah, I was trained as an academic. I had been at two other universities. I had been at the University of Oklahoma and Kansas State University for six years between the two and I had the opportunity to interview for a position here and it was attractive for a number of reasons. I was raised on the East Coast, I had aging parents, I would be closer to them. UNCG was a 00:27:00place that I had very fond memories of and so there were just three or four things that said, let me look at this and then I was offered the job and the rest, as they say, is history.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. So, what were your proudest accomplishments and contributions during your time here at UNCG?

Dr. Williams: So, as a faculty member or student?

Brittany Hedrick: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Dr. Williams: Okay. Oh gosh, when I came back, one of the reasons I came back and I think it's why ... What many faculty members think they want is an opportunity to mentor doctoral students 'cause we have a PhD program and that was another reason to come back, to have that possibility and I've had several 00:28:00students but I think the thing that I am the proudest of and this is gonna sound really cheesy, is helping students. I've really realized how I really enjoy working with undergraduates and when I had the opportunity to become an associate dean, my dean said ... I won't bore you with the whole story but I moved from a unit where I was the only associate dean to one where there were gonna be two associate deans and I was the one who was already there. A new one was gonna be hired and my dean said well, of course, you want to become the graduate associate dean, right? It was like, no, and so I think the thing that I've really come to appreciate is undergraduate education.

Dr. Williams: One of the things that I coordinate in the school is our scholarship program and being able to give away money is pretty cool but just helping undergraduates I think is the thing that I've really enjoyed and I think I'm pretty good at it.

Brittany Hedrick: Has the department changed tremendously throughout your time here?

Dr. Williams: I mean I've gone from being in a department that has changed its name twice to being in a position as an associate dean in a school which originally had four departments, which now has 10 departments and programs, so and then to go back to my department, when I first got here, there were probably a hundred majors, undergraduate majors to now they have almost 800. So, not only 00:30:00has the department changed enormously, the school has changed enormously. I think there were 8000 students at UNCG when I came back and there are just about 20 now, 20 thousand. So, enormous changes just numerically but also organizationally.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. Is there any projects or research you've done which you are particularly proud of?

Dr. Williams: Yeah, I mean I did have a research mission when I first got here and my areas mode of behavior which is how people learn movement and that means a lot of different things at a lot of different levels but my area of research was balance and mobility in older adults and having just told you how much I 00:31:00enjoy undergraduate education, older adults are a hoot. They are very eager to participate. They show up, which is often a challenge with research. I don't know if you've had anybody not show up to these interviews yet but a lot of times subjects don't show up and they always show up and they're very interested in what you're doing and how it can help them. So, that was fun.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. Any interactions with chancellors that really stick out to you? Chancellor Sullivan, Brady?

Dr. Williams: I'm on my fourth and yeah, you mentioned Pat, she was an amazing woman. She was really good at a lot of things. Probably her weakness was maybe a 00:32:00little too much status quo but she was an amazing woman and some of my favorite stories are running into her at the Harris Teeter. She was dressed like ... Pat was always dressed to the 12s, probably come from an event even at 11 o'clock Saturday morning. I, on the other hand, was usually in a ball cap and a ratty T-shirt but she knew my name, we would chat over the lettuce. She was just a very personable person.

Dr. Williams: I know Linda Brady a little bit and I have to give her props as someone who was very interested in the LGBTQ community. I was on an alumni ... I 00:33:00was involved in alumni group that she came and spoke with on a number of occasions about our issues as faculty and staff and so while she has a very different personality from Pat's, she was very supportive and I don't know Frank at all. I mean he seems like a great guy, certainly very dynamic but I don't know him.

Brittany Hedrick: Okay. Could you tell me about how attending and working at UNCG has impacted and affected your life and what does UNCG mean to you?

Dr. Williams: UNCG is home to me. I've spent more of my life at UNCG between being an undergrad and a faculty member, than I've spent anywhere else. I was 00:34:00real aware of that a few years ago and I went, oh yeah, now it is just over half, now it's more than half. And it really is home and I can't imagine being anywhere else. I'm now at the point where I'm thinking about retirement and so the decision about are we gonna stay in Greensboro, are we gonna go somewhere else? We only half joke about November 9th and will we have to move to Canada. That's looking a little better now like we won't have to but yeah, it really is home.

Brittany Hedrick: Well, we're doing these interviews as part of the 125th anniversary of the university, so this is a great time for reflection. Where do 00:35:00you think ... What is the future for UNCG and where do you see UNCG going as an institution in the next 25-50 years?

Dr. Williams: That's a hard one because I think higher ed is gonna change so much. When I got here we barely had computers on our desks and now we have more and more online education where we don't even necessarily see the students. I think that's only gonna grow as we have more and more nontraditional students, so will we even have buildings like this in 50 years? I don't know. I think ... I mean I hope we do. I think there's something to be said for the past and 00:36:00holding onto it and remembering ... Holding onto what's good and remembering what we've needed to improve and so I would hope that even in 50 years we're able to look at our students and say you would really benefit more from me seeing your butt in that seat every week, where you, online, great, you're ready for that, you can do that. So, I hope we can still be an institution and I say institution as UNCG and higher ed in general, I hope we can still be an institution that can look at individuals.

Dr. Williams: As UNCG has grown, it's gotten harder to do that. I was talking 00:37:00about residential college classes of, they said, small classes, well, then a small class was 15. Now, a small class is 50. I taught an undergrad class last year with nearly a hundred students in it and there are lots that are bigger than that. I hope we can continue to find ways even when we have to have large classes of dealing with individuals.

Brittany Hedrick: So, you really do want to be close with your students?

Dr. Williams: Yeah, I mean I think from a pedagogical standpoint, if I know your name, I can hold you more accountable. You hopefully have more warm fuzzies 00:38:00because you have a sense that I give a rip about you and I think to be able to put a face to a name and ask you how you're doing and even by looking up in canvas quickly, I can remind myself, you're not doing so well or you're doing great and so I can give you that feedback even if I have a hundred of you in my class, I think, is important.

Brittany Hedrick: Well, I don't think I have any more formal questions for you but did you have anything you'd like to add about your time here at UNCG as a student or a faculty member? Any other experiences you would like to mention?

Dr. Williams: I don't think so. I mean when I think this is actually my 29th year and I just kind of turn around and go how did I get here? How was I 00:39:00suddenly here for almost 30 years? There's been some good and bad and ugly but it's mostly been great and when we bring people in to interview for jobs, it's one of our points of pride to be able to say there's a lot of us who have been here for a long time and it's not because we're broken down people who couldn't find jobs in other places, it's because even in light of incredibly difficult budgetary times, and increasingly unsupportive legislature, this place is still special. The end.

Brittany Hedrick: Well, thank you so much, that was wonderful.

Dr. Williams: Well, that didn't take very long.

Brittany Hedrick: No.