Oral history interview with Dr. John Locke, 2016

Lacey Wilson: All right, so today is Wednesday, December 7, at 1:00 PM. I am interviewing Dr. Locke from the music department, and we're just going to jump right in, just start with some biographical information from the beginning. Where were you born?

Dr. Locke: I was born in Charleston, West Virginia.

Lacey Wilson: When?

Dr. Locke: 1952. November 18.

Lacey Wilson: What did your parents do?

Dr. Locke: My father was a watchmaker and a jeweler, and my mother was also, in addition to being a housewife, was a jeweler, and we had a family owned store. A very small jewelry store in South Charleston, and I grew up working in that store.

Lacey Wilson: What did you do in the store?

Dr. Locke: Well, from about sixth grade on, I was the custodian of the jewelry store, and as I progressed through middle school and high school, I learned to 00:01:00do things, little extra chores, whether it was go to the post office and mail things, or pick up things, or do some engraving with an engraving machine, or solder charms onto charm bracelets. My brother was better at these things than I was, and he learned how to size rings from my dad. He was very mechanical. I was not.

Dr. Locke: But we waited on customers, and sold things, and gift wrapped things at Christmas time, and so I was sort of brought up in a small retail store.

Lacey Wilson: Lot of craft things as well, though. Like crafting skills.

Dr. Locke: Yes, little bit.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah. Did you retain any of that?

Dr. Locke: No. No. I think there was always the... Although our parents didn't push, there was always the, "You know, you could take over the family business," but my brother and I both went into music, so-

Lacey Wilson: Oh, your brother also went into music?

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: What did he do?

Dr. Locke: Trombone player, and he was a junior high band director.

Lacey Wilson: Oh, very cool. Where?

Dr. Locke: In Saint Albans, West Virginia.

Lacey Wilson: Okay. So, what was your first instrument?

Dr. Locke: Trombone.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah?

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: When was that, sixth grade?

Dr. Locke: Started in fourth grade. Actually, I started noodling around on a baritone before I got to fourth grade, in third grade. There was one that my brother had brought home, and I honked around on it out of curiosity, and then when fourth grade came along, we went to the music store and bought a student line trombone, and that was it.

Lacey Wilson: That was it?

Dr. Locke: Yeah. I loved it. I knew in fourth grade I was going to be in music.

Lacey Wilson: Did you know what you wanted to do in music?

Dr. Locke: Well, in fourth grade, I don't know that I did. I think... All I know is about halfway through fourth grade, I was playing my trombone at school, in the health room. I was warming up before the teacher got there, who was the high 00:03:00school band director. There were only four of us in this little tiny elementary school that were in band. Two trumpets and two trombones. And I was playing, and I just remember the moment. It was like music grabbed me, and I've said this a million times that I did not pick music, music picked me, and it picked me in fourth grade. It just sort of grabbed me and it said, "This is it, John Locke. This is what you're going to do."

Dr. Locke: And so I think probably through... Probably along about junior high, my goal was to be the trombone soloist with the Marine Band in Washington.

Lacey Wilson: Oh, wow. Yeah.

Dr. Locke: Yeah, 'cause the service bands would come to town, and my parents would take me. I'd hear them. There'd be a soloist, and I'd think, "Man, that's for me. That's what I can do." But, so that was the early days. I had a really 00:04:00great junior high band, a wonderful high school band. Great teachers. Really it was the best band in the state, and so I played in all-county band, I played in all-state band, and lived and breathed it. Took private lessons, just... It was just the most fun you could possibly have for me was playing the trombone in a group.

Lacey Wilson: Was this classical exclusive, or did you do jazz, as well?

Dr. Locke: Well, my school did not have a jazz band, so I didn't really do any actual, honest to goodness jazz playing until I got to college.

Lacey Wilson: So, we'll jump back a little bit. You're planning to go into play trombone, so what colleges are you looking at?

Dr. Locke: Well, when I was young, I attended a couple of music camps. One was run by a very small college in Charleston called Morris Harvey College, and I 00:05:00attended it for a couple of years. I think in fourth grade and fifth grade, as a matter of fact, and ironically, a fellow that I attended music camp, he was probably four years older than I, or maybe five. His name was Benton Hess, and this music, I mean this music camp probably had 60 students, total. A few band students, a few string students, piano players, some singers, it was very tiny, kind of out in the wilderness.

Dr. Locke: But I met this fellow named Benton Hess, on piano, who I think lived in my cabin. There were like eight students in a cabin and a counselor, and ironically, we made the connection from music camp when he was hired at UNCG as the opera coach accompanist. And so he was here... Oh, I don't know, he was here six or seven years, and moved on to another job at the Eastman School of Music. Fantastic musician, pianist, coach of singers, that sort of thing. But yeah, so 00:06:00ironically, two people out of that cabin of eight campers wound up on the music faculty at UNCG.

Lacey Wilson: Talented cabin.

Dr. Locke: Yeah. So, that was... And I attended music camp at Ohio University, probably eighth grade, or seventh grade maybe. I mean, I knew all along music was going to be it for me, because I sort of lived vicariously through my brother. He was six years older, and he was a music major, and so I read his books, and attended some of his concerts, and knew... I could see what my path was going to be.

Lacey Wilson: Where did he go?

Dr. Locke: He went to a little school in southern West Virginia, in Athens, West Virginia, called Concord College.

Lacey Wilson: Did you apply there?

Dr. Locke: No, I only applied one place. I applied to West Virginia University, and the trombone teacher there was recruiting me. I was recruited also by... 00:07:00Because you know, you're in all-state band trombone player, somebody's going to be interested in you. Ironically, I was recruited by the people in music at Southern Mississippi University, but I applied one place, and I knew the trombone teacher was interested. I visited it in the fall. I took my trombone, went to a football game, met the trombone teacher and played for him. Came back a couple of months later and auditioned, and knew that's where I wanted to go.

Dr. Locke: There was another student from my high school, a tuba player who was two years older than I was, and I'd played in a quintet with him, a brass quintet, and he also was very persuasive about, "Look, John, you're going to go into music, there's really only one good music school in the state of West Virginia, and it's at the flagship university, at West Virginia University." He 00:08:00said, "Don't even think about any of the others, because it'd just be a waste of your time and talent," and I said, "Well, that sounds good to me," and it sounded good to my mom, so that's what I did.

Lacey Wilson: Okay. So, when you're at West Virginia, were you looking to do education or performance?

Dr. Locke: Yes, music education.

Lacey Wilson: Okay.

Dr. Locke: Right, I did a music ed degree.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah. It sounded like you had a lot of mentors, heading up to it.

Dr. Locke: Yes. I had the most fantastic teachers. Yeah. I mean, my brother was one of my mentors, but yes, the high school band director, A.E. Raspulaire at South Charleston High, he'd been there 30 years, and had the very best concert band in the state. Never made anything but superior ratings at contests. Fantastic teacher. It was a horn player in my band who wound up as a college horn professor in Texas. Was a clarinet player who was probably 10 years older, eight or 10 years older than I was, who was principal clarinet in the Chicago 00:09:00Symphony for like 40 years. Just really one of the greatest orchestral clarinet players of all time. Fellow named Larry Combs.

Dr. Locke: So, we had... I had great teaching, and went to West Virginia. The first year, there was an interim band director, who did not retain the job. Then they hired a fellow named Don Wilcox, and he was just the sun, the moon, and the stars to me. He was just a phenomenal band director and teacher. I loved everything he did. I took conducting from him. I played in his band, his marching band, his wind ensemble. I wanted to be like him. I wanted to learn from him, and when I finished my Bachelor's degree, I stayed on to do a Master's, and I was his graduate assistant with the bands. And when I finished my Master's, the legislature funded a position, which they'd not had, which was 00:10:00a Faculty Assistant Band Director position. They'd used grad students before.

Dr. Locke: And they also needed a saxophone teacher, and so they combined assistant band with saxophone, and I'm a trombonist, but the funding came along in the early summer, and it was like, "Oh, what are we going to do? Well, we're just hire Locke for a year, give him a one year job. You like what he did. And then we'll search for the band/saxophone job." So, there I was. I was 22, I had a Master's degree, and I was an Interim Assistant Professor of Music at a school that had 24,000 students.

Lacey Wilson: Wow.

Dr. Locke: So, it was like I'd won the lottery.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah, really. So, what were your duties at that point with the job?

Dr. Locke: I assisted with the marching band, so I wrote some drill, wrote some musical arrangements, and was at every rehearsal. Assist with the marching band. 00:11:00I conducted the concert band, which was the second... It was wind ensemble and a concert band. I conducted the concert band. I conducted the jazz ensemble, and I taught courses in conducting.

Lacey Wilson: Was that the first time you taught?

Dr. Locke: Yeah. First time I'd ever taught.

Lacey Wilson: How was that?

Dr. Locke: It was fantastic. I mean, I don't think I know... I don't think I had any real idea what I was doing. I mean, I worked real hard at it, but I think I made every mistake a new teacher could make, and teaching conducting came pretty naturally, and I enjoyed it, although the classes were too big. They had just changed their curriculum. Instead of one undergraduate conducting course required, they had surveyed their majors, and the majors said, "We don't get enough conducting. We didn't get enough conducting in our undergrad curriculum," so they had one... It just took one course, which is what I took.

Dr. Locke: So, what would you think the administration would do? You'd think 00:12:00maybe they'd add a course, right?

Lacey Wilson: Yeah, like one course.

Dr. Locke: They went to... They go from one course to two courses.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah, that'd be reasonable.

Dr. Locke: That would be... Yeah, they went from one course to six required courses.

Lacey Wilson: Wow.

Dr. Locke: Six semesters of conducting, worth one credit each. So now, it's like they had this insatiable demand, because freshmen, both semesters, sophomores, and juniors, all both semesters, had to take conducting. So, I taught four sections of it. It was like 8:00 AM, Tuesday Thursday at 8:00. Or Tuesday Thursday at 8:00, at 9:00, at 10:00, and at 11:00 AM, and I had 20 kids in each class, so it was sort of no win. I mean, I learned how to teach conducting like an Army cook learns to make beef stew for a thousand people.

Lacey Wilson: Just all at once.

Dr. Locke: Yeah, so it was baptism by fire, but... Yeah. So, I made lots of mistakes, but I think I worked hard enough that I think I was not horrible at 00:13:00it, at least. But I think I was probably horrible compared to what I know how to do now, I'd say.

Lacey Wilson: Did you like teaching?

Dr. Locke: Oh, I loved it. Yeah. I loved everything about it.

Lacey Wilson: Like initially?

Dr. Locke: Oh yes. Oh my gosh. Yeah, absolutely.

Lacey Wilson: And how was it, because you hadn't... You had been in the marching band previously, so how was the difference to like-

Dr. Locke: Well, you know, it was funny. I marched three years, and my senior year, the marching band had one Master's student grad assistant, and that wasn't enough, because the band was like 240 students in. Now, it's like 400 students. But it was about 220 or 40 students. And so, I talked Don Wilcox, and he didn't really want to do this at first. I talked him into... I said, "Really?" I said, "You don't have enough help doing this. I'd love to be an undergrad assistant 00:14:00with the marching band." This is for my senior year.

Dr. Locke: And he said, "Oh, you're too valuable as a player. You're the section leader, and you're the best trombone player, and I really want you to play." And I said... But I didn't... I stuck with it, and I pestered him, and I said, "You know, trust me. I can be more help to you and to the band if I'm like a student assistant." And so, begrudgingly he finally said, "Okay." And so, I just sort of worked... It was sort of my general M.O. through college was to volunteer for things. I mean, I volunteered a number of times to conduct the pep band, to take the load off of him. And so I conducted the basketball pep band some as a senior, and I assisted with the marching band.

Dr. Locke: I wrote some drill, I wrote some arrangements, and he saw that I really could be more help. So, about half way through the year, half way through the fall semester, he said, "You know, I didn't want... I wanted you to march 00:15:00and play, and I didn't want you to do this, but I'm sure glad you talked me into it, because you've been a huge help with all these things that we do." So, that was a lot of fun, and I think that year we went to a bowl game, which is a bunch more work, and motel rooms, and a plane, and the music, and more drill to write, and all that.

Dr. Locke: And then the next year, I was the grad assistant, so that was great, too. I had... I was in the right place at the right time. Wonderful teacher, who gave me opportunities to do things, and kind of, I think for me now, during my time, particularly with grad students, I really try to give them lots and lots of opportunities to do something on their own. It's not too unusual for me, when 00:16:00somebody says... I'll say, "Well, this is what you need to do. This is your baby. You got to do it. You got to," they say, "Well, how do I this, this?" I said, "That's for you to figure out. You just figure this out. You're a smart person, so figure it out and do it. Let me know how it comes out. And if you need my help, okay, but you're as capable of doing this as I am, so go to it."

Lacey Wilson: So, you got... You're 22 and you just got this new position.

Dr. Locke: Yeah, I was on the faculty one year, and I... Very, very fortunate that a job opened up. They advertised for a job, which was Director of Bands, and they wanted somebody who had marching band experience, and I certainly had that. It was Director of Bands, and here's the odd part that really-

Lacey Wilson: Go ahead.

Dr. Locke: It'll pick up. I'll just wait one second. Sorry.

Lacey Wilson: It's okay.

Dr. Locke: So, it was... The job opened up at Southeast Missouri State University, and they wanted director of bands, and trombone teacher, and so the good news there was that, well that eliminates 85% of the people who might apply. So, instead of getting this really big pool of applicants, they're going to get the 15% of the band world population that also plays and teaches trombone. And then even maybe, probably it's even less than that. It's probably more like 90% would be eliminated, because maybe somebody who played trombone 00:18:00didn't play it anymore, was too old to really play an audition for the job, and win it, so... But I still played trombone, and so I thought, "Wow, this is just perfect for me."

Dr. Locke: And then I applied, they interviewed me, and they hired me, so it was great. And so there I was, I was 23, and I was a Director of Bands. This school was probably... Oh, they had about 11,000 students or something like that.

Lacey Wilson: What was the name of the school?

Dr. Locke: Southeast Missouri State University. It was in the town of Cape Girardeau, on the Mississippi River, about 100 miles south of Saint Louis. There I did the marching band, I conducted the wind ensemble, I conducted the concert band. I taught a couple of music ed classes, one in each semester. I had about eight or nine trombone majors to teach, and I ran the summer music camp. I 00:19:00inherited the summer music camp. It was in it's maybe 20th year, 19th or 20th year, and my predecessor had started it, and it was gigantic. Just absolutely gigantic. It was kind of the... It was a very low budget operation. They charged very little. The university gave them the use of the dorms for free. They gave them the food and the dining hall at the wholesale cost of the food.

Dr. Locke: The President loved having these students on campus, and he was good buddies with the former band director, and so they kind of had a sweetheart deal. The cost, it was 1976. You could go to camp there for $30. $30 for a week, like six days, five nights, in an air conditioned dorm, all your meals, instruction, the whole bit. $30. You could hardly keep your kid at home for $30.

Lacey Wilson: Absolutely not. That's amazing.

Dr. Locke: It was dirt cheap, and so it was huge. They had like... The biggest year we had, we had almost 2,400 students in three one week camps.

Lacey Wilson: How old were the kids?

Dr. Locke: They ranged from sixth grade to twelfth grade. It was band, choir, orchestra, and twirlers.

Lacey Wilson: Twirlers, yeah.

Dr. Locke: So, yes, I was the head of a camp that had twirlers.

Lacey Wilson: Had you taught twirlers before?

Dr. Locke: No, I never taught twirlers. We had twirlers in the marching band back in those days, so it made a little bit of sense, I guess. I did that, and-

Lacey Wilson: Was that your first time running a camp?

Dr. Locke: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And the guy who ran it, the guy who retired, who had run it for... Started it and run it for 20 years, just sort of really ran it out of his back pocket. There really weren't any file cabinets full of details 00:21:00about what to do. This was before people had computers. Everything was a typewriter and a file folder, and he kept saying... So, it came time to print the brochures about January. He said, "Oh, take last year's brochure and cross out 1976, and write in 1977, and put your name on it instead of my name, and take it over to the print shop, and they'll know how many to do."

Dr. Locke: And so I did that, and then printed the application forms. Pretty much the same, cross out 76 and put 1977. And I said, "Well, what about hiring all these people?" Because this was a huge camp. They had 80 or 90 employees. He said, "Oh, I'll come over, we'll sit down, we'll talk about it." And so, I got the mailing out, and sure enough the forms started coming in, and he had told me just enough to know what to do with that. There was a young lady hired to process the forms.

Dr. Locke: We were kind of going along, but I really had no idea. There was no book, there wasn't anything with schedules, or what to do. It was just... I was 00:22:00just flying blind. I said, "Mr. Mason, we have got to get together." He said, "Okay, well," it was Spring Break. He said, "I'm going to see my daughter in Saint Louis for this next few days. As soon as I come back, we'll get together." Well, he went to Saint Louis, and he had a heart attack and died.

Lacey Wilson: Oh, wow.

Dr. Locke: Yeah. And so, here I was running my first ever music camp, and the crazy part was I managed to find enough info that I could call the people who worked before and say, "Yes, please come work." And all of them... He was probably 68 or something when he retired, and all the people who worked at the camp were between 60 and 90 years old. They were like all his buddies, and cronies, and former students, and people from around. A lot of them were retired, and they brought their wives, like a retired band director and his wife 00:23:00would come, and the retired band director would do a band, and live in the dorm, and chaperone a floor, and his wife, who might be 75 years old, moved into the dorm for the women, and chaperoned these girls in the dorm.

Dr. Locke: So, here I was. I was 23, and these people were old enough to be my grandparents, and they ran the whole thing. And oddly enough, the good part was they all knew how to do it.

Lacey Wilson: Good.

Dr. Locke: But I didn't, and so every time I'd say, "Well, what do we do here?" "Oh, don't worry. We'll take care of it." And if I had an... And I had ideas, "Well, this doesn't make any real sense to me." If I tried to change anything, it was like, "Well, this is not the way Mr. Mason did it, so you better just watch yourself there, Buster." So, it was an insane baptism by fire, because I had no idea what I was doing, yet I was in charge of the whole thing, and all of them thought they knew what they were doing, and so they just did it.

Dr. Locke: I began to get organized with that, and we did better in the next couple years, but I made lots of dumb mistakes and learned everything the hard way doing that camp.

Lacey Wilson: Did you make any changes throughout?

Dr. Locke: Oh yeah. I made all kinds of changes. And they were all resisted to the max by everybody. But, oddly enough, doing that camp got me the job at UNCG.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah, that makes sense.

Dr. Locke: Because the fellow who was Dean, UNCG had never had a camp, and the fellow who was dean, fellow named Robert Blocker, understood that the problem with the School of Music in 1982, when I came, was that they were a real ivory tower. I mean, he's told me as much in my interview. He said, "This place is an ivory tower. They think they don't have to recruit. They think they have a good faculty and people will just come here," and the band had never ever gone 00:25:00anywhere, played... Never set foot out of town to play a concert. They never brought students onto campus for any events or anything, and he said, "I really think this place needs to start a music camp."

Dr. Locke: And he said, "That's what really appealed to me about your file." I mean, I had my doctorate from Illinois then. "That's what appealed to me about your file was that you've got this music camp experience, and if I hire you, I'm going to ask you... I mean, it's not really part of the job, but I'm going to ask you to start a music camp. Would you be willing to do it?" And I said, "Sure, I'd be absolutely willing to do it."

Dr. Locke: So, they were going to interview three people, and they interviewed me first, and then they just said... They offered me the job and I took it.

Lacey Wilson: Oh, wow. That's impressive.

Dr. Locke: Yeah. So, they just said, "Oh, this is our guy. We want him, so there it is. We're going to do it." That's end of story. It made some people on the search committee mad. It was like, "Well, what about these other people?" "Nope, nope. Forget it. Tell them they're not coming."

Lacey Wilson: Wow. They just hired you off the bat. That's amazing.

Dr. Locke: They did. Yeah. Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: So, we're going to backtrack a bit, back to Missouri. We need to get to you getting the doctorate.

Dr. Locke: Okay. Yeah. Well, at Missouri, I went there with a Master's degree, and their policy was you have... If you're hired with a Master's degree, you have five years to complete a doctorate. And if you don't complete a doctorate, see you later. It's like you can not be tenured here without a doctorate, and so... In fact, you can't even be retained, so if you don't have a doctorate when you're hired, you got five years. So, I taught four years, and I got a leave of absence. I had applied three places. I applied at Eastman, Michigan, and University of Illinois.

Dr. Locke: And the University of Illinois rolled the red carpet out for me. I went up there for a visit, and they were very cordial, and very interested in 00:27:00me, because I was a young guy and I was already teaching in college, and so I got an assistantship, and it was... And that's where I went. I got mixed vibes from the other two places, and I felt super welcome at Illinois, so I went there, and I did a year, or almost through the first year, and I had a one year leave. And most places takes about three years to get the doctorate. I went summer, fall, spring, summer, fall, spring, and I finished.

Dr. Locke: And I really... I petitioned my way through. Every single semester, I did a petition to the grad school, for permission to take more hours than one was supposed to take if one had an assistantship or a fellowship. The first year I used the excuse, "Well, I have a one year leave from my job. I've got to make 00:28:00hay while the sun shines. I got to get all the credits I can get, because I'm going to have to go back." And so rather than taking about 12 hours, I was taking 16 or 18 hours and an assistantship.

Dr. Locke: And so the next semester was, they would say, "Well, this is just too much. This is too much." I'd say, "Well, look. How'd I do last semester?" "Well, you took 18 hours and you made all A's." I said, "Bingo." I said, "Let me do it again." And it was funny, it was a little game I played. Every time I applied, I would get a letter that said, "This is denied. Drop some hours." And then I'd rewrite it, and just change some words around, and come up with some new rather lame angle about why I should get to take more hours, and send it in again, and the second time it always got approved. And I was literally on a first name basis with this lady who was sort of the troll of the graduate school at 00:29:00Illinois, and I would go to her, and the second year she was reading it. She said, "Well, what about your one year leave?"

Dr. Locke: I said, "Well, I resigned my job. I'm here to finish." And I did. I shouldn't have. It was dumb in hindsight, but I thought, okay, I asked for a second year leave and they said no. They said, "You either have to come back, or you got to resign, because we don't want you to be gone for two years, and have two interim band directors, and then you come back," so I just said, "Okay, I'll resign," and stay and finish, and just roll the dice that I get another job, and so I stayed and finished, and then I had about three schools I think I could have won a job, that wanted to interview me, but after I came here, this was the first interview I had and I liked it, and they offered it, and so I said, "Well, 00:30:00bird in the hand's worth two others in the bush."

Dr. Locke: The other one was University of South Florida, which is in Tampa. The other one was University of Northern Iowa, and so then I came here, armed with a doctorate, and I've been here ever since.

Lacey Wilson: What did you think when you first came here? First time in North Carolina?

Dr. Locke: No. I mean, I had driven through it. I'd driven through North Carolina as a kid a couple times with my brother, on the way to Myrtle Beach. But I never really spent any time here. I'll tell you exactly what I thought. It was March, about March the 20th, and in Urbana, Illinois, where I was living, there was still mountains of dirty snow piled up all along my driveway and in the street, and it just had this black grittiness about it that it just... We'd 00:31:00had just the most severe... The second winter there was just the most severe weather I've ever had, and we had actual temps, not chill factors, but actual temps that were like 28 below.

Lacey Wilson: Oh, wow.

Dr. Locke: And a stiff wind, and the chill factor was like 65 degrees below, and all the pipes in our house froze. We had snow that was drifted up to be just crazy depths, and it was just a brutal winter, and there was still snow around, and I came down here. Flew into Greensboro, and got picked up, and at the old airport, not the new airport, and we were driving in on Friendly Avenue, and this guy's windows were down, and you know, if you've been here... Have you been in Greensboro in the spring? You've not been here in the spring.

Lacey Wilson: I visited in the spring.

Dr. Locke: And the dogwood trees were just in full bloom, and I swear, I mean it was like 70 degrees, and these dogwood trees were blooming, and the birds were 00:32:00singing, and I called my wife. Of course, nobody had cell phones then, but I called her from the motel and I said, "This place is just a paradise compared to Urbana, Illinois." I said, "It's just like I've gone to heaven down here. The trees are green, the city is very attractive." I said, "I don't know if they're going to hire me, but this sure is a beautiful place," so that was exactly what I thought.

Dr. Locke: So, I conducted the band. I guest conducted the band. I taught a trombone lesson. I interviewed with everybody. In those days, you even interviewed with the Provost.

Lacey Wilson: Who was the Provost then?

Dr. Locke: Stanley something or other. Stanley... I forget. He was from way back, and he'd been there a long time, but that was his last year. I think by the next year he was gone, or I'm pretty sure he was on his way out then. But 00:33:00you know, it was... I had a fine interview, and a good time, and I literally got back home, they called me up and offered me the job.

Lacey Wilson: And you moved down here?

Dr. Locke: Yeah. We moved at the beginning of the summer. I think we came down here in end of May, early June, and we came and looked for houses, and bought a house, and moved down, and went to work in August.

Lacey Wilson: What classes did you teach first off?

Dr. Locke: Well, I directed, I conducted the wind ensemble, which is a class. I conducted the concert band. I think I taught a conducting class. Before long, I 00:34:00was teaching a band literature class. And started the music camp. I think that was about it.

Lacey Wilson: What had you started in music camp at that point?

Dr. Locke: Pardon?

Lacey Wilson: What had you started in the music camp at that point?

Dr. Locke: Well-

Lacey Wilson: Because it hadn't existed here.

Dr. Locke: No, it hadn't. Well, you know, about five years before that, they tried a camp for a couple of summers, and it crashed and burned. The enrollment was not good. It didn't work well at all, and so when this Dean, who was only in his second year, said, "Well, John Locke's going to start a music camp," the number of the people in faculty who were around when the previous camp... They just sort of laughed. It was like, "Sure. Yeah. Go ahead. Knock yourself out, John, but just so you'll know, this isn't going to work. Just say I didn't tell you so, so yeah, go ahead. Sure. Knock yourself out, but it doesn't have a 00:35:00prayer. We tried this. It crashed. You're not going to make it work."

Dr. Locke: So, the Dean and I went to see the person in housing to talk about dorm space, because there really weren't any camps then. There weren't any camps at UNCG in the summer, and the dorms were just kind of sitting there, and they almost didn't know what to do, so it was like, "I want to have a camp, and I'm going to need... If this really takes off, I'm going to need the entire dorm, like Reynolds dorm." They're like, "You're going to need the whole thing?"

Dr. Locke: "Yeah, well, I hope." And so, and I did. We started a jazz camp for a week, and then the other week was like concert band, and choir, and orchestra, and sure enough in the big week, we had about 300 people, or 310 people filled up a dorm. I think we had 351 the very first year, which was a huge triumph, 00:36:00starting from nothing. And the second year, we had 760, and the third year, we had 965, and now we've got over 1,900 every summer, so... You know, it went well right off the bat, and I think I knew how to advertise. However, I went to the lady who was the Dean's Assistant, and sort of ran everything in the school, her name was Marie Teague and I said, "Well, here's my brochure Marie, and I'm going to need to print 35,000 brochures."

Dr. Locke: And she said, "No. John, you don't mean 35,000. You must mean 3,500." I said, "Marie, no. I mean 35,000," and she was a chain smoker. She just picked up this cigarette and just started... You could just see the wheels going like, "This is going to cost real money, are you crazy, kid? What are you talking about?" And she says, "Well, how are you going to pay for them?" I said, "I 00:37:00don't know."

Dr. Locke: So, we went to the... The Music School didn't have any real money, we went to the Musical Arts Guild, which was like a town and gown fundraising group, and they loaned us the money. I think it was about... I don't know what it was. $2,500 or something, and then another $1,500 for the postage. They loaned money to the camp to start this up. And fortunately, we paid them back, but it was... The funny part was once the money started rolling in, and about once a week, I'd go to Marie Teague and hand her a stack of 40 checks that were like the deposits, and then 40 checks that were the final payments. I think the camp was maybe $120 in those.

Dr. Locke: Then it was like, well, her eyes lit up. She'd say, "Oh yeah, okay, 00:38:00money." She loved money, so when we started making money, and we could pay all the bills, then suddenly I went from being, "You don't mean 35,000, you mean 3,500." Suddenly I sort of... I was sort of the golden child. It was like, "This guy brings me stacks of checks every week. Give him anything he wants."

Lacey Wilson: Where were you taking the flyers?

Dr. Locke: Well, we mail. I didn't take them. We mailed them. We mailed packets of them to the schools, so like every state, every high school and middle school, you add all those up, that's about 1,000 schools in this state. Each one of them got a packet that had about 25 or 30 brochures in it, and the idea was you'd pass these out to your band kids who were interested. And I remember my Spring Break that year, I went to every... I think Guilford County had maybe 13 high schools, counting the four city high schools. There were two systems then, 00:39:00there was a city and a county system. Now they're all merged.

Dr. Locke: It was like Page, Grimsley, Smith and Dudley were the four Greensboro City high schools, and then the donut itself were southeast, northeast, northwest, southern, northern, all those... Well, there wasn't a northern then, were all those other schools.

Lacey Wilson: Southwest.

Dr. Locke: Yeah. Southwest. All those people. So, I went to all those schools, every one I could get to, high school and middle school bands, and rather than pass out brochures, I passed out little three by five cards, like under your recorder, and had them write down. And they kept saying, "Well, why don't you just hand out the brochures, John?" I said, "No, that's not the way it works," so I knew enough to get the kid to write down their name and address, and we came back and we mailed a brochure, because if you just hand out a brochure... I learned a long time ago, if you just hand out a brochure to a kid in the high school band or junior high band, the chance of it getting home and in the hands 00:40:00of mom and dad is about one in 20.

Dr. Locke: Because it's going to stay in the horn case, going to be in the bottom of a messy locker, until they clear it out at the end of the school year. It's like, "Oh, there's that camp brochure," so I mailed them, because you really... With camp, you're actually making the sale, not to the kid, but to the parent. And if the parent doesn't buy in, because they're going to have to pay the money, and say, "Okay, we're not going to go to the beach this week, because Billy's going to music camp," then you don't have a sale. So, we mailed brochures, and I think that helped.

Dr. Locke: But you know, the people here in town... A very wonderful, long time friend of mine, he retired 15 or 20 years ago, but he was the high school band director at Page High School. His name was Charles Murph, and I went to Charles Murph, because I knew he was an influential guy in town, and I said, "Charles, 00:41:00we're going to start a music camp." "I thought they tried that." "Yeah, they did, and it didn't work out so well." "No, it was awful. It went out of business right away." And I said, "Well, I'm going to start a music camp, and ... these two weeks, and we're going to charge $120."

Dr. Locke: He said, "John," he says, "You know, I like you John. I think you're a nice guy. But I'm just going to tell you, it's never going to work. You just forget it. It's never going to work." And so, he worked at the camp for us. He did a band the very first year, and he worked at the camp for 25 years, anyway, and so, I love to tell that story in his presence, and kind of put my arm around him and say, "Remember when you said this was never going to work?" I said, "This is the biggest camp in America, Charles." He says, "I know." And then he tries to say, "I never said that." He said, "I said I don't think it's going to work." I said, "No, you said it's never going to work."

Dr. Locke: So, we kind of laugh about that periodically.

Lacey Wilson: Sure. So, what was the pitch in the brochure? Because they had had one like five years ago?

Dr. Locke: Yes.

Lacey Wilson: And so, how did you... How was it different?

Dr. Locke: You know, I think... I don't know. I never saw their brochure. Well, maybe I did see it, but I saw it only later and after the fact. I don't know. Our brochure was very modest. It was just black ink on yellow paper, and now we have a nice splashy color brochure. Of course we got a nice website now, too, but I don't know, and I had to use pictures. I mostly used pictures that I'd brought with me from Southeast Missouri State, little black and white pictures that were about this big in the brochure.

Dr. Locke: But I don't really know exactly what the pitch was.

Lacey Wilson: Because if they had one like that long ago, that recently-

Dr. Locke: Yeah, you'd think there would still be a stigma. But I don't remember anybody complaining, so maybe they'd forgotten.

Lacey Wilson: Maybe.

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: What was your pitch to the kids, though? Because they were... It's new to them. There's never been a camp here, want to get them to tell their parents to come here.

Dr. Locke: Well, you know, I think the pitch is if you like music, then this is something you're going to really enjoy. If you like playing your instrument, or singing in the choir, you're going to enjoy coming here to do it, and we'll have really good teachers, and there's going to be great music, and we'll have some fun activities, and we showed movies a couple of nights, or one night in those days, and had a party, and had a dance. I've never really thought it was particularly hard to sell it, and now, even though we have 1,900 students, we've probably got another 500 or 600 kids that are on the waiting list that didn't 00:44:00get in. Which is nice, because then when somebody bails out, we can replace them instantly.

Dr. Locke: You know, music's not hard to sell. Music... People who do it and like it at all, many of them like me, they just love it. I would travel any distance, and pay any price that my mother could afford to go do something when I was growing up.

Lacey Wilson: So, how did you recruit for the camp in the beginning?

Dr. Locke: Well, I think the main thing that made it work was going around to all those schools, and mailing the brochures, because it's... There are two leaps of faith when you mail a packet of brochures to a band director. First, that they're going to open the packet. Second, they're going to pass them out, and third, that the kids are going to take them home and give them to mom or dad. And so that's why you got to print so many, because not many of them are going to get through to mom and dad.

Dr. Locke: So, over time, then the other huge, really important step, for a number of years... We don't do this anymore, because the businesses don't want to do it.

Dr. Locke: Come in. Hey. Oh, you turkey. Make it quick. There's a tape recorder running and I'm being interviewed.

Steve: Oh. Oh, I'd love one of these, though.

Dr. Locke: My God, Steve. Is that enough for you? Okay. You know, I could deliver if you phone me.

Dr. Locke: One thing we did was we hooked up with three music stores in the state. Three music companies. None of them are in business anymore. One was Pearson Music, one was Duncan Music, based in Winston, and one was... And then 00:46:00we added McFadyen Music. Well, between these three businesses, there weren't three music stores, but there were about 15 music stores, because Duncan had three stores, and Pearson had about five, and McFadyen's had four or five stores in various cities. And they pretty much had all of the band instrument business. The rent to own plan when you're in sixth grade, you get a clarinet, your parents pay $25 a month or whatever.

Dr. Locke: Well, we got them to give us their mailing list, and it was everybody who was currently on the rent to own plan, or everybody who'd bought a better instrument, and was still making payments on it. And so, they printed mailing labels, and we put a mailing label on a brochure, but you add all those up, that was like 20 or 25,000 students. Pretty much in this state and Virginia, and so 00:47:00we went... So, that mail went right to the home, and so when you had a dad who was like, "You know, junior is... I'm paying $25 a month for him to rent this trumpet, his band isn't very good, maybe we'll send him to music camp. Maybe they can teach him something."

Lacey Wilson: Sure.

Dr. Locke: You know what I mean? So, the direct mail in those days to the parents, to the kids and to the parents could see it, that paid off hugely in our growth. I know it did. But it's funny now, and this is just kind of like the... I don't know what the climate you'd call it, it's almost like the element of privacy in a transaction, that those music stores first got taken over by a big conglomerate out of Texas, and once that happened, these people said, "Well, look John. When somebody rents an instrument from us, in the agreement that they sign, or that we tell them in this agreement we will absolutely not ever sell 00:48:00their name or their address to anybody."

Dr. Locke: I said, "Well, I don't want to buy it. I want you to give it to me." They said, "No, we can't. Because it's kind of like... It's sort of like this worry over privacy trumped everything." You know, and I tried to... And these other, these old guys that owned these other music stores, they understood, okay, the music store is selling instruments and hoping they'll pay for them eventually, and maybe buy a better instrument, and become a music consumer, and come back and buy music at their store to play on their instrument or whatever. That they and we, in UNCG School of Music, were really in the same business. And the same business is having people do music, and do it better, and progress, and all that.

Dr. Locke: So, it was like, "Yeah, I'm happy for you to offer the camp to these students." I mean, I wasn't trying to swindle anybody. It was just like, "Here's 00:49:00a brochure. Your kid's already playing trumpet, how about coming to camp?" So, it seemed like a no brainer to me, but boy, once sort of corporate America got involved, it's like, "Oh no, we've taken a blood oath here that no one will ever... You've rented your flute from us. No one's ever going to get your address, and solicit you for anything." Whether it's... I don't know what else you'd solicit somebody who's buying a trumpet, unless... I don't... You're not going to try and sell them life insurance. But whatever.

Dr. Locke: So, that ended, but we were substantial, and we had a following enough by then that didn't seem to matter, but it sure was important there for a while.

Lacey Wilson: And so how did you get teachers for the camp in the beginning?

Dr. Locke: Well-

Lacey Wilson: Was it all high school teachers?

Dr. Locke: High school and middle school teachers, and then a whole bunch of college students, who were the chaperones, and the rehearsal assistants, and I'd met enough people. I asked around, who were the good teachers, and what could 00:50:00they do, and we just... I think I was able to hire good people, and it worked out fine. Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah. How do you think the camp has changed throughout the years?

Dr. Locke: It's gotten bigger.

Lacey Wilson: Sure. Biggest in the country.

Dr. Locke: It is. I think what we do now, versus what we did the first four, five, or six years, I think we're just much better at it. We've refined... I think we try to improve a little bit on something, or a couple of somethings every year. We try to have a hassle free experience. I think we... I really think part of what sets us apart is we really and truly sweat the details. I 00:51:00mean, when somebody comes to the parking deck, and we do registration at the far end of this parking deck right out here. And they've got a tuba in their car, well, we have people whose job it is to take the tuba off their hands, put it into a couple of big vans, and deliver it to the Elliott Center, to the room where the kid's going to be, so they don't have to carry it on a 95 degree day to the dorm room, and then have some little tyke with this gigantic tuba, who's got to lug it across campus.

Dr. Locke: So, I think we... The whole check-in process to the dorms, I think we have that down to a science, and we got people on the floor that are living on that. We got one person there who's sort of the ombudsman for the camp, who meets the parents and the kids, and reassures them that yes, we'll look after them, and that we'll get them where they need to be, and every kid's got this little ID bracelet on that's got their name, and instrument, and when their private lesson is, and what group they're in, and where that group meets. So, I 00:52:00don't know, I think we... I just think we really sweat the details more than most, and we've got a lot of people who return, who know what they're doing and we're not reinventing the wheel every year.

Lacey Wilson: Sure. So, what kind of... Does the camp work as a recruitment for UNCG?

Dr. Locke: Oh, absolutely. My gosh. Yes. Hugely important. Yeah, we keep the names, and addresses, and we solicit them. Particularly... We solicit them for all kinds of events. The Carolina Band Festival, we mail to them and email to them. The Southeast Honors String Festival. Double Reed Day, the Flute Festival and Percussion Festival, the Trombone Festival, all those names of those kids that we have, they become... We try to build a relationship with them, get them to come back for this, that, or the other, but you know, I think we recruit even 00:53:00more for the whole university than we do for music majors.

Dr. Locke: We get music majors out of camp, no question, but I think... and I think that our Chancellor, and our Provost, and our Deans have taken notice that I take them around to the final concerts, particularly the Chancellor, when the Chancellor's available, and they'll make a little pitch. It's like, "We're just so happy you're here." Because you know, in a given evening, they're going to see... If they attend all five concert sites, they're going to see, they're going to interact with, interface with like 3,000 parents and students. And brothers and sisters and all that, and so they give the pitch that, "Well, yes we have terrific programs in the summer here in music, and PS, we also have 100 different majors to choose from, and we've got programs in business, and in education, and in nursing, and so we're glad you're here, and don't be a stranger, and when you become college age, put us on the list and come visit us."

Dr. Locke: You know, because... And I think, and I know that... I mean, the admissions people say, "Oh, we run into people all over the place, not just in North Carolina or Virginia, and New Jersey, and Maryland, when we're doing college fairs, that have come to camp, and say, "Oh yeah, we know UNCG, we came to music camp there." So you know, UNCG may not offer what every single kid wants, but there are a lot of students out there that get introduced by coming to camp, and then they'll come back. Absolutely.

Lacey Wilson: So, you want to start on this tribute to John Philip Sousa?

Dr. Locke: Okay, yeah. Sure.

Lacey Wilson: How did that get started?

Dr. Locke: Well, you know, I've always been a huge fan. John Philip Sousa is a 00:55:00gigantic person in the band world. Conductor of the Marine Band, then left the Marine Band to start his own band, and a touring professional band. Wrote all those marches. Wrote lots of other pieces. Just a gigantic icon in my business, and so I had heard, I had been to a couple of concerts that were tribute to Sousa concerts, and they were being done around the country by various people, and I thought, "Well, we just... At some point I've really got to do this."

Dr. Locke: And I initially thought I was going to hire a guy. He was the former band director at Yale, who was very knowledgeable, and he kind of was a Sousa impersonator, I guess you'd say, and went around and conducted bands, and had his own kind of professional ensemble called The New Sousa Band, that met every 00:56:00now and then and would do a little concert tour. And I talked to him about coming, but he had left Yale, and he was doing this really for a living, and so he said, and when he did... He did this ironically with orchestras, and he charged a lot of money. Had a New York agent and all that.

Dr. Locke: And I said, "Well, you know, I'd like you to come do this. We'll figure out the program, I'll get them ready, and then you'll come in, and you'll be Sousa, and you'll conduct the band." He said, "Well, I guess I," he said... And this was like 1989. Long time ago. 27 years ago. He said, "Okay, well if that's what you want, then I can work around my agent." He says, "I'll cut my fee to the bone." He says, "I'll do it for $8,000."

Lacey Wilson: Wow.

Dr. Locke: And I thought, this is $8,000 in 1989. That would be like $22 or $23 00:57:00or $24,000 now.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah, it's like a nice car.

Dr. Locke: Yes. And so, I said, "Wow, Keith. I don't have anything like that kind of money. I don't have any money to spend on this, really." You know, I thought maybe if he'd said $1,000 or something, I might have been able to swing it, but, so I said, "Well, thanks very much, but it isn't going to happen." So, then I said, "Well, if I'm going to do this, I'm going to have to do it myself," so went down to Eastern Costume and found a Sousa uniform coat that I could get them to help me with, and I just did it myself. And I thought, "Wow, this was great."

Dr. Locke: People ate it up. This was back before the renovation in the auditorium, back when it was Aycock Auditorium, and held about 2,300 people, and we had standing room only. We turned people away, and we didn't do that much advertising, so it really hit a nerve, and boy after that, it really took off. 00:58:00And we've done it seven different times now. Usually for a couple nights, one time for three nights, but people over the years really, really liked it. People literally stop me on the street and says, "Aren't you the UNCG... Weren't you the one that did the," yes, I did Sousa. And, "When you going to do it again? We're ready to come back."

Lacey Wilson: When was the last time you did it?

Dr. Locke: We did it this fall. We did it a couple months ago.

Lacey Wilson: Couple months ago?

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: Standing room only?

Dr. Locke: No, but we had two nights, and we had about three fourths filled on both nights.

Lacey Wilson: Wow.

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah. That's huge.

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: And students in the band? Playing for the Sousa?

Dr. Locke: Yeah. We own uniforms now. Those were like-

Lacey Wilson: Rented?

Dr. Locke: ... somebody's old, discarded high school uniforms. But we've got some pretty authentic looking Sousa uniforms now that we use, so it was a biggie.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah. So, we're going to jump ahead to administration and professors here. So, did you come in under Chancellor Moran?

Dr. Locke: I did.

Lacey Wilson: Yeah, how was... What'd you think of Moran?

Dr. Locke: I liked Bill Moran a lot. I saw him just a couple nights ago at a cello recital here. I hadn't seen him in a good while. Yes, I liked Bill Moran a lot. He was... When I ran into growing pains, and issues with the music camp, and was beating my head against the wall with continuing education, who thought they should be running the music camp, the Office of Continuing Education, and the Dean who was there then, in Continuing Education, who thought he really should take over the camp and run it for us, and issues with the health service 01:00:00charging us outrageous fees, and then always being closed, and I went to him. He was very sympathetic. I mean, accord of a wit's end I finally got an appointment with him. He was very sympathetic and was helpful to me.

Dr. Locke: And I know, we always... The band always played at commencement, and he was always very complimentary of the band, and so I liked him a lot. Really... There weren't really any of our Chancellors I didn't like. I think I liked all of them, and got along pretty well with all of them. Got to know them some, because of commencement, because of music camp, and other things I did, so yeah, I got along with all of them.

Lacey Wilson: You liked all of them? Okay, well we'll just move around to them as we go. So, it's Sullivan was after that.

Dr. Locke: Yeah. No, I thought... Man, I thought she was very passionate about this place, and was... I wound up being... I did it two years, in fact. I was the... There was probably five years in between, but I was the chair of the State Employees' Combined Campaign, the annual giving thing for... It's sort of like the United Way, but expanded to hundreds of agencies around the state, and I was the chair, the coordinator and the chair of that twice, and I was on the committee for a while, and I became chair, and I ran it. And we made record amounts of money in the two years that I ran it. Almost $300,000, and right now they're just barely, barely hoping yet to get to $200,000.

Lacey Wilson: Wow.

Dr. Locke: Okay, and this was like 10 years ago, $300,000, so I wish I could tell them what they're doing wrong now, but I don't think anybody wants to hear it. But I know exactly how they're messing it up, and why they're not raising the money they used to. But she was very... Even about that, she was really competitive, and she wanted UNCG to look better than all the other 15 campuses in the UNC system. Because to her, it was like a competition. It was like the percentage of faculty and staff that contribute something, and then the dollar amount from that many people. She wanted all those percentages to be the best, so she could sort of have bragging rights about it.

Dr. Locke: But she was very, she was competitive about such things. And let's see, who was after her?

Lacey Wilson: Brady.

Dr. Locke: Yeah, you know, I actually... Chancellor Brady paid more attention to 01:03:00the camp, and seemed the most genuinely interested in it, and came and visited the concerts, and spoke, than any other chancellor. We had a 30th anniversary thing for the camp, which she came to, and the provost came in too, and she was very, very supportive of camp, and of me doing it. And I got along with her fine. I know she sort of left under not the greatest circumstances, but I got along with her great.

Lacey Wilson: And our current chancellor.

Dr. Locke: I get along with him fine. He did come... You know, he's just been here a year, a year and a half, I guess.

Lacey Wilson: Something like that.

Dr. Locke: And last summer, he came to one of the weeks of camp, and went around 01:04:00with me, and spoke to all the crowds. And I haven't had very much dealing with him, but that, the part with the camp was all just fine. He was very cordial, and seemed interested in what was going on with that. I think he's very, very gregarious and outgoing, and highly skilled personally and socially. Whatever else he's got plans for, I wish him the best. I haven't really seen... He hasn't been here long enough to really have a particular track record, or any particular list of things that he's going to put his name on as this was... The 01:05:00reason this is happening is because of me.

Dr. Locke: But I think he will. I think he sure seems to have the... He has some personal gifts, and personality, and kind of a bigger than life kind of personality that I think... I wish him the best. I don't... Can't say I know him all that well, but I know him a little bit from dragging him around the campus for music camp. Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: So, got here in '82.

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: Who was the Head of the music department then?

Dr. Locke: The dean was Robert Blocker. B-L-O-C-K-E-R. And he was only here two years. In his first year, he hired me, and he was here my first year, and then he left. He was from Texas, and he left to become the Dean at Baylor University in Texas, and it... Everybody was very sorry to see him go, because he was very 01:06:00personable. Young guy. I mean, he was our Dean, I think he was 36 or something. I was 30, he was 36. Very young guy. Piano player, and a fine musician. Real personable, and I think he was... I think this Baylor job offered him a much more established school, bigger school, probably a bigger budget, bigger salary, I expect, and he knew... I mean, when I got here, it was just painfully obvious that music was going to need a new facility.

Dr. Locke: And they were in the old building down here, the brown building, the one on the corner, and behind it was a little annex, they had the band and choir rehearsal rooms, and then there were seven more houses around campus. In fact, 01:07:00right here where this building, there were four houses right where this building is, that fronted on Market Street. Four little white frame houses of the kind you see all around this, whatever this is, College Hill, and in one of them... One of them housed all the percussion stuff, like our percussion teacher, and there were timpani in the living room, and marimba in the bedroom, and a drum set in the kitchen. You know what I mean? It was like a percussion house.

Dr. Locke: And there was a house where all the brass faculty had their offices, like the trumpet teacher in one room, the trombone, and the tuba, and the horn, and rooms that had the flute teachers, and theory teachers, and all that, because we'd just totally outgrown those other two buildings.

Lacey Wilson: Wow. Yeah.

Dr. Locke: There were four houses down here. Over there, near, across the street from the art building, where there's a little house. That was a music house. Right where the art building is, there were a couple of music houses.

Lacey Wilson: Music house.

Dr. Locke: We called them the shacks. So-

Lacey Wilson: It's like the brass shack.

Dr. Locke: The brass shack, the woodwind shack, the theory shack. Up the street here, there's a brick building on that street that's closed. It's like a pedestrian walkway. Beyond Nursing, there's kind of this really nice Georgian looking brick house. And music had that for part of the time. There used to be some houses where the... When they bulldozed these houses, right where the parking deck sits, there were about three big old houses, and the music got moved into there.

Dr. Locke: And so, it was like as the university bulldozed something to build a parking lot, they'd take those people and buy another house, and move them into another house. And so, it was pretty bad, because you had your music courses in the music building, but when it's time for your tuba lesson, you had to carry your tuba like three blocks this way to the tuba shack, the brass shack-

Lacey Wilson: Which probably wasn't conducive to the sound of music.

Dr. Locke: It wasn't good. It was just... We were just all splintered up all 01:09:00over the place. And I think probably that's probably why Robert Blocker left in a hurry, because he figured it was going to take forever to get a music building. It did. It took 17 years, but here we are.

Lacey Wilson: Sure. Much nicer building.

Dr. Locke: Yes.

Lacey Wilson: Who was after Blocker?

Dr. Locke: Blocker left, and Bill McIver, who was a voice teacher, was the interim dean for a year. And then we hired a fellow named Art Tollefson, T-O-L-L-E-F-S-O-N, and he was dean. He was also a pianist, and had taught at Northwestern, had been the music school director at University of Arkansas. And he was a very nice guy, and very well educated. He had three degrees from Stanford. Very fine musician. Very excellent pianist. And he was very, very 01:10:00hands off. It took me a while to get used to it, because I'd been here two years and I'd had two Deans, so I was in my third year, I was on my third Dean, and he was not a... He was kind of a big picture kind of thinker, and had some pretty good ideas. He was a nice guy. He was honest. He was forthright.

Dr. Locke: He just hated any kind of controversy, and so he sort of subcontracted all the nitty gritty to his Associate Dean. And the Associate Dean was the one who really had to mix it up with the faculty, you know, to go in and referee the spats, and referee the clash of wills, and what are we going to do about this, and whether it was curriculum, or schedule, or rooms, or planning, 01:11:00or all that. But Art was here long enough to, along with his Associate Dean, Jim Prodan, who I liked a lot, to when we go the bond referendum passed, we had the money to buy the building, and hire the architect, and draw up the plans. He shepherded all that through, so he gets high marks for that. He was a very nice guy.

Lacey Wilson: And then, is he... Who was after-

Dr. Locke: John Deal.

Lacey Wilson: John Deal. Okay.

Dr. Locke: John Deal came in and I thought, "This is going to be a great hire, and it's going to be really good." He had the right... Been at Florida State as an Associate Dean. Like me, he had three degrees in music education, and was an instrumentalist, had been an Assistant Band Director at Bowling Green. His background and my background were very similar, but as time went along, we were like oil and water. I guess we agreed to disagree, but as time went along, I 01:12:00just wound up pretty much being on the opposite side of the table from him on every single thing that he ever did, or planned, or wanted to do. And so, we locked horns on everything. In hindsight, it's almost humorous. Wasn't humorous at the time, but-

Lacey Wilson: What'd you lock horns on?

Dr. Locke: Oh, I think it was one of his main missions was to try and flunk out as many students as possible. So, I always thought kind of as funny as this sounds, he was a little bit like Dean Wormer in the movie Animal House. You remember the whole double secret probation thing?

Lacey Wilson: I do.

Dr. Locke: I think he just like thought up reasons to flunk out students, so he decided that if you were in a theory class and you dropped it once, because you maybe weren't passing, and you signed up again, if you dropped it again, then he 01:13:00would eliminate you as a music major. I called it the terminator policy.

Lacey Wilson: Sure. Yeah.

Dr. Locke: And so, and he decided on audition day, when we bring in these high school students who audition to become a music major, the very first thing we needed to do was give them a theory test. Well, that was sort of intimidating, and scary, and not really important to even know how they were in theory, and so, and he instituted a bonehead theory class that I thought was a huge mistake. I don't know, it's just... Every turn, whatever it was he wanted to do, I'd just smack myself on the forehead and said, "Oh, you got to be kidding me. You don't really want to do that." We pretty much, after a couple years went by, agreed to disagree, or maybe if taken a little further, had no use for... He had no use for me, and I had no use for him, and I didn't attempt to keep that private.

Lacey Wilson: How long was he here?

Dr. Locke: Oh, 10 or 12 years.

Lacey Wilson: Wow.

Dr. Locke: I outlasted him.

Lacey Wilson: Clearly.

Dr. Locke: Then we had an Interim Dean, Sue Stinson, who had been... This was when we had become the School of Music, Theater, and Dance, which I opposed, and she was from... had been a dance chair way back, or several years earlier, and she became interim dean, and she was just there for a year, and I think she did okay. I locked horns with her a couple times on some things related to music camp, and hosting of the CBDNA convention.

Dr. Locke: And then we had a search, and we hired Peter Alexander, whom I get along with great, and I think he's just the best Dean I've ever had. I like him a lot. He's got great ideas, and he's honest, and I think he's done extremely 01:15:00well for the school, now the college, so I get along great with him.

Lacey Wilson: Any other administrators that come to memory?

Dr. Locke: No, not really.

Lacey Wilson: Okay. Let's talk about colleagues you've had, then.

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: Talk to me about some of the colleagues you've had.

Dr. Locke: Well, you know, my longest and dearest friend is our trombone professor. I was on the search committee when he was hired. He came my third year or fourth year. He's been here almost as long as I have. His name's Randy Kohlenberg, and he's an Associate Director with the camp, and he's meant the world to me, and he's just a great teacher, and a wonderful friend. Inside school, outside school, he doesn't live too far from me. I know his wife, she 01:16:00was a faculty member, an Associate Dean for a while of School of Nursing. I know his son real well. We're just really good buddies, and we see the world in a very similar way, and just been an incredibly wonderful, marvelous guy in my life.

Dr. Locke: Jim Prodan, who left here about 10 or 12 years ago, to go be the Music Department Chair at Delaware, was associate... He was our oboe professor, and then Chair of the Department, and then he was Associate Dean, and he was a huge help to me with the music camp in the early days, and always been a wonderful friend, and confidant, and just wonderful colleague. Wonderful guy. I loved him.

Dr. Locke: And Kevin Geraldi, who is our... Came as our Associate Director of 01:17:00Bands 12 years ago, and is now our Director of Orchestras, and Associate Director of Bands, is also an Associate Director of the camp, and he's fantastic colleague, and incredible friend, and has meant the world to me.

Dr. Locke: So, those are my three most... I mean, I've got lots of friends here, but those are my three best, closest people.

Lacey Wilson: Sure. So, what changes do you think you've noticed at UNCG since your time here?

Dr. Locke: Well, UNCG's gotten bigger. Well, we've built a lot of stuff. We've really built a lot of buildings. I think I'd rather talk about what hasn't changed.

Lacey Wilson: Okay. What hasn't changed?

Dr. Locke: Okay. Two things, two really huge things, and neither of them are 01:18:00very good, okay? This is not... This is what John Locke has seen in his 35 years, as being systemic misfortunes. UNCG tends almost at every turn, UNCG tends to think small. They rarely put themselves in the position, which probably means institutionally sticking its neck out, to really do something grand, or big, or first rate, or first class. UNCG... and this is... The companion part to 01:19:00that is the institutional thinking is always one of arch conservatism, in terms of mission, money, systems, everything, and so UNCG also seems to me that they get bogged down in the trivia of trying to run the place, be it the guidelines, and the rules, and the mechanisms that we have to follow to the nth degree, while missing the big picture items. Okay?

Dr. Locke: Number two big thing, that I think is... Surfaces over time, I see it. This one... I don't know if anybody's ever told you this one before, but 01:20:00it's... I believe it to be the case. I don't think UNCG has ever understood fully who they are, or what they are. I don't think we... I don't think UNCG has ever really had... I don't think any of the Chancellors here, for example, or most of the faculty, have ever really understood who we are, what we are, what we do well, and what's at our core. And I'll give you the examples.

Lacey Wilson: Okay.

Dr. Locke: I think UNCG... It's going to sound a little strange. I think UNCG 01:21:00is, can be, and at its best is, and has been a very viable, now get this word, boutique university.

Lacey Wilson: Boutique.

Dr. Locke: Boutique. All right. We are not, and we never, ever will be, Chapel Hill, or NC State. Now, I don't mean... By that, I don't mean... By that, I mean we don't have a law school, we don't have a med school, we don't have an engineering program, we don't have 30,000 students, and we don't have a lot of the things that those two campuses, which are the flagship campuses of the system, have. Okay?

Dr. Locke: What I think we do have, and we've had for a long time, but I think it's sort of been lost, kind of lost in the shuffle, by boutique I mean UNCG's 01:22:00not for everyone, okay? What is your major?

Lacey Wilson: Museum studies.

Dr. Locke: Okay, and is that in the college?

Lacey Wilson: Yeah, it's under arts and sciences.

Dr. Locke: The College of Arts and Sciences.

Lacey Wilson: In the History Department. Yeah.

Dr. Locke: Okay. All right. We have the College of Arts and Sciences, and for the longest time, until music became MTD, and then Music became the College of Visual, and added art, Visual and Performing Arts. We had School of Music, School of Nursing, School of Education, School of Business, School of whatever it is, Health and Human Performance or whatever.

Lacey Wilson: Human Profession? Or something-

Dr. Locke: And then we had the one that used to be... When I came, it was called the School of Home Economics, and now it's called the School of Human... What is it? Human something or other. Anyway, it's what used to be Home Ec. You know, 01:23:00when you come out of the library and go straight? That was the Home Ec building, and now it's the School of Human something or other. Got human in it. Anyway.

Dr. Locke: So, I'll admit to being biased, and maybe I can't see the forest for the trees, but I think, particularly in those areas of music, nursing, business, education, that those schools, and this is sort of the boutique part, this is like, "We are not Penn State. We are not the University of Illinois. We're not Chapel Hill. We're not NC State. We don't have 2,000 majors or whatever they have. We're not all things to everybody." What I think the University should have done a long time ago was to put virtually all their eggs into those 01:24:00schools, so that we could have literally the premier business school, the premier music school, or even now music, theater and dance and art, or visual... You know, the performing arts. The premier nursing thing, the premier school of education, and those things.

Dr. Locke: And I think the temptation was to... Now, admittedly, probably some of those... I know music's a very expensive operate, a very expensive major to have, because people get one on one instruction. You get a private lesson with a teacher on your trumpet, you know what I mean? And it's just expensive, and their classes aren't that big, but I think nursing, our nursing school is great. I think it could be even greater. The Joe Bryan Business School is excellent. I think they could even be better.

Dr. Locke: But I think these... I think literally, to me, as dumb as this sounds, I mean what do I know? I'm just a teacher. Our motto almost could be, 01:25:00"We are not all things to all people. This is what we do, and it's pretty darn selective, but we're really good at it." That's where I think this school has kind of missed its mark, because I think they wanted to say, "Oh yeah, we really do every," when I came here, this is going to sound silly. But when I came here, the entire sports operation was pretty much zero. We were in division, we're not in division one, we were in division three. Which means, division three, there are no scholarships for athletes.

Dr. Locke: Now, you can kind of... People kind of cheat on that, and it's like, "Okay, you're seven feet tall and we want you on our basketball team, and I'm going to get you a scholarship in the History department. Wink, wink," and then you're going to play basketball, you know. But it's not really a basketball scholarship, but people did that. But I thought it was kind of... I almost thought it was a mistake for us, and I can understand the reasons for it, but I 01:26:00thought, "I don't think this is going to work out that well," to go from division, Bill Moran did this, from division three all the way up to division one. You had to spend two years in division two to get there.

Dr. Locke: Even in division three, we had a really good soccer team. That was kind of a source of pride. But basketball was awful, men's and women's. The sport that... Athletics were just... It was just like we didn't even exist. Okay, now we're in division one, and really, I'm sorry to say this on your tape recorder, but it's still kind of like we don't even exist. You know? I mean, yeah, we're going to go play Wake Forest this weekend, but we're going to get creamed. Couple years ago I went to the Chapel Hill game. We got creamed. Of course we got creamed.

Dr. Locke: So, then we thought, "Well, we're really big time, so we got to move everything over to the coliseum." I thought, "Ugh." That caused our athletic director to leave town, too, so some... I wish we just could turn... If I could turn the clock back 35 years, I would just wish UNCG could realize who they 01:27:00really are, and what they're really good at, and go with that.

Lacey Wilson: Just focus on those schools as-

Dr. Locke: I would. Yeah, I mean... Maybe... I mean, the College of Arts and Sciences was our largest entity, and was very successful. And some of those departments are very good, and some of them are just sort of maybe not, is my guess. But I don't know, I just... To me, what differentiates us is okay, we're not Chapel Hill, and we're not NC State, and we don't... I'm glad we... I'm thrilled. I tell people this is why I've been here 35 years. We don't play football, which means, by extension, we don't have a marching band that John Locke has to run, or hire somebody to run. You know what I mean?

Lacey Wilson: Yeah.

Dr. Locke: That way, we can spend our time on real music. Now, there are kids 01:28:00who won't come here. There are some kids who won't come here to be a music major because we don't have a marching band. But I got news for you, there's a whole bunch that come here because we don't have a marching band, and they know they got burned out on it in high school, they just didn't like it to start with, and they know they won't have to be pressed into service, to romp up and down the field on a day like yesterday's weather, playing the fight song before not a very big crowd. You know what I'm saying?

Dr. Locke: So, I mean that's just me. I could be totally wrong, but I don't think I am, and I got the courage in my convictions that say that... And even to this day, I think when people say, "Well, what is UNCG? What's it all about? What's it really got? What's its stock in trade? What's its mark?" You know? I 01:29:00about turn... I'm not sure what the answer is. I think the messages are pretty mixed up. I think they've been mixed up for a long time.

Dr. Locke: Now, I will say one time, our basketball team... I think twice. Once they got to division one and they were in the Southern Conference, won the Southern Conference and got to go to the NCAA Tournament. The so called Big Dance, you know what I mean? You're familiar with such stuff.

Lacey Wilson: I am.

Dr. Locke: Okay, and the first time they went, I went with the pep band, and the Dean did too, and it was in Orlando. We went down there. We were a number two seed. We played Cincinnati, they were like 25 and 4, they looked like an NBA team. We were actually ahead at the halftime. We lost by 10, which was a moral victory if there's such a thing, but... And about three or four years later they won it again, and they went back. And they went out to California, and they played... I don't know, like Stanford or somebody, and we were like a 16 seed, 01:30:00and Stanford, whoever we played out there, or UCLA maybe, they were a number one seed. Well, we were going to get creamed. And we did. We got totally creamed.

Dr. Locke: But Bill Walton, who's a former UCLA player, and former NBA star, was the color commentator for the game. Of course the game was on TV, and people were watching. We were getting creamed, and Bill Walton, they were talking the game, as I said, we were getting creamed, and somewhere along the way, Bill Walton said something to the effect of... I'm sort of paraphrasing. He said something like, "Well, you know, not many people know much about UNCG. They won the Southern Conference in basketball, and that's why they're here as the 16 seed," he said, "But you know what UNCG's famous for is it's School of Music. 01:31:00They're really great." He said it on-

Lacey Wilson: National television.

Dr. Locke: National television at a basketball game. I just went, "Yes, yes, yes." I just wanted to scream and turn cartwheels. Kind of like, "Bill Walton, I love you. How did you know this? I don't know who wrote this for you, or how you know this, or whether you had a niece that went to school here or something, I don't know."

Lacey Wilson: That's amazing.

Dr. Locke: Yeah. That is amazing. So, I felt good about that. But anyway, that's just my obviously biased slant on everything.

Lacey Wilson: So, you think that two things that haven't changed are not quite knowing the identity of the campus?

Dr. Locke: Yes.

Lacey Wilson: Was the second one.

Dr. Locke: Thinking small.

Lacey Wilson: And thinking small's the first one. Can you expand more on the first one? Like, are we not taking big enough steps in a lot of ways, I guess?

Dr. Locke: I think we haven't... We've often not taken big enough steps, yes. Yeah. You know, it's institutionally been very, very, very conservative about 01:32:00taking a big, bold move, or taking a big, bold chance, or even taking any chance at all. I don't know. This is very much... I think this has always been very conservatively run. And I can understand that, I mean it's a public school, and it's public money, but I don't know. I think they tended to think small.

Lacey Wilson: Sure.

Dr. Locke: What do I know?

Lacey Wilson: You know what you've seen.

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: So, okay, we're going to size down a little bit. What changes do you think you've noticed during your time at UNCG, as far as just teaching in the music department?

Dr. Locke: There are more of us. Teaching, not a whole lot. I think you could almost criticize any music school, ours included, and I'm guilty of this, I'm a guilty party, that change in music teaching, or music curriculum, or anything else comes very, very slowly, and you could really kind of say that we've not kept pace. Not even so much with technology. I think we've sort of kept pace in technology, but I think we prepare people pretty well for music ed careers, and going out to become a music teacher. I think we do a less good job, I think we can teach somebody how to play their instrument, the clarinet, or the piano, or to sing. Can we totally prepare them for what's the realities of a performance 01:34:00career, and the things they're going to face in the cold cruel world?

Dr. Locke: We kind of work on things like trying to give the students some entrepreneurial skills, to cobble together some kind of performance career, or to be aware of the music business and the music industry, but music... Change in music teaching comes very, very slowly, and very incremental. We still sort of do things the way you find them done 20, 40, 60, 80 years ago in music schools. We're very traditional based. I'd say the main change here is jazz has become important over my 35 years, which was a nice change. It wasn't important at all, probably 35 years ago. It existed, but wasn't very important.

Dr. Locke: Music schools are very conservative, and we're very conservative. But 01:35:00we've got good students, we got lots of them, so that's nice. We've got a great faculty. There's a lot of great things that go on here, no doubt about that.

Lacey Wilson: So, leading toward that, what is, do you think are some social and academic events that stand out in your mind at UNCG? You've had a lot of performances, I'm certain.

Dr. Locke: Yes. Well, you know, I'd say for someone like me, an ensemble conductor, it's all about the concerts, and we give lots of them, and we've toured, and we had this wonderful European tour in May that was fantastic, and off the charts, and we had just... We hosted the National College Band Directors National Association Convention, and performed for that. There were 10 of the best wind ensembles in the country that came. And we've toured some. We've been 01:36:00to New York, and been to Washington. We've played at Lincoln Center, we've played at the Kennedy Center, we've gone to other national CBDNAs. We've gone to a couple of American Band Masters Association conventions.

Dr. Locke: So, those are kind of the highlights for me, I'd say.

Lacey Wilson: Sure. So, we're going to hit these wrap up questions at this point.

Dr. Locke: Okay, wrap it indeed.

Lacey Wilson: So, how do you think you've served beyond UNCG in professional organizations, or in the community of Greensboro?

Dr. Locke: Yeah. Well, early on, I became the Editor of the North Carolina Music Educator Magazine. Then, I became President of North Carolina Music Educators, that's a group with like 2,500 members, and that was about an eight year commitment to be President-Elect, and Vice President, and President, and past 01:37:00President, and all that sort of thing in two year increments.

Dr. Locke: I was southern division's of College Band Directors National Association President, which was also like an eight year commitment. I was President of the American Band Masters Association. That's probably the biggest feather in my cap. And now I'm the Editor of the Journal of Band Research, which is an ABA thing, and that's a huge sort of service, academic service sort of thing, so that's probably what I've done the most.

Lacey Wilson: Okay. What do you think makes our Performing Arts department, Visual Performing Arts department, stand out?

Dr. Locke: Well, I think all the components are good. Music, theater, dance, and 01:38:00art. They're all good units. I think we're probably the biggest of that, and I'd like to think we're the best, but I'd probably get some argument from somebody, but I think the components are all good.

Lacey Wilson: Okay. What do you think were your proudest accomplishments here at UNCG?

Dr. Locke: Mine?

Lacey Wilson: Yeah.

Dr. Locke: The wind ensemble and the music camp. That's about it. Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: Those are big ones.

Dr. Locke: They are. Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: All right, last two. Tell me how you think UNCG has affected your life, and what it means to you.

Dr. Locke: Well, I really think probably... I don't know that UNCG itself has had so much affect on my life, but certainly all the students here and the 01:39:00faculty. I've taught hundreds and hundreds of students, and I keep in touch with many of them, particularly the graduate students who were... But really just many of them, through camp, and through just traveling, and doing music, or guest conducting somewhere. It's kind of a hard question.

Dr. Locke: I think I've... I really treasure whatever it is that I've meant to some student, and I treasure those relationships, and all those students that worked hard for me to play in the band. What I like most, I think, about college teaching, is being with people as they, what I call make the transition from 01:40:00being a kid to being an adult. And I lean on people pretty hard. I think I'm kind of a fire breathing monster, or have been part of the time in my career, and so I'm... I like to see them make the transition. Some of them go back and forth between living in a kid's world and living in an adult's world, but I really like it when people take those steps to being a professional, and acting as if they were a music professional, so that's very, very rewarding for me.

Lacey Wilson: All right, so we're doing these interviews as part of the 125th anniversary next year, which is an excellent opportunity for reflection, but also helps us think about where we're headed in the future. So, what is the future for UNCG? Where do you see us going as an institution the next 25 to 50 01:41:00years? That's the last one.

Dr. Locke: Wowee. Where do I see you going?

Lacey Wilson: Yeah, that's why it's a good reflective question.

Dr. Locke: Yeah.

Lacey Wilson: A bit of an intro there, too.

Dr. Locke: Yes. I don't know. I don't really have a clue. I'm sort of... I almost would have to turn to humor here. Who was the... Was it an actor, or was it Yogi Berra, the baseball player or somebody, who had the silly quote, "The future's not what it used to be."

Lacey Wilson: Sounds like Yogi Berra.

Dr. Locke: It might be. So, wow. You know, these are just chapters that haven't been written, and I don't really know. I think, boy, UNCG has just, and all the state schools have just kind of the air has... A lot of the air leaked out of 01:42:00the balloon during the last 10 years, when we just had got hammered in the teeth with budget cuts, and shrinking, and people retiring and not being able to be replaced on the faculty. I think really, I think it's going to depend for state schools on a couple of things.

Dr. Locke: One is can the economy really come back? I mean, it's come back, but can it really come back, and all these people that have given up on being unemployed get employed? Can there be enough tax revenue in this state for the university system, and the community college system, and the public school system to do better than they've done in the last 10 years? And what kind of 01:43:00impact will that have on how the universities do?

Dr. Locke: I mean, we're still going to be here. I just hope the future's bright. I really and truly can't predict it. I hope that our best days didn't all occur 10 years or longer ago here. I hope that the current... I hope that the North Carolina legislature, and the new governor, and all these people realize that the university system is not really just exactly like the community college system. We're not here to just create workers for industry, that there's more to an education than just learning... The big picture goes way beyond just 01:44:00learning a trade.

Dr. Locke: So, gosh. All I know is I won't be here working all that much longer, probably, but I wish them the very best. I'll support them to the hilt. I hope it goes great, and I kind of worry that... Like that quote, "The future ain't what it used to be." So, I don't... But I don't know.

Lacey Wilson: Okay.

Dr. Locke: Yeah. I'm sorry to be down on this, but I don't know really what the right answer is.

Lacey Wilson: It's okay.

Dr. Locke: I don't think I can just up and down and say, "Oh, it's a slam dunk. It's going to be fabulous. We're going to be better. We're going to do more." I don't know.

Lacey Wilson: I feel like all we really want from this question is for you to answer to the best of your ability.

Dr. Locke: Well, there you go. All right. There you got it.

Lacey Wilson: So you got it.

Dr. Locke: You got it out of me.

Lacey Wilson: I did.

Dr. Locke: Yes you did.

Lacey Wilson: All right. Is there anything else you wish I had touched on more?

Dr. Locke: No. You touched on everything.

Lacey Wilson: All right, then I'm going to stop the recorder then.