Oral history interview with John Overly, Jr., 2017

Scott Hinshaw:All right, today is Wednesday March 15th 2017. My name is Scott Hinshaw. I am in the Alumni House with long time library staff member and UNCG class of 1968 alumnus, John Overly, to conduct an oral history interview for the UNCG Institutional Memory Collection. Good morning.

John Overly:Good morning.

Scott Hinshaw:Let's start off with some early life and biographical information. I'd like to ask you about your background, tell me when and where you were born.

John Overly:Okay I was born here in Greensboro in 1945. Actually in St. Leo's Hospital which was out on Summit Avenue at the time. It's no longer there, but it was right at the corner of Bessemer and Summit. Right across from the old ... Well the Summit Shopping Center's still there, it's across the street.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay and tell me about your parents, your home life. Do you have any brothers and sisters, and what did your parents do?

John Overly:Okay my father worked in the textile industry, he was very mechanical so he worked on looms and all the equipment involved in textile industry and weaving and whatnot. Mother was what they called a homemaker, she didn't work outside the home. I have a sister, she's younger than I am by three years. We lived in an area sort of north of Greensboro, it's part of Greensboro now, but it was in the county. I went to county schools up until high school, and then they rearranged the whole school set up. So for high school I went to Page. Which is in the northern part of Greensboro now. And graduated in June of 1963.

Scott Hinshaw:Now which plant, which company did your dad work for? Or did he work for several?

John Overly:Initially he worked for a small outfit in downtown Greensboro called Carolina Loom & Reed. But then he started working for Southern Webbing Mill which was out close to where we lived. It was sort of a standalone outfit. Making elastic products for underwear, and I guess...and that sort of thing.

Scott Hinshaw:Neat.

John Overly:He and my mother divorced in 1963, so after that I didn't see a 00:03:00whole lot of him.

Scott Hinshaw:All right so you went to Page, did you have any favorite subjects either in high school or earlier?

John Overly:I did. I loved history. And math, and the sciences. When I graduated I wasn't sure what I wanted to do, but I didn't think there was any kind of career to be had in history. I really wanted to be an archaeologist and go to Columbia, but when I saw how much it cost I knew that was gonna be impossible.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. So what sparked your interest in archeology? Just a general love of history? Did you know of particular things going on that ... Any kind of digs around?

John Overly:I knew there was some stuff going on at Old Salem, and every once in a while they had some digging going on at the battlefield park.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah they're still doing both of those actually.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay so after high school what did you do?

John Overly:I knew that it was going to be a problem with financing a higher education, but I did want to go to college or university. And it just so happens in '63 the whole universities changed, and they made what was formerly Woman's College into University of North Carolina at Greensboro. And it became coeducational. So I thought this is close by, and I could live at home and commute. So I actually went back to Page and talked with one of my high school counselors, and she thought that was a good idea too. She thought they would be accepting men quite readily, so I applied and was able to get in.

Scott Hinshaw:I guess it was in the news-

John Overly:Oh yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Certainly that it was becoming coeducational. And you had already graduated, so you don't know if they had already gone out ... A lot of times schools will go out to high schools and try to recruit ... Do you know if they did anything like that for men specifically?

John Overly:I don't.

Scott Hinshaw:All right, that's good. Were you thinking of anywhere else before you chose to apply to UNCG?

John Overly:Yeah Chapel Hill and State. But again cost was gonna be an issue. So I decided it'd be better to stay here in Greensboro. The price was right, I paid $125 a semester tuition, and there were a few fees but they were nominal. $10 or $15.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. A lot more fees today for sure.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:So did you live on or off campus?

John Overly:I lived off campus. There weren't any men's dorms at the time. A couple of years later they did convert an apartment house that was back here behind the library to a dorm for men. Then as the population increased they made more arrangements throughout campus.

Scott Hinshaw:Right we've heard from other people various sort of makeshift dorm arrangements like you said.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:So the fall of 1964 as you said was the first semester for UNCG itself and as a coeducational school.

John Overly:Correct.

Scott Hinshaw:So what was it like being one of the first few men on campus? And tell me about how many you think were here at that time.

John Overly:I think there were around 25, 30, 35, 40 something like that. I know 00:07:00there were several classes where there were men, some of the general classes, and there were a few men in those. Like history or I think economics, this sort of thing, some of the general first year classes. But not a lot.

Scott Hinshaw:So you definitely had classes in which you were the only male as well.

John Overly:Oh yes.

Scott Hinshaw:That was the majority of your classes probably, right?

John Overly:Yeah pretty much.

Scott Hinshaw:Wow. So coming from Page I guess it was more 50/50 maybe? Closer to that?

John Overly:Oh yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Women and men? So that's a big change on top of ... I guess it's the same back then as it was for me, when you go from high school to college there's kind of a big difference there. Depending on how well trained you are as far as amount of reading, amount that's expected of you. Was there-

John Overly:Oh for sure. Yeah. Just the very first ... I can remember coming 00:08:00here for registration, they had it in the basement of the old Rosenthal Gym. Of course nothing was air conditioned at that time. It was mid August when we did registration, and it was just a ghastly experience because it was so hot and so crowded. I think mainly there were freshmen who were being registered, so no one knew what they were doing.

Scott Hinshaw:Of course. Chaos.

John Overly:And all the professors or instructors were sitting around at tables and you went by and signed up for their classes. Earlier I had met with my advisor Dr. Helen Bedon who was with the chemistry department. I knew at the 00:09:00time that I wanted to be a chemistry major, so they sort of shuttled me that way.

Scott Hinshaw:So how did you come to chemistry? Because I don't think that was one of the ones you mentioned necessarily in high school that was a favorite subject. But obviously you must have had some competency-

John Overly:I had taken two classes in high school in chemistry, and was fairly good in math. So I figured the job opportunities would be a lot better, so that's what pushed me towards it.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. So you talked about it a little bit, but what did you expect when you came to UNCG first, and what were your first impressions of it?

John Overly:I guess, I'm not sure what I expected. I knew it was going to be a whole different atmosphere than going to high school, and the classes were going 00:10:00to be a lot more difficult. But thinking back I can't really ... I really anticipated going because I thought it was going to be a great experience, but ... I don't know what else to say.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. I think freshman year's like that for a lot of people, right? It's so overwhelming and so much going on.

John Overly:There's a lot of unknowns, but yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:So you lived off campus, so you were a commuter.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:So did you ever eat on campus at all? Did you just come for class and then leave?

John Overly:I never ate in the cafeteria. I did eat in the student soda shop which was right out here in the little building that now I think is the faculty center.

Scott Hinshaw:It's the faculty center, yep.

John Overly:But mostly, I had all my classes mainly in the morning, and so I would come early and then just leave by lunchtime. And generally I would go to one of the fast food places over on Lee Street. Where I had my meals.

Scott Hinshaw:All right and we talked about your chemistry-

John Overly:And I still worked.

Scott Hinshaw:Oh yeah tell me about what you were doing for work? What were you doing?

John Overly:After I got out of high school I got a job at the Greensboro Public Library. At the time it shared the building with the museum on Summit Avenue, so when I started at UNCG I kept a part time job with them. During '63, '64 they 00:12:00moved to the new library which was on Greene Street. I worked there for several years. Then as I got into the chemistry area I got an internship I guess you would call it with Dow Corning, and gave up my Greensboro Public job. Because they were paying quite a bit more.

John Overly:I also worked in the labs on campus.

Scott Hinshaw:As a lab assistant, or-

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. So that's interesting, the one on Greene Street, that would be the one that's the Elon Law School now right?

John Overly:That's correct, yes.

Scott Hinshaw:That's the one I grew up knowing. I didn't realize they used to be in that beautiful museum.

John Overly:Yeah. It's the old First Presbyterian Church.

Scott Hinshaw:That's a cool building. So you got to walk all around in that?

John Overly:Yeah it was really neat. We shared, as you're looking sort of ... Well I don't know what you would consider the front of the building now.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah it's kind of round, isn't it?

John Overly:Yeah, but the section to the right that's closest to LeBauer Park I guess that is now, that was the library portion. And then the museum had the rounded section.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. It sounds very interesting actually.

John Overly:Yeah it was. Again it wasn't air conditioned. We had large fans during the summer time, and steam heat during the winter.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. So what was the job at Dow? What was that like? The internship.

John Overly:Yeah it was just the lab assistant. Basically I worked about ... How many hours? A couple of hours a day I guess in the afternoon.

Scott Hinshaw:So you were paying for school on your own?

John Overly:I was yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. Let's turn back to UNCG. Did you have any favorite professors or classes? And that doesn't have to be in your major or not. It could be school wide.

John Overly:I did, yes. First year I had a wonderful instructor in chemistry, Marguerite Felton. She was just a really nice person, and a very good 00:15:00instructor. Unfortunately, she was not a very healthy person. About 10 years later she died, but I had a wonderful quirky North Carolina history professor, Blackwell Robinson, have you heard of him?

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. By his books.

John Overly:Yeah. He was quite a kooky guy. He wore saddle oxfords, you know what they are?

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah.

John Overly:And he smoked in class.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah of course.

John Overly:Of course. We had a classroom over in the McIver building, and I remember this so well, he would smoke his cigarettes and then toss his butts out the window.

Scott Hinshaw:Oh no.

John Overly:And I guess he was getting near the end of his tenure. He sort of 00:16:00did his classwork on ... He had the pattern set down. But he had so many interesting quirky little side stories about people and places in North Carolina. He was fascinating.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah I remember when I was here, I had probably 80% to 90% of my classes in McIver. And almost all the chalkboards said, "No smoking please." Which at that time I think it wasn't allowed on campus really other than outside the buildings. So I wonder when that transitioned happened. I think we've probably written on that somewhere in one of our blogs or something.

John Overly:It was still going on throughout my years here. I can remember that 00:17:00very vividly. That was not unusual for the professors to smoke. The students didn't.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah we have lots of scrapbooks from Woman's College days where a lot of times their first cigarette butt is in there too. That was a big deal for them I guess and they probably weren't supposed to be doing that on campus either.

John Overly:And the big problem was finding a restroom, and there were men's restrooms in McIver because of the male professors and teachers and whatnot.

Scott Hinshaw:Well that's an interesting question, I guess in a classroom building the restrooms are the restrooms. But were there places on campus where it was hard to find a men's restroom, or your facilities were obviously second thoughts?

John Overly:The only two places I can remember was the library's men's restroom was in the basement of course. I guess it's gone now, or they refurbished it.

Scott Hinshaw:You mean the one on the hallway to Jarrell? Or the one underneath the portico, right? I think it's still there. I'm not sure. It's a weird one, I don't go down that way much. It's kind of creepy down there.

John Overly:But in the stacks there were a couple of unisex-

Scott Hinshaw:Right just single. Yeah.

John Overly:Bathrooms. You just shut the door and lock it when you get in. The gym, they had converted some of the ladies' rooms to men's use, and the shower area too. Those were being converted.

Scott Hinshaw:Now is this the same area where the pool was, the Rosenthal pool?

John Overly:Yeah that was the older-

Scott Hinshaw:When I was going it was on a different floor from the ladies' changing room. So you had to go up some stairs ... It was very convoluted. So I wonder if that happened after you were here, or you have any memory of that.

John Overly:Yeah it must have, because I can remember there was ... I did take one swimming class, and there was quite an ordeal getting to the changing room.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah the ladies' changing room, you just walk right out into the pool. The men it was..

John Overly:It was down and around ...

Scott Hinshaw:I can't remember exactly but it seems like it was in the basement, or underneath it somehow. You had to go up some stairs.

John Overly:They may even converted that old registration area that I talked about earlier into changing rooms and showers and whatnot.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah maybe. I actually still haven't been all through that building. So it has a lot of nooks and crannies I think.

John Overly:Yeah that's been remodeled over the years too. Coleman I guess they tore down completely. That was the other, which was the newer gym at the very end. Because I had a golf class that was taught out of that area. There was a putting green and all that sort of thing. But that they totally tore down.

Scott Hinshaw:But now was the golf course still in existence there?

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah it was there, right? And it had more holes than it has now.

John Overly:It did, yeah. I think it was nine holes. Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. Okay. Were you involved in any extra curricular activities or clubs?

John Overly:Not really.

Scott Hinshaw:You were working, so ...

John Overly:Yeah I was working, and there weren't a whole lot of opportunities 00:21:00for men.

Scott Hinshaw:I can imagine.

John Overly:They were still geared towards women activities and traditions. It took a long time for that to phase out. The one thing I did enjoy was the National Repertory Theater used to come every year for about a month, and they had some name actors and actresses who participated. Then at the end of their stay they presented two or three plays. That was quite interesting. And as more and more men came on campus and into the drama program they had a lot more plays and musicals. I remember seeing My Fair Lady presented, and several other things.

Scott Hinshaw:This usually happened on evenings? Was there a certain time? Was it a Friday evening kind of a thing or do you remember? Did it have a set time?

John Overly:It was the weekends.

Scott Hinshaw:Oh it was the weekend, okay.

John Overly:Friday or Saturday.

Scott Hinshaw:Did you work on the weekends as well? Did you have to work on the weekends because you had classes during the week?

John Overly:When I worked at the library I did. But the working I did as a lab assistant on campus was only Monday through Friday, and the Dow Corning was Monday through Friday.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay so did you have fun things, or you ended up studying on the weekends for the most part?

John Overly:Mainly studying, yeah. I had my own little group of friends that we 00:23:00did things, and I actually met my wife at the public library.

Scott Hinshaw:Was she working there as well?

John Overly:She started in '64 when we had moved to the new building. I call it the new building, the Greene Street building.

Scott Hinshaw:Awesome.

John Overly:There were other friends of the library ... I didn't have many friends here at UNCG. The women were sort of standoffish a bit, and the guys just sort of disappeared after class. There was a lounge set up for the guys, it was in Elliott, and it was the entrance that went out on Sterling Street at the 00:24:00time. There was a little room that they set aside as the men's lounge, you could go there and study.

Scott Hinshaw:And get away from the women.

John Overly:Yeah get away from the-

Scott Hinshaw:So I guess basically the rest of it was for the women, and you had at least a room of sanctuary there.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Do you know how that came about? Did male students ask for that? Or did they assume that y'all would need something like that?

John Overly:Clarence Shipton was the dean of men's students after a while. He was already working on campus in some position, but he was made dean of men's students and I think he sort of pushed that through so there'd be a place he 00:25:00could meet with the male students and get to know them. Just like you say, you'd have a place you could-

Scott Hinshaw:Call your own?

John Overly:Duck out.

Scott Hinshaw:You've talked a little bit about theater events, are there any other social or academic events that stand out in your mind during this time? Particular shows or speakers, Vietnam was going on about this time, so ...

John Overly:It was, but it was more in the latter part of the '60s. Because '63 of course JFK was assassinated, Lyndon Johnson became president, and then there was the whole big election in '64 with Goldwater and LBJ. I know LBJ didn't come 00:26:00through here, but his wife did. Lady Bird. She was on a train that stopped out here behind ... What is that building?

Scott Hinshaw:McNutt?

John Overly:McNutt, yeah. McNutt building. There are train tracks back there, and she was on one of these whistle stop tours. And as I recall I was there, but I don't think she was very well received.

Scott Hinshaw:Oh really? Wow.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. Was there a large showing there, a lot of people show up?

John Overly:Probably about several hundred.

Scott Hinshaw:Wow, that's pretty good.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:But what she had to say was not necessarily what people wanted to hear I guess.

John Overly:Yeah. Of course LBJ won an overwhelming amount, but anyway that was 00:27:00sort of interesting.

Scott Hinshaw:Anything else?

John Overly:No I can't think of anything right now.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. Let's talk a little bit about ... You touched on this, but there were a lot of campus traditions from Woman's College days. Of course some of those things, whether it was the fault of men or not, it depends on who you ask probably. But they started dying out about that time. It was also probably just the times, right?

John Overly:I think so, yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:So do you recall seeing any of these things happening, like Rat Day or Jacket Day or Ring Day? Was that going on?

John Overly:I think they were still having Jacket Day, because ... I can remember the girls going around in their different colored jackets. But that 00:28:00died out very quickly after that.

Scott Hinshaw:Was there an option for men to get a jacket? I know obviously the ladies' jackets were ladies' jackets, you wouldn't buy that.

John Overly:I don't think so. I don't recall. There could have been, but I just don't recall wanting one or caring. There were class rings still going on. They converted to men's rings. I don't know if the daisy chain still...

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah I think so. Again I think as we get into the '70s these things were dying out.

John Overly:That sort of fizzled out.

Scott Hinshaw:And of course, I assume if you're a guy that there's some things you're not allowed to do or you're not invited to do. And also you were a commuter town student is what they called them then I think right?

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Is that what you would have referred to yourself as, or as they called ... So you weren't living on campus, which I think makes it harder too.

John Overly:Right.

Scott Hinshaw:Did the guys have any traditions of their own that you know of? Or anything they did that was particular to them?

John Overly:I don't know.

Scott Hinshaw:Fair enough. Do you have any recollection of the Chancellor or any other administrator? You talked about the Dean of Men. But maybe James Ferguson or Mereb Mossman or Katherine Taylor. Any of the administrators of the university?

John Overly:I would see them once in a while. Chancellor Ferguson I knew more when I was working in the library, because he was a great user of the library and would come in all the time. But I didn't have any interaction with him as a 00:30:00student otherwise.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah I find from listening to a lot of these interviews, and it's true of me too, I didn't know that much about Moran when I was an undergraduate. A freshman or sophomore, even seniors, they just don't interact with the chancellor that much necessarily.

John Overly:No ... I think his office was in the Foust Building, and that was something you didn't really go over there for.

Scott Hinshaw:It was mainly administration at that time?

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. Can you tell me about your fellow students? What type of student attended UNCG at that time? And you can talk about men if you knew many of the other guys that were on campus, or you can talk more in general if you like.

John Overly:They seemed to be more coming from middle class families. There were 00:31:00a couple of students I knew pretty well, one was a coworker at the public library, Paul Dickson, and then another one was Tommy Contulist. Tommy was just sort of part time, he worked at the library too. And from the women that I encountered, they were mainly from middle class families. There was still a tradition of this being pretty much a teacher's college up until attaining coeducational.

John Overly:So many of them wanted to go into the teaching profession. And a lot of the classes were geared towards that. I don't know if you want me to talk 00:32:00about the chemistry department-

Scott Hinshaw:Oh yeah sure.

John Overly:But you know you hear people say, "The girls didn't want men on campus," and this that and the other. I never really had any problem with people ... I wasn't shunned or anything. When you're living in a dorm you're having a whole different set of activities that are going on.

Scott Hinshaw:Right. Yeah I also wonder if in the beginning there were enough men to ... Obviously there were some people who were against it, some people for it. But I wonder if maybe some of those feelings didn't happen until there was a larger number of men on campus, and then it becomes more pressing on other 00:33:00things ...

John Overly:It could be. The big alumni meeting every year was all women for years and years and years, so that may have had a bit of impact on what was going on. But things change.

Scott Hinshaw:So let's talk about, a little bit after you graduated, what were your career plans? What did you plan on doing?

John Overly:Luckily enough, that internship I had with Dow Corning, I was able to get a job with them. So I worked for Dow Corning here in Greensboro, they had a lab and a manufacturing facility out on Patterson Avenue which is just down below the Coliseum there.

Scott Hinshaw:Do they still have something there? There's a lot of sort of chemical and industrial stuff there.

John Overly:The last time I was by there, yeah they were still there. I don't know ... I worked for them from when I graduated, 1968 until 1973 where they decided they wanted to move the lab facility to Midland, Michigan. That was their main headquarters. Dow Corning was a corporation set up by Dow Chemical and Corning Glass, and they were mainly involved in silicone adhesives and lubricants. They had a medical division that was for breast implants.

John Overly:So they had their main headquarters in Midland Michigan, which Dow Chemical practically owns. But they decided that the economy was going downhill in '73 with the oil embargo and all that. So they decided they were gonna consolidate all the lab facilities at the main headquarters. And I didn't desire to go.

Scott Hinshaw:That would have been a big move, yeah.

John Overly:Yeah. My wife, at the time I had married the woman I met at the library, Sandra, and she had a good job. So we decided we weren't gonna transfer up there. I forget what we were talking about-

Scott Hinshaw:Well we were talking about what happened after UNCG.

John Overly:Okay well that's what happened.

Scott Hinshaw:This is interesting, I didn't know any of this about you, Dow Chemicals. So what did you do for them?

John Overly:I was what was called a development chemist. Here was mainly what they called their consumer products division, which was a very small facility. I don't know ... They were most noted for these little sight saver tissues for cleaning your glasses, and bathtub caulking compound. But they wanted to diversify, so they got into ... Well maybe we could make a carpet cleaning product that incorporated a silicone compound that would resist soiling and this 00:37:00sort of thing.

John Overly:And a big product that they spent a lot of money on was, they called it Pan Shield, which was a liquid you coated your frying pan with which made it stick free.

Scott Hinshaw:Right, so this is pre-Teflon.

John Overly:Yeah. Well, Teflon was around-

Scott Hinshaw:Or a competitor I guess.

John Overly:But they were trying to compete with it. They couldn't compete with DuPont, so that was sort of what we were piddling with in the consumer product area. But they didn't have their heart into it. They were mainly geared toward the manufacturing here, with their lubricants and their adhesives and that sort 00:38:00of thing. The aerospace industry and stuff. So I didn't continue with them after...

Scott Hinshaw:Wow, that sounds pretty interesting though.

John Overly:'73, yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:You mentioned your wife there, when did you get married?

John Overly:'71.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. And she had a job here, that was part of the reason you didn't move, so what did she do?

John Overly:Yeah she was working at the Greensboro Public Library. She worked there for 42 years.

Scott Hinshaw:Oh wow.

John Overly:That's the only job she ever had.

Scott Hinshaw:All right.

John Overly:She was downtown, and then she worked at the various branches around town.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay, so that was a good job then.

John Overly:It was, yeah. At the time it was good working for the city. The benefits were good.

Scott Hinshaw:Did she happen to go to Woman's College or UNCG?

John Overly:No she went to, what's that school in Bristol that she went to ... 00:39:00Sullins College, a two year college. And then she finished up at High Point College.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. Yeah a very different place now.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:I don't know if y'all have been over there recently.

John Overly:Oh yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:They've grown a lot.

John Overly:Yeah they grown a lot...she's always getting calls wanting her to donate.

Scott Hinshaw:I bet. Okay. So you were at Dow from '68 to '73, and then what happened after that? Is that when you started working at UNCG?

John Overly:No I was out of work for a good two years. I had little part time jobs here and there but they never did work out. And then finally I had put in my application here at the university, in '75. Because there was a job in 00:40:00circulation that looked sort of interesting. But I didn't get a call, so I'd sort of given up on getting a position here. And finally in '76 I got a call, it was mid-January, from Mildred Carr who was the head of circulation, asking if I was interested in an evening position. It was essentially working the weekends and Monday and Tuesday during the day. So I said, "Sure, yeah." At the time I was desperate, I needed a job.

John Overly:So I came over and interviewed, and Teresa Needham, you know Teresa, she's always laughing about my wearing my skinny tie for the interview.

Scott Hinshaw:This is Teresa Allen now?

John Overly:Yeah. Teresa Allen.

Scott Hinshaw:So she was there too at that time. Was she in the library?

John Overly:Yeah she had been there about a year. She was working in the billing department in circulation, she had been there about a year. She told her buddy in the office, "Miss Carr'll hire him, he's so nerdy looking."

Scott Hinshaw:Whatever it takes, right? You got it.

John Overly:That's right, I got it.

Scott Hinshaw:So that was your first job here. I don't know if you want to talk about all the jobs you had here, I don't know how many times you switched, I've been at the library for a while and I've had many jobs here. I don't know if 00:42:00that's the same course you took.

John Overly:Let me back up a bit and let's sort of talk about the chemistry department here-

Scott Hinshaw:Oh sure yeah.

John Overly:Because they were going through quite a bit of change at that time. I think I mentioned earlier that a lot of classes were geared toward the teaching profession, and giving the students sort of a balance of coursework. But at the time they had just gotten in a new department head, Dr. Walter Pewterbough and he was making drastic changes in the whole chemistry department curriculum, and the teaching staff was changing quite a bit.

John Overly:So the former head Dr. Florence Shelburne, I think that was her name, had sort of been ... I can't say booted out, but she had been retired. And she was teaching the last remnants of the courses that were devoted to folks going into the high school profession. But Dr. Puterbaugh, he was an organic chemist and he started adding quite a few new faculty members and expanding the course curriculum and whatnot. And I worked two years as a lab assistant in the chemistry department, which occupied the third floor of the old science building 00:44:00before they got their new building.

Scott Hinshaw:Much needed new building.

John Overly:Yeah really. During that time Dr. Bedon, my advisor, died under strange circumstances. So I was given another ... I guess Dr. Puterbaugh became my advisor at that time. He hired quite a few new faculty members in the organic chemistry are and the physical chemistry area, and the inorganic. So the department expanded quite a bit, and that's when they switched over and offered either a BA or a BS. It was about '66, '67. Since I was already in the BA 00:45:00program I for some reason didn't have the opportunity or the wherewithal to switch to a BS.

Scott Hinshaw:Do you recall how different those tracks were? Was it a case of you had already taken ... You would have had to stay longer to graduate.

John Overly:I would have, yeah. I was still on the old catalog where you started out with all the general courses in math and history and whatnot. They didn't ease into the BS courses until it was almost '68 when I graduated.

Scott Hinshaw:It was pretty late, yeah.

John Overly:And then since we were a university now, they started offering a master's degree in chemistry too. So that expanded the department quite a bit. But I can remember there was this vast storeroom down at the end of the hall, and they had all this equipment that was geared towards the old curriculum that they were just dumping-

Scott Hinshaw:Oh wow.

John Overly:Yeah. All these flasks and Petri dishes and condensers and whatnot. Because the whole lab routine was going to change, and they were going to offer a lot more practical courses for the modern science. There was one professor Dr. 00:47:00Marble and I think you may have a collection of hers in the archives, Gertrude Marble. And she looked like her name sounded. She was really a stern ... She taught analytical chemistry, and you had to be very precise in your calculations, and she wouldn't let us use calculators. We had to use logarithms to figure out the precise amounts of whatever. And I saw a lot of female 00:48:00students go crying from her class because she was so stern.

Scott Hinshaw:Did you think she was a good teacher though?

John Overly:She was.

Scott Hinshaw:A lot of time stern teachers are good teachers.

John Overly:She was an excellent teacher. In fact it's so funny, I kept my old analytical notebook that she made us all keep to do our calculations in, where I figured out things with logarithms. I don't, do they even teach logarithms nowadays, I don't think so.

Scott Hinshaw:I took the minimum amount of math possible, and I was not in the sciences so I didn't have to take a whole lot.

John Overly:But she just thought calculators will never last.

Scott Hinshaw:Oh it's a fad, huh?

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Well it's good to be able to do it the other way too, right?

John Overly:Well I don't know that I could do it now, but yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:So do you think any of that change ... You had your internship though with Dow before that change, right? Before Puterbaugh came? Or did you get it?

John Overly:It was about the same time, yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay so maybe-

John Overly:I'm not sure exactly when he was hired, but I think it was '64 or '65, just as I was coming in.

Scott Hinshaw:So that may have helped you get the job with Dow later on as well. For sure.

John Overly:Yeah they probably were reaching out to the various, to A&T and to UNCG for student help. They didn't call it an intern program, it was sort of like a co-op program.

Scott Hinshaw:Did you get credit for it as well?

John Overly:No.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. Interesting, that's real world experience while you're getting your degree, that's great. That's the kind of stuff that students need now too.

John Overly:And I think a lot of departments probably changed around that time.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah less teacher education focus, more hard sciences, if you're in the sciences, practical applications. Rather than theoretical teaching. Anything else from chemistry or UNCG in general you want to talk about before your jobs?

John Overly:No I guess that probably is enough.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. I'll give you another chance at the end, so you can talk about anything you want at the end. So we were talking about how you got hired at UNCG at Jackson Library.

John Overly:Yes.

Scott Hinshaw:And then I was asking you what jobs you had at UNCG, and I don't 00:51:00know if you want to list them or talk chronologically, or ...

John Overly:Yeah I started out with the weekend supervisor's job, which I worked Friday night, Saturday night, Sunday night, I think it was from 3:00 til midnight. Then Monday and Tuesday I worked during the day.

Scott Hinshaw:Oh wow so it's not the same hours... yeah that's quite a switch.

John Overly:It was mainly, I was the desk supervisor because I worked the desk all during the ... Was it 3:00 to midnight? That doesn't seem right. Yeah I guess it was. Anyway I would come in and work the circulation desk during those 00:52:00night hours, then during the day I had stack duties and worked the desk two hours a day.

Scott Hinshaw:And how long did you do that job?

John Overly:That lasted about a year, then Jim Driggers who was the weeknight supervisor left, and I applied for his job because my weekend job was just a Library Clerk III. Then Jim left and he was the Library Assistant, so obviously it was more as far as salary. And we had had our child in December of '76, so 00:53:00those were better hours for the family. That's when I worked Monday night through the week from 3:00 to midnight. I guess I started on Sunday.

John Overly:I guess Sunday on the weekend job I came in at 1:00 because I opened up the library and then worked to 9:00. Then when I was weeknight supervisor I started at 3:00 on Sunday and worked through Thursday, 3:00 to midnight. I had that job for again about a year, and then Joanna Wright who was the student 00:54:00supervisor left and I applied for her job. That was a Library Assistant II, so again it was more money and better hours. Of course I say more money, you know how it is with the state.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. Oh I do.

John Overly:Not that much more. But anyway that's when I started training students. I was the stack and desk student supervisor, so I trained both. And I had a couple hours of desk duty, but mainly it was wrangling the students and training and scheduling.

Scott Hinshaw:Do you remember about how many student workers you had at that time? Which you were responsible for?

John Overly:There were a lot. It was probably 50 or 60.

Scott Hinshaw:And at this time the library, was it still patrons would come in and somebody would have to get the books for them? Some of the stacks were closed? Or were they open stacks now?

John Overly:No, they were never closed. That was the initial intent I think when they built the tower, it would go to closed stacks. Because we had this conveyor system that never worked properly.

Scott Hinshaw:The air tubes? Oh and the book conveyors, yeah. I do remember that.

John Overly:Yeah. You know the idea was that there would be somebody stationed on each floor in the tower, and they would retrieve the books and send them down 00:56:00for the patron ...

Scott Hinshaw:I had forgotten about the rollers.

John Overly:Yeah. That come clanging out behind the circ desk there. But that never did really work out, so we never had closed stacks. Except for special collections and that sort of thing. And we had to take, at that time Martha, you remember Martha don't you? Martha Ransley. She was the head of the reserve division, and she was also coordinating the student supervisor and the student help. We got student aid kids, what was that program called ... But Martha 00:57:00insisted that we take everybody that student aid sent us on that program, and some of those kids were just really dreadful to deal with.

John Overly:And then we got to hire on a departmental budget ... I guess it was the work study

Scott Hinshaw:Work study, yeah. It might have been called something different.

John Overly:That's what I was trying to think of, work study. But we pretty much had to take everybody student aid sent us, because it was basically free money. But some of these kids only got six or eight hours a week, and it was just terrible to deal with-

Scott Hinshaw:It's not enough to ... Yeah.

John Overly:You know, just trying to schedule them is just awful. I think all 00:58:00that has changed now.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah I mean we still have work study students for sure, but certainly they're not limited to so few hours now. Because you're right, at some point you're training, and if they're not there enough they're not doing enough to warrant the training.

John Overly:Yeah really. And you know we had to work out a weekend schedule for students, so if somebody had an appointment of six hours a week, you dropped off an hour for weekend work so they were only there five hours during the week. I think Martha finally had a talk with the head of student aid, said we need to at least have them for eight to ten hours for four months. So I think that changed a bit. That's what I did for I don't know how many years, but Mrs. Carr had left 00:59:00by then, and that's when Doris came in as the head of circulation. She had a whole different philosophy of circulation, and we saw a lot of changes.

Scott Hinshaw:Now this is Doris Hulbert who would later become head of the library.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. Okay and how long were you there in that job, and what was your next job?

John Overly:Then I moved on to, gosh I don't know how many years I was there. Must have been ... whenever this position was created as a computer type. When we went more to automation and I started handling the equipment that was coming 01:00:00in for automation, and we got our first PC.

Scott Hinshaw:This was probably early '80s you think?

John Overly:I think so. I think our first PC was bought in '82 or '83, the old IBM gray box. I remember very vividly when we bought that, it only had two floppy disks, we didn't have a hard drive, and it was the little gray amber screen.

Scott Hinshaw:Right, monochrome.

John Overly:And it was like $6,000. And then because the software packages used 01:01:00so much space, we had to buy a hard drive. A 3MB hard drive. It was a huge box, and it was like $3,000. Then we had to have a printer, and it was one of those daisy wheel printers. Do remember those?

Scott Hinshaw:Oh yeah.

John Overly:You know the clickity clackety clickety clackety. And it was another $1,500. I remember Tom Minor and I, Tom Minor was the associate director or assistant director, second in charge or whatever. He found out there was some deal on a printer, and we drove somewhere out in the country and picked up this daisy wheel printer for like $1,500, $1,200. So that first unit was about 01:02:00$10,000. That was the only library computer, except for the OCLC terminals that were being used, in cataloging. M300s or something like that I think they were called.

Scott Hinshaw:So did you get trained for that on the job? Is it something you knew ... Okay.

John Overly:Yeah it was just pretty much, I just read up on it. There were a few classes I took, McNutt had a few computer classes, they were getting into it. I remember we went over there, for some reason Mrs. Carr went with me. I don't 01:03:00know why, because she had no technical expertise at all. But they were still using those big ... I don't know, they were almost like LPs as floppy disks. Then they shrank down to a 5 1/4", then the little three whatever. Then I think I took a few courses out at GTCC.

John Overly:Then there were conferences we went to, and there were classes you could take there. But it was pretty much on the fly training.

Scott Hinshaw:Right. Everybody was starting out with these.

John Overly:Yeah, yeah. I wanted to get a sound baffler for the printer and 01:04:00Doris said we don't have the money, so I just made one out of a big cardboard box. I stuffed foam around it. Because it was quite noisy. Of course then we got into CDs and whatnot. But that was my ... I forget what the position was called, but Doris was my supervisor. She was still the assistant director when Tom Miner left, and Dr. Thompson was still here as the director, so she was my immediate supervisor.

John Overly:That was the position I was still in, it morphed into other things. 01:05:00April became my supervisor, and then-

Scott Hinshaw:April Wreath, right?

John Overly:Yeah April Wreath. And then Tim Bucknall was hired, and Keith Buckner was helping me out in that position. We sort of morphed into Tim's outfit, and April, I guess she was ... Betsy Newland retired, and I just say where Betsy Newland died. She was like 97, 98 years old. But April went into the head of cataloging, was brought in from Chapel Hill as head of cataloging. Then 01:06:00she was made automation supervisor or whatever. Then that's when I started reporting to her.

John Overly:Saw many changes over the years, we went from IBM cards to ...

Scott Hinshaw:The IBM cards you're talking about the punch cards?

John Overly:Yeah. Remember those?

Scott Hinshaw:Well I remember ... They weren't in use when I was there, but they were still in the books. Then we finally decided ... I don't know why, we had to keep them for so long but finally the decision was made we could start tossing these things.

John Overly:So much effort put into placing them in the books.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah but for a long time we had to keep them in the pocket.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:So tell me about, you worked with the computer systems for the majority of your career really.

John Overly:Yeah pretty much.

Scott Hinshaw:So in the beginning what were those computers being used for? Just 01:07:00so people will know. Like when you had that one computer ...

John Overly:Nobody wanted to do anything with it, so I sort of took it onto myself to get some software. I did the student payroll on it. Of course Microsoft had Word, but people found that hard to use so we got WordPerfect, and that was a little more user friendly. There was a SuperCalc program that was spreadsheet. There was one I really liked, but I can't recall the name of it. 01:08:00That's what I did student payroll on, it made it really easy to enter the student hours and the amounts and whatnot.

John Overly:And then finally a new head of acquisitions came in, and he wanted an Apple. And we got one of those little Apple Macintosh, I think it's the unit with everything was all together, the keyboard and ... I never did use that much. I still used the IBM. Then of course the IBM, you had a data disk and a 01:09:00software disk, and you had to keep shifting back and forth until we bought computers that had an onboard hard drive.

Scott Hinshaw:So when was the change when people started getting ... It started to be the norm for everybody to have a computer? That had to be a gradual change. You said cataloging had their terminals for OCLC for cataloging.

John Overly:Yeah that was for years, and OCLC kept upgrading them so we kept getting newer versions of the workstations. But it was probably ... Not until the '90s. Maybe mid-'90s that people started getting them for their-

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah when you get closer to the internet age.

John Overly:Desktop, yeah. I can't right now recall ... When did you start?

Scott Hinshaw:I started as a student in '99. Started as a student worker.

John Overly:So did we have-

Scott Hinshaw:Was that right? No. Started as a student worker in '97, and as a staff member in '99. Yeah. And yeah definitely by then it was the norm.

John Overly:You worked in circulation didn't you?

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah I started in circulation. Actually my first job was library clerk III.

John Overly:Okay. So did people have computers on their desktops by then?

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. Sure.

John Overly:That's what I was thinking.

Scott Hinshaw:That was pretty much the norm at that point.

John Overly:It was early '90s that we started ... Of course the price of them dropped drastically. And we started getting computers on state contract, which made them even cheaper. But we had to go through all the wiring in the building, 01:11:00and getting it hooked up to the campus network. Wow.

Scott Hinshaw:So you were involved with the opac, online public access catalog for the library, for the computer storage, for all that, were you involved with any of that kind of stuff later on when we got systems ... I forgot what some of the earlier systems were, but had Sirsi and Dynix.

John Overly:Yeah DRA was our very first integrated online system. We had that for quite a while. Because DRA was bought out by SirsiDynix ... So yeah I was 01:12:00involved and had to constantly be upgrading equipment and the hard drives, printers, terminals, that sort of thing.

Scott Hinshaw:I think we've kind of covered some of these questions I had out just in talking. Do you want to talk about ... Again you've talked about some of these people, some of the librarians you've worked with Jim Thompson, Doris Hulbert, Rosann Bazirjian, anybody else? Tim? Talk about Keith if you want, you 01:13:00and Keith worked together for many years.

John Overly:Oh yeah. Keith was great to work with. We had a wonderful rapport-

Scott Hinshaw:And this is Keith Buckner, do you remember when he started?

John Overly:I do not. I think it was sometime in the '80s. Because he had all those copiers, we had those photocopiers in the basement. He sort of started out as the overseer of the photocopiers, and ordering supplies and that sort of thing. And he worked the circulation desk too, he was all part of circulation. I 01:14:00was trying to think when he switched over to helping me with the computer set ups and installing equipment and whatnot.

John Overly:It was like mid-'80s, late '80s, early '90s, something like that. Because he also had to handle all that bill changer, that monstrosity bill changer down in the basement. He had to handle the collecting of the change from all the photocopiers and seeing that the bill changer was stocked with money and whatnot. That was quite an ordeal.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah there were always problems with the photocopiers. Not because of him not doing his job, but it was the nature of it.

John Overly:Yeah it's just they got so much use. It was amazing.

Scott Hinshaw:And I don't know when the last time you went to the library, but now we've changed over to scanners for the most part. We still have a few copiers, but now students all want to scan their images, and they can email it to themselves or they can put it on a flash drive. So it's all part of the evolution of how people use the library has changed with technology.

John Overly:Yeah that makes sense. Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:And they love that.

John Overly:I'm sure they do, yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Also they don't have to pay for it, it's free. Well I mean they have to pay student fees of course which covers it, but not a per page kind of a thing.

John Overly:Yeah. I loved working with Keith, he was great. We just let the problems roll off.

Scott Hinshaw:So for a long time I guess you might have been the sole guy, and then sounds like Keith sort of came on and helped you out, then you had some 01:16:00help with other things, right?

John Overly:Yeah. Because I remember when we had to upgrade the memory of the OCLC work stations, and OCLC was gonna charge us a fortune to upgrade it. So I told Doris, "I'll just buy the chips and install them on the boards." She said, "Can you do that?" I said, "I don't know til I try." So I just bought these tubes of chips and inserted them on the motherboard to boost the memory. 'Course nowadays they all come in as part of everything. At home I still have a tube of chips ...

John Overly:It's amazing, the technology changed so quickly in 20 years. It's 01:17:00just remarkable. The computer really made a lot of library work obsolete. And the internet's made the other half obsolete.

Scott Hinshaw:I'm thinking of some big changes, like it sounded like the library decided it was important to get a computer like early on, it was so expensive and everything, but even before people had a good idea of what to do with it.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:Like you said nobody wanted to use it at first, and now nobody would come to work if you didn't have a computer there.

John Overly:Yeah it's amazing. I always tell the story about Teresa was using this old calculator that you pull the crank.

Scott Hinshaw:Oh wow, adding machine type thing?

John Overly:Yeah adding machine. I went to Mrs. Carr and said, "Can't we buy an 01:18:00electronic calculator? They're only $99 or something," at that time. "Oh no, that's way too expensive, we can't possibly afford that." I thought well, this is the way things are gonna be going. Luckily she retired, and didn't have to put up with a lot of stuff ... But it's amazing how quickly everybody got used to using computers. Wouldn't come to work if you didn't have one nowadays.

Scott Hinshaw:Well and as you said the cost came down and capacity went up.

John Overly:Oh yeah and the computing power skyrocketed. Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:All right. Is there anything else you want to talk about in the library realm?

John Overly:I just really owe the library a lot. It created my career, which was at a low ebb. So I really appreciate everything that was done for me. And people are always complaining about working for the state, but the state pension is wonderful. Always hang on to it.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. Well we're at the conclusion section, which you talked about this a little bit before, but can you tell me how UNCG's affected your life and what it means to you? Obviously the library...

John Overly:It gave me my career, yeah. I didn't know at the time that it was gonna be my career, but yeah definitely. It was a great place to work.

Scott Hinshaw:We're doing these interviews as part of the 125th anniversary of the university, which is an excellent opportunity for reflection, but also helps us to think about where we're headed in the future. So my question to you is what is the future for UNCG, and where do you see UNCG going as an institution in the next 25, 50 years?

John Overly:All you have to do is look over here on what used to be Lee Street.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah not too long ago.

John Overly:That's right. It's grown tremendously. I can't see that it's going to do anything else but grow even more. I think it's still one of the best bargains as far as education, my daughter went here and we paid for her to stay on campus-

Scott Hinshaw:What did she major in?

John Overly:Computer science.

Scott Hinshaw:All right, very good.

John Overly:I think it's gonna be a mighty force in Greensboro.

Scott Hinshaw:That's a good program too. That's in the business school I assume?

John Overly:Yes it is.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah. That's great. I don't have anything else to ask you, is there anything at all that we missed that you want to talk about, you can go back to anything you want to talk about, if you wanted to elaborate, or ...

John Overly:I'd just like to maybe say a few things about the library.

Scott Hinshaw:Sure.

John Overly:When I was a student here, I don't think I mentioned anything except seeking out the bathroom, but the whole arrangement of the library was of course quite different than it is now. But it was basically the older section, and it 01:22:00had a wonderful lounge area as you came in the front door. There was this lounge with this huge picture window that looked down Walker Avenue. Which was a wonderful seating area and reading area, and a gathering place for a lot of the students.

John Overly:And the stack area was sort of concentrated in the middle of the building, and I remember for reserve reading we went up to the second floor, which was this vast area where special collections is now. It was quite open, and it was an interesting place. I don't ever remember there being a lack of 01:23:00resources. You're thinking this is the '60s.

John Overly:I think this is ... The chemistry library was created where all of the chem abstracts and the journals were moved over to the department so they would be more convenient for the chemistry students, and that was nice. That was a nice study area. Initially I think the library was sort of reluctant to give up control of that, but it was the best thing to do and I think there were other off site libraries created.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah that's probably part of the same trend you were talking about in the chemistry department, changing from teacher education to more practical science...

John Overly:You need more research.

Scott Hinshaw:And other universities have libraries where the people are. Where the departments are.

John Overly:And as you got more and more professors who were in the different 01:24:00areas of research, they needed to have these resources close by. 'Course nowadays everything's on the internet, but then you had to go to the actual physical volumes to look up items. So that was quite a big deal. But I always remember the library was a nice facility to come to, nice study area.

Scott Hinshaw:So you spent a lot of time there as well.

John Overly:I did, yeah. This is something interesting, I don't know if they have them now, we had Saturday classes.

Scott Hinshaw:Oh wow, yeah.

John Overly:We had Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah that wouldn't fly now, would it?

John Overly:No.

Scott Hinshaw:So what was the thinking behind that?

John Overly:That's just the way it was. I guess that's just the way they had them set up. The classes didn't go beyond 12:00 on Saturday, but I can remember coming over here on Saturday. You were talking about what you did on the weekends, but yeah we had classes on Saturday.

Scott Hinshaw:Would those be more general courses, or would it be any across the curriculum?

John Overly:I think some of my chemistry classes were on Saturday.

Scott Hinshaw:So just the way it was done.

John Overly:Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw:I imagine there was a push from students probably professors as well at some point were like, "No. We want our whole weekend." You know, eventually.

John Overly:I guess. But you know it probably had been done for 50 years like that.

Scott Hinshaw:Yeah that was probably the tradition.

John Overly:Yeah. That's about all I can remember to say about that.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. Anything else at all?

John Overly:No I can't think of anything.

Scott Hinshaw:Okay. We'll stop there. Thank you very much.

John Overly:Okay, well thank you.

Scott Hinshaw:Sure.