Oral history interview with Louise Dannebaum Falk, 1990

MF: This is Missy Foy, it's the 20th of March 1990, and I'm in the home of Louise Dannebaum Falk. If you could start up, I guess, by just telling a little bit about your education, when were you at Woman's College [Ed. note: Mrs. Falk graduated from the North Carolina College for Women. The name of the institution was changed to Woman's College of the University of North Carolina in 1932] and a little bit about maybe what you've - briefly what you've done since then.

LF: Well, I came to Woman's College in 1925 and graduated in the year 1929. It was a very pleasant learning experience, and I felt that I received a very good education because I had such good teachers. I was particularly fortunate in my English courses. I had Dr. [Leonard B.] Hurley, and I had in history Bernice Draper, who at that time was superb. She - it was a much more intimate formal 00:01:00education than the student has now. Miss Draper took me every Sunday to a different church. Can you imagine such a thing today? And talked - we learned a lot about religion. In her classes in history, I think that was the first time I had ever had anything that resembled an art course, and she showed us examples of Gothic art, and it's been an interest of mine, art has, ever since. So I am very grateful to the faculty of what was then Woman's College, and it had - it was a very pampered existence. You had to sign up for a social - the social life was much stricter and much more guarded than I had expected. Of course, I had 00:02:00come from a very protective house and home, and I thought that college would be better. But this - we had to sign up for dates. We had to - we couldn't dance with a man on the campus, and women danced with each other. [laughing] And it was very interesting. The brightest girl in the college was the best dancer. She was Jo [Josephine] Hege [Class of 1929, 1979 honorary degree] and I think she is still living at Friends Homes [retirement facility in Greensboro].

MF: How do you spell that?

LF: H-E-G-E. And she was, she won the Weil Scholarship [for graduate study] in Winston[-Salem, North Carolina]. I think she went to Yale [University, New Haven, Connecticut]. I remember she could have gotten something for dancing too. [laughing] And let me see, what else would you like to know about it, if I can remember?

MF: Well, what was the student life like?

LF: You mean in practice or socially?

MF: Well, like you were talking about a little bit, like with the signing in and out and -

LF: Oh well, we signed in and out for dates, and we had to be in and the lights had to be out at a certain time, I don't know, I think it was ten-thirty [pm] or something like that. And our rooms were - had to be kept clean. There was someone who inspected them, and you never knew which day she was coming. And there was - it was a much smaller place and a very friendly place. And, of course, there were no men - no men at school. But there were a lot of men that somehow we got to know. And you were not allowed to dance. And I tell you, I hate to admit it, but I used to go to dances in the city. [laughs] And it was - we had a Student Government that functioned very well. And we had house presidents. Do they still have house presidents?

MF: I'm not sure if that's what they call them now.

LF: They probably don't call them that.

MF: Right.

LF: And when I became a house president, my whole philosophy changed. And we had somebody named Miss [Lillian] Killingsworth that was in Shaw Dormitory.

MF: I've heard of her.

LF: And Miss Killingsworth one night came to me - I had broken all the rules about going to dances - and said to me, "Get on your clothes. We are going to a dance and see how many of our students are there. And you have got to go in if I go in there just to see it, but you have got to go in." So I got in the car, and when we got to the dance I refused to get out. It was terrible. I couldn't go telling on people who were doing what I had already done. But it was - and she was perfectly furious, so we got back in the car and came home and never saw anybody. That was one of the things that went on. It was so strict. It was 00:05:00really - I suppose that it was a gradual evolution to what is now, but it - nobody - we all complained that it wasn't too different from what we were used to.

MF: You just expected it to be -

LF: Except we could dance. And we expected it to be better than it was. And it was, but I must say that I - the whole four years was a very nice experience for me.

MF: What about - you were saying something about Student Government and how it functioned. What dorm were you house president of?

LF: [unclear]

MF: How did Student Government work? What were your observations?

LF: Well, we had a lot of rules. And if you were caught breaking the rules, you 00:06:00came up for trial before the Student Government Association. And I think that the - our decisions were pretty fair. If you came in late, that was terrible. [laughs]

MF: Oh really?

LF: You had to be in by a certain hour if you had a date, and you had to be - I don't - you couldn't have them, I don't think, except on the weekend if I remember. And you had - and Student Government decisions were really almost final. They did go - Dr. [Julius] Foust was president then. They did somehow get to his desk. But I can remember I had worked on a chem - I was terrible in chemistry - and I had worked so hard on a chemistry paper, and somebody stole my chemistry paper.

MF: They stole it?

LF: Yes I think they thought they were getting my roommate's instead of mine. 00:07:00They should have. [laughing] Anyway, they stole it and it appeared - seemed - well it - when they - we went to class the last couple of days - the teachers said - the teacher was Katherine Wright. She was a wonderful chemistry teacher and she said, "I have received two papers that are identical. And I wish those two people who know who they are would come to see me after." Well I knew because I had to write another paper. And it had disappeared. And I - the girl who had taken it finally, I think she - I don't remember her coming up in Student Government. She was dismissed from the college.

MF: Oh, so she was expelled for cheating?

LF: Yes.

MF: That leads me to another question. Somebody else that I had talked with had brought up [sic] is that there was an honor policy that everybody really followed.

LF: Yes, you were supposed to. You reported people to -

MF: So did you - ?

LF: I didn't report it.

MF: Oh. Did you know people though that would report somebody for cheating?

LF: Yes, but I don't think cheating was as broad as - that as many people cheated then as do now.

MF: I'm sure.

LF: I bet it was very rare that people cheated. That was the most blatant example of cheating to steal a term paper.

MF: Yes.

LF: And when she got the wrong one besides. [both laughing]

MF: So that was a bad decision and an unintelligent decision?

LF: Yes. It certainly was.

MF: Well, also, I guess since we're talking about the classroom now, I guess that would be a good time to ask you about - . What was the relationship like between students and faculty?

LF: Well, you know, I just gave you an example. I don't know if there were many Bernice Drapers, but she was marvelous. She went out of her way to have a great 00:09:00relationship with her students. And I can't think of anybody else on the faculty - oh yes, the Hardr's. They - he taught - he was really a man for all seasons. He taught me French, and his name was H-A-R-D-R-E. Ren-. And he had a French wife and a lot of - well, I think he had four children. And we were at their house - all the students - every time they asked us. And she was a marvelous cook and so she had us often, and we loved to go. But it was - he was a very interesting man. He really had an interest [unclear] a great linguist and he had received a legion of honor from the French government. He was a great teacher. 00:10:00And he had so many interests. And he also formed the Alliance Francaise in Greensboro, and all the people - I joined it - that could speak French and were interested in France joined it, and he kept it alive. He was - he had a lot of charisma as well as knowledge. We had a wonderful faculty then.

MF: Was Miss [Harriet] Elliott [history and political science faculty, dean of women] on the faculty then?

LF: Oh yes, she was a good friend of mine.

MF: Oh, was she? Okay. You'll have to tell me more about her. Before we get to her though, let me get a sense - let me ask you just to tell me a little about dorm life and then some of the traditions. Then we'll get to Miss Elliott.

LF: Well, I think there was a lot of - I think there was a lot of - . In dorm life, I don't know, it was just - the rules we had to keep, and we were - 00:11:00weren't in our rooms very much.

MF: Yes.

LF: And the - athletics was a great deal for - and my roommate was a wonderful athlete. She was Rosalie Jacobi Newman [Class of 1929. And she was a great student. And we both went our own ways, and she - first of all, we each had roommates our freshman years that we couldn't stand, so we - I had said that I would go to college if I didn't have to room with Rosalie Jacobi. And she had said the same thing to her parents. We were from the same town, and we didn't like each other, but we ended up being very close friends. Plus we roomed together. I mean we were both desperate. [laughs]

MF: So you get those awful roommates out -

LF: We got - after the first six weeks, I think, they let you change roommates. And we made our room as attractive as possible. And it was nice. I'll never forget coming up here and seeing - I came on the train, I think - and coming - it was a real shock to me see the girls going to breakfast. They went in all sorts of costumes. [laughs] And they - it really did wake me up to the fact that I was in a women's college because I just saw hoards of them rushing to the dining room. And I was very happy here. I was supposed to come here for two years and transfer to Smith College [Northampton, Massachusetts], and I didn't. I stayed because I liked it so much. I didn't - I don't know if I could have passed the Smith College entrance exams then, but I stayed here four years. And 00:13:00I got - I met my husband here and got married. My father always says the best thing I got out of the college education was my husband. [laughs]

MF: [laughs] I've heard that before too. What about some of the traditions? I know they had the societies -

LF: Oh yes. The Adelphians and the - I think I was an Adelphian, and I don't remember the names of the others, but we took it very seriously. And we - it was the age of innocence in lots of ways with the things that we took as serious and important. I don't think the average college student today would have gone through all of the stuff that we did in the Adelphian Society. Do they still have them?

MF: Societies? No, they've got -

LF: Fraternities and sororities.

MF: Yes. The Greek system came on campus in, I guess, the late seventies - mid to late seventies.

LF: Well, this was a much more democratic thing in our day. Everybody belonged to one society. And it - there was no discrimination.

MF: No. Yes, I think that was the whole purpose of the societies rather than having the Greek system.

LF: Well, I certainly do like it better than the Greek system. The Greek system came up when I was on the Board of Trustees [1973-1981] that year.

MF: Oh really?

LF: And I fought it tooth and nail.

MF: Yes. I think that was the, [Reverend James] Jim Allen [campus minister, dean of students, vice chancellor of academic affairs], I think, tried to get it instituted.

LF: I can't really remember when it did. But finally I said to - at this time there were black - when I was on the board about five years ago, we had black members, and I thought it discriminated against them. And one of them came to me and said, "Don't worry about the blacks. I'm going to vote for the Greek 00:15:00system." Well, I just was shocked because it is a discriminatory force.

MF: Yes, because people are selected -

LF: That was one of the best features of the university - that it was not discriminating.

MF: I think some of the faculty rather opposed -

LF: I think so.

MF: - the Greek system.

LF: And I'll say this - when I went to school, athletics was absolutely - athletics for the students - there was no athletic scholarship. There was just plain fun for everybody that wanted to participate in the gym right on up. physical ed[ucation]. You took physical ed. And you competed. It was fun.

MF: And now it seems more like a business?

LF: It's like a business and it's like - well the few - I mean I think - education is getting more and more picky on who participates.

MF: Yes. Sort of elitist.

LF: Yes.

MF: What about Miss Elliott?

LF: Oh. Miss Elliott. She was a force. She was really marvelous. She was so energetic and so interested in students that - she used to come out here for meals when she had guests that were going to speak at the college. I always - I didn't always, but occasionally I invited them. She had a load of friends in town, and she was really an outspoken person for many things that the average North Carolinian at that time wasn't even aware of. She believed in equal rights 00:17:00for all people. She really did. And she taught that. And she brought us up to date in that classroom. She might not have known the name of the person on the back seat, but she got everybody to express themselves. And she was a great teacher and a force for good on the campus. And she got us into politics, you know. And she went to Washington [DC] and served as - I forget the title [Consumer Commissioner on the Advisory Commission to the Council of National Defense, Chairman of the Woman's Division of the War Finance Committee, Deputy Director of the Office of Price Administration]. But she loved it.

MF: Yea. I forget the title now too, but I remember that she -

LF: She did. She got us all interested in politics. That was another interest that I've followed and enjoyed, and it came from Woman's College. In this area.

MF: A lot of people that I've interviewed expressed some concern about the fact 00:18:00that they feel Woman's College, when it became coeducational, lost something.

LF: Well. It - some of it didn't get the same caliber of male students that it had in female. And it did lose something because for a long time after the men came in there were no women who would run for office in Student Government. It was ridiculous that they sat back and let the men take over. But I think it's better now. I don't know. Is it?

MF: The Student Government? I wasn't involved in the Student Government when I was here.

LF: You don't know who is the president of Student Government?

MF: I can't think of the name. No.

LF: It's a man though.

MF: I think it is.

LF: I don't know. I think there have been one or two women as president, but not very often, if that often.

MF: How long were you on the Board of Trustees?

LF: Eight years. [unclear]

MF: Just about. Sixties? Seventies?

LF: No. I think I got off about eight years ago. I wouldn't swear to it.

MF: So it was mid-seventies and early eighties.

LF: Yes.

MF: Okay. And I guess during that time they - let's see it was probably 1970 I guess they got allowed to have beer in their rooms and -

LF: Yes. I don't know. I don't remember that.

MF: I'm just wondering what other kinds of - I know you were saying the Greek 00:20:00system -

LF: The Greek system and also they wanted to subsidize athletics. And that came as a great, great, great problem. And I - it wasn't, let's see, this is 1990. Eight years ago would be -

MF: '82.

LF: '82. So this must have been in the seventies. I should know, but I don't.

MF: How did that go over? Subsidized athletics?

LF: Well, it was defeated. We had a lot of people on the board. Not a lot, not on the - they all - the men wanted it.

MF: All the men did?

LF: Yes. And I fought it tooth and nail. But it was defeated on the board. But it's - as you know, is not at this point - it's very strong to be into class I 00:21:00in the state, I think.

MF: Why is that? I don't know much about the issue.

LF: Well, it's demanding of more money and more training. That's what they're working toward - being in 1A.

MF: Yes. I think the slogan is "Division 1 in '91" or something like that.

LF: That's what they're working toward, and they'll probably get it. And it's really awfully sad, I think, that money can be spent for athletics and to the detriment of academia.

MF: Yes.

LF: But that's the way I feel. And they're not - that's - I think after all this scandal at [North Carolina] State [University] people might begin to see what can possibly happen. They didn't intend to have any trouble.

MF: Oh no. I'm sure they didn't go out and say "Let's do this really wrong."

LF: Yes, I know. I think subsidized athletics is full of pits.

MF: Yes - all kinds of problems.

LF: Yes.

MF: I know there - a lot of people have told me that with Student Government - that - well the words that keep coming up over and over again are that it was a - that Woman's College was a training ground for the women. How would you feel about that as far as your being house president?

LF: Well, I was on the senate. The senate - I think that must have been when I was house president too. I think it went together. But it was very good training. We tried very hard to be fair. And you never had had to judge anybody 00:23:00before, you know. [unclear].

MF: How did some of the women on campus seem to react to this openness to participate in Student Government and such?

LF: Oh well, they considered it an honor.

MF: And did very many really actively try to run for office? Was this very popular?

LF: Yes, I thought they did. That it was.

MF: So Student Government was really important then?

LF: Yes, I think it was. I think it functioned well.

MF: Do you remember a program that was known at the time as a commercial program, a one-year commercial program?

LF: Yes.

MF: Do you remember anything about that?

LF: No.

MF: You didn't know anybody who was - ?

LF: I might have, but I've forgotten. That was so many years ago. You want to know whether it was a successful program?

MF: Yes.

LF: I think it was. I think a lot of people that really couldn't go to college for a long length of time were able to get jobs.

MF: Yes, so in that respect it was helpful?

LF: Yes.

MF: Because I've heard some people say that the commercial program - gave me the impression it had really saved the school, and I've heard other people say they felt like it lowered the quality of the school. I've heard both.

LF: Well, there was both. And I think both can exist at the same time. And it 00:25:00did. There were loads of people that thought it was terrible that you had a one-year commercial, but there were loads of people that needed it. And, after all, this is a state school, and the people in the state were hard hit.

MF: Oh, right. How does that affect the enrollment of the college?

LF: Well, there were lots of people that couldn't go.

MF: And what did the atmosphere seem to be?

LF: Well, I think if you were depressed after you went home, you forgot it. The young forget.

MF: Yes. I know what you mean.

LF: Well, actually I left here. After I graduated, I went to New York [City] for a - and I got a job at Harper's Publishing Company and almost did - it was amazing that I even got the job, but it was not a very well-paying job at all, but I was glad to get it. And that was the year 1929. Well, the first - and the 00:26:00publishing business was the one that was hurt the worst. People gave up their magazine subscriptions right off the bat.

MF: Oh, yes.

LF: And so people were jumping out of windows and jumping all around and killing themselves, and I just went on blindly until I was fired. And I went "Oh." And I was the last one hired and the first one fired practically. And it wasn't a very good job; it was a glorified job, file clerk almost. And it was - and when I got home, I saw how terrible things were from the Depression [severe economic world-wide depression in the decade preceding World War II], and New York hadn't made any impression on me at all. I was still having a good time. But when I got back to Wilmington [North Carolina] where I was living, where I was born, it was another thing. It hit home with me then. It was the first time it sunk in just how terrible this thing was.

MF: Do you think some of the students being on campus were sort of isolated?

LF: Yes.

MF: So once they got there, they really didn't know what - ? Do you remember anything that was going on on campus that reflected that?

LF: The Depression?

MF: Yes.

LF: Well, I think the fact that a lot of people didn't come back. And the farmers just couldn't send their children.

MF: I think somebody actually told me that some of the dorms actually closed.

LF: It did. Of course, I got out. I was out of the worst of it.

MF: One of the other things I wanted to ask you about - I don't know how active you are in the Alumni Association, but I know there's this, for lack of a better 00:28:00word, a rift between the Alumni Association and Chancellor [William E.] Moran?

LF: Yes.

MF: And I really don't know much about it, except - well exactly what I just said I guess is about all I really know, and I was wondering what you knew about that.

LF: Well, I really am not very much up to date, but I am a good alumna, member of the Alumni Association, a good alumna. And I was on the search committee that found Dr. Moran, and so I really think I know him fairly well. And I like him. I think he's made a mistake. I think he's stubborn, and I think that a lot of the alumni are misinformed. I think that it's - it's amazing to me how this dislike 00:29:00of one human being can be molded into a ball that can destroy. And they have - I think they definitely have a real point, and I think both sides can compromise and I think both sides will. I think he's wrong in lots of ways, and I think the alumni is. I'd rather not say exactly what I do think.

MF: All right, but could you fill me in on what the issue is? I really - because a lot of people don't really seem to know exactly what is going on.

LF: Well, I've been through this. I'm very active on the Weatherspoon [Art Gallery] board, and I have been for years, a long time. And we had the same trouble with him. So he really wants to control, financial control, of all of 00:30:00the money-making institutions on the campus. Weatherspoon - we could get money from individuals to buy paintings, and also - this problem with the alumni, and they have a point, but I do think it can be ironed out and that is that the alumni executive secretary has to serve two masters. She is responsible for the administration as well as the Alumni Association. And she - the funds - a lot of funds come from the administration to the Alumni Association, and he wants to control all of it. And through the executive - controlling the executive director.

MF: So then the executive director would not be answering to the Alumni Association, but only to him?

LF: Yes, but I think that can be - I cannot understand why that can't be ironed out. And I think it will be. And I don't think there's any other college, any other university, that has that controlled by the administration, not in the sixteen [campuses of the The University of North Carolina] that we know. I think it's a very demand, a big demand of Dr. Moran. I think it's got to be changed.

MF: Yes. Why would he - ?

LF: Well, because it's the law, actually it's the law. It's the law in that the director come under the administration, but I might be misinformed myself. I haven't followed the Alumni Association thing at all well.

MF: Well, I guess just to get some idea of what's going on with that, maybe you could tell me a little bit about how it looks similar to what went on at Weatherspoon.

LF: I'd rather not. I'd really rather not.

MF: Oh, okay. Yes - well, if you don't want to.

LF: There's nothing wrong with it. We won.

MF: Oh okay, see I didn't realize that there had been a problem with Weatherspoon also.

LF: A lot of things have been going on for three or four years.

MF: Oh so it's still pretty recent?

LF: Well we've settled, but I really don't want to discuss it.

MF: Yes. That's fine.

LF: And I shouldn't discuss the alumni because I haven't really followed it closely.

MF: Yes, I know.

LF: I know they're trying to get it settled out at the Center for Creative Learning [Greensboro organization that focuses on executive leadership and problem solving].

MF: Yes.

LF: Creative Leadership, I mean.

MF: Leadership, yes. I was thinking Creative Learning; I was thinking - . Wait a minute - and now that you said Creative Leadership, I'm like - okay, I know what you're talking about.

LF: And they have a mediator.

MF: Oh really?

LF: Yes, they do. They have a mediator.

MF: I didn't know that. Is it like a - ?

LF: It's a member of the Creative Leadership staff.

MF: So it was somebody that both sides agreed on, I guess?

LF: Yes. Well, are most of the alumni terribly upset over this thing?

MF: Yes. Although the problem I'm running into though is trying to find out exactly what it is because most of them, even though they're upset, they really don't know what they're upset about.

LF: I would go to the girl who's taking Barbara's [Parrish, Class of 1948, Alumni Association secretary and director of alumni affairs] place.

MF: Brenda [Meadows] Cooper [Class of 1965, 1973 master of education]?

LF: Yes. And let her tell you. And then you'll get it accurately. You don't get it from me.

MF: See I've spoken with Barbara Parrish and Brenda Cooper. As a matter of fact, Barbara Parrish is the one who's been most instrumental in getting a group of people together to interview for this project. I know that Barbara had resigned, and I didn't realize until speaking with some of the other people that I was interviewing that she had resigned due to -

LF: You know, that's one of the things that I resent because for years she has been threatening to resign, and she used this occasion to dramatic effect Moran, 00:34:00and it's really not fair because she was going to resign anyway, and she should have long ago because she really -

MF: You mean the centennial celebration, that occasion?

LF: What, that she resigned?

MF: Yes.

LF: I didn't even realize it was the centennial. I mean that she said she couldn't take any more from Dr. Moran, and she said she had had it. And I think she had. But I -

MF: But she just waited for an opportune moment, yes.

LF: Yes and made it very dramatic. That she could stand there - and I mean she's very popular with the alumni and very good at it. But she's been there thirty-five years.

MF: Yes. See I think that's - since she's so popular with some of the alumni, they're upset, but a lot of them don't know what they're upset about.

LF: Well, I think that she has served her time, and she has wanted to get out. And she stayed on as a special favor until this moment, and then she was fired. 00:35:00This was a dramatic exodus, and they all fell for it. She was going to retire.

MF: Yes. It's funny all the little intricacies you find out about.

LF: Well, I'll tell you I don't think there's anything worse than campus politics. I really don't think the - the Democrats and Republicans, they could learn from a chancellor. [laughing]

MF: You're probably very, very right. [laughing]

LF: It's very strange to me that people who are supposed to be learned can stoop to such petty jealousies.

MF: Yes.

LF: It's unbelievable. I mean I've been here a long time, and I've been through a lot of chancellors. They all have problems. And [James S.] Jim Ferguson was a saint, and he had problems. And his main problem was subsidized athletics. He hated it.

MF: Oh did he?

LF: Oh he did. He was the only man around that did.

MF: I was just going to say, I guess he kind of -

LF: He had a real strong opposition, and I think he decided it wasn't worth it.

MF: Yes.

LF: This constant friction.

MF: You said you'd been through a lot of chancellors. Do you remember Ed [Edward Kidder] Graham [Jr.]?

LF: Oh I sure do. He was a good friend of mine.

MF: Oh, is he?

LF: Of course, he's dead now.

MF: Yes, well - was he?

LF: Yes. He and his wife both before they passed away.

MF: What do you know about Ed Graham? I know that Dr. [unclear] thought he was very interesting.

LF: Well, he was an interesting man. He had the ability to get the best people too. He got the best people here.

MF: I know that he - from what Dr. [unclear] told me, that he was very controversial.

LF: Oh, he was very controversial. He irritated most everybody. [laughs] He did it on purpose. And I think he really did. I'll tell you what - well, I think 00:37:00that he - I'm trying to think of some of the faculty involved here. But he had the - a really good time.

MF: I know.

LF: Randall Jarrell [English/creative writing professor, author, poet, essayist, United States poet laureate] was one of them.

MF: Oh, really?

LF: Yes, he was, and I don't know. But Ed had a lot of friends in town too. And he was very controversial. He did things to shock people. If you knew him - he got a divorce. He divorced his wife and married Miss [Elvira] Prondecki [director of Elliott Hall], and it was really very bad for his career, I think - the divorce was.

MF: It upset a lot of people, didn't it?

LF: Yes.

MF: Yes, I know. I can't recall her name, but I can remember that somebody else 00:38:00that I interviewed had said that she had known - after she had graduated - she was a commercial student - that she had worked on campus for forty-seven years or something, and she had come to know him and his wife. And she was really upset that they -

LF: Oh, all of us were that really knew Elizabeth [McFadyen Graham]. She was a lovely woman. And it was just too bad. I don't know what happened to him. But I think he was a law unto himself really, and I think he lived an unhappy life after he left here. Very unhappy.

MF: Yes.

LF: But he was a very bright man.

MF: Yes. I was told that he was a little wild too though.

LF: Well, he was. I suppose for his ideas, but he helped the university a lot in some ways and he hurt it in some ways.

MF: Yes. He helped with the - some of the faculty?

LF: Yes, and his ideas. He was a man of great initiative.

MF: Yes. And you said that he hurt it in some ways. In big ways?

LF: Well, I think this is a very conservative community. When you went to his office, he had his feet on his desk and that shocked a lot of people. He did this. He was very short. And I think that was his greatest disadvantage.

MF: I was told he had the short man's syndrome.

LF: He did. I think he did. I think he wanted to show off, and he did. He certainly did show off. [laughs]

MF: Yes. Somebody had told me - I heard a story about him being escorted home by 00:40:00the campus police one night.

LF: I haven't heard that.

MF: I don't know. I don't know how true it was. But it was kind of a cute story.

LF: [laughs] I don't know how true it was either.

MF: I also wanted to ask you if you knew Katherine Taylor [Class of 1928, dean of women, dean of students, dean of student services, director of Elliott Hall]?

LF: Oh, I did. I've known her since she was in the fifth grade.

MF: Oh what was she like?

LF: She was - well, she used to visit in Wilmington. Of course, you've got to go.

MF: No, I'm trying to keep an eye on the tape because it - the tape won't stop automatically. I mean it won't pop up, and so I'm trying to keep an eye on the tape -

LF: Oh really?

MF: - so that I can turn it over.

LF: Is it time to turn it?

MF: No yet.

LF: Well, Katherine was a great, great influence on this campus. I knew her because she lived across - her aunt lived across the street from me and my big 00:41:00sister. We used to come visit her aunt, who didn't know what to do with her. So she'd send for us because I had two brothers, and they let her play baseball. And I thought it was terrible that they wouldn't let me, but they let her. [both laugh] She was so beautiful my father said, "This child is going to be a beauty when she grows up." Well, we just thought that was the funniest thing. Anyway, she was. And she was a brilliant, brilliant scholar. And when she came back after she had won the Weil Fellowship. I forget what scholarship - she went to - wonder where she got her degree? - then she went into the - you've got all this material, that she went into the WAVES [women's branch of the United States Navy during World War II]. . MF: Yes. I knew she -

LF: Yes. And she came back to the campus, and the students just adored her. I think she was one of the most beloved characters that ever worked out there. She 00:42:00was in Elliott Hall, and she had lots of followers and she had lots of interests. She was more or less a director, but she had great influence, in spite of that. She read a lot. She knew a lot. She kept up a lot. And she was a Japanese-phile. She had friends in Japan. When I went there with my husband, we met them all and they were wonderful to us. But she had - she really will be missed someday. You know, she's not well now.

MF: Yes, that's what I heard. Somebody told me that she was a counselor for a dorm - I can't remember which - for a while and that while she was teaching she 00:43:00was a counselor and that she had a suitor and they were hoping she was going to marry him, but then she didn't.

LF: She had - I'm sure - I would imagine more than one. But she's an - was an independent soul. And her mother was living with her I think for most of the time, and finally she [unclear]. Katherine couldn't take care of her. I think her mother's still alive. I don't know.

MF: I could check and see, if you're interested.

LF: She was really a force on campus. She was another law unto themselves. [laughs]

MF: I wondered - I forgot to ask you earlier to - I know there were a couple of things, like there were class jackets and -

LF: Oh yes. Oh, we had class jackets. Everybody had a color. And everybody wore them with great pride and importance. [laughs]

MF: Yes. I hear that all the time, about class pride and -

LF: Oh yes, they had great pride in the things.

MF: And I don't remember when it started, but wasn't there something called a Rat Day?

LF: I don't remember that.

MF: Where the freshmen had to follow around the upperclassmen.

LF: I've forgotten it.

MF: I don't remember when it started.

LF: I don't either.

MF: And then the Daisy Chain?

LF: Oh yes, the Daisy Chain. It was really lovely. That was at graduation. Oh, and we had marshals. I think the marshals took you down to - I was a marshal, 00:45:00and I can remember that I had to - knew that auditorium very well, and now I could get lost. And I had a roommate that was a real protege of Harriet Elliott, and she put me up for office and managed the campaign according to Harriet Elliott, so I got a lot of offices including the marshals that I didn't really want. [laughs] But they made the campaign so interesting that people voted for me. So they - I think the marshals carried that daisy chain, and they also - they had - we had white dresses with a sash over our shoulder and our class number on it. And that's what we wore when we showed people to their seats. And 00:46:00oh, I want to tell you what was very important was the lecture series.

MF: Chapel? Oh no, the lecture series, right?

LF: The lecture series.

MF: I know what you're talking about, yes.

LF: They had wonderful programs, and people enjoyed going. I don't think we were forced to go. We went because we had some intellectual curiosity. And they provided excellent programs.

MF: What kind? Do you remember who you - ?

LF: Oh I remember - I think Clarence Darrow [American lawyer and member of American Civil Liberties Union] spoke here. He did.

[End of Side A - Begin Side B]

LF: How do you know what you've got? I mean, how do you know what's been recorded?

MF: Oh it's on the - that's on the other side. You were saying about the lecture series?

LF: They were really well attended and very good. I mean, it wasn't taken for 00:47:00granted, and we got the best that was available. There were very good people in charge of that. I don't know who it was, but they gave good programs - selective, good. There was a woman named Draper [?] I think who was a novelist that came down and she was marvelous, and they had political figures and they had all sorts of things that were fine.

MF: Yes. And also another thing everybody talks about is chapel.

LF: [laughs] We had to go to chapel.

MF: Yes. They checked your seats and everything. What kinds of things did they have at chapel? Do you remember?

LF: You know I think it was a devotional chapel. And they had different people come and preach or talk.

MF: One person had told me that once a year they hired some group called the 00:48:00Sedalia Singers?

LF: Yes, well they were from the black student [unclear]. They were very good.

MF: Were they?

LF: Yes.

MF: How were they received here as blacks?

LF: I don't think - I think they were - I think that generally the philosophy is that if you're a performer like a black basketball player today, you're accepted from the distance. And that was the thing that they did.

MF: How did most of the women at WC [Woman's College of the University of North Carolina] - it's just a thought that occurred to me off the top of my head. Since a group like the Sedalia Singers would come in, how do you think most of them dealt with race relations? I mean -

LF: They didn't.

MF: They didn't deal with it?

LF: They were terribly prejudiced. And it never occurred to them that - in my 00:49:00day, that they were going to ask for equality and come to their school. You know, North Carolina is not the most broad-minded state in the union.

MF: No, I know. [laughs] But - so most of them just seemed sort of isolated from it?

LF: I just don't think they even considered it or even thought about it. It was - when the Sedalia Singers came - I don't remember, but I don't think that they thought it was anything unusual. It was for their amusement.

MF: Oh yes. They would be entertained.

LF: Yes. They thought they were good entertainers. But that was it.

MF: Not that they were say perhaps good artists - ?

LF: No.

MF: - but just good entertainers who visited WC? Yes. Okay. That's kind of 00:50:00enlightening for me as far as the group - . That was just kind of a thought that came to mind. Well anyway, let's go back to talking about chapel.

LF: I think they tried to rotate ministers for it. I can remember. I'm Jewish and that the rabbi was asked to come and speak, and I remember still what he said. He was very young and very attractive. And he said, "If there's anything I would rather do than address one thousand women, it is to address one at a time." [laughs] We thought that was very daring. [both laugh]

MF: And he was cute on top of that too. I guess he could get away with it because of that, right? [still laughing]

LF: He said "address" not dress. [laughing]

MF: Yes. I caught it. Are there any other things about Woman's College or about UNCG, as it is now, that you want to make sure and mention? I know that's kind of a broad question.

LF: It is. Is there anything in particular you are interested in?

MF: Well, I had not realized until you told me that you had been on the board of trustees and so I was very interested in that.

LF: Well, it was a good experience for me. And I could have served - it was termed at - well, you could serve for ten years, and they told me I could serve two more years, but I think it - I think any job should be turned over after eight years. I mean anybody should do it. They need new ideas and new people.

MF: Yes.

LF: So I'm just - even though the law hadn't passed when I took the job I felt I 00:52:00should observe that and get off, and I did. It was a good experience.

MF: Yes. I guess during the time which you were there then was just the tail end after the Vietnam War [military conflict between North Vietnam and South Vietnam, supported the United States that occurred between 1955 and 1975]. Do you remember anything going on on campus as far as the - ?

LF: No, I don't remember. I think we were - I think the student body was aware of the war because they knew so many people who were fighting, and I don't know whether they ever thought it was a tragic thing. I think they - the loss of life really must have hit them very strongly. And whether we should have been there at all - I don't know whether they realized that there was any question. I don't know. I wasn't that close to the student body.

MF: Right. Yes. I know probably later on you'll think of all these things - oh, 00:53:00I should have told her about that.

LF: I was just trying to think. I haven't really thought this through very well. I think that the student body when I graduated in '29 and when I came back on the board of trustees was an entirely different group of people. I do believe that we studied harder and weren't as anxious to make money when we got out. And were probably - I don't know, I think this generation has been maligned in many ways in that they say that it's the "me" generation. But I find that a lot of people, particularly my own grandchildren, are not so crazy about money and are 00:54:00very anxious to help in some form of betterment of society. I don't know. Do you think that's true of today - that they've been maligned?

MF: I think it happens probably with every generation. Every generation it seems - the one before says it's less selfish.

LF: Well, I think - I don't know - I think that Harriet Elliott really gave something to this university when she made us feel that we did owe something to society and that we could serve and that we should learn to serve.

MF: So you think her perspective was more that you should serve because you're a person rather than that you should serve because you're a woman?

LF: Well, she was very interested in women's rights, as you know, and she wanted women to serve, but she also wanted to serve in a - as a - after they were educated. She believed - was a great believer in education.

MF: That women should be real people, not -

LF: Yes.

MF: It's sort of like - a lot of people today say rather than black history being a separate issue, why isn't it altogether part of history?

LF: Yes.

MF: That's the impression I get of Miss Elliott in regard to women. It's not like they should be something because they're women, but because they're people.

LF: Well she was a great role model. And so was Katherine Taylor.

MF: Yes, that's, that's what I've heard. Is there anything else?

LF: Oh I'll probably, after you leave, think of a lot of things.

MF: I'm sure. That's what I've been told by most people. After it's over, a lot comes back to them.

LF: Yes. Let's see. The social as I told you was a very restricted life. The academic life was not. I think that people came to learn, and they really worked 00:57:00at it. I think they worked harder than the students - I might be wrong about this student body and its work. I don't know - you've been a student for four years and then graduate work. What do you think? Do you think they work or enjoy working?

MF: I think it depends on the student. I really do.

LF: That's really true. But there is a sort of an atmosphere, an ambience of student life that - in my day, people really wanted to learn.

MF: So it was college for education, not for a social life. Well, thank you very, very much.

LF: Well, you're very, very welcome. I don't think I've added anything.

MF: I think you have. I think you have.