Oral history interview with Cheryl Callahan, 1990

MF: Okay this is Missy Foy and I'm in the office of Cheryl Callahan. It's the 19th of January 1990. Why don't you start by telling a little bit about yourself- your education--just a few things about yourself to begin with?

CC: Okay, I entered The University of North Carolina at Greensboro [UNCG] in 1967 and completed a degree in sociology in 1971. From here I went on to [University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill to get a master's degree in guidance and counseling and completed that in the summer of 1972. That's when I entered into the real world, so they say--the profession of counseling at a college in Delaware. Was there for about four and a half years; came back to Greensboro; worked in the public schools; then came back to the University in August of 1979 as international student advisor; and have been here ever since 00:01:00and have been--in now my fourth position since I came back to the university. In 1981, I began work on my PhD here, parallel to my full-time job and family and completed my doctorate in child development and family relations in May of 1987. And obviously have continued to work here ever since. That's it in a nutshell.

MF: Okay. That's a lot of work to work on a doctorate while you--

CC: It was fun. I look back on it, and I say it really wasn't that bad. When I was going through it, I--there were times when I wondered if I would get through it, but I did.

MF: So you have experience at the university in the late sixties in addition to as a graduate student and employee?

CC: Right.

MF: Since the late seventies?

CC: Right.

MF: When you were here in the sixties, I know that [James H.] Jim Allen [campus 00:02:00minister, dean of students, vice chancellor for student affairs] had told me you were very active on campus. Could you tell me a few things that you were involved in?

CC: Well, I began during my freshman year as a member of Elliott Hall's [named after Harriet Wiseman Elliott, history and political science faculty, dean of women] board.

MF: That's, well, Elliott Student--?

CC: Elliott Hall is now Elliott University Center, and it was the student activities planning body for the campus. And each residence hall had a representative that served on that board. The high rises had two. Cone and Phillips-Hawkins [Residence Halls] were new. About that, they were new in the late sixties, and so the bigger ones had two representatives. So I got active in that and stayed active in that throughout my entire four years, moving from just a council member to board member and, ultimately, to president my senior year. Along the way, I participated in other activities. I was a member of Golden Chain [honor society]. I was--I did a little bit of work with student 00:03:00government, although student government and Elliott University Center were both such demanding kinds of leadership roles, you really couldn't do both. And I tended toward that, toward the student activity side of the house. You know, as I think back over it now, I know there was a whole long list of things that I did, and I don't--I'd have to pull out my annual to see what all I did because I can't remember. Elliott Center was--Elliott Hall was really my focus. I worked there and kind of lived there for all intents and purposes. I was involved in some other student organizations, but not as all-consuming as I was in Elliott Hall.

MF: So, you were aware of a lot of changes?

CC: Oh, yeah.

MF: Events that went on on campus within your capacity there--are there any that really stand out?

CC: Oh, yes. We were here in the days when--because society as a whole was 00:04:00challenging a lot of things--the Vietnam War and civil rights and so on and so forth. And I can't remember--I was--I think it was secretary of the junior class. That's--I was involved in class government, that as well. And we challenged some of the traditions as class government--the ring dance which we had. At that point we all designed our own rings. Each class worked with the ring company and had a little input into how you designed your ring and, interestingly enough, my class designed--and I don't have mine on today. I don't wear it every day. Around the top of the ring is a little chain that goes all the way around the top. We crea [sic]--we put that on there and then the torch on the side of the ring--that was something that we put. And some of the things we put on the ring are still there, which is kind of nice to know. Another big 00:05:00issue at that point--again a carryover from Woman's College [of the University of North Carolina] days, was dress. And we had these cute little uniforms that we wore to physical education that none of us liked. But we tended to dress and--. I remember, either my junior or senior, when pantsuits were becoming real fashionable. We were not allowed to wear pantsuits to work in the student center because we were ladies, and we had to wear our dresses. And one of the Elliott council members along with me--and she was not as traditional as I was--I tended to be more of the traditional kind of student, but she was more liberal. Bur we wanted to start wearing pantsuits. She wanted to wear jeans; I just wanted to wear pantsuits. So we went in to the dean, and we told her that we just thought it was time that we be allowed to wear pantsuits, that other women in the world of work were wearing it and so on and so forth. Well, it took a little struggle, but we finally got to. Now that was a big thing for us. It sounds stupid now, 00:06:00but it was a big thing then. Another big issue while I was here was alcohol. I was a student when they first allowed alcohol on campus. In fact when I was president of the student center, I wrote a letter to President [of the University System William C.] Friday saying that we needed to have alcohol on campus to support and boost the, you know, the school spirit. It was just important that we be allowed to have beer. Well, as a student affairs administrator today, I look back on that, and I regret the day that I ever did that, but it happened. And we finally were granted the permission to have alcohol in our rooms in the residence halls. And, of course, we've kind of gone full circle with that. We had it, and I'll never forget the first day we could have it. I've got a picture of me and my best friend sitting in my room with a beer. But it went from that to--when I first came back to work here in the late 00:07:00seventies, student government used to have keg parties out in the quad. And we'd have twenty or thirty kegs, and it was real troublesome. But then, of course, we've had to go back in the other direction. We can't--because the drinking age has been raised to twenty-one, so you know I've seen the cycles come and go. I was here when we first had it or legally allowed to have it. I should say legally--it was there but--I mean it still--and watched it go from that all the way to the "beer blasts," the students called them in the late seventies and early eighties, and to where we are today. So I remem--those are two--dress was one, and alcohol was another one. And obviously student demonstrations were real prominent when I was a student. We had a number of demonstrations out in front of the library related to the Vietnam War. We were--and here at the time when 00:08:00the civil rights unrest was at a peak, and a student was killed at A&T [North Carolina Agricultural & Technical State University, Greensboro]. And they pulled the National Guard in. And I remember looking at--having a curfew of six o'clock [pm] and looking out my window at the National Guard patrolling our campus because they put a curfew on on the campuses. And, as I recall, I think we even had curfews in the city. I'm not sure about that; I'd have to back and--

MF: There was a curfew on campus?

CC: Yeah, there was a curfew on campus. The dining hall would have to feed us early so we could back to our halls. And the National Guard patrolled to make sure we abided by that. So it did carry over from the A&T campus to our campus. Didn't have a lot of black students at that point, but we had increasing numbers. The Neo-Black Society was formed when I was a student here because the few black students that we had at that point knew that they needed that identity and formed that organization, which has over the years been one of the 00:09:00strongest, if the strongest organization on this campus on a continuous basis. So we had--we had food and boycotts too [unclear] the dining hall.

MF: Wasn't the cafeteria workers' strike at that time?

CC: We had a strike at that point, and I can remember being on a food line over here in Presby[terian] House when Jim Allen was campus Presbyterian minister. And obviously at that point, what we had in the cafeteria is nowhere near what we have now. But--and students would support the strike by not going in there to eat. There was some that did, but some of us didn't.

MF: Yeah, well, were there a large number of students here who boycotted the cafeteria?

CC: Oh, yeah. I couldn't give you a percentage. But now, remember I was a very traditional student, and I was not the type--I was not your demonstrator type, and I did it.

MF: Right. But it was a noticeable amount?

CC: It was noticeable, yeah.

MF: What about the relation--you were saying there were not many black students here at the time. What about the black-white relations at that time? Do you remember anything about that?

CC: I don't remember a lot of stress related to that simply because there were not a lot of them and they tended to support each other, necessarily so. I was--there were a number of black students who were very active with me in student activities in Elliott Center. And so you began to see these students involving themselves in areas other than the Neo-Black Society. They just--there were just so few in number. I don't think that we felt that central to our own campus. I mean, we obviously felt it in society as a whole and being in Greensboro, North Carolina, we felt the tensions from the civil rights movement very strongly. And a lot of us identified with those in many different ways. But 00:11:00we didn't have it quite to the extent here that some other campuses would have had. But, too, in the late sixties, your traditionally white campuses, as we call them today, we didn't have black students. We had very, very few. So it--the issue was not as strong as it has become over the years because the students, the black students, went to black campuses.

MF: I remember when I was a student here there seemed to be a connection between the black students on campus here and the black students at A&T. Do you recall if there seemed to be?

CC: I'm sure there was. I'm sure there was. When were you here, Missy?

MF: Around '81.

CC: Around '81. It was much stronger at that point. There were so--again there were so few here in the last sixties that you didn't feel the pressure or the attachment to A&T so much because at that point, the schools were still more 00:12:00separate, you know, than sister institutions in the system. So you didn't feel that that much.

MF: What about males on campus?

CC: Oh, males on campus. Well, Phillips was the only hall that had men in it when I was a student. 'Course things have changed there too. But we had commuting, town students we called them, town students. The ratio was like ten to one. And it--this is really strange coming from a woman who was here at that point in history. But I didn't feel like personally I was attending an all-girls' school simply because I worked in the student center. And the town students who were male had a lounge over there, and so I met 'em all. In fact, I married one of 'em. And Mike [Thomas Michael Callahan, class of 1971] and I--we've never proved this, but sometimes we think we may be the first couple to ever marry out of this institution. Jim Lancaster [assistant vice chancellor for 00:13:00student affairs, class of 1972] was in the class behind us, and he and his wife [Camille Galarde Lancaster, class of 1973] met here. But, you know, there was a whole little group of us, and we got to be real good friends. So in terms, except when I was in the dorm, I really felt like I was at a co-ed school, in terms of social relationships and interactions. Not in classes, obviously, because the guys just weren't there. But most of the other girls didn't have that sense. It was an all-girls' school to them. And, of course, at that point the commuting population was very small. We didn't, weren't--I don't even remember the enrollment, but it was a small percentage of commuting students, town students, compared to what we have today. But you'd go into a class; you might have one guy, maybe two. I didn't have a guy in my classes while I was a sophomore, and Mike and--I can see him as well--I just can't remember his 00:14:00name--ah, Fred--were in my class that first semester sophomore year. That's where I met Mike. And that was his first year here--he had transferred in, and thereafter, over half of my classes were all-female. They were beginning to make a difference by the time I was a senior because that was the year when we elected our first male student government president.

MF: How did that go over?

CC: Well, I mean, there were a lot of upset people about it. But I think at that point, too, the traditional gender roles that we had been brought up with still told us girls that "Them boys should be the leaders." And Lindsay Lamson [class of 1971] came along and involved himself in student government and ran for office. And there were several other guys, and a lot of them are still in the area. And the girls just voted for him. And I say girls because I still--when I 00:15:00was in school I still think of it as girls and boys. Today it's not; it's women and men. But you can tell--I mean I'm going back to that point in my life. He made some changes. There were a lot of traditions that been associated with the Woman's College that began to disappear--the sister classes, the concept of the freshman class being taken on by the junior class. And the junior class would help the sister or the freshman class form their model of government, and so on and so forth. That concept began to dissipate a little bit. The Daisy Chain, which was something that happened in connection with graduation.

MF: What exactly was the Daisy Chain?

CC: It was an activity and you can--there are pictures of it I know of that we've looked at--some of the pictures in conjunction with the Centennial [1991] of the Daisy Chain. And it was--I believe it was the--I don't, I really don't remember now when it was the sophomore class or the junior class who formed a chain of daisies--that was the school flower. And out in front of Foust 00:16:00Building, the old Administration Building, and it was kind of a little ceremonial-type part of commencement weekend. I never saw it so I don't know exactly what it was.

MF: Oh, okay.

CC: But I've seen pictures of it, and that was--I didn't go to a graduation 'til my own senior year, and we didn't have it. So that's why I never saw it. Rat Day was another thing that kind of went by the wayside. You've probably heard about that.

MF: I've heard of it, but I'm not exactly sure what--

CC: That's when sophomores picked on the freshmen. And there was just this day that was set aside, and sophomores told freshmen what to do, and you had to do it. Now it--they weren't dangerous things; they were stupid things like "Wear your right shoe on your left foot," and vice versa. "Wear your clothes inside out, upside down," whatever--"Walk backwards," you know, those kinds of things. That went by the wayside because it was--again, we were becoming liberalized in 00:17:00those days, and that was just too childish, so "We're not going to that kind of thing anymore." One tradition that I loved that--and I'm not quite sure how it, when it phased out--was the class jacket tradition. And each class had a color which the Alumni Association has over the years kind of kept up with the class, the four colors; and you had your jacket in that color. I still have my red class jacket. It hangs in my closed. And you developed your own emblem, seal, and had it put on your jacket. And we had a class song and a class fight song, and there was a lot of identity with class. But, again, when we hit our senior year, and Lindsay and some of the student government leaders at that point wanted more attention given to student government, the focus on class government just disappeared, and you don't have class officers anymore. It was student 00:18:00government, not [unclear] with the four different classes.

MF: Not delineated.

CC: Not delineated. And that's been put back into place just in the last year, last five to eight years. Recently that's been brought back to give a sense of identity. Here I mentioned the ring earlier. We had a ring dance every year when the rings were delivered. We had a formal dance. That went by the wayside. New traditions started to replace some of these old traditions. But it all happened in that cycle of society and the liberalization of society as a whole, and the same thing was happening on the campus. One tradition that needed to be stopped was what we used to do to Charlie [statue of Charles Duncan McIver, first president of the university] out in front of the library. On any given day, Charlie would get painted or decorated, and sometimes he really looked rather 00:19:00pathetic. And, obviously over the years, to continue to paint Charlie and then strip it off, it's going to--it was wearing on the statue itself. So that had to be discontinued. But, like on Ring Day, we would paint Charlie red. It was our class color, and it was our day and we wanted Charlie to be red. Valentine's Day we might decorate him with hearts and all that kind of thing. So poor Charlie took a beating.

MF: Yeah, I think he still does.

CC: Up until about--he still does, but nothing like it used to be. I mean, he was always decked out in something or painted with something, seemed like.

MF: Could that possibly be when they started with the idea of The Rock that gets painted now?

CC: Rock was brought on campus by APO [Alpha Phi Omega, national service fraternity] for that very reason--because the preservation of Charlie was becoming critical, and that's why the rock was brought on campus, yeah.

MF: Yeah, okay.

CC: APO was formed--the luminaires [candle set in sand inside a paper bag] started when I was a student. APO started that--a wonderful tradition that the 00:20:00campus has now every December. That was one of the new traditions that started as some of the older ones were going by the wayside. But, yeah, that's where The Rock came from. Please don't abuse Charlie any more. Do something else. And it's worked fairly well �cause The Rock gets painted regularly.

MF: Yeah, it does. I know you said that you had worked with international students when you first came back on campus. Were there very many international students here when you were an undergraduate?

CC: I don't remember any. And when I came back in 1979, we only had about fifty. Now, we don't have that many more now--proportionately we have more. We have more than one hundred and fifty now. And beyond the true international students, those who are here on visas. We have a lot of immigrants from around the world, who are students as well. But I don't remember that to mention at all.

MF: While you were working with the international students, did they seem to have any problems particular to their circumstances?

CC: Oh, yeah, cultural differences come into play. I remember a young--one young woman--I was the only international student advisor for two years. But, boy, I learned fast in those two years a lot about different cultures. And I had one student from Colombia. And she came from a very wealthy family. And she was put into I-House [International House, a dormitory], and it was very distressing to her because she didn't have a private room; she didn't have a personal maid; she didn't have a private bathroom; she didn't have someone to clean up her room. I mean, it was so traumatic to her because in the culture in which she was living--(Not that all Colombians lived like that) but in her culture in Colombia, those things were expected. And she expected them when she got here. Diets have traditionally been a problem for some folks. I know the food service does a good job of working with those students now. Communication has always 00:22:00been a problem. Different dealings just with the common issues of bathing habits because in some cultures you don't bathe like we do here. And that was an issue with some cultures--a lot, just what's different. The treatment of women--some of the men that I've worked with from the Middle East, the African countries, where women are subordinate, had a very difficult time having a woman as their advisor when they came here because they had to depend on me to get the documentation that they needed to even get here in the first place or go home and come back. And that's been a real problem for some of them. And it always will be as long as you have men coming in from cultures like that.

MF: I wonder if it created any problems for them in their class with a female instructor.

CC: I'm sure that there were problems that occurred, but, you know, we worked very carefully with them to help them understand the differences in cultures. And I would talk to professors and instructors occasionally who were having some difficulties with students. But, generally, we were able to work them through. A lot of them come, too, thinking that Americans are all rich. And then they expect us to--if they need something, there would be somebody there to give it to them. And there are some that happen, and that's always been a challenge, too.

MF: All right. I remember Jim Allen mentioning that in the mid- to late-sixties, the so-called parietal rules were going out the window. Do you recall any of that?

CC: Well, when I was a freshman, I and to sign in and out every night when I left the dorm, and where I went, who I was going with, and then when I came back 00:24:00in, I had to do the, you know, I had to sign back in. I didn't question it at that point. It was just something you did because you were told to do it, and I was an impressionable eighteen-year-old. Eighteen-year-olds today are far more sophisticated than we were in that day, but--and we had mandatory quiet times on the hall during the week, and so on and so forth. By the time--we had that throughout my freshman year. And I can't remember whether it was '68 or '69 that that was discontinued. You had to sign out, but you didn't have to say where you were going, with whom you were going and it was no big deal. And then by the time I was a senior, you just came and went. Now you had to be in by the time the doors locked, or you couldn't get in. We didn't have the key access that students have now. So if you were not in the hall by the time the doors closed, 00:25:00you were out. That was it unless you had a friend that would let you in, and that happens too. We didn't--we weren't allowed to have men anywhere except the common areas initially. And then by the end of my four years here, we could have them into our rooms. But we had to sign them in and out [unclear]. But, yeah, the in loco parentis thing and the laws that basically said the university was basically acting as our parents is why we had to sign in and out early on and say who we were going with and where we were going. And as they phased out over that time period, we could kind of come and go on our own.

MF: Do you remember it being something the students were happy about or something that just sort of happened?

CC: Well, it was there, so we did what we were told to do. But there were always some students who were rebelling against those rules because they were so restrictive. And it was the thing to do in that era--to challenge rules. And, 00:26:00you know, just like we challenged wearing pants over in Elliott Hall--we challenged it; we got it. We challenged not having beer; we got it. We challenged, you know, the restrictions in the residence halls related to visitation [unclear]. We didn't get anything like they have today, but we got some concessions. The signing in and out--so there were always that push. There was always a pocket of students, and it might have been a different pocket of students working on each of those issues, but they typically--a lot of them came out of student government, out student government leaders, because they were in a position to lobby with faculty and administrators than just your everyday student. That's still the way--I mean, if you're organized, you can be more effective, so--.

MF: Are you--I remember also earlier you had said about the high rises [residence halls] were new at the time.

CC: Cone was new.

MF: Cone was new.

CC: Grogan and Reynolds had been there for a while, but Cone and Phillips-Hawkins were new.

MF: Were they the sought-after slots?

CC: Oh, yeah, Cone especially. Nobody wanted Hawkins because it was so far away. I moved to Hawkins and lived there all my sophomore--same room, sophomore, junior and senior year 'cause we had the freshman quad. See, everything was freshman women in those days. So you all lived together as freshmen your first year, and then you dispersed to the rest of the campus. And we were--because nobody wanted to go to Hawkins because it was so far away, which I ultimately learned to love because I enjoyed the walk, nobody wanted--we were able to get a whole group of us from our freshman dorm, and we all were able to go over there and get in there together, which was kind of neat. So we had a little family that was already created, and we stayed there all three years. That wasn't true necessarily. The most popular ones then are the most popular ones today. Ragsdale, Mendenhall--yeah, that's just where you wanted to be.

MF: Okay.

CC: Oh, and Weil-Winfield.

MF: Oh, yeah. So did the--did people frequently get turned down for their requested rooms here?

CC: Oh, yeah.

MF: Was there any off-campus living at that time, do you remember?

CC: I mean, there were commuting students who lived off campus, but--

MF: Yeah, besides commuting?

CC: But group living? Ah, you know--

MF: Besides living with your parents and driving in?

CC: Very little. I'm sure there were a few students who had their apartments, but there--and some of the men who eventually--who lived with their parents initially, eventually had their own apartments and lived in many of the same buildings close to campus where students live today. So that was beginning to occur at that point.

MF: And do you remember anything--? When I was here, I don't recall very much about married student housing or anything like that. Do you remember anything?

CC: No, married student housing has only recently been discussed, and then there's always been reference to it occasionally. But serious discussions are 00:29:00recent. When I was here in the late sixties, we were traditional students. It was unusual to have twenty-five or thirty-year-old, much less forty-year-old, fifty-year-olds sitting in your class. That's not unusual any more. There's a good number of those students. But it was the traditional-aged student for the most part.

MF: Right. Do you--did you notice any major differences in student life or academic life from the time when you were an undergraduate and then when you were a graduate student?

CC: The school I came back to work at in 1979 was not the school I left in 1971.

MF: What were some of the biggest--?

CC: Athletics was on the--growing rapidly. The composition of the student body was very different. You had more men; you had more minorities; you had more commuting students. It felt different. You didn't--when we were here, most of us 00:30:00lived in the residence halls, so it was real close-knit group. You knew each other because you were smaller. There weren't that many of us here. When I came back, the student population not quite doubled, but almost doubled. So it just had a different feel. And more cars, more commuters, more buildings--it just didn't feel the same. And I love it like it is. I loved it like it was. And it's nice to see some of the things that were here before coming creeping back in into the new university. But I guess it felt more like a college still in the late sixties because it only went coed in '63. And prior to then, it was Woman's College. It felt more like a college still at that point. Today--in 1979 it really felt like a university.

MF: So, did you notice any difference academically?

CC: Oh, the programs were far--much more offerings in terms of academic programs. More diversity in the class--in the subject offerings within majors. If I were to compare the sociology major I got to the sociology major today or the social work major, much broader perspective in terms of course offerings. Obvious attention to graduate programs had come into play, and there was a growing recognition of the graduate programs. In terms of the attention that students, undergraduate students, get in the classroom from full professors, associate professors, senior faculty members, that still, that was, that's still here. That's one thing that really is needed at UNCG that you don't have at some of the larger research universities in that you don't have as many teaching assistants teaching freshmen. I mean, you've got some, but, you know, you can 00:32:00get some big research institutions, and a freshman might have all TAs [teaching assistants] that first year, whereas here you may have one, so--. But the breadth of the programs was different; breadth and depth of the academic programs was obviously present.

MF: Was there anything you noticed in regard to student/faculty relationships when you were going to school here, either in the sixties or when you were in graduate school?

CC: I think because there were fewer of us in the late sixties, we tended to--more of us tended to have a real close relationship in terms of a mentoring relationship or role model relationship with faculty than they do today. Numbers have increased; the institution's larger; there's more of a--there's more pressure on faculty for research. So they don't have the time to give students 00:33:00as often. Now some faculty give it and give it and give it. But some of the younger faculty, with the pressures on them to publish, just don't have the time to give it. And those pressures weren't on the faculty when I was a student here. There were some who did it, but the pressures just weren't the same. You saw faculty more often at student activities. They were more involved in advising student groups than they are today. But that comes with the development of the university. And that's one--there are benefits and disadvantages to it either way. So, yeah, I see a faculty today that's not as much in tune on the whole with student life as it was in the late sixties. Part of that was forced in the late sixties just because it was such an activist time in history. And they had to be involved with us to calm us down or get us off the street or 00:34:00whatever. But it was--that was just a real--I don't want to use the work "unique." But in my lifetime, those years were a unique time in history, in my life history anyway. There hasn't been a time quite like it since, and I don't know that there ever will be. There will be times that are like it in some ways, but--

MF: Okay, and are there any final observations you want to--?

CC: I don't know that there are any final observations.

MF: Or anything that you want to make sure you get a chance to mention?

CC: Well, there's probably a lot of little specific things that kind of--but they'll come to my mind after you leave, you know.

MF: Oh, I'm sure.

CC: I think that when I was a student here as an undergraduate, I had a real 00:35:00sense that people really cared about me. And today, I don't think students feel like that. But part of that may have been just the nature of the type of student that I was. I was the kind of student who involved myself, as opposed to the one who would sit in the room all the time. So I--you can't really make those generalizations anyway 'cause you're gonna find a lot of students on this campus who feel really cared about now. You're going to find some who really don't want to be cared about. They just, you know, do their thing and go home. So that--I think that's probably true across time; it just depends on who you talk to and what their perspective was. But I really did feel that. In fact, I came to this school to transfer. Most girls who entered here as freshmen in those days came to transfer to Chapel Hill because we couldn't go to Chapel Hill as freshmen at that point. And we were going to transfer to Chapel Hill after our sophomore year. I didn't do it because I just fell in love with the campus and the 00:36:00institution and stayed. And a lot of others did too.

MF: Yeah, I remember that was still a trend when I was a student here.

CC: It's not--it's been on the decline ever since then gradually to the point now where, well, we transfer in--our junior class is bigger than our freshman class because we transfer in so many people, a lot from Chapel Hill.

MF: I wasn't aware of that.

CC: Yeah, yeah.

MF: Okay.

CC: If there's anything else, you know, as you--that relate to that period that I might be able to respond to, certainly I'll be glad to.

MF: Okay, I appreciate it.

CC: You're quite welcome. I'll bet this must be--

[End of Interview]