Oral history interview with Dr. Karl Schleunes, 2017

Brittany H.: My name is Britney Hendrick and today is Friday, February 3rd, 2017. I'm in Jackson library with Emeritus Professor of History, Dr. Karl Schleunes, to conduct an oral history interview for the UNCG Institutional Memory Collection. Thank you Dr. Schleunes for participating in this project and sharing your experiences with me.

Brittany H.: I'd like to start the interview by asking you about your childhood. Could you tell me when and where you were born?

Karl Schleunes: I was born in rural small town Wisconsin in 1937, almost 80 years ago.

Brittany H.: Okay. And could you tell me about your family and your home life?

Karl Schleunes: Well, I was the last of four children. I was born after my ... I'm the youngest of four and my youngest sibling, my older brother, was 12 when 00:01:00I was born, my oldest sister was I think was 20, and the other sister, 18, and my brother, 12, and then I came along as a surprise I think.

Karl Schleunes: So, in some ways, in many ways actually, I was sort of an only child because I didn't play with my siblings. They were doing things that little kids didn't want to do. And they also told me that given the fact that I was the youngest, the fourth, it was likely that I was able to get a by with stuff that they had never been able to do.

Brittany H.: And, what did your parents do?

Karl Schleunes: My father was a dairy farmer and my mother was a housewife in 00:02:00this small town in Wisconsin.

Brittany H.: What was it like growing up in the late 30s, early 40s?

Karl Schleunes: Well, I don't remember much of the late 30s, I was just three years old.

Karl Schleunes: But, one of my earliest childhood memories is Pearl Harbor. It was on a Sunday morning, December 7th of 1941. So I was about three and a half or, I guess, soon to be four. Sunday morning and, obviously, in my family we were going to church, and I wasn't listening, but my parents were listening to the radio, and suddenly they really were shocked and I asked what was wrong, and they said, "There's a war." I didn't know what a war was so I asked, "What's a 00:03:00war?" They said ... What do you tell a kid? "That's when grown men fight each other." And I thought, "Gee. Who allows that? If I fight, I get into trouble. Shouldn't these men get into trouble?" That was my conception of it.

Karl Schleunes: One of the other early memories related sort of to that is the death of Franklin Roosevelt. Well, April 1945, four years later, this time I was listening to the radio myself and I think I was listening to some kids program on the radio. My mother was outside. It was a warm spring day in early Wisconsin. Warm spring days in Wisconsin are rare ... Warm days. But she was outside in the garden, doing something with flowers I think, and I was listening 00:04:00to the radio and it broke in, and I told her that ... I heard the announcement on the radio that's when I went out and told her that the President died.

Karl Schleunes: Some early childhood memories.

Brittany H.: Okay. Where did you go to high school?

Karl Schleunes: In a little town in Wisconsin called Kiel, K-I-E-L, named after, obviously, the German city Kiel. And it's pretty easy to guess where the founders of Kiel, Wisconsin came from. Many of them came from that Northern German city. And since, this was a German speaking area ... a German immigration area, lots of towns had, in fact, German names. German names or Indian names, 00:05:00and so you could have places like Kiel or Holstein, and then wonderful Indian names like Oconomowoc, or Milwaukee, or Sheboygan. You know, all those kinds of things. That was the setting. This was a Protestant family and so I went to a Protestant church, Protestant Sunday school, that sort of thing. The town was, Kiel is ... Now, has a population of about 3000 people so it's not a big place.

Brittany H.: Okay. Did you enjoy school?

Karl Schleunes: Yes. Yeah, I did well in school and I enjoyed it and I enjoyed 00:06:00learning stuff.

Karl Schleunes: There's a question here about what I studied or what I done, enjoy most in high school?

Brittany H.: Yeah, what were your favorite subjects?

Karl Schleunes: History, and English literature, and theater program, and, believe it or not, I played on the football team. And actually, we weren't very good and the one thing I did that I remember, once in my career I caught a pass for a touchdown. We lost the game by 40 to six or something like that. I don't know what. We weren't exactly killers on the football field.

Brittany H.: All right. So, history and-

Karl Schleunes: And so, I chose a different career, put it that way.

Brittany H.: Okay. So, history and English. All right. And, when did you graduate from high school?

Karl Schleunes: 1955.

Brittany H.: Could you tell me a little bit about your education after high school?

Karl Schleunes: Well, I went to college. Well, I signed up, so to speak, as an English major and so I didn't know what I was going to do with that. But I had a history course also, and I found that really interesting, and so I switched without any problem whatsoever as a freshman switching majors to history. And then, by the time I was a sophomore, I thought that I probably wanted to become 00:08:00a college history professor. I thought that would be a great life and in some way it is, or it was.

Brittany H.: So, do you remember what history course it was?

Karl Schleunes: It was a course in European history.

Brittany H.: Okay.

Karl Schleunes: And, I remember even the lecture that grabbed me. It was a lecture on the assassination of the Archduke Franz Ferdinand in July of 1914. I think it's July. I should get that right, shouldn't I?

Brittany H.: That's okay. We won't hold it against you.

Karl Schleunes: And then, it was between my sophomore and junior year, I got a fellowship for a semester at the University of Vienna. That was in 1957. And so, 00:09:00that was my first trip abroad. To Germany ... well, to visiting people in Germany, and then in Salzburg in Austria, and in Vienna itself. That was in 1957. The war damage was still very evident but that was an important experience for me because once I came back from that I knew what it was that I wanted to do.

Karl Schleunes: And so, I went onto graduate school at the University of Minnesota, came out with a PhD in 1965. And with that, after having also spend a 00:10:00year, two semesters, at the Free University of Berlin, in which I did research for my doctoral dissertation as well.

Brittany H.: Okay. And just so I can get the ... So you received your bachelor's from ... ?

Karl Schleunes: In Lakeland College.

Brittany H.: Lakeland College.

Karl Schleunes: In Wisconsin.

Brittany H.: And, what year was that?

Karl Schleunes: 1959.

Brittany H.: Okay. And then, you received your master's ... ?

Karl Schleunes: Well, master's in 1961 I think and PhD in 1965.

Brittany H.: Okay. And so, what did you do after you received your PhD?

Karl Schleunes: Well, I looked for a job. And that was a good time for ... the 00:11:00mid 1960s was a good time. The job market was pretty wide open and there was lots of possibilities.

Karl Schleunes: I accepted a job in Chicago at the University of Illinois, it was Chicago. And I was there for six or seven years until 1971, when the man who was the Chairman of the History Department, a man I liked very much, left and came to the University of North Carolina at Greensboro as the, now, it would be the provost, he was the Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs, Chief Academic 00:12:00Officer for the University. At a time, when there was big changes here at now UNCG, few years before, it had been the Woman's College. And now, it was transformed into a university in it's own right. And they were ... This former boss of mine, let me know that there was a job opening here if I was interested. And, I was.

Karl Schleunes: I like Chicago very much but the department was a zoo in Chicago and I wanted to get out of that. I didn't want to leave Chicago, I liked Chicago. But I came here for an interview. I left Chicago ... snowstorm, very 00:13:00cold, windy, flew to Greensboro, North Carolina and it was one of those beautiful February sunny warm days. And, I thought that that's kind of nice. And well, I gave a talk to the department, and they apparently thought it was good enough, and I was offered the job, and decided to take it. And so, I've been living in Greensboro, North Carolina ever since and taught for I think 39 years before ... When I retired in 2010. I think that's the math if I remember them correctly.

Karl Schleunes: Having taught for 45 years total.

Brittany H.: Okay. And, you might have mentioned but what was the guy's name?

Karl Schleunes: Oh, Stanley Jones.

Brittany H.: Stanley Jones, he ... Okay.

Karl Schleunes: He was the Vice Chancellor for Academic Affairs. And the History Department was one of the premier departments in the University. And there was a very heavy emphasis upon good teaching. And, so.

Brittany H.: Okay. Could you tell me about your first days on campus and what was your first impression?

Karl Schleunes: Well, I remember walking into my first class in the fall, probably late August or ... No, I think it was after Labor Day, the traditional when God meant the semester to start, and it was almost all female then, 00:15:00accustomed to that. The Woman's College ethic and imprint was still very much on that. There were very few males, and of course, also very few African American students but that, of course, all changed during the course of the next few years.

Karl Schleunes: I was impressed, by the way, how good those students were. Those female students they really were in fact topnotch people. And that was a good way to start. I mean, it made me feel good at the onset.

Brittany H.: Okay. So, what were your areas of focus in teaching, practice, and scholarship?

Karl Schleunes: Okay. I was trained ... My PhD was in German history. Modern Germany which means basically 19th and 20th century. And my research focus was 00:16:00on Germany in the 20th century, particularly the Nazis. And one of the National Socialist era, Third Reich phenomenon, I was trying to explain that. That was the 1970s and gradually there was a rapidly growing ... Well, gradually, rapid, can't be both ... but there was an evolving developing interest in what came to be called the Holocaust. And what the research that I had done in this book The Twisted Road, sort of lead me into that field. And well, I came in 1971, I think it was in 1989 ... that's quite a few years late, was the first time that I 00:17:00taught the Holocaust course. And, from that time forward ... I would be 21 years, I retired in 2010, and 1989 would be 11, and 10, 21 years.

Karl Schleunes: So, I taught courses in German history. For a while, I taught also ... it was a whole survey of German history from this development out from in the Roman era period, through the Middle Ages up to the modern period. After that, I had a Medievalist and that, I was happy with that person could do that kind of teaching that covered that area.

Brittany H.: Okay. Now, your book, The Twisted Road to Auschwitz, that has been referred to as a landmark in Holocaust histography. Do you have any comments on 00:18:00your contributions to the field?

Karl Schleunes: Well, I like to have other people make comments. I like that comment to be sure, but ...

Brittany H.: Why don't you, you know, obviously, people can go and read your book but could you maybe just summarize what-

Karl Schleunes: Oh, yes. Yes.

Brittany H.: How your book contributed to historiography?

Karl Schleunes: Okay. In the 1950s on into the 1960s, looking at what the Nazis did, what was called simply the Final Solution before the term Holocaust was applied to what the Nazis did, and that doesn't come until the 70s. But, in the 1960s when I began in this field it was assumed that the Nazis, in fact, had a blueprint. That when Hitler came to power, he opened the file, took out the plan 00:19:00to murder the Jews. And that seemed like the logical thing in many ways. And, I bought that and so on.

Karl Schleunes: But then, when I was in Berlin doing research in the mid 60s, I was working in an archive, the ... I forget exactly what it was called now, but it was the captured documents that the Americans had captured from the Nazis, a huge archive. And I was working in there for about a year. And, I got documents and documents and I kept looking for Adolf Hitler's signature on the documents, 00:20:00so you know, "Kill the Jews, beginning here." And I never found it and that kind of confused me. And I thought, "Gee, I'm wasting my time. I'm not finding what I should be finding."

Karl Schleunes: And then, I went to London for a library there that's especially have been gathered by a refugee Jewish scholar and had transformed that library out of Germany, under the nose of the Nazis, brought it to London. And, I worked in that library for a month and somehow, sitting at a table like this in a way, it occurred to me, "Hey, maybe it was wrong to think that there was such a plan. Maybe, there wasn't. Maybe, it evolved more slowly." And that, became ... Hence 00:21:00the title, Twisted Road to Auschwitz, not, Road to Auschwitz.

Karl Schleunes: And, at first, that book was ignored because it didn't make sense to people, "Well, obviously, you're wrong." But then, after about ... well, about four, five years, people read it again I think or whatever, and after that, it became sort of a standard and important work. It was part of, in the profession, among German historians was known as the intentionalist ... you know what I'm talking about. The intentionalist and functionalist program.

Brittany H.: Intentionalist and functionalist. Yeah.

Karl Schleunes: And so, I became one of the early functionalist. And that, of 00:22:00course, Christopher Browning is a major figure in that as well. And now, I think pretty much the notion that it wasn't a straight road is standard view. So I've been, in that sense, satisfied with the reception.

Brittany H.: It's very fascinating. And I think most historians would refer to your book as revisionism.

Karl Schleunes: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Brittany H.: Or revisionist history.

Karl Schleunes: Yeah, yeah.

Brittany H.: So. Okay. Let's see ... So what social and academic events stand out in your mind during your time at UNCG?

Karl Schleunes: Oh, my. Oh ...

Karl Schleunes: Well, it's a hard one. I don't know.

Brittany H.: Or, maybe just within the department.

Karl Schleunes: Oh, one of the major steps in the department was when I came here the head of the department was Professor Bardolph, he was an institution all by himself, and he had been head of the department for a long time. And, he's the one ultimately, of course, who hired me as well. He retired and contrary to what was the case, in almost all of the departments in the university at the time, a woman became head of the department. And that was a major milestone. You know, this was a Woman's College but the department heads tended to be men ... Not all cases, not like in home economics or so on, but 00:24:00what became the College of Arts and Sciences that was true.

Karl Schleunes: And, there was a reception in these academic receptions and in the social receptions, of course, also women poured tea, right? Okay. I poured tea after reception for the new woman department head. It was a pretty formal dress up reception. We don't do that kind of thing anymore these days really but that was an important event. Yeah.

Brittany H.: Okay. What was her name?

Karl Schleunes: Anne Saab. She's still alive. We have lunch every once in a while. She was department head for a number of years and then also went on to be 00:25:00the Associate Dean in the Graduate School.

Brittany H.: All right. Speaking of professors, were there any professors in the department who made an impression on you?

Karl Schleunes: Well, yeah. When I came for the interview February of 1971, Robert Calhoun ... meet people for the first time and they make some kind of impression, and it was my colleague who became a very good friend, Robert Calhoun, an American historian, colonial history. And, he was one of the people, as were the others, who were very nice, seemed very congenial when I came for the two days of interviewing. And, certainly he and people like him helped me 00:26:00persuade ... because coming from Chicago to Greensboro, North Carolina in 1971 was a big, big, big change. And, I know I was born and grew up in a small town environment and living in Minneapolis, and Berlin, and Chicago, I like big cities, and Greensboro was pretty small. And, it struck me at the time as also, I wouldn't say backward and I don't ... Well, I just said it, sort of behind the times, you know, whatever.

Karl Schleunes: I think Greensboro has changed tremendously in the last ... Well, now we're talking about 45, 50 years aren't we. Tremendous, tremendous 00:27:00change. And we lived here now for that long and my daughter, who wasn't born here but she was three years old when we came and she's now ... She and her family live in Charlotte. I have two grandsons, so.

Brittany H.: Okay. So, how has the History Department changed over the time you've been here?

Karl Schleunes: Well, it's become much more ... Well, it's always had very good teaching and it had a very good reputation. It has had a good scholarly reputation as well. But the discipline of history has changed certainly since the 1960s. When I came in 1965, administration has come to be standardized and 00:28:00professionalized in very important ways. I mean, things are done I think in a very professional way and that's good.

Karl Schleunes: If we are, of course, also make ... There are new areas of history they don't seem new now, but African American's didn't have a history. Nobody talked of Afro-American history but nowadays, there's real strength there. We didn't ... African history. We have various strengths in African history. And, Native American history, they also were sidelined but now we have those. So, the conception of what historians should be studying has expanded 00:29:00greatly not only in terms of who and where, but in ways, in methodologies, that weren't employed back then.

Brittany H.: And, gender history is one of the new ones. Yeah.

Karl Schleunes: Gender history, of course. Woman's ... Well, I mean, women didn't have a history and now they do.

Karl Schleunes: So those are important and valuable changes.

Brittany H.: What about the creation of a PhD program or master's program? When was that implemented?

Karl Schleunes: There was a master's program when I came here. So, I don't know when that began. My guess would be four, five years before I came. The PhD 00:30:00program, I don't remember the date now, but it was 10 or 15 years ago. Do you know? I mean ...

Brittany H.: I actually don't know off the top of my head.

Karl Schleunes: I remember when it happened. And, I was already pretty senior that in the sense of approaching retirement. Since I retired in 2010, so I suppose this would've been maybe the late 1990s, something like that. That obviously represent a major change. I don't know how many graduate students or PhD students there are now, or MIA students but ...

Brittany H.: Not that many.

Karl Schleunes: Not that many?

Brittany H.: But, well-

Karl Schleunes: Well, it's a small program.

Brittany H.: Not to me but there more than there use to be.

Karl Schleunes: Yeah, right. Right.

Brittany H.: Okay, that leads me into my next question which is, can you tell me about the types of students that you've had in the department over the years?

Karl Schleunes: Okay. I've had some extraordinary students. As I told you, my first classroom I walk into and here are all these young women and they're really good students, which is wonderful.

Karl Schleunes: And so, as the university grew, the numbers grew. Not everyone was as well prepared as these young women were at the outset of the Woman's College of ... But I also remember that ... Well, I thought, "Gee. They aren't 00:32:00as good as they use to be." And then, after awhile they got to be better again.

Karl Schleunes: And I have had some really outstanding, outstanding students whom I'm proud, not proud of what I did, but proud of what they did. And I'm not proud, but I'm really satisfied or gratified at their success.

Karl Schleunes: And, the teachers, teaching larger classes also represented a major change because the History Department really hasn't, the faculty, hasn't grown in numbers that much from the numbers that were the case when I came. But obviously, teaching loads and class sizes have changed a great deal. But I enjoy 00:33:00teaching very much.

Brittany H.: Okay. How have you served beyond UNCG? In professional organizations or the community?

Karl Schleunes: Well, I've been members of German Studies Association, Holocaust Education Foundation, been on boards and things like that, reviewing manuscripts for publishers, etc. So, generally involved with the profession.

Brittany H.: Okay. What would you say your proudest accomplishments were during your time here?

Karl Schleunes: I don't usually talk about being proud but I would rather answer 00:34:00a question about being gratified or being satisfied with things.

Karl Schleunes: And, it's the success I've had and sometimes the setbacks. But when I saw that question, I said, "What am I going to say? I can't think of anything." And then, it occurred to me that the senses of satisfaction, maybe that's a form of pride, I don't know but the successes these people reflects well upon me, put it that way.

Brittany H.: Okay. Well, the next question is, I was going to ask if there was any work, or project, or research that you've done here that of which you are particularly proud but, I guess, I won't use the word proud. I guess, what came 00:35:00to mind was I know you've been involved ... Well, I'm not sure. This is kind of a question for you but have you brought Holocaust survivors to the school?

Karl Schleunes: Oh, yes. Yes. There have been Holocaust survivors here. I think one instance, somebody very important who became good friend of mine, a Jewish man gave me a call ... He was retired.

Karl Schleunes: Well, let me start over. He was born in Vienna. At the age of 13, his parents send him off on the Kindertransport, which you know all about. And, he survived, he went to England, and then eventually came to the United States, was a successful business man, retired, lived in various places in the 00:36:00United States, retired to Raleigh, and then he and his wife moved to Greensboro after he was retired. And somehow he had heard of me and he gave me a phone call and said, "I'd like to talk with you." And I would like to talk with him given his experiences. And, we met and ultimately, although he was only about 10 or 15 years older than I was, he became a graduate student and took Master's Degree in European History. Basically, doing a dissertation or a thesis on himself or his 00:37:00own experiences as a child in Vienna, and then the Kindertransport, his experiences in the Kindertransport and he became a very good friend.

Karl Schleunes: He was also married, his wife, still very much alive, is also a friend, and she's a city council person here in Greensboro now.

Karl Schleunes: But that's one of the most extraordinary examples. I kept teasing him, "You know, I taught you everything you know?" Knowing that that wasn't true at all. But, kind of the juxtaposition of his being much older than I was didn't fit the normal pattern of student relationships. But he came every 00:38:00year for 10, maybe more, 15 years, came to talk to my class about his experiences. And he was a tall elegant man, and so he had a very wonderful presence, spoke impeccable English, and wrote impeccable English prose style, no accent whatsoever. He was sort of in the same situation as Henry Kissinger. You know Henry Kissinger, you heard him speak or said ... he had very heavy German accent. We joked about that that he probably cultivated that because it was a good, be the German professor. But in any event, Jack Hoffman was his name and 00:39:00he died about a year and a half ago at the age of 90 plus.

Karl Schleunes: I don't remember what the question was.

Brittany H.: It was one of the proud questions but it was-

Karl Schleunes: Well, I take pride and satisfaction in that.

Brittany H.: Yes, of course. I would too. The question was, is there any work, or any projects, research that you've done here ...

Karl Schleunes: Well, I mean, the book on the Nuremberg Laws, and lecturing abroad, conferences and history departments abroad and England, and South Africa, and Germany, and France. And, so.

Brittany H.: And, you've been very involved on campus as well.

Karl Schleunes: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yup.

Brittany H.: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. Did you have any interactions with any of the chancellors? Chancellor Moran, Chancellor Sullivan, Chancellor Brady?

Karl Schleunes: Well, yeah. Well, also there the Chancellor Ferguson. He wasn't on your list, who I admired.

Brittany H.: That was my mistake. I'm sorry, I'm not-

Karl Schleunes: No, that's not a problem at all. He was chancellor when I came here. Well, he was chancellor for four, or five, or more years. A very elegant man, very fine person, who then, when he retired from chancellor, he had been an American historian. He went back and he became ... See, I forget where that 00:41:00sentence started exactly, it's like ... Oh, Ferguson, yeah, he came to the History department, was a very important figure there.

Karl Schleunes: Chancellor Maram, I knew him quite well. We socialized together occasionally. His wife and my wife became good friends, are still good friends. We see the Moran's occasionally.

Karl Schleunes: Next was Chancellor Sullivan, I liked her very much. She was a really nice person. She sent notes to people who published books or did something, so I got a note.

Karl Schleunes: Her successor, Chancellor Brady, I had already retired ... Well, 00:42:00at the same time. She had more difficulties, as you know, I'm sure.

Karl Schleunes: And now, I met once or twice the Chancellor but he has no reason to remember who I am.

Brittany H.: Gilliam. Chancellor Gilliam.

Karl Schleunes: Gilliam, yeah. Mm-hmm (affirmative). I mean, I hear all kinds of good things. Yeah, so. And he strikes me as somebody who's doing very well [inaudible 00:42:43].

Brittany H.: Well, how has working in UNCG impacted and affected your life and what is-

Karl Schleunes: It's been my life in many ways, not only impacting but organized in many ways my life around UNCG and, in fact, that still true because I'm 00:43:00working here in the library. Working on, in fact, a books that would be the successor to The Twisted Road. And, I've been on the Friends at the Library board, and as Chairman of it, and I love the library. I like libraries, I like books, and I like quiet places, and I like a little bigger place. You've seen ... but I'm not complaining. I'm very happy. No, my life has been shaped or I've shaped my life around at UNCG. And, well, I've been involved otherwise too but have a family, those are self-significance as well.

Brittany H.: And, you have been retired since 2010?

Karl Schleunes: '10.

Brittany H.: And you come to the library every week.

Karl Schleunes: Every day.

Brittany H.: Every day? Okay.

Karl Schleunes: I mean, I'm working on the book. I tell people that I come to work every day except for those days that I don't and I'm the one who decides. And, well, right now I do come here because I'm working on the manuscript and still giving some lectures. And, in fact, this semester, I'm teaching a course at Greensboro College.

Brittany H.: Wow.

Karl Schleunes: Well, that's one of the things that I use to be pretty proud. Greensboro College, which has a special interest in the Holocaust, is a benefactor who has endowed a library collection of books on the Holocaust, and sponsors an annual Schleunes Lecture. I don't know if you've ever heard of that 00:45:00but it's once a year, an important Holocaust scholar comes to the Greensboro College for a lecture. That is named for me.

Brittany H.: There is an award named after you for here. It's a scholarship.

Karl Schleunes: Right. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Brittany H.: Okay. Yeah. I remember seeing that.

Karl Schleunes: Yeah, it's in the History Department for graduate students I think. Yeah. That was endowed by a former student who must've liked me because when I retired, he gave a really nice sum of money into endow that award.

Brittany H.: So, you're teaching at Greensboro College-

Karl Schleunes: One course.

Brittany H.: One course.

Karl Schleunes: Just for a semester and then after ...

Karl Schleunes: Team teaching that course.

Brittany H.: Okay. And then, working on your book, and you still get asked to be on panels and lectures and things. Yeah.

Karl Schleunes: Right.

Brittany H.: Okay. So, we're doing these interviews as part of the 125 anniversary of the University, which is an excellent opportunity for reflection, but it also helps us think about where we are heading in the future. So, what do you think the future is for UNCG? Where do you see UNCG going as an institution in the next 25 to 50 years?

Karl Schleunes: Well, I'm a historian I shouldn't be predicting the future. I'm concerned not solely by UNCG but by the nationwide reduction of public support, 00:47:00state government support for higher education. What? I think North Carolina budget ... The state of North Carlina has reduced I think by 25, maybe even 30% of it's usual support. That is bad and is something that will be difficult to deal with. It's nationwide, it's not just North Carolina.

Karl Schleunes: UNCG, however, I think which is quite well run, should be able to hang on and flourish I think in the next 50 years ... 40 years. It has a solid foundation, it has a good reputation ... deserved, and with the right 00:48:00leadership can do well I think.

Brittany H.: Okay. Well, I don't think I have anymore formal questions for you. Did you have anything you'd like to add about your time here at UNCG or any other experiences that you would like to mention?

Karl Schleunes: Well, no. I got to say it's been a good arrangement. I'm happy with my career here and look kindly upon the University, the History Department, the library, so.

Karl Schleunes: What happen? Oh, this recording goes into the archives, is that it?

Brittany H.: Yes.

Karl Schleunes: Will it also be transcribed or ... ?

Brittany H.: It will be indexed.

Karl Schleunes: Inde-

Brittany H.: I can tell you a little bit about that.

Karl Schleunes: Okay, yeah.

Brittany H.: But, thank you so much. Okay.