Oral history interview with Betty Carter, 2018

Scott Hinshaw: Today is Thursday, May 17th 2018, and my name is Scott Hinshaw. I am at the home of university archivist emerita Betty Carter to conduct an oral history interview for the UNCG Institutional Memory Collection. Good morning.

Betty Carter: Good morning.

Scott Hinshaw: I'd like to start the interview by asking you about your background. Can you tell me when and where you were born?

Betty Carter: Yes. I was born in Mooresville, North Carolina, August 5th, 1941. Mooresville today is known as being the home of Lake Norman, but when I was there, it's just a little country town.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. And can you tell me about your family and home life?

Betty Carter: I have one brother. My parents were married in 1931. At first, they lived in Northern Mecklenburg County. Right after they married, they lived on a farm. I don't know whether they were tenant farmers, just a farmhand, or 00:01:00how that worked. Sharecropping, I don't know. But they did that for like two or three years. Eventually moved over to Wayne County, about 1938, and my dad went to work for Cannon Mills. Cannon Mills is a huge textile factory. He was part of that group of people who moved from the farms to the towns in the '20s, '30s, and '40s. They realized they could not make any money or a living growing cotton, so they moved. Even though it was low wages, at least it was sure wages. And so, my dad worked in the slasher room. Hot, hard work, labor. He worked there until he retired in the early '70s. My mother was a stay at home mom. They had a huge garden. My dad even grew cotton on his farm. He had about 15 acres. I 00:02:00still own most of that property.

Scott Hinshaw: Wow.

Betty Carter: That was his. I can't let it go.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, he worked hard for that.

Betty Carter: Yeah. So it was out in the country. Since you mentioned Hermann, I'll have to tell you a story. Is that okay?

Scott Hinshaw: Sure, of course.

Betty Carter: It took me a long, long time to admit that we were poor out in the country. I mean, we had as much as everyone else, but compared to today's standards, we were poor. So I told Harmon that one time, just within the last maybe 10 years or so. He said, "Betty", he said, "Did you always have a house to live in?" I said, "Yeah." Said, "Did you always have a place to sleep at night?" I said, "Yes." "Did you have food to eat?" "Yes." He said, "You weren't poor." It's all in the perspective.

Scott Hinshaw: Perspective, that's what I was going to say.

Betty Carter: Yes, as you know. I guess we didn't have a lot of money, but 00:03:00everything went well out in the country.

Scott Hinshaw: You didn't really want for anything.

Betty Carter: No, no.

Scott Hinshaw: That's good. What high school did you attend?

Betty Carter: Landis High School. Landis was a little town about five miles from my home. I went there grades one through 12.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay, yeah.

Betty Carter: Landis eventually consolidated with China Grove High School, and it is now called South Rowan. My mother always ... Well, first of all, neither of my parents graduated from high school.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure.

Betty Carter: Mama truly went to a one-room school house, uphill both ways walking, as you ... And I can remember my dad telling me that, he went to various schools, and he said that in the spring they always had to leave school early because they had to get out and plant the cotton. In fall, they always 00:04:00went to school late because they couldn't go to school until all the cotton was picked. But Mama kept telling me how fortunate I was to be able to ride a bus to school, and she kept saying, "You must graduate from high school." I know today, high school is ... I mean, everybody graduates from high school. That wasn't true in those days.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: But she said, "You graduate from high school, and then get something else after high school." She never did say what that something else was, but she did not want me working or my brother working in the mill.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. That's very good. Did you have any favorite subjects in high school?

Betty Carter: You know, I've thought about that. I'm not sure I did.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: I was not the science math person. I was more history English type. And also, I started taking piano lessons when I was in the second grade.

Scott Hinshaw: Wow.

Betty Carter: Music was always part of my life, from very early. I played for the glee club, you know, that sort of thing. But no, I'm not sure I had a 00:05:00favorite subject. I enjoyed it all, in all honesty.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, that's good. So, you said your mother said you had to go to high school and graduate, and then something else-

Betty Carter: Something else.

Scott Hinshaw: So, what was the something else? Did you go straight to college?

Betty Carter: Oh, I have a very checkered life after high school. Okay, let me just say first, Bobby, my husband and I were married right after high school.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: And that's shocking. My son still can't get over that, that we married so young. It was stupid, but it worked. And so I graduated from high school in '59. Remember, this is the time when the community college system in North Carolina had just been started, so you had a lot of little independent business colleges, and that's where my mother thought I should work in an office.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. Which was not unusual at that time.

Betty Carter: No. It was nice, clean, easier work than working in the mill.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure.

Betty Carter: That's the whole point. And so, Bobby and I went to King's College in Charlotte. It was a business college. We immediately, from high school, went to there. Stayed there for 18 months. Bobby took accounting. I took secretary type stuff. I can type 100 words a minute, and I can do shorthand 130 words a minute. So, that's what I learned to do, with accounting too. I'm not sure you want me to go on about ... shall I just continue my trek through college?

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, I think that's a good thing to do. Yeah.

Betty Carter: Okay. What happened is, I guess it's sort of like it is today, the four year colleges would not accept any ... you could not get a degree from the business colleges. You had to go to a four year college. And a lot of four year colleges would not accept the subjects that you had at the business college. 00:07:00Sort of like today, you know, you get from the community college subjects except in a four year college. I think it's easier now than it used to be. But anyway, Bobby decided he wanted a degree. The only place around that would accept the courses that he had taken at Kings was a school in Bowling Green, Kentucky. It is now connected to Western Kentucky University. But anyway, so we moved to Kentucky.

Betty Carter: I worked as a secretary while Bobby went to school and supported us. We lived in an apartment. And so, I had completed the work at Kings, and so Bobby got his degree in Kentucky, and so I decided I wanted to go to college too, a real college. So, Bobby was hired by the IRS and we moved to Raleigh, and I went to Meredith.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative), all right. All right.

Betty Carter: So again, here you run up against what are you going to major in. 00:08:00Well, they wouldn't accept any of my business courses, and so I didn't want to retake them. And so, the debate was between history and English. And so I did away with English, and so I majored in history. But on the side too, I was really thinking about piano, organ particularly. But what balanced it toward history was the IRS had a tendency to move people around, and so from town to town, I figured it would be easier for me to get a job teaching history than it would be to find a church that needed an organist.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: So, my major was history at Meredith. And then after Meredith, I went to Duke and got a master's in history.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. When did you start to think about becoming an archivist? Or did you-

Betty Carter: Never heard of being an arch-

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, right.

Betty Carter: I mean, I'm sorry, Scott.

Scott Hinshaw: No, that happens a lot I think.

Betty Carter: I graduated from Meredith in '66, I went to Duke fall of '66, and 00:09:00so completed all the coursework by '67. I had not done my thesis at that time. So, the summer of '67, somehow ... and I have tried my best to think about this. I don't know how I heard about the job, with the State Archives ... Not NC State, the State of North Carolina Archives. But somehow I heard there were two jobs there. And why, maybe they advertised it in the paper, I don't know. But anyway, I applied for a job with the state archives and got it, and that's ...

Betty Carter: So, I really started thinking about being an archivist in 1967 when I needed a job.

Scott Hinshaw: Right, yeah. Yeah, I think that still happens today. I think-

Betty Carter: And I fell in love with it.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: I still remember the first collection I processed. They have a huge private collection, manuscript collection there, in addition to state records and country records. So, I was in the private manuscript area. Loved it. 00:10:00Patterson family papers, still remember it.

Scott Hinshaw: Still remember it, yeah. And how long were you at the state archives?

Betty Carter: I was there from '67 to '71.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. And then what happened after that?

Betty Carter: In '71, Bobby was transferred to Greensboro with the IRS.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. So, not too far.

Betty Carter: Well no, not too far, but it was a long ways from the State Archives.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, you don't want to commute there. No.

Betty Carter: So, I had already tried to ... I had visited Bill Moore at the Greensboro Historical Museum, and fortunately Dr. Thompson, who was Director of Jackson, do you remember him? I can't remember when you came-

Scott Hinshaw: He was gone before I even started, I think, as an undergraduate.

Betty Carter: Okay.

Scott Hinshaw: So, yeah.

Betty Carter: So, Doctor Jackson was ... Dr. Jackson. Dr. Jackson was gone too.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: Dr. Thompson was there. And so, Dr. Thompson knew my supervisor in Raleigh. So, Mr. Coker in Raleigh referred me to Dr. Jackson. I'm still saying 00:11:00it wrong. Dr. Thompson. So, I had visited UNCG, talked to Dr. Thompson, talked to Emmy. Emmy Mills, did you know Emmy? I can't remember-

Scott Hinshaw: She was there during the time that I was an undergraduate, but I did not work there at that time, yeah.

Betty Carter: So, that's when I first met them in 1971. They knew they needed an archivist, and they knew that I had the qualifications to do the job, but budget. Didn't have anything. So, I'd said I would kep in touch with them, and then I went to the IRS and got a general job with the IRS, in the fall of '71. And so, finally, in the late 1973 ... Emmy and I kept in touch. I don't think I ever talked to Dr. Thompson again. But Emmy and I kept in touch. Fall of '73, there was money was going to be in the next year's budget and they were going to 00:12:00have money for archivist position, except it was going to be called Library Assistant.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: And so, I took a pay cut from the IRS to go back to UNCG, or go to UNCG.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: The other thing that threw it sort of out of kilter was I was seven months pregnant with Christopher, February 1st, when I started there.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: But that's how I got there.

Scott Hinshaw: So, what were your first impressions of UNCG as a school and campus? What did it look-

Betty Carter: I can't remember anything that really struck ... I mean, I had been to Meredith recently, I had taken courses in NC State, huge place. Had been to Duke, huge place. It was just, I really ... I guess in many cases ... I've 00:13:00tried to think about that after I saw your question, I don't remember thinking anything bad about it or good about it, and I knew that ... I realized that the papers that they had there in the archives were invaluable, though. Because they had the McIver's papers going back to the beginning of the school.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure.

Betty Carter: Boxes and boxes of them. So, that part I was really interested in and thought, "Oh, I can do this."

Scott Hinshaw: Can you tell me about what kind of shape they were in? Had they ever been processed?

Betty Carter: No, they had never been processed. They had been divided at one time. What they thought were personal records actually had gone to Maryland somewhere, with his daughter, or a relative. I can't remember.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure.

Betty Carter: Some of the other of those had stayed on campus. Now, the personal things then eventually came back to campus. Now, those were still tied up in little packets. That was good. I loved that.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: And that was-

Scott Hinshaw: Preserve original order-

Betty Carter: Right. I didn't do that. I couldn't do ... So, we had a set that had stayed there, and we had a lot of the professional, or his professional stuff. Then they had the personal stuff with him and Lula writing back and forth. So, it was fantastic. And of course, the Foust papers were less valuable than I thought they were because they just didn't cover what McIver had covered. I think in the beginning, it was so ... I'm really straying off course here.

Scott Hinshaw: No, that's fine.

Betty Carter: But the McIver's papers, I think in the very beginning, they realized that they were making history.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: And you had Dr. Gove, Who was very much trying to keep the archives, and some other people. And they just saved everything. Truly.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: So, that's one reason why McIver-

Scott Hinshaw: They had a sense of what they were doing, for sure.

Betty Carter: Exactly.

Scott Hinshaw: So, can you talk about the department as it was at that time. You talked about Emmy was there. Was it just you and Emmy?

Betty Carter: Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: We were upstairs on the third floor in the cage. Now, has the cage wire been taken down?

Scott Hinshaw: Yes.

Betty Carter: It has. Oh, that's too bad. It was just Emmy and me. I ... worked with Emmy with the special collections books, and I worked some with the papers. And so, it was just a ... nothing was really organized how much time I would spend here or here.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: We had two part-time retired librarians who came in like two afternoons a week. Marjorie Hood who had been ... does that ring a bell?

Scott Hinshaw: I know the name, yes.

Betty Carter: She had been in charge of circulation, or that's what it was called when she was there. And she actually lived practically on campus.

Scott Hinshaw: Oh really? Okay.

Betty Carter: You know where Theta Street comes [inaudible 00:15:49], up from the ... well, I won't go into that. But anyway, she was just right across from Elliott Center.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: And Miss Hood had been in charge of cataloging. No, that was Miss 00:16:00Hood. Miss Moose had been in charge of cataloging, so she came in a couple afternoons a week. And then we had student helpers, so it was just Emmy and me.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. That's-

Betty Carter: I can remember what ... and Emmy was still ... she would get all these catalogs from rare book dealers, you know? And she'd go through and check the ones that she wanted to add to the collection. And what we would do then, I would go to the stacks. First of all, I would look up the call number. Remember, no internet, nothing. This is all-

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: So, I would look up the call number and see if we had the book that she wanted, then I would go on the stacks and pull it.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Carter: And then I'd take it upstairs and Emmy would go do whatever needed to be done by processing it.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. There were quite a few in the general collection that should've been-

Betty Carter: Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: And that's way she got a lot of them. Emmy was-

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, we still get some that way.

Betty Carter: Oh do you, really?

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes Mark Schumacher will come up with one that ... or Carolyn maybe.

Betty Carter: Yeah. In the beginning, that's the way we got most of them, so ... because Emmy did not ... I got the feeling, or impression she didn't have that 00:17:00much money to spend.

Scott Hinshaw: Right, of course not. Yeah.

Betty Carter: But you know, that's the way it was. And it was just ... the one thing I remember thinking about, when I first came there, was at State Archives, I was the equivalent of what they call SPA positions on campus now. I was an archivist, too. When I came to Jackson Library, I had a master's from Duke in history, but I did not have an MLS.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: And I was made aware of it very quickly that I was not a professional. I can't believe that ...

Scott Hinshaw: Well, especially at that time, it was more ... it was not unusual for historians to be in those positions.

Betty Carter: That's right. I mean, as a matter of fact, the requirement at the State Archives, you will have a master's in history.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: And then you get to UNCG and tough. Tough. You don't count. But anyway, I got over it and stayed there, and thought, "Well, I'm going to show you."

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Carter: So, but that's one thing that I did not like. Going back to the when we were in the cage, sometimes Emmy, we would get maybe that many books on a shelf to be put ... reshelved. We would have to shift a whole range because we didn't have space.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: So, we were being involved in shifting. It was amazing how ... I don't think we even had a telephone up there.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. Yeah, very small department, a lot of work to do for just a couple of people.

Betty Carter: And the amazing thing, like I said, there were two full-time people and when I left I think there were either eight or nine, I can't remember.

Scott Hinshaw: Right, it had changed a lot. And since you're talking about that, what year was it you retired, or started ... did you do transitional retirement?

Betty Carter: No.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: No, I left in '10.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, 2010. Okay. Yeah. The department grew quite a bit.

Betty Carter: I was going to say, did they put in ... does the elevator going up to the third floor, is it smoother?

Scott Hinshaw: Its been redone, and it's actually smaller than it used to be. I don't know if you remember, they did renovations-

Betty Carter: Oh, I remember the old one very well. It was bumpy, and-

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, I think it is a little smoother, and a little more reliable. Actually a lot more reliable.

Betty Carter: Actually, I told you I was pregnant. Christopher came a month early, and Emmy always said that it was the bumpy elevator that ... I just thought I'd warn you.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. No, interesting side about that is did they ... at that time, because my mother, when she was a teacher, they wouldn't hold jobs for people when they went on maternity leave. Like you had to go back and reapply. Was that in play for your job?

Betty Carter: No, this is what happened too is, like I said, Christopher came a 00:20:00month early. He was due June 6th. If you recognize that date, I did that deliberately. The doctor had said he's supposed to either June 5th, or June 7th, and I said, "Can we make it June 6th?" But anyway, he came May 7th. So, I'm not sure how the maternity leave was supposed to be worked out, but at that time, everything went fine when Christopher got here a month early. He was okay. But I had a kidney stone, so that meant ... As a matter of fact, they had put me in the hospital with a kidney stone whenever I went into labor with Christopher. So, I had to have surgery when Christopher was five weeks old for a kidney stone.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, that's a lot.

Betty Carter: And so, then, in August, they had told me I was very fortunate. They knew what caused my kidney stone, but I'd had to have more surgery. I flipped out. I said, "No, no, no." But anyway, I had to have more surgery in ... 00:21:00So, my job was still out there. To answer your question, no. I went back part-time about October, and then the job was still there.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: So, I didn't know that they would not hold positions. I just thought it was ... interesting.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, that's just the way it was done is what she told me.

Betty Carter: No.

Scott Hinshaw: This was a public school system, different than universities, of course, but-

Betty Carter: Yeah, but still. Usually they follow pretty much the same-

Scott Hinshaw: But it does kind of tell you what's going on in society.

Betty Carter: Yeah, right.

Scott Hinshaw: You know?

Betty Carter: Well, I think that most places at that time would not have hired a pregnant woman.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. I was thinking about asking you about that, too. So, did they know?

Betty Carter: Oh yeah, I mean, yes. They knew. Either that or I was getting really ... like that.

Scott Hinshaw: Well, I didn't know if they knew you-

Betty Carter: Oh no, I told them right away. I had to.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: But they didn't care. The archives were more important.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. That's good. Can we talk about ... you've talked a little bit about the kind of job you had when you got there. Do you want to talk about 00:22:00the way your jobs changed over time? What your titles were?

Betty Carter: Oh, okay. That was interesting. They hired me as a library assistant. That's all they could get money for. That's the lowest on the totem pole at that time. I don't know what it is now. Eventually I was then promoted to be archivist I. And then archivist II. And then Darce pushed it through to be a professional whatever, library faculty, or whatever it's called. I don't even know what they're called, because it never made that much difference to me except it was nice to get the extra money.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). But there was the shift from SPA to EPA I guess is the-

Betty Carter: Yes, at the ... yeah.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: And in all honest, in the beginning I was ... my time was sort of split between Emmy and special collections book, and archives. But the rest of 00:23:00the time it was the same job. Now, as more people joined us and did more of the work, I did very little of the processing, which I missed.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. Yeah.

Betty Carter: And then with the Veteran's Project, more that, and more outreach in general for the archives.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure. I'd like to ask you a little bit about the way students used the library during your time. Can you tell me how the changes in the way students used the library affected your job? You've already talked about outreach.

Betty Carter: Yeah, outreach, that was always ... I was very fortunate. Well, let's see. I left UNCG in 19 ... okay. '75, we moved to Charleston.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Carter: So, I was away, came back then part-time in '80 ... the spring of 00:24:00'82, I think it was. And then I came back full-time in the fall of '92. So, there was a time there from '70 ... I left in '75. I was gone until part-time in '82 then came back full-time in '92. And so, you asked me about students. The main thing is students did not use the archives whenever I was there in the beginning. And they used the special collections very seldom. And that was the purpose that I saw that that had to be done. Emmy was not ... she knew her topics, she knew her books. But she wasn't type that would really push people to come in and use them.

Betty Carter: And I realized right away you had to go out and drag people off the street.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Definitely. Yeah, so most of your researchers early on, of course, were scholars or faculty, or people who knew you had this certain book, or this certain collection that were coming there for 00:25:00that, and that's what they were interested in.

Scott Hinshaw: So, what we had been talking about was changes in students, and how it affected your job.

Betty Carter: I must admit, I was reading your questions ... the way students used the library changed immensely. And the outreach for me, but then I also ... presentations. And that was for students, but it was for everyone else too. It was around the 100th anniversary, which was very fortunate for me as the archivist because people suddenly became interested in history.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. You get all kinds of questions.

Betty Carter: I found out that people at 10 years away from the school, they still don't care about history. 25 years, they're beginning to want their kids to see where they went to school. And of course, by the time they'd been out 50 years, history's wonderful.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. Perspective again, right?

Betty Carter: Perspective, right. And so, with the 1892 to 1992, that really 00:26:00opened doors. People wanted to learn the history about the school. And so, I did ... I made presentations everywhere, to anybody that would listen. And that really sort of helped me as far as getting the ... I have the very ...

Scott Hinshaw: We can take a shot of it, and put it in if you want.

Betty Carter: Okay. The very first presentation I did on campus was for the Association of Women Faculty and Administrative Staff. And on February 18th, 1991.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: So, if you know that is 100 years to the day when they were the legislature established the school. But you know, and I can remember the reaction to the ... I showed slides. People were just overwhelmed. It was just wonderful.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, a lot of things they hadn't seen and didn't know about, right? Yeah.

Betty Carter: Didn't know about, yeah. And so, that I have to give credit to the 100th anniversary for that, but the outreach by people learning to know that we 00:27:00had stuff that they could use for a paper ... faculty members didn't know it. And I dare say, even today a lot of faculty members do not know about the history of the school.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure.

Betty Carter: Because I remember back with the 50th anniversary of the sit-ins, we kept hearing people were shocked that there were white women there. You know? And again, you had to educate them, you know?

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. Well, we actually have students who come in. We do a lot more with students now, and we have classes that come in, and they ... students, just like you say, there's different levels. Some of them ... hopefully they've heard of the sit-ins, you know? We tell them about that, you start there. Then they usually know about the four men from A&T.

Betty Carter: Right.

Scott Hinshaw: But then many of them don't realize, one, it was a multi ... it didn't happen on one day and one time. It had to do it several days over a 00:28:00period of time. Sit-ins were not a one day thing. And then that ... students from WC, went there and sat with them.

Betty Carter: Right.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, or participated in other ways if they didn't sit there with them.

Betty Carter: Oh yeah. It's amazing, and it doesn't matter how hard you work, you always going to find people, "Really?"

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. Which is great though, too. I mean, it's not great that they don't know, but it's great that you're making a difference.

Betty Carter: You can explain it to them. But yeah, that was a ... you know, you got [inaudible 00:28:33] Jackson Library changed during my career, and I put two things ... First of all, I put money. I put dollar signs. The administration on campus became much more interested in raising money. I understand why, but it used to tick me off, but anyway.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: And then the next thing I put Google.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Carter: I mean, gosh. How did we do anything without Google? I have to 00:29:00tell you a story about the youth ... well, I think this is one you know. The next question is about the cultural events that took place, that I remember, that stand out.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure, if you want to go to that. That's fine.

Betty Carter: Let me tell you about the Woolworth's women.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: Okay. This was around the 40th anniversary, so it'd been 2000. We knew there was always the story that they were the three women, Anne Dierdsly, Vernon Marilyn Law, and Denise Siemens. Well, I went back through the Carolinian, I mean, for that whole year of 1960. Anne Dierdsly had written a column and she mentioned Betsy Toff had been with them. That was another WC woman. I had never heard of that. No one had heard of it. And everyone kept saying, "There were only three." And when I said, "Here's the Carolinian article written by Anne Dierdsly who was there.

Betty Carter: So, I tried to track down Betsy Toff. Okay, remember no Google. Nothing. So, I went to development people, say, "Did y'all ..." alumni people, 00:30:00anybody that who might have can track down Betsy Toff. No one could in the beginning. And then maybe two years later, I went back to them and they were able to track down Betsy Toff. She lived very near Marilyn Law in Northern Virginia. But anyway, what I'm getting around to ... And so, we wanted them, if possible, we thought it would be neat, we get them come to campus for that 40th anniversary. And so, I tracked down, got Betsy's telephone number, dialed it. "Hello?" "Betsy, this is Betty Carter. I'm at UNCG."

Betty Carter: There was this long silence. I thought, "Oh no, she's going to hang up on me." And then she said, "That's my alma mater." I said, "Yep." I said, "Where have you been?" But anyway, she and Marilyn, drove down in the snow storm for that February 1st, for the anniversary.

Scott Hinshaw: That's awesome. Yeah.

Betty Carter: I mean, those women were phenomenal. Anne Dierdsly, I finally ... She's the one that I interviewed in the machine, I think I told you ...

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: But anyway.

Scott Hinshaw: But you got it anyway.

Betty Carter: Yeah. But yeah, the outreach, getting people, make sure they know what you got.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Betty Carter: You want me to talk about also ...

Scott Hinshaw: You ready to move to that last question?

Betty Carter: Well, I was going to say the social cultural events.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay, yeah.

Betty Carter: The other thing I'm not sure people know we ... I did, I started doing. Each alumni, as they come in to celebrate their 50th anniversary, know that's a big deal.

Scott Hinshaw: Of course, yeah.

Betty Carter: That would always come to the archives, so I'd pull out everything relating to their years on campus, and so I worked with a lot of classes. Probably from class of '45, class of '50 gave us their class gift came to the archives. And so, on up to '55, classes of '55, maybe '56. I can't remember when we stop. And something, a presentation was given at the reunion weekend 00:32:00somewhere on campus. So, that was a big event. Again, we were covering the alumni, but we couldn't get to the students. Students weren't interested in history. You know, you got to find something that grabs them rather than ... Forget calling it history.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Right.

Betty Carter: You know, so the other thing, did you know Dr. Bardolph by chance?

Scott Hinshaw: I know who he is. I did not know him.

Betty Carter: You know.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: You know, well you don't know, but he came in the '40s. History department. And he was very interested in history at the school, and so on alumni weekend, he would always be on campus. Usually having some sort of program somewhere because when the girls were in school, they loved him. Everyone loved Dr. Bardolph. And the reason I'm telling you this, I can't remember when it was, but he'd always come by and we'd talk, and when he would be on campus particularly for alumni weekend. And I got this telephone call, and 00:33:00he told me, "This is Dr. Bardolph." I said, "When you coming? I want to see you." And he said, "I won't be there." I said, "Why not?" He said, "My memory is not like it used to be. And I don't want to confuse the girls. I don't want to upset them by calling them the wrong name."

Betty Carter: Well, I was in tears.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: I will never forget that telephone call.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, especially for a history professor.

Betty Carter: Yeah, but he did not want ... he was more concerned about upsetting the girls. Those 75 year old women, or 72 year old women. That was just ... Okay, sorry.

Scott Hinshaw: That's okay. No, it's great. Do you have any stories or impressions that you want to tell me about the other librarians and archivists that you worked-

Betty Carter: Dorris needs to be mentioned.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: Dorris is the one ... Dr. Jack ... I keep calling him Dr. Jackson. Sorry.

Scott Hinshaw: That's okay.

Betty Carter: Dr. Thompson, he knew we were there. But he really didn't ... didn't take a great interest in archives. He was more interested in books, and I understand that. That's fine. Dorris, we used to tease her that she could've been an archivist. She understood what we were doing, and tried to find money for us. She supported the Veteran's Project more than anyone did. And then of course, Dorris endured the move of cataloging and acquisitions upstairs, took all sorts of criticism.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. Veteran's Historical Project, which of course started out as the Women Veterans Historical Project.

Betty Carter: Right. I was just going to ... let's see if you got ... that's 1998, not 1988.

Scott Hinshaw: Oh, sorry.

Betty Carter: Just make ... I wish it were that old.

Scott Hinshaw: Sorry.

Betty Carter: I mean, we missed so many stories, if we'd only ... Be thankful for what you have.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. So, how did that come about?

Betty Carter: Well, I don't ... I have always been interested in World War II history. I've always been interested in world and European history more than I have American history. Women's history, now I'm very strong on that. Women are ... have been forgotten, ignored, and you know, I can get off on a high horse on that, but anyway. But the World War II, I was never able to pull World War II and women together. And it was in the late '90s, I kept hearing about veterans projects. And guess what? They were always men.

Scott Hinshaw: Of course, yeah.

Betty Carter: Yeah. So, and I remember ... I don't know whether they do this now, but they used to be ... libraries in the system have these little monthly 00:36:00newsletters, and sometimes they would get past at the libraries and be circulated among the staff. But I think it was the NC State library newsletter mentioned that they were doing a veterans project, and of course I mean, NC State, of course it's men.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: So, I start reading, and looking at veterans projects, saw about the WIMSA in Washington, the Women's Memorial, and I thought, "That's what we need to do. I can cover women's history, women from this school were joined up various units, but women's history, and I can pull my World War II interest in." 00:37:00And it just, I probably talked to Hermann about it, and I still remember ... I mean, if it were the school's back ... I mean, its history background, and it wasn't easy to get it done because again, though someone supported me, and I needed it, it was Dorris.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Scott Hinshaw: I wondered if obviously there would be WC alumni, who-

Betty Carter: There were some.

Scott Hinshaw: ... who served. Did you talk to them during the reunions events? Or did you find any source material for those events to use for it?

Betty Carter: Fortunately, back in ... I'm thinking it was 1992, yeah. They had had ... I'm not sure what they had done. It may have been ... I was not aware of it. But the Alumni House had asked that veterans, women veterans, send their uniforms to the alumni house for an exhibit.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: It was WAVES, mainly. And so, there was a little bit of knowledge out there about it. But I was able ... I can't remember where I got the mailing list, but I sent letters out, I'm thinking okay, '98, in early '98 I was working on it. The first luncheon was in November of '98.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: And the first interview was in January of '99. But I started working on trying to find people. And I know Dorris said, "How'd you get all these names?" I said, "If you get one name, that person's got a mailing list. I asked for their mailing list."

Scott Hinshaw: Right. So, do you remember how many people came to that first luncheon? Even before you had interviews, so-

Betty Carter: Yeah, Beth Ann has ... she can probably tell you. I don't remember. It was less than 100. But it was held in the Alumni House. And the 00:39:00ladies loved the Alumni House. It's so nice.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure. Yeah.

Betty Carter: I can still remember, I made Ned Harrison do ... remember him? He wrote for the news and record veterans column, but anyway he spoke for us that day.

Scott Hinshaw: That's great that you got people to turn out, even before the project had even-

Betty Carter: I know one of your questions there, was it difficult to get women veterans to talk. No. They were ready to ... have you ever been in a group of probably 92, 90 women? I mean, can you imagine?

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: But I remember I spoke that day, and I took a gray box, a regular gray box with me to speak, and I said, "It's your job to fill this box."

Scott Hinshaw: Oh, that's nice.

Betty Carter: They looked at me like I was weird, but anyway. And I told them, "You've got to save your history. No one else is going to do it." But yeah, we had like ... I think it was around 80, 90 people at that first luncheon.

Scott Hinshaw: So, it wasn't too hard to convince them that they were-

Betty Carter: Oh no.

Scott Hinshaw: ... their stores were worth hearing, and-

Betty Carter: You see, they've always thought they were worth it, but they always accepted well ...

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: You know, we even, when we started doing interviews, we wanted to interview the woman by herself. We never wanted her husband there. You know why?

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: He would take over. Because she would just sit there prim and proper and let him.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. Different time.

Betty Carter: You feel like yelling at her.

Scott Hinshaw: Different culture.

Betty Carter: Yes. As men had been used to this ... But you talk to men, everyone of them was either been on Iwo Jima, Mount Suribachi, or they were at Omaha Beach. I mean ...

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, right.

Betty Carter: But yes, some of the women just typed letters, but those letters were necessary.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure.

Betty Carter: But you know, it was ... administration, it wasn't that hard. Dorris supported, she believed in it from the beginning.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). That's great.

Betty Carter: Yes. Jolyn, who was the alumni director at that time, she helped. She was a great help. She helped me. I mean, can you imagine planning a luncheon for 80 people?

Scott Hinshaw: Right. And contacting-

Betty Carter: I was wanting to have a dinner. She says, "No. No, you shouldn't have a dinner. Ladies that age do not like to get out at night. They're afraid they will fall." Yes, that's what we are afraid we'll fall at night. So, you know, it was just little things like that, you know, she was so helpful. So, everyone wanted to help.

Scott Hinshaw: That is great.

Betty Carter: And I think everyone was shocked that it worked.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: But it was the women. They were ready to talk, and they were ready to ... whatever they could do, they wanted done.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah, that's great.

Betty Carter: Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw: So, how did the project evolve over time?

Betty Carter: Well, adding more women, you know, you wanted to have WC women, and you had to sort of just go with the flow. A lot of people thought it was just a WC project. No, you have to keep telling people it's the State of North Carolina project of-

Scott Hinshaw: It's a lot of education with this.

Betty Carter: Yeah, a lot ... exactly. And you know, as you add more wars, we'll always have plenty of people to interview. I'm sorry. But World War II, Korea, 00:42:00Vietnam, you just ... we still use, I think they're still using the basic questions that we had from the beginning. I'm not real sure, but that's one way you could always expand it.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Carter: But they were never afraid to talk. But again, it's more outreach too. Getting people to understand that women contributed. And so now, I've always listened whenever they talk about historical military things, they wall say, "Men and women." Used to be they didn't say women, they'd said men.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: So, I'm always pleased. I take credit for it, but it's not ... I mean, it's lots of credit, you know I'm just being silly.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. And so, can you describe how you think the project ensures that the story of women in war is being told? One thing is you mentioned you see things now women are mentioned along beside men.

Betty Carter: Yeah. I think also this project, in my mind, is recognized because 00:43:00first of all, it is based in an academic institution. Now remember, most of those ... I shouldn't say most, but a lot of the World War II women did not go to college before they went to the military. And they still view it like this a college that's interested in what I did. And I'm so pleased for them because yeah, we're interested. You were important.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: So, you know, it's an academic institution, I'm not really ... I'm really big on paper and words. I'm not really big on statues and whatevers.

Betty Carter: The women seemed to be happy, so I'm hoping that they approved how its been preserved. And that its been preserved accurately.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. The luncheons are one of my favorite events that we do.

Betty Carter: Oh, I'd love to see the ladies. And I miss all-

Scott Hinshaw: And that's one of the things is that they all seem to really 00:44:00enjoy it and appreciate it, and ...

Betty Carter: Yeah. All my World War II ladies are gone, though.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: I check the death lists before I go to the luncheons.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. Yeah. But we have new veterans, we have younger veterans that we talk to.

Betty Carter: Yes, I know. But my World War II ladies will always be ... they were the grandmothers I never had.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. But the legacy continues, and ... yeah. And it is interesting to-

Betty Carter: The new ones are just as tough as they were.

Scott Hinshaw: Right. Yeah. Although they, I guess in some ways don't face some of the same challenges that-

Betty Carter: Different challenges.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. Yeah.

Betty Carter: Different challenges, yeah.

Scott Hinshaw: It's still tough, I'm sure. So, I need to ask you how and when did the WVHP become the Betty H. Carter-

Betty Carter: I don't know when, and I meant to look that up, so I can look it up-

Scott Hinshaw: That's okay. But you can talk about how.

Betty Carter: Hermann's estate will be coming to the project. And he asked that it'd be named for me.

Scott Hinshaw: Yep.

Betty Carter: I was shocked. I didn't know that was going to happen. Hermann has been wonderful for this project. He loves the project as much as I do.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Carter: And I'm not saying that Beth Ann doesn't love the project, it's just-

Scott Hinshaw: Oh no, of course not.

Betty Carter: ... Hermann and I have a very close ownership of it.

Scott Hinshaw: So, he never talked to you about it before he did it? He just-

Betty Carter: Mm-mm (negative). He just did it.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: Yeah. So, that was very nice of him.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. Do you have a favorite story or oral history?

Betty Carter: Oh gosh, you-

Scott Hinshaw: Or artifact?

Betty Carter: ... just you say a story, oh, I could start talking and not stop.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah?

Betty Carter: Let me tell you, okay, maybe about four women, okay?

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: I'll make it short, okay? As short as I can.

Scott Hinshaw: That's fine. You got plenty of time.

Betty Carter: One is Daphine Doster Mastroianni. She actually graduated from Women's College. Well no, it was North Carolina College for Women, because she graduated I think it was '27, and then by then the name had been changed again.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: And so, after she got her ... and she had a degree in music. And 00:46:00after that, she went and took training and became a registered nurse. In World War II, she joined the Army Nurse Corps. Stationed in Fiji. In Fiji, she met Joe Mostriani. He worked for the Red Cross. They became close friends. After the war, Joe went home to his family in New York, Daphine became a leader in public health nursing, eventually retiring in Charlotte. In 1992, Joe's wife died, and he got in touch with Daphine. So, he came to Charlotte to visit. And they were married.

Scott Hinshaw: Wow.

Betty Carter: She had never married.

Scott Hinshaw: Wow.

Betty Carter: When they married, she was 86. They had only seven years together. Joe died in '99, and she died in 2000.

Scott Hinshaw: Wow.

Betty Carter: I know that's not earth shaking, or ... but it's just-

Scott Hinshaw: It's a very neat story. Yeah.

Betty Carter: It's just ... if you ever have a chance to see girls ... Star Spangled Girls, Brenda's play, there's a song about Joe in there.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: And Hermon told me the last time he went to see it, he sat there and cried because he met Joe. Most of these people I only know through the interviews.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: I have met Daphine though.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Carter: But I mean, can you imagine? Okay, that's one story. The other one is a little shorter. It's about an army nurse, Mrs. Rebus, and I don't know whether she's alive or not. I meant to check that. But she was stationed in Southern England, flew from England to the continent and bring back plane loads of wounded men. And she told the story about one of ... if it's not the first one, the first plan loads coming back, she was trying to take care of everybody. 00:48:00And one of the wounded men started speaking German. And it was a German solider that they had picked up by mistake.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: And the rest of the men on the plane were ready to kill him.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure.

Betty Carter: And so, but they got that squared away. And so, she said, "Eventually they would have a planeload of German prisoners that ..." Hurt, wounded, that she had to take care of. And she said she had a really hard time doing it. That here she was saving the enemy.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: But then she said she heard the story, one of the planeloads, the American solider was telling her how rough it had been. How they had been in this battle, and they had a lot of wounded, and they didn't have a doctor. And then they heard this, from a loudspeaker, that this man speaking said, "I'm a German Doctor. I know you don't have a doctor. We're going to call a cease fire, and I'm coming over."

Scott Hinshaw: Wow, yeah.

Betty Carter: And she said that changed it.

Scott Hinshaw: That's amazing.

Betty Carter: And the other one I won't go into, but if you ever get a chance to read Mrs. Bain's interview. Bain, she was a WASP.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Carter: She was Carson Bain, who was former mayor of Greensboro, his first wife. And she just died within the last year. She is hilarious telling about flying those planes. Those women were ... I told her she was out of her mind. She said, "Yeah."

Scott Hinshaw: That's amazing. What it takes. Special type of person to do that, right?

Betty Carter: And finally, the last one ... is a personal for me. March 2003, I received an email from Dr. James Madison. I always think that's interesting, James Madison.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Carter: He's a professor at Indiana University. And he had seen our website. We had similar interview, and he's very interested in an interview of Mary Matthews. She'd served in the Red Cross in France. And Professor Madison 00:50:00was writing a book about Elizabeth Richardson, another person who had served in the Red Cross. And she was a native of Indiana. Elizabeth Richardson had been Mary's supervisor in the Red Cross, so that's the connection with us. Richardson was killed on a flight to Paris right after the war ended. But all her family had saved all of her letters, her diaries and everything like that, and that's how Madison was getting his information, and also getting in touch with Mary Matthews.

Betty Carter: As I read his email, cold chills started running up and down my spine. This was March when I got his email. Six months earlier in October 2002, I visited Omaha Beach, and the cemetery that sits on the bluff overlooking the beach. I knew that among the 9000 soldiers plus, 9000 plus soldiers buried in that cemetery, there were four women. And I wanted to visit each of their graves.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: On the day that Christopher, my son was with me, and I were there, the superintendent of the cemetery wasn't there, and his assistant could not find ... the graves are coded by number, but he could only find one grave, woman's grave. But on that day, we visited Elizabeth Richardson's grave. I thought I would never hear her name again.

Scott Hinshaw: Wow.

Betty Carter: As a matter of fact, I came back and started using her ... saying I had visited her grave, and then I got Madison's email, I just went ... And I told him. I said, "Let me tell you my story."

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: And he said, "Let me tell you my story." And he had sort of just happened upon her grave in the cemetery, too.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. That's great.

Betty Carter: But you know, there's so many stories in those interviews.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Betty Carter: So many stories.

Scott Hinshaw: And now they're preserved, and that's great.

Betty Carter: Yeah, they're there forever, I hope.

Scott Hinshaw: Well, we're going to go to the conclusion section.

Betty Carter: Okay.

Scott Hinshaw: If you're ready.

Betty Carter: Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw: Tell me how UNCG has affected your life, and what it means to you.

Betty Carter: Well, I mean, you can see. I love history. I have found out that the winners write history, so if you're in a war ... but since there's so much reserved in at UNCG, I think they're the winners.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Yeah.

Betty Carter: But love history, and I love ... I'm very strongly support the public record acts. The people who hold office need to understand that these records that they are creating are not personal records. They belong to the people of North Carolina, of this country, whatever.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: North Carolina has a very strong public records act. And so, that's one ... I'm not sure that's helped preserve the UNCG's records, but hopefully it has.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah.

Betty Carter: But I didn't go to school ... A lot of people think I went to school at UNCG. I did not. It's a lovely place. I enjoyed my time there. Did I 00:53:00always agree? No. But who does?

Scott Hinshaw: That would be very unusual.

Betty Carter: But preserving history, and we ... I say we. The University Archives is good, had done a good job. And of course, these women. The veterans, the preserving women's history is important, too.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. Definitely. So, a large part of these interviews are done for the 125th anniversary of the University. And that's an excellent opportunity for reflection, but also helps to think about where we're heading in the future. So, I'm going to ask you, what do you think is the future of UNCG, and where do you think it's going in the next-

Betty Carter: I deal with the past. I don't deal ...

Scott Hinshaw: That's fair enough.

Betty Carter: I must tell you, one of the things ... one of the questions we ask the veterans, or we used to. I know I asked Anne Dierdsly this, what do you see 00:54:00is the ... I asked Anne, "What is the movement that you think is coming next?" And she said, "You know, the LGBT ... L-G-B-T, yeah. Okay."

Scott Hinshaw: You can either stop there, or you can add Q, or you can add several other letters, yeah. It just depends.

Betty Carter: She said that was the thing she saw coming. And now this ... you know, I've though about this. I'm not really good at seeing the future, but I think UNCG's going to have to ... to really fight to maintain where it is. I put down there are no mountains near here, there are no beaches near here. That attracts people whether you like it or not. I mean, App State in Western Carolina, Wilmington, who's getting the big ... We're not unique, like School of the Arts.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Betty Carter: The flagship universities. I mean, State and Carolina. And I even 00:55:00put ECU there, because ECU covers a huge area of the state.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: They were trying, during the early part of the century, they were trying to create what became East Carolina. McIver fought it tooth and nail. He realized what ... and McIver died in '06. ECU came in '09.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. Right.

Betty Carter: But anyway, that's just ... UNCG's going to have to fight. We don't have sports, and that's fine. I'm not a big sports person, except for Duke basketball. But anyway, you know, I don't know ... hopefully the Chancellor has some ideas on this. I'm not sure that the Toard of trustees are really the people to know what's ahead.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Carter: But maybe the Chancellor and some select faculty members, retired 00:56:00and active. I don't know.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. That's fair enough. It's a tough question.

Betty Carter: Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw: It's just going to be interesting to see how people answered it and see what happens.

Betty Carter: Maybe someone will figure it out.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah. See who the winner is. I don't have anymore formal questions for you, but if there's anything at all that you'd like to talk about, expand on-

Betty Carter: I don't know. Did you ...

Scott Hinshaw: It's just wide open if you ... something else you want to talk about.

Betty Carter: No, I have no ... like I said, you can always ask a zillion questions, so I thought you narrowed it down very well.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. Thank you. Well, this has been great talking to you. Thanks for talking with-