Oral history interview with Betty Luning, 2018

Scott Hinshaw: Today is Wednesday, October 10, 2018. My name is Scott Hinshaw, and I am in the Jackson Library, on the phone with Betty Looting, class of 1961. We are here to conduct an oral history for the UNCG Institutional Memory Collection.

Scott Hinshaw: Good morning.

Betty Luning: Good morning.

Scott Hinshaw: I'd like to start off the interview by asking you about your background. Can you tell me when and where you were born?

Betty Luning: I was born in Salisbury, North Carolina on October 6, 1939.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. And can you tell me about your parents and your family?

Betty Luning: Well, my father was a graduate in civil engineering from the University of North Carolina at a time way before North Carolina State was started for such specialties. So, he had also played football there, and since it was ... He graduated at the time of the Depression. He couldn't get a job as a civil engineer, but he could get a job as a teacher and a football coach, 00:01:00which he did. It shows the values of a certain era, I think.

Scott Hinshaw: Sure.

Betty Luning: He did get a job in Salisbury. My mother was a first grade teacher in Salisbury, so that's why we were there.

Scott Hinshaw: Great. And can you tell me where you went to high school?

Betty Luning: We eventually landed in Wilkes County, North Carolina and I went to a wonderful high school called Wilkes Central, which is still in existence I believe.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. Did you have any favorite subjects in high school?

Betty Luning: I loved physics, had a wonderful physics teacher. I also loved history because it was kind of a subject that had been ingrained in me since I was quite young.

Scott Hinshaw: Can you tell me about how you found out about Women's College and why you chose to attend?

Betty Luning: Well, my grandmother graduated from the Women's College in 1904. 00:02:00All my aunts also went there, so I was like the third generation to attend. Really, I didn't have much of a choice, it was kind of a family habit to go to the Women's College.

Scott Hinshaw: Do you remember your grandmother or your aunts talking to you about Women's College, what it was like when they went?

Betty Luning: Well yes, they always did. It was a big part of their lives. You may know that Charles Duncan McIver was my, I guess, great uncle, so there was quite a devotion to the college. I think we also sort of invested a lot into it, I don't quite know what that investment was, but we were just very attached to 00:03:00it and very proud of the school actually.

Scott Hinshaw: I imagine so, that's great. Can you tell me about your transition from high school to college? Was it a tough transition? Did your high school prepare you very well for college?

Betty Luning: It was actually a wonderful transition, because I went from what was essentially a wonderful county school that drew people from, oh, the mountains to the very remote places that came in everyday. So from that point of view, it was a wonderful experience, but academically, it wasn't very challenging. So, my freshman year at Women's College, I felt as if a whole new world had opened to me and it was just absolutely marvelous to find all of this marvelous faculty and all kinds of things that I'd often wondered about, but 00:04:00never had been able to learn about. It was a great transition and very, very exciting.

Scott Hinshaw: Great. What do you remember about your classes that you took at Women's College? And tell us your favorite subject, if you had one.

Betty Luning: All of my classes except for health - I think I found that a bit boring - were just splendid and I, really, this sounds like I've made it up, but I didn't. I absolutely couldn't wait to get to it them in the morning. But as I got into my junior year, things really, really got particularly fascinating. I loved Dr. Eugene Pfaff and his intellectual history courses. I also took several years of Russian with Jordan Curlen and that actually had a big impact on my 00:05:00future career. But, I guess we'll get to that later. So my major was history, did I say that?

Scott Hinshaw: You did not, but if Eugene Pfaff was one of your favorite professors, that makes sense.

Betty Luning: Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw: Did you want to talk a little bit about what you did after you graduated, or you want to wait until we go through your time at Women's College?

Betty Luning: It's totally up to you.

Scott Hinshaw: Let's go through your time at Women's College and we'll get to that after.

Betty Luning: Okay.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay?

Betty Luning: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Scott Hinshaw: Can you tell me where you lived on campus?

Betty Luning: In Gray my freshman year and then I think it was Winfield for the other three years.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. And what was dorm life like?

Betty Luning: It was fine, I mean, there was a lot of socialization, a lot of getting together, a lot of silliness. And eventually, a lot of kind of peaks formed, which I didn't much care for, but it was all fine.

Scott Hinshaw: Can you tell me about your roommates? What were your fellow 00:06:00students like?

Betty Luning: Well my freshman year roommate was a wonderful girl named Louise Shimmlefinick, who now has unfortunately died, but she was from Vermont. I had asked for a roommate from out of state because I thought that would be a good experience. Alas, she hated the Woman's College and I think transferred out her freshman year. I believe she went back for her sophomore year in Vermont. After that, my roommates I actually was never quite particularly close to because I had so many other friends on campus that I just spent more time with them than I did with my roommates.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). And do you have any sense of what kind of students came here, what were the women like who came here?

Betty Luning: They were by and large from North Carolina as one might expect, but they were from all over the state and therefore had very different points of 00:07:00view than I might have. I guess I particularly enjoyed ... Well, one of my closest friends was from Tarboro, North Carolina and still is a close friend. But my very closest friend was from Ohio, so she brought us a completely different perspective to what life was like beyond the borders of North Carolina.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. I'd like for you to tell me if you could describe the political atmosphere on campus in the early 1960's.

Betty Luning: I certainly could. It was a really exciting time. Communism was much in the air. I don't know how quite to say this without sounding extreme, but a number of the professors were, certainly were not communists, but were 00:08:00somewhat sympathetic to the idea of communism, so it was taught from a very interesting different perspective. And of course, to a young person who had come from a part of North Carolina that was actually quite poor and suffered a lot, it had some appeal. So that was exciting, it was exciting to find out about.

Betty Luning: As I recall, sometime during my stay at Women's College, there was a man named Junius Scales who was a communist and was at the University of North Carolina, and I believe was in the class with my father at UNC. Later, he was arrested and charged for cooperating with a foreign government and something like that and the Smith Act was passed, and he was tried. It was all 00:09:00complicated, but some portion of the Junius Scales trial was held in Greensboro, and I can't really remember what the particulars were. But I remember going down with my friend Sudie Duncan from Ohio to listen to a portion of the trial and finding that very, very exciting.

Betty Luning: But the most significant thing that happened during my stay at the Women's College, at least that happened to me, was the civil rights demonstration and the sit in at Woolworth's, which I think was in February of 1960. My friend Sudie Duncan and I ... Civil rights was also very much on our minds and I think our class was the first class to admit black students. And there were four women, all of whom were made to live together in one dorm, which 00:10:00seemed to me not the best thing in the world, but I think they've since became very, very productive citizens, and one may have even been the Mayor of Charlotte, or involved in politics in North Carolina.

Betty Luning: When we heard what the A&T students were doing at Woolworth's ... I think they came in the afternoon of, I don't know, February 1st, I'm kind of guessing. And the Greensboro Daily News had an article about it that day. And at soon as Sudie and I heard about it, we were anxious to go down and see what was happening.

Betty Luning: I remember stopping by my grandmother's house. My grandmother, class of 1904 at the Woman's College, lived directly across from the music building and the bus stop was off of there, so we stopped in to tell her where 00:11:00we were going. She was not terribly happy about it.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, I imagine not.

Betty Luning: She didn't tell us we couldn't go, but she felt if we were going, we ought to have a purpose, so she gave us I believe something like a dollar to buy a box of number two pencils for her [crosstalk 00:11:24]. Off we went, and we had ... Our purpose in going was just to see what was going on. We walked into Woolworth's and here were these absolutely impeccably, behaved impeccably, courteous young black men sitting out the counter, and they were surrounded by some of the most discourteous, disheveled, very rude white men. A great crowd of 00:12:00them. But, the white men, being typical southerners, once they saw these two white girls come in, they immediately gave up there seats to us. Either because they thought we were with them or they were just being polite. So Sudie and I, without even consulting each other, knew exactly what we had to do. So we took the two seats and then shortly there after, we got up and we gave our two seats to two black students. And actually that was something I'll never forget in my whole entire life. I don't believe in being proud of yourself, and I'm not that, but it was probably the most satisfactory thing I've ever done.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, that is amazing. So do you recall what happened after you gave up your seats? What was the reaction? I assume they were still there.

Betty Luning: Well, there was no reaction. Sudie and I got on the bus and came back to college. I'm not certain of the details. I distinctly remember Dean Taylor ... Actually what happened was I used to walk from my dorm to my grandmother's house, and thereby I'd pass Dean Taylor's house, which I think was on maybe McIver Street. Anyway, she sometime would stop me for little conversations, especially if I'd done something that wasn't right. So she came up and had a word with me about the sit in. How she knew we'd been in there, I don't know.

Betty Luning: Sudie and I had both worn our class jackets and she asked if the 00:14:00next time we felt compelled to express our views, we not wear our class jackets.

Scott Hinshaw: Right, yeah.

Betty Luning: That was the end of it. You know, that was just the end of it. There was definitely no discipline, no criticism. It was all fine. And thinking about this and reading about some other things, I remember the cover of the Army magazine showing another girl whom I actually knew saying that she had gone down to the demonstration, said she was the first college student to do so. I called up Sudie, who's now a teacher in high school in San Francisco, "Did this really happen? Did you really do this?"

Scott Hinshaw: You had to... yeah.

Betty Luning: And she said, "we absolutely did, and I teach it every year to my students."

Scott Hinshaw: That's great. Can you spell her name for me?

Betty Luning: Yeah. Her first name was S-U-D-I-E, and her last name, her maiden name was Duncan, D-U-N-C-A-N. And her last name is Sides, S-I-D-E-S.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. Wow, so many questions. So do you remember, you said you did get caught by Dean Taylor - and it's Katherine Taylor, Dean of the Women, right?

Betty Luning: Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Scott Hinshaw: You said... So was she the one who asked you not to wear your jackets if you went back? Your class jackets.

Betty Luning: Well, not to wear our class jackets if we decided we needed to participate in any off campus demonstrations.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Luning: It was all very gentle, and I think she and my grandmother were friends. I think maybe that's how she heard that I had gone down ... I don't know.

Scott Hinshaw: Wow. Yeah, because I do know the chancellor at the time... Do you remember the chancellor even saying anything about it at all, or maybe after that time? Shortly after.

Betty Luning: Yes, I think he did, but I don't remember.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. Yeah, because we have heard, and there's some documentation about him requesting that students not do that, and do just what you say Dean Taylor told you, not wear your class jackets if you're going to go, because obviously...

Betty Luning: Well, she didn't specifically ... When she said that, she was not talking about going again to Woolworth's, she was just talking about demonstrating about anything, anywhere off campus. So she wasn't that specific. I definitely did not have the feeling that she was opposed to the sit in 00:17:00philosophically in any way.

Scott Hinshaw: Wow. That's amazing. Is there anything else that you want to share about the sit ins or that time? Do you ...

Betty Luning: No, I don't think so.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay.

Betty Luning: I think that's pretty much it.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. All right.

Betty Luning: Well, actually, I since then have read many accounts of the Woolworth's demonstrations and for years, whenever I read it, it would say two white girls from the Women's College were there or something like that, and I just assumed it was us. But then this alumni magazine came with this other person's picture on it, so I decided it meant her, but that didn't matter a bit to either me or Sudie, we knew what we'd done and why we had done it and ...

Scott Hinshaw: Sure. And of course there were several days of the sit ins, 00:18:00right? A lot of people don't realize that. It wasn't only a...

Betty Luning: Yeah, I think it went on for several months in fact in some way. I'm not sure about that either. But no, it went on for quite awhile, quite awhile. And it was joined by more and more people. Women from Bennett College for example I think may have been there almost from the start.

Scott Hinshaw: Mm-hmm (affirmative). Of course that first sit in with the four from A&T, the four A&T students, that was on February 1st. Do you remember what day? Or do you have a sense?

Betty Luning: I think it was in the afternoon of February 1st if I'm correct. Whatever day it was in the newspaper, it could've been the second, I expect it was the third of February, but it was either the second or third that Sudie and I went.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. Great. That's amazing. So, do you remember much about the 00:19:00chancellors at the time? That would have been Blackwell and Pearson.

Betty Luning: I really don't. I think fortunately I didn't have too much contact with them.

Scott Hinshaw: Right.

Betty Luning: I managed to stay out of trouble otherwise. I really don't ... don't remember.

Scott Hinshaw: And do you remember anything else about Katherine Taylor, Dean Taylor?

Betty Luning: Well, yes. She was very impressive and I think did a wonderful job. I was half scared of her, and I think most students were. Maybe some part... I don't know if that was part of her job or not. But she really was quite distinguished and quite strong. Certainly didn't ever leave any doubt about what she expected from students or from the college, so she was fine. I believe she's now... Has she since... well, she must have died, right?

Scott Hinshaw: I think so, yes. I don't know the date. Yeah. Do you remember any of the other administrators, like Mereb Mossman or Alumni Secretary Barbara Parrish?

Betty Luning: I do distantly remember as being very, very civilized and soft spoken. I don't think she was like Dean Taylor, she was a little more contained. I certainly remember Barbara Parish, over a long period of time. She was a lot of fun. I thought did her job awfully well.

Scott Hinshaw: Great. Now you've already mentioned a couple professors, but are there any other professors that made an impression on you while you were at Women's College?

Betty Luning: I don't think anybody could have been at Women's College at the time and studied at all with Randall Jarrell without feeling just enormously effected by him and his courses. Almost a lifetime of interest in poetry and reading, he certainly laid the groundwork for that. We were struck with grief to 00:21:00hear about his death. He was a wonderful person. And also, Vera Largen was a terrific history teacher, just loved it I think. And, of course, that enthusiasm came across. So there were extraordinary teachers I thought.

Scott Hinshaw: Great, great. Let's move on from Women's College, and tell me a little bit about what you did after you graduated from Women's College.

Betty Luning: Well, because I had taken two years of Russian, our government was, at the time, very interested in acquiring people who had some Russian language ability should we be attacked. You know, I can assure you that there was no way that I could converse with a Russian, let alone when under attack 00:22:00situations. But, because of that, they would hire most anybody who came down the pike.

Betty Luning: One of my professors and I actually have forgotten his name, the Russian language professor was on some advisory committee in Washington, and he somehow passed my name along as a student of Russian. I eventually was hired by the USIA, the United States Information Services. Because of that, I feel like I was totally indebted to this man who, unfortunately, I can't remember his name. It had a huge impact on my life.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, that's great.

Betty Luning: It was a marvelous job. One of my first jobs at the USIA was 00:23:00writing answers to questions submitted to various embassies around the world by citizens of that country. So I did that, and then that led to a job at the Voice of America very shortly, which is where I was until I guess I got married and moved to Chicago. The Voice of America was just an extraordinary place to work. It was surrounded by, I believe at the time, 52 different languages and almost that many language services, so I was writing in English for translation by all these languages. So I had a great deal of contact with people in the services, because they often didn't understand what I was saying and had to come ask me what I meant and that kind of thing. It was just a fantastic job and really, it 00:24:00was all thanks to people at the Women's College that I even had it.

Scott Hinshaw: Wow, that sounds pretty exciting.

Betty Luning: Yeah.

Scott Hinshaw: So have you been involved with the college since you graduated?

Betty Luning: No, I really haven't. We live far away for one thing.

Scott Hinshaw: Right, the distance is a problem.

Betty Luning: Well, no that isn't quite true. For awhile, there was a little group ... It was sponsored by the Alumni Association. A little group of graduates from the college, and we had meetings in Chicago and it was wonderful. I think I was kind of the organizer of it with a lot of help from the Alumni Association. And we had dinners and got together and I can remember even having meetings at my house. It was just huge fun to meet other people from UNCG, as it 00:25:00was by then.

Scott Hinshaw: Yeah, that's very neat.

Betty Luning: But that kind of fell apart and I think they stopped doing it, so I really haven't had any contact since then.

Scott Hinshaw: Okay. Well, what would you like people to know about your time at Women's College?

Betty Luning: Well principally what a fine school it was. I think really it was one of the best schools for women in the country. I've since had many, many friends who went to Wellesy and Smith and Radcliffe, and, while they were certainly fine schools, I've never heard anything that made me believe that the Women's College was not just as fine.

Scott Hinshaw: Great, great. What impact did attending Women's College have on your life? I think we probably talked about some of this already, but...

Betty Luning: Yeah, it had a huge impact. I mean, it obviously got the jobs that 00:26:00I much loved and got me to Washington where I met my husband, so I couldn't overstate the ... and well, really the basic influence was an opening to learning and discovery I think.

Scott Hinshaw: Actually, I don't have anymore formal questions for you. Is there anything at all that you'd like to add to the interview? Or anything we missed or anything you want to go back to?

Betty Luning: No, I think you've been very thorough and I appreciate your patience in listening to me.

Scott Hinshaw: Oh, this was great. This is a fascinating story, so I'm really glad you talked to us today.

Betty Luning: Good. Well, thank you.

Scott Hinshaw: All right, thank you.