00:00:00WL: This is William Link and the date is November 30, 1989. I'm with Doris
McKinney, and I'd like to begin just with asking you what or how you came to be
associated with UNCG [The University of North Carolina at Greensboro]. What brought
you here, what were your earliest contacts and associations with the university?
EM: Well in order to answer that, we have to go all the way back to 1960. At
that time I was employed at one of the local colleges in fact, Bennett College
[Greensboro, North Carolina]. And I was working with both psychology and
physical education there. That was just about the time when these new sub
disciplines in physical education began to appear.
WL: Such as?
EM: Such as motor development, motor learning, motor control and sports
psychology. With the background that I had, I wanted to pull social psychology
00:01:00and physical education together to retool myself to be able to do work in those
sub disciplines. So in 1960 I joined the graduate school here and worked with
Kendon Smith [psychology department head] in psychology in order to do that. At
that time -- if I remember correctly, the institution was much smaller than it
is now. I think, in fact, at the undergraduate level it was an all-women's
college and they were just then beginning to take in males at the graduate level
in master's programs.
WL: Tell me a little bit about the graduate programs. There weren't many
graduate students were there.
EM: No, there were very few. I think you'll have to go back to the catalogs to
00:02:00look. I don't recall programs that went beyond the master's level. You know that
in physical education it was one of the first doctoral programs that appeared on
the campus. And that must have been somewhere around '67 or '68 when that
happened. So by virtue of that initial contact, I have always been closely
associated with the college and then it became known as the university. There
00:03:00came a time when I was at Bennett about 1964 when Bennett was interested in
building a new building or a gymnasium because Mrs. [Ethel Martus] Lawther [head
of physical education], who was then Miss Martus, had just finished planning and
getting built the Coleman Building. I made contact with her -- not having had
much contact with her before -- but I made contact with her to discuss our plans
that would be appropriate for a gymnasium in smaller college. So we became very
well acquainted. On to the other and during that interim, of course, I became
very familiar with other people on the faculty.
00:04:00
WL: So tell me a little bit more about Miss Martus. She was head of the
department at that time?
EM: Yes, there was a department, and she was head of it. She was quite a person.
She certainly knew curriculum. She knew what it was that she wanted to get. She
served as teacher and role model in a number of ways even though she was not
then active, let's say, on the gymnasium floor. But she was the key person when
it came to building the program and feeding the graduate level work so that it
00:05:00could be degreed at a level higher than one might expect from an institution of
this nature in the South. I've always heard that, "My heavens, an institution in
the South and you are doing all of this!" You have to recognize that today the
school -- I should say more particularly the department of physical education --
is within the top twenty throughout the country. At that time, it was really
very close to the top, if not at the top.
WL: So this was a crucial period in terms of building the department and the
national stature that it then enjoyed and has since enjoyed?
EM: Yes, and that has continued. Miss Martus surrounded herself with a faculty
00:06:00that were very loyal to her and to the department, and all work that had to be
done would find faculty standing shoulder-to-shoulder and pulling together. I am
not so sure that that is true at the present time, but things change. But,
therein, was one of her strengths -- that she was able to pull as dozen or so
people together and have them work almost as one. And her associations with the
vice chancellor and with the chancellor were excellent. Very frequently, as
spokesman for our department, she was able to affect things that might not have
been otherwise. In other words, you might say that she had quite a bit of
influence here on the campus. When the department had grown -- it housed at that
00:07:00time health, physical education, recreation and dance. It was just a department
that had all these sub disciplines -- I'll call it that although I know dance
would not like that and health would not like that, but -- it had all of these
within the department. As the department grew, the decision was made to turn it
into a school and that was done, I believe, about 1972 -- around that time --
and Miss Martus was then the first dean of the school. And she served in that
capacity until she retired and she retired in 1974. She is still very
00:08:00influential as far as physical education throughout the state and throughout the
country, really. She is a national figure, well known. Upon her retirement in
order to honor her, the School felt that it would like to set up annual lectures
to be called the Lawther Lectures. So every November some expert in one of the
sub disciplines of physical education is brought in for this formal lecture. And
the Lawthers participate in that. You have heard me change her name from Martus
to Lawther. It was 1973 -- '72 or '73 -- when she married John D. Lawther, who
00:09:00had retired from Penn State [University, State College, Pennsylvania].
WL: Also in PE [physical education]?
EM: Yes. Well he actually was a psychologist, but he was one of the early people
in this motor learning of which I have spoken. And when he came here -- in fact,
he taught for -- was it a year or two years -- he must have taught two years.
After his retirement from Penn State, he came here to help to get the learning
and sports psychology program off the ground. I had the opportunity to work very
closely with him. He is a nationally-known figure and quite influential across
the country.
WL: You were a student in the 1960s or took some courses here at UNCG and then
00:10:00came back officially as a faculty person, if I remember it correctly. How did
you find the department or School from that perspective? I think one always sees
things differently when one is on the faculty [unclear].
EM: You have to understand that I had completed all of my advanced work and that
when I was doing the graduate courses here, I was doing that to pull things together.
WL: So you weren't a normal sort of student.
EM: Right. The impressions that I had formed about the faculty during my contact
00:11:00with them during the '60s remained pretty much the same. And I think I described
that to you. They were a very loyal group that would pull together, and that
they would all be going in the same direction.
WL: Sounds like a very collegial sort of group. It must have been very pleasant.
EM: Oh, it was a very pleasant department to be in.
WL: What about the curriculum that the department offered? Have those changed
substantially as the students? And is the student body or population of both
undergraduate and graduate -- to what extent is that population changing in
terms of what they want and what they need since even before 1972?
EM: I think probably there was more or less the same direction back in the '60s.
Everything was geared for the teacher education program and not particularly
physical education. Health education was a part of the department; it had not
00:12:00pulled away and become a department of its own. The same was true with
recreation and with dance. And I think the dance was geared toward the fine arts
aspect, the performing arts, and health was geared toward what we call school
health education for the purpose of teaching health education in the public
schools. And recreation, at that time, didn't really have what you might call a
specific direction, but the persons who graduated from that became recreational
leaders [unclear] work in the Y [unclear] but it had not been designated as
00:13:00being a particular specialty in recreation such as it is today. There were a
large number of undergraduate students at that time. There was a goodly number
of graduate students, particularly at the master's level. As you recall it's
just a doctoral program. Starting in the '70s, and I'll say the late '60s, the
whole push in the field of physical education was to update fragments into what
I am calling sub disciplines, and it was recognized that a generalist who used
00:14:00to be able to work across the board and fulfill every need could no longer
handle the job. Students became interested in -- I'm talking about the graduate
students -- following one of these sub discipline specialties, and so when they
came in they might know, for example, that "I am going to specialize in exercise
physiology. I am going to specialize in sports psychology; I am going to
specialize in sports sociology. I am going to specialize in motor development
and motor behavior." So it was recognized that as students -- I am still talking
about the graduate level -- requested that kind of concentration, that faculty
00:15:00would either have to retool on the job or some specialists were going to have to
brought in. And I think that is where it is today, that these sub disciplines in
physical education are well in decline and national figures, specialists; people
are being brought in to handle that type of area. And, interestingly enough,
some of these people brought in for these sub disciplines have not been in
physical education. Some may have come out of business, or some may have come
out of sociology, or psychology, or something like that.
WL: Their degrees were in those fields rather than physical education?
EM: Right. There is some stipulation on that, however, that somewhere along the
line they must have had some kind of contact with physical education. But you
can look at the ads in the professional journals and what not, and you can
recognize that this is not the central focus any more. That someone can be able
00:16:00to handle these special areas, that is desirable. Now at the undergraduate
level, as I said, the primary focus up until about 1974-75, was on teacher
education and all of the other types of experiences that were definitely part of
the curriculum, but there would be a course so that they would have some
acquaintance with it. Now around about 1975 the move toward alternate -- what we
called alternate -- careers was made. So it became possible for undergraduate
students to, let's say, concentrate in sports science, which meant that this
00:17:00could be either exercise physiology or sociology or psychology. So sports
managers or sports media no longer had to go the route of a teacher education
curriculum. This was now a wide open curriculum, and they would elect -- in
conjunction with their advisors -- what would be most appropriate for the focus
they wanted. Those programs got off the ground very slowly, for whatever reason.
But there again, the students who were desirous of taking those were not
necessarily those who had been involved to any extent in physical education.
WL: So what happens to the story?
EM: I was just going to say that that curriculum has still been maintained;
00:18:00however, I don't know exactly how many students are enrolled in that. But I do
know that as far as physical education is concerned that we suffered some dull
years. At the time when all teachers were being looked at for a contribution
that was not making to the education of our students as well as the opportunity
of opening up the business in other areas that people would find much more
lucrative as far as salary was concerned. And so the student population dropped
off, particularly at the undergraduate level.
WL: That was part of the general impression in teacher related fields? There was
00:19:00a sharp decline in enrollment, is that accurate to say?
EM: Yes. WL: And what you are suggesting is that there was kind of a
reallocation of resources toward graduate students -- I mean there were more
graduate students proportionately coming into the program than there were
undergraduate students?
EM: Yes, at that time.
WL: Because I gather the other programs were flourishing, the degree versions of
the material.
EM: Yes, I think that it is safe to say, more at the master's level, as you
might guess, than at the doctoral level, but I think both levels at the present
time are doing pretty well.
WL: Tell me a little bit more about the other important figures in the
00:20:00department. The physical education department or school has had, I think, some
rather prominent people.
EM: Well, in '70 when I came here as well as backing up into the '60s, one of
the leading national figures was a member of the faculty. Her name was Dr.
Celeste Ulrich [Class of 1946]. She was quite a power and, as I say, nationally
known. She ultimately became the president of the American Association for
Health, Physical Education, Recreation and Diet. In addition to Celeste, Dr.
00:21:00Gail Hennis was present, a real sharp lady. And she was the coordinator of the
graduate program, again a very much known person across the United States. Let's
see, who else was serving on the faculty that would be of the same ilk? One of
the leading teacher educators in the country, Dr. June Galloway [1959 Master of
Education] was one the faculty at that time. And, as I say, all of these were
00:22:00very influential people, not only within the school but external to the school
and fine representatives and spokesmen for the program. I am trying to think
through recreation, health education. Of course, Virginia Moomaw was the
coordinator of the dance area, and she, too, was nationally known. In fact, here
at UNCG was really the first full-fledged dance curriculum that could be found
in the country. And so Ms. Moomaw was responsible for that and did a great deal
00:23:00along the way. Celeste left the university in 1975 or '76 and went to the
University of Oregon [Eugene, Oregon], where she became dean. I understand that
she will be retiring at the end of this year from that deanship. Dr. Hennis
retired in 1985, and I am not quite certain what she is doing at the present
time. Oh, I know one other person I wanted to mention and that is Dr. Pearl
Berlin who came here from the University of Massachusetts [Amherst,
Massachusetts], and she came in as what we might call a research professor. [unclear]
00:24:00
WL: How would you characterize the changes, if there were any, affecting the
university in the 1970's, just generally speaking, beyond your department? Did
you notice any big changes? If so, what do you think they were?
EM: Do you really want me to answer that? One big change that I mentioned much
earlier is that the institution got growing, and it just grew and grew and grew
so that today there are twice the number that was here originally. Certainly
additional graduate programs have been put in place, degree-granting programs
and doctoral programs -- world economics, psychology, and so forth, and within
00:25:00the School of Education. So from that point of view, it has mushroomed from what
it was. Big change. Certainly, the physical facilities of the university have
changed. There were no new buildings here at that time, except Coleman
[Gymnasium]. And certainly the mushrooming of the new buildings and the
renovation of the old buildings and so on.
WL: Did the buildings seem -- what was the state of the physical plan when you
came? Did it seem old, kind of rusty, or cob webbed?
EM: Very genteel. No, indeed, in fact the campus was beautiful. Very genteel,
00:26:00well-manicured all the time, beautiful trees, lovely flowers. No one made a
pathway across the grass. You walked the circular pavement.
WL: Everybody observed that.
EM: Yes, I would have to say that it was an extremely well-kept campus. The
buildings were old, but they were elegant and the behavior of students was
within the kind of environment that they found themselves. Rarely did you ever
00:27:00find any raucous behavior going on. So that certainly has changed somewhat. But
I guess you might have to say you would expect that because at that time it was
an all-women's college. Now I am not blaming it only the males, you understand.
[laughs] They used to have big fights about that, you know. So I would say,
definitely, that that had changed. I think that, certainly, the faculty has
grown. How much, I don't really know, but it would be quite a number. I would
have to go back and count on it. Certainly, with the affirmative action program
00:28:00you began to find a change in the faces of some of your faculty. When I came
here in 1970 there was one other faculty member, and that was Dr. [Joseph] Himes
in sociology. He had been here a year, he had been brought in a distinguished
professorship from North Carolina Central [University, Durham, North Carolina].
And I came in the very next year. That, certainly, was a change. And I don't
know who has to do the most adjusting to that situation. During that same time,
attempts were being made to bring in more minority students.
00:29:00
WL: Such as? Just more active recruiting?
EM: Active recruiting. Going out with these government programs that they had,
bringing in so-called hybrid students, and so on. This was going on. But the
attrition rate on some of the minority students was so high that it almost
seemed as if they were trying to fulfill a regulation in order to continue to
get this kind of funding. Now I am saying that should go off the record. So I
think that that certainly has changed the 1960 face of the university.
WL: Well, this is 1970s, but what you are describing is really a beginning of
desegregation both among the students and faculty. Fairly late, really.
EM: Dr. [James] Ferguson was the chancellor at that time, and before he would
00:30:00talk business with me at all, he would talk with the then president of Bennett
College and indicated to the then president of Bennett College what he wanted to
do by way of making contact with me unbeknownst to me. So, I guess, the way was
clear because the chancellor and president got in touch with me and offered me a
position in the physical education. And I am sure that my contact with Mrs.
Lawther, who was in this department, probably played a big role in that
appointment because they were ready -- they thought they were ready, for at
least one minority faculty and because she had worked with me in different kinds
00:31:00of [unclear]. She thought that that might be a good match. So that has changed.
WL: You mentioned a minute ago that there was a certain amount of adjustment
that minority faculty had to make. If you could elaborate on that for me. What
specific adjustments had to be made?
EM: Well, of course, when you consider that you had two versus maybe four
hundred, immediately you were different. I never ran into a real difficulty at
all, but one had to be very careful that one remained professional under all
circumstances because if one were overly sensitive then there could have been a
00:32:00number of altercations that could have arisen from that. That's what I mean.
WL: And the feeling of being different and, in a sense, put on the spot would
naturally be there.
EM: Right. That lasted for a while. But just for a while.
WL: Was there a concerted effort on the part of the administration to increase
minority faculty?
EM: Oh yes, I think so. Even under Dr. Ferguson, the attempts were being made.
At that time the affirmative action policies of the institution had not been
written down. But the push was to get this written down -- in other words, by
law. I had the dubious good fortune to serve on the first affirmative action
00:33:00committee they had here starting in the later part of 1970 -- no starting in '71
-- and I, as a part of that committee, helped to write the original affirmative
action plan to guide the university in their job. They were accepting, and Dr.
Ferguson, of course, tried to act upon those. Unfortunately, during that period
of time, persons who would qualify for positions, minority persons, were very
few and far between. There was no pool out there. It was very difficult to
00:34:00attract anyone. The pay scale wasn't that good. They were not getting offered
any security from the point of view of tenure or anything of that sort. So not
much progress was made. And I think that probably the university is finding
itself in a similar kind of position now as far as attracting minority faculty.
WL: Yes, while there is likely good intentions, perhaps, from everyone involved,
still the lack of positions [unclear].
EM: What is it now -- about five percent or something like that? I used to
00:35:00represent a whole two percent?
WL: One or two percent. Let me ask you also about -- I don't know how much you
can speak to this question -- minority students and how much adjustment they
have to go through. Presumably there was also a similar adjustment for the early
minority that were here -- even the one I knew. Were there very few minority
students in the early '70s?
EM: Very few, if any at the undergraduate level. And there were probably just a
handful at the graduate level, most of whom were over at the School of
Education. Very, very few. Today, of course, there has been an increase. We are
running about eight percent now. It's still not at the figure that they were
00:36:00aiming for unless you figure across all of the [unclear].
WL: I guess the university had minority students in very small numbers through
to '60s and '70s. Is that accurate?
EM: I think you would have found them -- they may have -- I wouldn't know, but I
think you would have found them more on the graduate level than among the
undergraduates. I think like all young people, they have to seek out their
identity. One of the ways that they attempt to do this is by banding together.
00:37:00And there was the formation of the Neo-Black Society. And that society was
operating when I came here. There came a time with that society when they were
[unclear] that apparently they were trying to be exclusive and not include any
of their white counterparts, so they were brought before a special body to
investigate this kind of thing. And, indeed, the record would show that, whether
they were doing this consciously or unconsciously that it was happening. And
00:38:00there were mixed recommendations about that. I served on this committee to hear
the cases, and it became quite clear that there was this pulling apart and
seeking of identity and closeness using their own minority group. I think we
still see a lot of that, unfortunately.
WL: Of course, the late 1980s is a period of the phenomenon of campus racism and
racial problems that are now all coming to the fore. Do you think that is new to
the 1980s? How would you chart the case of UNCG as to what was the nature of
early race relations?
EM: I think probably -- it has probably always been there, but that they are a
00:39:00little different. Any racism that might have been practiced, let's say in the
early '70s when I first came here, was not blatant. You just didn't hear some of
the horror stories that you hear these days. I think that the students
themselves were being fair and thoughtful and were committed also to affirmative
action, and they wanted to see things go right. But I am sure that, probably in
the dark of the night, I feel certainly that some of this probably went on, but
it did not surface. The one time that it did surface was the showing of The
00:40:00Birth of a Nation, [1915 silent film that portrayed African American men as
violent and aggressive and the Ku Klux Klan (organization that advocated white
supremacy expressed through terrorism) as heroic] when the minority students got
very much upset that this was being shown.
WL: What happened? Tell me more about that incident. It was about 1980, wasn't it?
EM: Somewhere around there. Well, they marched and demonstrated [unclear] and I
think it would have stopped [unclear] but the black students under the
leadership of a couple of the black graduate students just could not see that
this should be being done. The situation, of course, was defused -- that is,
00:41:00they had discussions about it and that sort of thing, so that really there were
no [unclear] that came about as a result of it. At that time, Mrs. [Betty]
Crutcher was serving as assistant to Chancellor Moran, and she invited me to go
see the film [unclear] view the film. And, of course, I could see why it might
inflame some passions and what not, and I guess because of the use of the group
00:42:00that it had been [unclear] rather than having it be placed in the context that
this had occurred. But I did not find it that horrendous.
WL: But the objection was that it exalted the Klan, glorified the Klan, and
presumably glorified white supremacy. Let's talk just a little bit about what
you think future prospects are for the institution. In other words, do you see
certain tendencies you noticed and observed in the '70s about your department or
about the university unfolding? What do you see in the future? It's big question.
00:43:00
EM: Yes, it is. First of all, I don't see, and I guess this has been a part of
the picture. I don't see this being the comprehensive university that [unclear]
would like to make it. I don't think you could serve two masters in this day and
time. So that if the university wishes what might be called a research
university, then it should do that. And if it wishes to become a comprehensive
university, then it should do that. I don't think it can serve both those
masters. However, I think that we'll probably see UNCG as probably second only
00:44:00to [University of North Carolina at] Chapel Hill in the place and the strength
it has in the state. As far as the department is concerned, I think that they
have already established the direction that they want to go. They want to be a
research department, and teachers become secondary. And it has been rumored
[unclear] that the undergraduate program exists, continues to exist and gets
support because it offers the opportunity for graduate students to get the
00:45:00degree. So I am saying that to say that the emphasis is moving toward graduate
studies and emphasis on research and what that implies. I guess with the move to
the PhD program, which was okayed a year and a half ago, that that does point in
that direction.
WL: And that implies a change in the future in the department -- school, as well?
EM: Oh yes, a change in terms of faculty, courses they offer and the
expectations of both students and faculty.
WL: And it is probably now accepted to say that that change has been reflected
00:46:00in other departments.
EM: It should and it has. I may be making a bold statement saying I don't think
a university trying to serve two masters might [unclear] conflict, but I think
in terms of the nature of the students they want to attract and the caliber of
the faculty you are not going to get this all rolled up into one.