Oral history interview with Miriam Corn Barkley, 1991

MF:This is Missy Foy, it's the 9th of May 1991 and I'm in the office of Miriam Corn Barkley. I guess if you could start with some general information like where you are from and when you attended UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro], and just some general information like that first.

MB: Okay. I'm a graduate of the class of '74. I came here in the fall of '70, and I had grown up in High Point [North Carolina] so I didn't come very far away to school. But I chose UNCG because I wanted to go to the School of Ed[ucation], which I did. And of course, UNCG had the best education program around. I came here in the fall of '70, graduated in '74, then I was a teacher for two years. I figured I'd be a teacher forever, but UNCG called me back, so to speak. I came back to school and pursued my master's degree in library science and did that, I 00:01:00guess, in about in sonic time because I was a full-time student and just sort of raced through in fifteen months. And then worked at two other colleges in the area, and in 1982 came back here. So here I am for my third time around at UNCG. I guess I'm going to stay. [laughs]

MF: And so you've been working here in the office of university publications?

MB: Well, I first came in as the editor of the alumni magazine [UNCG Magazine] and worked in the alumni office. And I had part-time responsibilities with programming, that is with developing events and programs for alumni. Then in 1985 we formed the publications office and put together a staff of people who are writers, editors, designers, photographers, and production assistants to support the university's PR [public relations] program in general--in producing publications.

MF: Coming to UNCG in the early '70s, there was still that sort of reputation that it had been a woman's school, and what kind of effect did that tradition have on campus life, do you think?

MB: Yeah, I was oblivious to that. I knew that we had the heritage of Woman's College, but by the time I got to school here in '70, there'd been enough years passing that male presence was very much a part of the academic experience here and the social experience too, of course. And even though the proportions, the ratio, was not very high, it did not, by the time I was in school here, it did not resemble a women's college that men just happened to go to. We were fully coeducational by then. Or at least we were in my perspective. I cannot ima[gine]--I can't think of any classes that I had the whole time I was here 00:03:00where there wasn't a fairly, actually a fairly sizeable male presence. And so even in that short a period of time--it had only been seven years since we'd been co-ed--I didn't perceive this at all as what the university had been. It was not an issue, either, in my choice to come here.

MF: Oh?

MB: I know that was, as a recruiting mechanism--I'm sure at that time there were lots of people who chose UNCG or did not choose UNCG just because of that women's college heritage.

MF: Yeah. I know that--I've heard people say, "Oh that's the, that's the girls' school."

MB: Right. Well, we still get that.

MF: Yeah, I suppose so.

MB: In fact, many, many, many alumni still call this place WC [Woman's College of the University of North Carolina].

MF: Oh sure.

MB: There's no--I mean, I'm sure you've interviewed lots of people who call it WC.

MF: Sure, yeah. What kinds of activities around campus sort of characterized student life for you? MB: Well, this was an interesting time to be alive, I think.

MF: Right. [laughs]

MB: The early '70s were not like any other phase, I think, in history. Of course, I'm going to be--well, this is what happened to me. At the very time when I was learning how to be an adult, I graduated from high school and came to UNCG. Sociologically, it was a time where the whole world was upside down, and we were all ready to save the world. You know, we all knew more than the older generation. We were all ready to take on any challenge that came our way. And by God, we were going--we were just going to change the social structure. Well, for this area, that all started on Tate Street. I mean, the center of life for most 00:05:00of my friends, for me and most of my friends, was not focused in the classroom in the sense of that being our main--of course, that's the reason we were here, but that was not where our focus was. We were looking at Tate Street and what kinds of social movements were taking place there. I, as a freshman, I lived on campus for--my first year here--in North Spencer [Hall] and learned how to be a college student. And that, of course, was very traumatic as it would be for anybody who was just coming away from home for the first time. But slowly the-- my focus--moved away from the campus and onto Tate Street to the point that eventually--well, I guess in a few months' time I became a barmaid in what was called the Joker's then. It's now the Edge. And so really that was a learning 00:06:00experience because there was something about being on the edge of a movement, you know. Not that we were the movement, but that we were on the edge of something socially significant. And at the same time the drug faction was entering the Tate Street area so there was an element of excitement even about that because there was danger, you know? And something about that was very thrilling to me. I'm only able to say this now. I was not--I didn't recognize these things back then. But I'd grown up in a, shall we say, I guess, a fairly sheltered life, a good strong Baptist family, you know. And you know, I didn't really know what else was out there. So just coming to Greensboro, twenty miles away, and being exposed to this huge group of students who were very different 00:07:00from me, and then, on top of that, learning how to be an adult and, on top of that, seeing this new social movement begin to develop--for me, it was just extremely exciting. Now you know I was here to study, and I had some shaky times academically my first year. But I never lost sight of the fact that my reason for being here was to get an education. and I didn't want to--I didn't want to tear that up. A lot of students did. Many, many students, you know, used their experience in college--when I saw this--as a way of figuring out, "Gee, I don't want to be a part of this establishment. I'm going to drop out and I'm going to be somebody else." I think those people might be out there still trying to figure out what they were to become.

MF: Yeah. So what kind of things--I mean, I remember Tate Street as wild.

MB: Right, yeah

MF: But it's different now, and I think part of it is because of the drinking 00:08:00age being changed and so forth. But how do you remember Tate Street? What kind of things stick out in your mind?

MB: Well, I came here the year after the major--well, this an interesting part of the story. You may have noticed that over the last couple of years now the bank along the, what is it--the Brown Building, the Music Building?

MF: Right, now has had the thorny bushes pulled off.

MB: Right, right. But by the time I was here those thorny bushes had been put in place because the university wanted to make certain that we didn't have people hanging around all hours of the night on university property. And that--I did not experience the, that sort of "sea of human beings" on that bank that I'm told took place. I was still in high school then and was vaguely aware of what 00:09:00was going on over here, but not really. So by then there was a little bit of tension. I was not completely aware of this, but there was tension between the university and the Tate Street community. But it was a wild time because people would just wander the streets. I mean, Tate Street, we used to call it--remember Haight Ashbury? We used to call it "Tate Ashbury." We had sights on the big time, I guess. But we'd just hang out. I mean, that was sort of what one did. And there were two kinds of people in those days. There were "freaks," which was the term locally used for hippies, and there were "straights," which of course, has a different meaning now. Those were people who were, I guess, into--well, you could tell by their clothing. You could just tell by anybody's clothing what they, which faction they were in.

MF: In those days you had to wear the proper uniform, you know. [laughs]

MB: Exactly, exactly. And even though the straights were wearing, you know, oxford shirts and pantyhose and whatever else went along with that, we were wearing just the same uniform but different clothing. You know, we had tie dyed t-shirts and we, of course, went bare footed everywhere. [We] never thought about wearing shoes, even to class. It wasn't--I don't know if it was a state health law then that you had to wear shoes-- but all of us went to class without shoes. Didn't even think about it. But of course, very low cut jeans. I mean your navel had to show.

MF: Oh yeah.

MB: And bell bottoms, you know. So your pants were really just very, very short because they didn't come up very high.

MF: They had to drag far enough so that it wore out at your heels.

MB: Oh, yes, yes, absolutely. You could not walk around--

MF: I remember that. I used to have a pair of pants like that. [laughs]

MB: So, I mean that was every bit as much a uniform as what those straights were wearing. And, of course, we all had to go out and have our ears pierced, and we grew long hair and, you know, there were certain conditions. But Tate 00:11:00Street really--pardon me--allergies.

MF: I know. I'm taking benadryl right now.

MB: Oh, I'm sorry.

MF: The only thing that ever bothers me is when they cut hayfields, and that's usually not �til the beginning of June, end of May, but it's early this year.

MB: It's already happening, isn't it?

MF: Yeah. MB: Everybody I know has some kind of problem.

MF: That's the only one I usually have. About one week of it, that's it.

MB: Oh, you're lucky.

MF: It was that way last year too.

MB: Mild winters are doing it.

MF: Yeah.

MB: But Tate Street had a faction of non-university--in fact, the core, I think, of Tate Street were non-university people. And ultimately that faction turned more toward the seedy side of drug life. And I think really that was the death knell of the fun that we had on Tate Street. There was a gentleman--I'm using the word "gentleman," but I'm not sure that's quite the right term. But there was a young man who would hang out on Tate Street. His name was Psyche. 00:12:00He's still around, I think. He was a fairly stocky black man who had a shaved head, except for the very top. He had this sort of, I guess, about four inch top knot sticking up out of the very crown of his head. And I recall it was a major event, everybody had to be there, that he got married on Tate Street. He married this slender, little, innocent white woman. And instead of giving her a ring, he gave her a--well, a ring for her finger--he gave her a nose ring. [laughs] They exchanged nose rings. It was so charming. But working at Jokers was an experience, not only because that's where sort of everyone came in for a beer and then wandered back out and then wandered back in and so forth. Oh, this was great money because we would sell draft beer at forty-seven cents apiece, but, 00:13:00of course, everybody'd give you fifty cents. You made three cents on every single draft. And you'd sling some beers out over happy hour. This was back in the days of happy hour. And so not only then were you making three cents off of every beer, but you'd get pretty good tips for back then, you know. At least I was satisfied. I don't know how good it was, but it was a lot to me. Then this also was the first time I ever made money, you know. The first time I was being paid, so that was a lot of fun. I was there one night when someone, in fact, someone who went to UNCG, sort of, I guess, went berserk, picked up the cash register and threw it through the window so that here goes this flying cash register making this horrible noise. And you know, we were all--nobody turned around in great surprise, especially. I guess we all thought, "Hmm, we're in a social situation that has the potential for some violence, and here's a 00:14:00manifestation of that." That was the worst thing that ever happened, though. But you know, we would see things go on that were probably just simply dangerous and unhealthy [laughs], but didn't think a thing about it.

MF: Well, you know, that goes along with the age too somewhat.

MB: Yeah, that's right.

MF: You were saying one thing earlier about later, like some of the drug scene on Tate Street seemed to turn a little seedy. And one thing that came to mind is that it seems to me that in that era most of the drug use seemed to be out of celebration, and now a lot of drug use seems to be more out of desperation.

MB: It seemed to me that back then--

MF: It seemed like a different purpose.

MB: Different purpose. You might say back then--well, frankly, I didn't know many university students who were doing drugs. It was mostly a community faction. And how those people lived, I don't know. I don't know what they were doing to make money. I didn't see much drug dealing, so I don't think that was a big thing. But I think you're right. Most of it was, shall we say, recreational drug use.

MF: Yeah, marijuana or something.

MB: Yeah, yeah, lightweight sorts of things. Now other things could have been going on, and I just didn't know about it. But I didn't, I didn't see it as--well, it certainly didn't turn into what drug use is now. That was never the basis for any sort of violence that we saw. Again, I could have been so naive that I just didn't--I wasn't aware of what was happening around.

MF: Yeah, but also I think another strong difference that I heard a student 00:16:00point out in a class about a year ago--and I never thought about this until I heard it--was that in the, throughout the seventies, throughout, I guess, basically all the seventies, even people who did not get high would say they did. But now even people who do get high say they don't.

MB: Right, fascinating. I think that might be true.

MF: And I've never thought of it that way but it's very true.

MB: I guess it depends on what's cool at the time, you know. What is--what increases your peer status, you might say.

MF: Yeah, yeah. But I'd never thought of that until I heard that student say that and it struck very true to me.

MB: It sounds right to me.

MF: Yeah. There was a certain group that you wanted to be a part of. I'd never heard them called "frigs."

MB: Freaks, freaks. F-R-E-A-K-S.

MF: Oh, okay. I know that when I was in high school, you were either a "head" 00:17:00or a "straight."

MB: Okay. Oh, straight was still being used?

MF: Yeah.

MB: Back then.

MF: Okay.

MB: Well, I think I'd taken a different association.

MF: Well, I'm not talking about when I was in college but--

MB: In high school?

MF: --in high school. You were either a head or a straight. Or you were cool or straight. But everybody knew what you meant.

MB: Yeah. And there really, there was no in-between. You really were in one or another of those classes.

MF: Oh definitely, yeah.

MB: And the, as time went on, the lines got blurred, I think. Well, look at where we are now. Who knows. Nobody is in any class, you know.

MF: Or they hide it, yeah.

MB: Right, right. [laughs] It's all whatever. Anything goes. But you know, the same social forces were working, then, on both sides. Like we were talking about clothing, about there were certain uniforms. Well, there was a certain way of acting, too, and a way of--it was really very parallel. It was just what one 00:18:00considered cool and not.

MF: Oh yeah. There were certain topics of conversation, certain vocabulary, mannerisms, ways of greeting people, you know, there's--

MB: That's right. It's all very cultish, isn't it?

MF: Yeah. And people will ask, "Well, how,"--well, particularly, when I worked at the prison, somebody would ask me, "Well, how do you know that they do that?" I don't know. I just know, you know. MB: Yeah.

MF: There's something about a person.

MB: Unfortunately, that causes misinterpretations or something, or it can be, if you don't know what the code is.

MF: Yeah, yeah, but people who know the code know what it means.

MB: Right, right.

MF: It's really an interesting phenomenon. It's hard to explain.

MB: Yeah, and it's sort of, of course, that's not unique to--that's a universal 00:19:00tenet. That's not something that's special for the seventies or for the eighties either.

MF: Yeah. I think it was more prominent maybe for some certain groups in the seventies, and maybe now in the eighties it's more prominent. I don't know, maybe I'm more out of touch now, who knows. [laughs]

MB: [laughs] I doubt it. I doubt it, Missy.

MF: But something else I wanted to ask you about is race relations on campus. There was a lot of controversy over the Neo-Black Society.

MB: There was, but I didn't pick that up in school here. I had gone to a school that was fully integrated. In fact, my last two years in high school were in a brand new school that had just opened when I was a junior. And when the new school opened, an all-black school closed so it never, it never--I guess I may 00:20:00not have been paying--wasn't sensitized to any difference because I had gone to school in a high school that was about thirty to forty percent black, and it didn't-- it didn't cause any hardships. It didn't--there were no strains, there were no--you know, it was all very amiable kind of situation. So when I came here I--the ratio of black students to white was much lower but I really was not aware of the--I only know now there were controversies surrounding the Neo-Black Society. I was not aware of it at the time.

MF: Oh, at the time.

MB: And I'd been a student senator my first year, so I--although I would not say that I was highly involved in the student politics of the day--I was made aware of a lot of issues that I wouldn't have been if I hadn't served as a senator. So that was not an issue of the day, at least in my experience.

MF: Yeah. What kind of issues did you become aware of as a student senator?

MB: Visitation was an issue. My freshman year might have been the last year that we had to sign out from the dorm when we left the building. You had to sign out and say where you were going. And, of course, if you were going off campus, you had to sign out and give even more information. None of us had cars, none of us really went anywhere off campus, you know, especially on the weeknights especially. But if you signed out overnight, then you pretty much had to, you know, give a sample of blood and have permission from the president of the United States to go anywhere. We were really very protected the first semester. The second semester they loosened up somewhat. I'm getting away from the subject, though. You asked me about the issues of the day. Student representation was an issue. We had a big student government in place. Its effectiveness, though, was challenged. And I dropped out of the student 00:22:00government after my first year because I moved off campus, and I spent my last three years in an apartment on Mendenhall Street, so I wasn't as in touch after that. Let's see, I think that's it, though, really, to my point of view, rather lightweight kinds of issues. And they were probably heading toward heavier kinds of--I guess you'd say that a lot of things were being broken down. A lot of traditions were being broken down here. As a matter of fact, I'm sure you've heard about class jackets. Every class had special jackets that they got. The class of '72 was the first class to give that up. They said, "No more, we don't want this." They also gave up class structure. It used to be that every class had a class president and a vice president. They gave that up. They pretty much 00:23:00tore down a lot of the institutions that the university had been known for. And frankly, it was just a very logical consequence of the time. It's not that, that the destruction of traditions was anything unique about this place. It was happening all over. It's interesting, though, to have been here, you know, for twenty years. Now I'm seeing things come back. It was a twinkie little movement, oh, a couple or three years ago, where some students wanted to get class, bring class jackets back, and they did bring back class sweaters. It didn't really go anywhere, but one year they had class sweaters.

MF: There wasn't enough interest in those.

MB: No, I think not. but there might be another time for that--I don't know. So a lot of the social things and a lot of the issues in student government had been torn asunder before I got here or were being torn asunder. And then, I 00:24:00think that set the stage for some other movements that took place after I left.

MF: Yeah. I was going to ask you about student government. That was on my list. [laughs] What would you say are some of the biggest changes, though, that you've seen from the time you were a student here and now through the years that you--or through the years when you, from the time you were in graduate school, and now the years that you've worked here. What are some of the biggest changes over that time?

MB: Of course, the physical changes are very obvious. I think we have a far more pleasant environment to study and work in than ever before. It's hard--you know, my relationship with the university has changed each of those three times and as I know more about the university, that changes my perception of it.

MF: Oh, sure.

MB: So, so, I guess I'm grappling to say that, that the changes that I've seen 00:25:00are matters of perception probably in my point of view rather than real changes. I guess that's my way of saying, "Hmm, I'm stumped. I can't think of anything that would, that really would make a difference."

MF: Yeah. I know that you were talking about--you said that there was sort of a challenge to the effectiveness of student government. I think that same thing is happening again right now, so I was wondering if maybe you could explain a little bit more about what was going on at that time.

MB: Let's see.

MF: I mean, a lot of people, for example, start a term on student government--well, I guess I'm guilty of the same thing. I was on Graduate Student Council and by the end of this semester rarely attended meetings because 00:26:00it was becoming more obvious as time went on that nothing was accomplished.

MB: Yeah, I--it sounds like I'm like you in that I don't deal well with bureaucracy for its own sake.

MF: Right.

MB: And if there's not action--

MF: If there's not a purpose, if something is not accomplished, then it seems kind of meaningless.

MB: Right. I am, I guess I'm not feeling very close to what was happening except for that one year when I was in school where my job was to represent a certain segment of my dorm. I think my constituency was the first floor of North Spencer. And frankly, you know, I wasn't highly--I wasn't participating in such 00:27:00a very active way. But my job was to come back to my dorm mates and report on issues of the day or report on things that needed action and so forth and then turn back around and go to meetings and--so I was, I think, more a communication link than anything else, and--because my representation-- my representing those students was the important thing. But what came from that? Nothing. What really mattered? Nothing. So what if I had talked to my dorm mates about the issue of visitation. Well, that was one slice of a very large pie, so--

MF: Were there any, was anything accomplished as far as changes in visitation while you were here?

MB: Well, not while I was here. Well, I take that back. Our second semester of my freshman year we did have visitation. We were allowed to have men in our 00:28:00rooms, which--radical thought, you know.

MF: Oh yeah. [laughs]

MB: But there were certain obligations that one had, like the door must be at least halfway open. You know, it had to be at least at a forty-five degree angle. Or this is one-- this was a real one that was a surprise each person in the room, if you had a male in your room, both of you and anybody else who happened to be there must have had one foot on the floor at all times. Now you know what that's getting to, don't you?

MF: Yeah. Well, there are ways around that.

MB: That's exactly right [laughs]. But that was a pretty oblique, kind of interesting rule. And of course, we all laughed about that.

MF: Oh I'm sure, I'm sure.

MB: You know, living in South Spencer--North Spencer was a hoot because first of all, we didn't have to go outside to go to the dining hall. We were right there. And I had the room right next to the steps that went into the dining hall. So we were just pleased as could be. We had sinks in our room, which is a 00:29:00luxury. It was grand.

MF: Yeah.

MB: And we were much closer to McIver because, of course, our first two years were spent in the McIver Building for the most part with our freshman courses. But we used to just put our robes on in the morning and go into the dining hall, get our breakfast, and sneak it out and go back into our rooms and have breakfast in our rooms, which was grand. Most other people, of course, in the quad had to get dressed for class and then go to the dining hall on their way to class. They had their books with them and everything. So we thought we had it made. We'd take trays out of the dining hall, and you know the bank at the Petty Science Building?

MF: Yeah.

MB: Any time--that year was a particularly snowy year. Lots of--there was a terrible ice storm one time, but lots of snow for some reason that year. We'd take those trays and go sliding down on that bank in front of the Forney [sic] Building and that was such a steep bank that, you know, you'd gather a lot of 00:30:00momentum. And by the time you hit the flat part at the bottom of that area in front of the building, you really had to start braking or you'd just run into the bushes, you know, and into the building. That was a thrill, you know.

MF: Oh yeah.

MB: It was part of the fun. [laughs] Again, having some fun with danger, you know.

MF: Yeah. I think also, let's see, I think it was like '68 or '69 where some students had successfully, I guess, lobbied for permission to have beer in their rooms if they were of age. And then I also know that it was maybe '82 or ['8]3, somewhere around there, where the university stopped allowing student funds to 00:31:00be used to purchase alcohol. And so I'm wondering what went on between, in that maybe twelve or thirteen year period. What was sort of like--what seemed to be the university's attitude towards alcohol?

MB: [coughs] I don't remember what the policy was. I think the policy was you could consume alcohol, beer, in your room because back then the beer age was eighteen, I guess.

MF: Eighteen. Oh yes, it still was for many years.

MB: And the liquor age was twenty-one. Seems to me--I don't really know what the policy was because I didn't drink back then. Seems to me the policy was you could consume beer in your own room. We had, you know, ours--we had the first year or maybe the second or third year of having refrigerators. You could rent refrigerators, which was just grand. But I don't remember that that was an 00:32:00issue. Well, I do know that there were plenty of girls in our dorm who were from, let's say smaller towns or from rural areas, and they had a harder adjustment period in trying to be away from home and be independent. And some of them couldn't handle that so, you know, alcohol was kind of a newly found thrill for them and they abused it. I mean they, you know, didn't quite know how to handle that. So I remember many, many a night of having, you know, to deal with somebody who was sick because they'd had too much to drink. But I guess, I mean, I remember this was, that this was fairly open, so I guess the policy was that you could consume alcohol in your room. We didn't have parties back then. There were no--we didn't have beer parties back then. There were no--there was not a social structure for it, in the sense of no fraternities or sororities. And so 00:33:00there was no other unit that would have had a beer blast. Do you know what I mean?

MF: Oh sure, yeah.

MB: That wasn't a part of the scene.

MF: Yeah, because I know that late seventies, early eighties, all the keg parties everywhere.

MB: Yeah, that was not an experience in our day, my day. Frankly, I probably saw more drug use than alcohol use. I think that's a fair statement, that if one was going to experiment with mind-altering substances--

MF: It was going to be something not readily available.

MB: Right. [laughs]

MF: [laughs] Why go for what's already been there?

MB: Exactly, right. One year, it was my sophomore year, there was an epidemic I suppose-- I guess that's the right word--of hepatitis. And anybody who, I think, 00:34:00I think they encouraged all students to get the gamma globulin shot for that. Many, many students who had it, and of course, it was highly infectious. And I took a shot but got hepatitis anyway and ended up having to drop out of school my spring semester of my sophomore year. And that was a interesting experience because, certainly from my own point of view, it interrupted my studies. Frankly, you know, it was probably a good thing that I was able to, you know, stop back, I had to stop school and I moved back in my parents' home. Couldn't have any visitors, so I spent a whole month alone, basically. And it was probably an interesting thing for me because it gave me a chance to--I had a lot of time on my hands, so it gave me a chance to evaluate, for example, whether I'd made the right career choice or whether UNCG would be continuing--whether I 00:35:00would continue at UNCG or look somewhere else. You know, a lot of these little life things that I had, that everybody has to go through. Well, I got to have a time to explore those things, but then I had nothing else to do, you know, but read. So that was in some ways a positive thing. I don't know how many people got hepatitis that year, but just scores of them. You'd hear all about, you know, so many people got it. My roommate--I was living off campus then on Mendenhall Street and my roommate's boyfriend had it. I'm sure that's where I was exposed to it. But that was an interesting fluke in that year. Streaking was the thing.

MF: Oh yeah. I remember, yeah.

MB: By my senior year, streaks through the quad were common. And I didn't see 00:36:00this but I've seen pictures of streaks on motorcycles. But I really, I didn't see that myself. Motorcycles were a big thing back then. Big, whopping, loud motorcycles were running all up and down Tate Street the whole time I was here. I don't--it wasn't, shall we say, gang related, but there were groups of, I guess, groups of motorcycle clubs--I don't know what the term was--that just stormed back and forth around the campus, always interrupted everybody's lifestyle, the incredible sounds.

MF: I have a motorcycle.

MB: Oh, you do?

MF: Yeah.

MB: Then you were one of them, right? [laughs]

MF: No, no. [laughs]

MB: There was this little guy, a little young guy, must have been in junior high school, who would ride with them. For some reason, he was like their mascot or something. We always called him "mini bike" because he was just such a small 00:37:00guy and there he was with these big, you know, street people running around.

MF: Big Harleys. I know mine's a bit loud.

MB: Do you have a big hog?

MF: No, Honda Rebel--250cc. It's actually a replica of the Harley Sportster.

MB: Is that right?

MF: Yeah, but it's smaller.

MB: I bet it's great fun to drive.

MF: Yeah, it is.

MB: That's unusual now. You don't see--

MF: Yeah, I guess--it's funny because if you're on the motorcycle and somebody passes you on a motorcycle, there are certain ways you greet each other.

MB: Back to that code, back to that code, right.

MF: It depends on what kind of motorcycle they have. Like if someone's on a Harley, they usually pretend that you're not there if you're not on a Harley. You don't acknowledge--they won't acknowledge you. But if they're on one of those, I guess what a lot of people call those jet bikes, the real sort of fancy, bright-colored Hondas and Kawasakis and the Kawasaki Ninja, you know, and 00:38:00all of that stuff, they put their hand down like this [gestures] to--

MB: Oh, as the greeting? [laughs]

MF: Yeah. But if they're on like a, one of the bikes that has all those saddle bags and kind of the real conservative looking thing, it's just a wave.

MB: A regular wave.

MF: Yeah. [laughs] And so, you know, it's pretty funny all the different--

MB: There's another topic for your next paper.

MF: Body language, yeah.

MB: Right.

MF: Something else I wanted to ask you about is Residential College.

MB: Oh yes. What a wonderful opportunity. I got a letter--after I got accepted at UNCG when I was a senior in high school, I got a letter explaining the concept behind the Residential College, that it would be put in place the fall that I'd be a freshman. And it sounded really interesting. Why didn't I say yes 00:39:00to that? I think it would have been a wonderful experience. But I think that--I'm not sure exactly why I didn't say yes, but I think I was not overwhelmed by the new experience of going to college, but I thought, okay, just getting to college is going to be enough, you know. Let's not add one more factor. But oh, how I wish I'd said yes because the people who went through that program all through this time, all through the twenty years that it's been together, have had a special bond not only with each other, although that's very strong, but with the university in a way that many of us don't have. Did you, were you in the Residential College?

MF: No. I've interviewed somebody who was in the Residential College, and I mean, I knew about it, knew of it, but I didn't really know what it was, I guess.

MB: Well, it just started as, you know, as I was beginning, and, you know, it had some bumps from just getting started up and things that had to be worked 00:40:00out. And I think that it was very successful through the seventies and on. Might have sort of have turned downward a little bit in the late seventies or early eighties. But now I think it's--I don't really know what students think about it now but--

MF: Yeah. I'm not sure what they think of it now. I know that it was considered a place where a lot of art and drama majors were and I guess sort of the non-establishment type students were usually there. But that's all I remember.

MB: Special academic opportunities that were not available to the rest of us, I think. And again, that sort of bonding spirit, of being a part of a special community, I think, really was very, very strong. So yes, I'm always interested 00:41:00in what people have to say about the Residential College.

MF: Yeah. Now didn't it start out in both Mary Foust and Guilford [Residence Halls]?

MB: Well, actually the first year it might have just been Mary Foust. But it did grow very quickly and it covered both dorms, and you might be right. It may have started in both dorms but I'm not aware of that.

MF: And then I guess, it, by '74, '75, it was just in Mary Foust, I think, wasn't it?

MB: Is that right? I'm not really sure.

MF: I think it was somewhere around there, yeah. I'm not sure exactly when. Maybe '76, somewhere in the mid-seventies it became just Mary Foust.

MB: Just Mary Foust?

MF: Yeah, but like I said, I really don't know a whole lot about it. I'm interested, though, to hear what people say because it seems like it was a neat experience. Let's see.

MB: The spaghetti incident. Has anybody told you about that?

MF: It's been mentioned to me. I forgot--I didn't realize that would have been 00:42:00while you were here.

MB: Yeah. One of the art projects, I don't really know what the assignment was, but I went to this. I was there.

MF: Oh, okay.

MB: I guess the assignment was, you know, make replicas of food out of other objects. I don't really know. I wandered in, you know, bumbling in without much knowledge about what was happening. But I do recall lots of--I may have this mixed up with another time, but I just remember a lot of fabricated food items, you know, the things that people had made to look like food. Well, in the corner of what used to be the outer gallery, the place where you walk up the stairs from the, I guess that's McGee, or McIver Street right there. In that outer gallery, in the corner, was this huge plate. I think it was like aqua in color, as I recall, and pounds and pounds of spaghetti. Now you know, this has become a 00:43:00big myth, you know.

MF: Yeah.

MB: I keep reading about it, the perceptions that other people have had. Well see, I was there, and I can't remember very much about it. It was not a big deal, you know. But I read that it was real spaghetti. I don't think that's true. I think it was rope. I think it was, like, just strands and strands of jute or some sort of--I don't know--some sort of, some sort of string, rope kind of stuff. That's what I remember. And it did have some kind of spaghetti sauce on it. I don't really remember. It was the consistency of real spaghetti sauce but I don't remember what that would have been made of. Surely it wasn't real. Well, these two women sort of disrobed and jumped in [laughs] but--and they were arrested. I didn't stay long enough. You know, again, this wasn't a big deal to us. And they were arrested. I think they were charged with appearing in the nude, I think that was the charge. But that was one of those incidents that 00:44:00really became part of the mythology of our day. That was one of those stories that everybody liked to recite and tell about because it was, for one thing, harmless, you know. It was really not any kind of horrible thing. But the fact that they were arrested riled lots of people because they felt it was inappropriate for them to be arrested. I suppose I was one of those people too.

MF: It made national news.

MB: Did it make national news? Well [laughs], it's--I'd love to know, I'd love to interview the two gals who were involved.

MF: Yeah, that would be neat.

MB: Yeah.

MF: I wonder if I could find out who they were.

MB: I could probably figure out the names.

MF: Oh, okay, yeah, if you could.

MB: Yeah, yeah. And I have the alumni directory. We could look to see if they're in there.

MF: Yeah, see what they're doing.

MB: Yeah, yeah. That'd be, that would be a really interesting interview. [laughs]

MF: See what prompted them to do that.

MB: Yeah, yeah.

MF: I don't know how active you've remained with the Alumni Association, but lately it's gone through a lot of ups and downs.

MB: Yes, I'm very aware of it, yeah.

MF: And so I guess I'd like to know what your perspective on that is.

MB: See, I'm editor of the alumni magazine so I've been rather close to it. And I've, I'm an ex officio member of the Alumni Board. [pause] Do you know how some things--let's just use the analogy of a marriage. MF: Okay.

MB: Maybe your spouse--I'm just going to make up something. Let's say your spouse leaves the cabinet doors open in the kitchen. And you think to yourself, "I don't like that. I wish he or she wouldn't do that," but you might not say anything. Then maybe a couple of weeks later you say, "Dear, please, close the 00:46:00cabinet doors in the kitchen. Don't leave them open." Let's say that the spouse is resentful that you say that. And you can see what I'm leading to. A very small kind of thing that's not very important at all can sometimes just, just grow into something that's bigger than it ever would have been. That's my perception of what happened here. But the cabinet doors started being left open years and years and years ago. And it just, during the last three or four years, became the issue that it really is. Now once you start noticing that your spouse's leaving the cabinet doors open, you're also beginning to notice that they squeeze the toothpaste from the middle instead of from the bottom. And then you start realizing they're not putting their shoes in the closet--

[End Side A--Begin Side B]

MB: So really, I think that is what happened here. There always have been and 00:47:00always will be tensions between a university and its alumni association. It's historic. It's true almost everywhere, I would guess. I've not done a study of it, but I know that these kinds of bumps have taken place at other places and will. The problem at its core is the fact that the alumni association director was at the same time the executive director of the Alumni Association and a university employee director of alumni affairs. So, in effect, the person in that position has two bosses and, you know, from any study you've done in management or--you know that that can't work. So there are a number of issues that--for example, the management of the Alumni House, the control of the alumni magazine, the funding of the program--that really needed to be worked out and 00:48:00really needed to be brought to the table and solved. Well, there were a lot of tensions and frankly, I think it was important that there were some because with tension comes resolution. If we'd all just put our heads under the sand and just kept going, then nothing would have been resolved, and there would be an undercurrent of negative feelings. And there's no reason for that. So just like the spouses having this huge argument about these things, we've gone through that sort of cathartic process. And now on the other side I think that there'll be a time where--well, there already is a change in the way that the association and the university are holding hands together. Part of it is that everybody wants everybody to feel good about the situation. Nobody wants to feel bad about it. But also the administration has remained the same. The players on the 00:49:00administration side, on the university side, have been the chancellor and others who were the same. And the alumni association, just because of its structure, the presidency has rolled over. The president serves a two-year term, with one year ahead of that as president-elect. So--and then the alumni board is on a rotating basis. So you've got a situation where one--I don't want to say sides--but one faction in this remains stable, the other is turning. And with that has come some new resolutions and new ways of seeing things. There's a--it is going to be a tough time for the alumni association from here on because now they're in a position where they must fund their own programs. And they've never been, they've not recently been in the fundraising game. In fact, they were told not to do any fundraising when the development office came together. So, and add 00:50:00to that the fact that everybody who serves on the alumni board is a volunteer. These are not professional, professionally-paid people for the association. So they are very important people who have other lives and other things to do in their lives.

MF: This isn't their full-time--

MB: That's right. So it's going to be interesting to watch. I frankly think the Association has bitten off a huge wad to chew on because just the fundraising part of it is going to be very, very, to my point of view, very difficult.

MF: Yeah, I can see that, yeah.

MB: It'll be interesting to watch, you know. And I don't mind being an observer in this as well as a participant. But I have enough distance that I can sort of back up a little bit and see what's happening with it. There's bitterness, there's bitterness on both sides.

MF: Yeah. I think with some of the alumnae that I've interviewed, there's a lot 00:51:00of bitterness over Barbara Parrish's resignation.

MB: Right, there is.

MF: But I did interview one person who said that they felt like her resignation was a matter of political timing to bring some issues to a head and that it wasn't like she was driven out, that they felt like it was sort of--I can't remember who this was, but I remember one person saying they felt it was sort of an opportunistic move. So I'm not sure. That's only the one person I've heard say that.

MB: Well, the thing about it, though, she was going to retire anyway.

MF: That's exactly the point that someone--I wish I could remember who it was. They made the point on the tape, though, that she was going to resign--she was going to retire anyway. And instead of waiting to retire the resignation was some attempt to make sort of a statement.

MB: A statement, yes. Have you interviewed or are you going to interview Barbara?

MF: Well, she's in the hospital.

MB: She just got out yesterday, in fact.

MF: Oh okay. I was going to go through Brenda Cooper on that and--

MB: It would be--

MF: It's up to her, whether she feels up to it or not.

MB: Well, that's a good point.

MF: But if she does, yeah, I'd really like to interview her. I'd like to do two interviews with her, one with respect to her time here as a student and then one with respect to her time here as alumni director.

MB: That would be just wonderful. And I think she'd be available and willing. She--they--she was here, was at the alumni house over the weekend for several hours doing some work for--putting together packets and things for the reunion that's coming up this weekend. So I'm assuming--I had not talked to her myself, but I'm assuming from that that she's physically able to, you know, stay active for that long a time. And she'd be able to do an interview, if she chose to do it.

MF: Yeah. Well, she may just not feel up to it.

MB: Yeah, she may not, yeah.

MF: There's a difference between doing something you enjoy doing and doing something that feels like you're being interviewed.

MB: Yeah, that's true. You're right.

MF: So I don't know. I'll probably see Brenda Cooper this afternoon, and I'll ask her. Is there anything you can think of that I've forgotten?

MB: Let's see. A few minutes before you came I had not thought anything about--no, I think I did everything that I had here. No. I want to say that there are probably, I don't know, thirty or forty, maybe more, people who work on campus now who are alumni. I really don't know what the figures are but a good, a good number.

MF: Yeah, there are a few that I've interviewed, at least two or three.

MB: I think that those of us who went to school here and now work here--of course, I'm prejudiced--but I think we have a real different perspective. I know that, you know, I care about this place so much, and that it can't help but be reflected in the kind of work that I do. I really want to put forth more of an effort because I care about the place than if this were just a job.

MF: Oh yeah, yeah.

MB: And I worked in two other colleges and I know that my affiliation was loose, you know. I really was hired there to do a job and--

MF: Well, you know more about the university here than just the department you work in.

MB: That's right, yeah. You have a bigger sense of what this is about and every, well, every institution, every place has its own personality, but just to 00:55:00know what that personality is. Well, it's like you said, you know, it's like, you know, I'm driving by in one of those Kawasakis and I'm able to do this because I know what the code is.

MF: Yeah, yeah.

MB: It all comes back to that, doesn't it? And the code changes, I suppose, but those of us who were in school here can pick up some of those subtleties that maybe someone else who didn't go to school would miss. I think that makes it really a special thing in both ways, again, because I think those of us who went to school here put forth a little extra of something because we cared. But also the university gives us back something more than the employee who's here without the benefit of having been to school here. You know, I can reap some more rewards from it when I see good things happening because I care so much, you know, about it. And I like that. You know, I've always thought it would be so much fun to just have a, I don't know, gather all these people who went to school here who now work here, gather them together and just pick their brains 00:56:00about that aspect. I think that's going to be my next thesis project or something because I just think that's a nice thing, a nice phenomenon that there's something operating that I haven't got my hands on that I'd like to know about.

MF: Yeah, that would be interesting to look at, yeah. I guess, finally, then, what kinds of things do you see for the future of UNCG?

MB: Well, we have a new mission and goal statement for the campus and it'll be very, very interesting to see how that's going to be accepted by [C. D.] Spangler [UNC system president, 1986-1997]. I don't think decisions will be made based on--all the universities of the sixteen system, all the sixteen campuses had to put in place in, I think it was January or December--I don't know, recently--their mission and goal statement. And what we've done is not 00:57:00ask--well, we've done a couple of academic changes. But it'll be more interesting to see what happens to the other campuses. Like, for example, if UNC Charlotte gets a doctoral program, what's that going to mean for us? That means many things. For example, we'll be competing with one of our neighbors for some of the same students. That's going to get, excuse me, that's going to get tighter. It means that--see, we've always had this excellent status as what you might call a "second tier university" within the system. We've got [North Carolina] State [University] and [The University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill up here, big-time research universities. Then here we are. We offer doctoral degrees. We don't tout ourselves as a big-time research university and I don't think that we want to. I don't think we're heading in that direction. At least we're not running in that direction. We're sort of skipping there, but that's not one of our big-time goal. But we've been by ourselves up here. You 00:58:00know, we were on that second tier alone. And then you've got Appalachian [State University] and UNC Charlotte and some of the others who are down here, and then there's this other sea of universities. So we have not--I don't know what that's going to mean for the future. But if we get some other friends up there on that same tier as us, it's going to have a, it's got to have a negative impact. It's got to have a negative--

MF: Well, I think it depends whether it's on the same tier in liberal arts or sciences.

MB: Well, you're right about that.

MF: Because like East Carolina has a medical school, but as far as liberal arts, they don't operate on the same level as we do.

MB: Right. No, I think you're right. Well, what that's going to do is force us to rethink. Okay, now, wait a minute, who are we? And why are we unique? Why are we unique? And what kinds of students do we want to recruit and what should be our mission? You know, even though we've issued a new goal statement, it's going to be interesting to see how we have to change that to find our special niche. And I think UNCG has had a hard time, 00:59:00frankly, finding its special niche. We haven't, we really haven't capitalized on the fact of that we're so unique. We've just allowed ourselves to be okay, we are on that second tier, but nobody knows that, you know. That's not a strong recruiting mechanism for us that I can see.

MF: Yeah. Well, I think before, when it was Woman's College [of the University of North Carolina], it was just a women's liberal arts school.

MB: Right.

MF: And--

MB: And it knew what it was and acted accordingly.

MF: But it has to be more than just that if it's co-ed.

MB: That's right.

MF: Yeah. That's interesting because like, one of the questions I ask alumnae from Woman's College is how they see, what they see is the change in status that occurred when it went from a woman's institution to a coeducational institution because you'd have to be blind not to realize that when it was a woman's 01:00:00institution it was among the top three women's institutions for a long time running in the nation. And then--

MB: And especially for the South.

MF: Yeah, especially for the South. Yeah, it probably stood alone in the South. Then it became coeducational and there are very many people who have never heard of it.

MB: Right. We do have an identity problem.

MF: Yeah, and so, you know, they've heard of UNC Chapel Hill, but UNCG, UNC Charlotte--and even UNC Charlotte with the pro basketball team down there now has become more well known. And so I've asked a lot of alumnae what they see, how they see that and--

MB: What sort of responses have you been getting?

MF: Oh well, I think some of them maybe can't put it into words but what they hint at is that the school began competing on a completely different scale 01:01:00and--but I think that some people are hesitant to say that because inherently what that means is that the scale for women's institutions maybe is not on the same par as coeducational. And I think that's something that somebody who wished it had stayed all female does not want to say.

MB: And another part of it is some people are going to feel uncomfortable with the fact that we have to compete at all, that we have to be aggressive in marketing the university. That's very distasteful for a lot of people because they think that we should just be here--

MF: Because that takes something away from academics.

MB: We should just be here. Right, that we're here and the students should flock to us because of who we are. Well, we know that doesn't work.

MF: Yeah, it's not just--you can't just hire good faculty and expect the students to come.

MB: Right. Well, in the Woman's College days, I don't know how much aggressive 01:02:00recruitment was going on. I don't know what kinds of outreach there might have been. I suppose it was more, shall we say, personal. You know, maybe, maybe my aunt would have gone here and she gave me a nudge to go in here, that kind of thing.

MF: Well, there is a very good reputation, very good business reputation among businesses and so forth, and so that in and of itself is sort of marketing, as well.

MB: That's right because it's already--the program is obvious to--

MF: And I'm sure that if you looked, you would find a lot of links between faculty, administration, so forth, and business leaders in the community. I'm sure you'd find a lot of links.

MB: I think so. I'm not--

MF: Even if they're just philanthropic, like Cone Mills. There was money from Cone that came here. I don't know that because I went and looked at it, but I'm 01:03:00sure--there's very little doubt in my mind that a lot of money probably came from the Cone family here. I mean, we've got Cone Dorm, Cone Ballroom, you know.

MB: Right.

MF: It's real typical of the time when the school was built for there to be a lot of money from wealthy families pouring in, and those families were attached to business and that sort of thing.

MB: That's true, but in the early days, well, for a very long time, this being--you know, this started out as a normal school, which means we were training teachers.

MF: Right.

MB: And there was a long period of time where if you, you could come here tuition free--

MF: --If you were going to teach.

MB: If you would promise to teach a certain number of years.

MF: I think four years.

MB: Four years maybe. So I hear stories of alumni who, because this was a [sic] 01:04:00inexpensive place to come, that that was why they chose to come here. And I think you're right about those business connections and family connections where some money came in. But you know, we didn't even have a development program as such until--George Hamer [director of development] was the first one, and I'm not sure what year he came in, but in the sixties, maybe, I'm not sure. I'd have to look that up. So all the fundraising that was taking place was done through the alumni association, you know. It was kind of everything comes around, doesn't it?

MF: It sure does, yeah.

MB: They were doing all the fundraising. Then when the development program came into place, the alumni association was told, "Don't do fund raising. We'll do that. You go do the friend raising. You go put on the events and make people feel good about the university, and we'll gather the money," so that those functions were separated. Now here it is, you know, now the university is into 01:05:00big-time fund raising and on top of that, the association has to raise its own money. So you know you and I are going to get solicited both ways, you know. The university's going to ask us for our money.

MF: Yeah, I get solicited already.

MB: Yeah, so you see--

MF: I have to say, "Wait till I get a job."

MB: Yeah, wait till I get out of school, right. [laughs]

MF: I don't have any money right now. [laughs] You don't want my money. It's like pennies and nickels, so--

MB: Interesting thing to watch, though. It's a unique thing. You know, in fifty years when you're writing the university's history--

MF: Right. [laughs]

MB: --the perspective will be completely different. It will be fun to see how it develops.

MF: Oh yeah, it will.

MB: I think we're really at a critical point.

MF: I feel that.

MB: We could fold up. We're not going to fold up and die, but we could slip, if we're not careful.

MF: Yeah. I think that although a lot of people have sort of a bad taste in their mouth for all the building that's gone on around here, I think I've seen 01:06:00more and more that that may be critical in pushing us up into a bigger league.

MB: It seems to me you have to have the facilities to support your mission.

MF: Yeah, yeah.

MB: And on top of that, you know, you have to provide--

MF: There has to be some student life.

MB: That's right. You have to provide a good environment for people to play and work or you can't, you won't have happy people. You know, when I was here many--

MF: There has to be a move away from the commuting student population being so large.

MB: You know, I think it's sixty percent now.

MF: Yeah, see, there's just got to be a move away from that.

MB: Yeah. I hear--the Pine Needles just came out yesterday, and I took one home last night to look at. It's an interesting format this year. Instead of having pages that has the senior class and the junior class and so on it, students are just scattered helter skelter in pictures around the perimeter of the spreads 01:07:00throughout. There's no--I can't find any--there's not alphabetical order. You don't even know if they're juniors, seniors, or whatever. But some of them have quotes next to them about, oh, I don't know, about two on every page has a quote on it, and many of them are saying, you know, "Why are we building this stupid fountain? Why can't we put money into something that counts?" You know, I'm just amazed at the students who are against the building of and the beautification of the place that they call alma mater. I'm proud of this place. MF: I think some people say that and don't really know what they mean when they say it. It's just something they've heard somebody else say, and it sounds logical so they say it.

MB: Could be, some parroting going on.

MF: Because I've heard a lot of people say, "Why don't you, instead of spending a million dollars on a fountain, why don't you spend more money to keep the library open?"

MB: Right. That's a very common argument.

MF: But that's something that's already been taken care of months ago, and you still hear people saying that. And see, that's, that clues you in that they heard it somewhere, and it sounds good but they're really not in tune with 01:08:00what's going on.

MB: Right. Plus a lot of students think there's just one pocketbook, the university just has this one stash of money and that the chancellor is saying, "Okay, I'm going to take out this amount of money and put it here, and this amount to put there." It's all--it's not like that at all. There are all kinds of complicated accounts and accounting systems. There are complicated restrictions on certain monies and there are--you know, it's not all state money. A lot of it is private money. Some is, you know, money that comes in from student fees, and it's all just a real complicated thing. You don't--it's not just one big pocketbook that he's [Chancellor William Moran] just pulling money out of.

MF: Yeah, yeah. But there are a lot of little pat phrases that I hear, and I'm real suspicious when I hear those because I realize there's a lack of understanding that goes behind them.

MB: That they're just picking up the phrase from other people.

MF: From someone else, yeah.

MB: Yeah.

MF: Which is similar to a lady I was interviewing yesterday who works in 01:09:00student affairs at [The University of North Carolina [at Chapel Hill]. [She] was saying that she's suspicious when she hears black students say, "Well, the university's not sensitive to my needs," because first she wants to know if they're meeting them halfway, you know. And so it's just, well, I mean it's different but it's the same idea that when you hear somebody say a pat phrase, you wonder how much understanding there is behind it.

MB: Yeah, yeah.

MF: And if you hear somebody with a legitimate complaint, that's one thing, but when you hear many people saying the same thing--

MB: And that information is out of date like you were saying with the library hours.

MF: Yeah, the library hours. That was an issue that was resolved early in--

MB: In the first semester.

MF: --early in the first semester. I would say less than a month and a half into the first semester, that issue was resolved.

MB: But you still hear it.

MF: And you still hear it because the people who are saying it now, they heard 01:10:00it, it sounded good, but they didn't--

MB: They didn't check it out to see if it was true.

MF: And so many of the students don't even realize that the library hours--that's an old issue. So anyway, I've taken up enough of your time.

MB: No, I've been delighted. Tell me who else you've interviewed. I'd just love to hear.

MF: Okay, well, let me cut this off.

MB: Okay.

MF: Thank you very much.

MB: Sure, sure.

[End of Interview]