Oral History Interview with Kayne Fisher, 2017

BR: So, we're here at Natty Greene's to do an interview for Well Crafted NC, you're one of the co-founders

KF: Yep

BR: of Natty Greene's, so I'd like to start with having you tell me a little about yourself.

KF: Okay, yeah. Well, my name is Kayne Fisher, and I am one of the co-founders of Natty Greene's Brewing Company. I started it with Chris Lester. I'll give you a brief history, and our direct connection to UNCG, because that's where we met, in 1988, we became fast friends and roommates and were working together and, you know, like a lot of college kids had big dreams, and ours really surrounded coming up with a concept for a bar. We had no idea what that concept would be, but we knew we wanted to do a bar. Probably for all the wrong reasons, at that time, but in 1989 we tried something that was 00:01:00foreign to most people, and that was micro beer. And we loved it, we fell in love with it. So, we dove in and we really started trying to learn more about it, where it was coming from, and we saw this huge following in Colorado, California, and the mid-west, and, so, what it really did was, one, it created a passion, but two, created a concept. If our dream ever became a reality, we would open up an American micro beer draft house, which we did in 1996, right in the heart of UNCG's campus, it used to be Spring Garden Bar and Grill, we were able to secure that location and we opened up Old Town with the idea of having seventeen American micro beers on draft, which was unheard of in 1996. I mean, now you can go to places that have well over two hundred taps but, in '96, seventeen was aggressive. And, not only aggressive in the number of taps, but the style of beer that we were trying to, you know, convey to the community. So, we opened it, and there was 00:02:00some skepticism at first, people, I think they thought it was a malt house, they weren't really sure what was going on with all these crazy tap markers and what not, but, you know, they soon understood the, kind of the, micro beer revolution that was to come, full force, in the state of North Carolina about ten years later, and so it led us to our second place in '98, we opened a smaller draft house in Winston-Salem called First Street Draft house, came back to North Carolina [chuckles] to North Carolina—to Greensboro and opened a taproom across town—and that's when the industry and the community really, truly started understanding micro beer, so much so that it transitioned from micro beer to craft beer, hand-crafted ales, hand-crafted beer, for short, you know, craft, craft beer. And, so, we saw this wave getting closer and closer to the east coast, and so we said, you 00:03:00know, we've been serving all this great craft beer at our draft houses, we ought to open our own brewery, our own brew pub. And so that's when we dove in on that. So that's kind of how we got started; I'll let some of your other questions lead, and I can complete this story and tell you where we're going and how the industry's changed quite a bit since we've gotten into it.

BR: Why did you choose to open a brewery in downtown Greensboro?

KF: So, perfect question to keep the story going. So, we saw—the reason we decided to get into it is because, you know, we had, you know, I told you, created this passion for it, but we also just saw this movement. We saw this movement that was happening throughout the country, and it was just getting closer and closer, and we just wanted to be a part of it. We had no idea where it would take us. We didn't care, we just liked it. And so, for us, the stars were aligned perfectly. Downtown Greensboro was revitalizing itself, we're in 00:04:00about 2002, this building that we're standing in right now, 13,000 square feet, it was built in the 1890s, a lot of history to it, three levels, huge, for our scale, for what we were used to. Our draft houses were about 20—or, about 2,000 square feet, and then we were looking at 13,000, but we knew we needed about six to eight to house brewing equipment, and all the manufacturing side, so this building was perfect. It was on the corner, here, of McGee and Elm Street, and so we didn't do any demographics, we just saw a beautiful spot and a revitalizing, or, at least, a push to revitalize downtown Greensboro, and we wanted to be part of it, just as much as we wanted to be part of the growing craft industry, we wanted to be part of downtown's growth.

BR: How has downtown changed since you opened in 2004?

KF: It's changed drastically, for the good of the community. You know, when we came down 00:05:00here, like I said, we weren't looking at, you know, are there residents here? Are there—is there any other retail? We were looking at, you know, continuing our dream, and we had the perfect location and, you know, building, that, to house that dream. And we just felt that if we could pull this off, more on the beer side, honestly, if we could get people to drink our beer, that means they're coming down. We did not know what to expect, we had very low projections because we did not know what to expect, and when we opened the doors, August 1st of 2004, we were pleasantly surprised. There was about 250 people waiting outside the door before we opened. I only had enough food for about 100 people, so we ran out of food right around 4:00, but we were able to buffer everybody's angst because they couldn't eat with free beer. We said you know what, we'll just sample our beer out, because we'll go ahead and get that in, and it's got a little bit lower margin, and 00:06:00we kind of screwed up, but we didn't know what to expect. So, it exploded. So, how has it changed? Well, it started with a lot of interest, and it was followed by a lot of new residents and tenants. And so, to the tune of, now, just about every one of these buildings that were empty in 2004 when we opened, are either filled, or they're claimed, and they're going to be filled. So, it's great. I mean, more the merrier. We couldn't be more excited.

BR: What challenges did you face while you were opening this location?

KF: We were fortunate. We didn't have to face too many challenges. I mean, you had to go through the normal licensing on the beer side, and the ABC side, but, you know, for us, it was, we were in a time when everybody was excited about something happening downtown. So, for us, it wasn't a whole lot of challenges, other than being able to put the 00:07:00food and the beer together. Because prior to opening this, Chris and I traveled around, we did a little two-and-a-half-week road trip to just go see what was happening on the east coast, southeast, and what we saw was, we saw a lot of brew pubs closing down. And so, when we looked into why they were closing down the one thing that we noticed was they weren't putting it together and didn't have a balance. They were either really focused on the food, and there was almost a high-end, white tablecloth, and they didn't really care about the beer, because they felt that, well, this is a niche. You know, that people are just going to come for anyways. Where, or it would be the opposite; the beer was really good, and they didn't care about the food. And so, our experience, through our draft houses, we were able to, you know, even though weren't brewing beer, we bought the best quality beer that we possibility could get in, and we paired it with the best quality food that we 00:08:00could do. And so, when we came here, our biggest challenge was to say, "we need to make sure we have that perfect balance," and we achieved that.

BR: Can you tell me a little more about what it's like to operate a restaurant in addition to the brewery?

KF: Yeah. For us, it was natural, because we had had—You know, if we had opened this place prior to Old Town, First Street, and Taproom, I would have a different answer. But we had four-six years of college education leading up to this place, so it worked out perfect for us to have a lot of trial and error with Old Town, and that was kind of our training ground, and when we went to First Street two years later, that was a little bit more homed in, where we could, and then Taproom was like [snaps fingers] just plugging a formula in. So, we had that background, that basis going into this. So, for us, it was just about putting it together, but more on the beer side. We had the food side down, but we 00:09:00hadn't brewing. We'd been bringing in great beer, so, what we wanted to make sure we did was have a world-class or a national-class brewer, which out of the gates, which we got from Colorado, from Left Hand Brewing Company, we collaborated on styles that we wanted to get out there, we like sessionable style ales, for many reasons. One, because we like to drink beer, more than one. Also, we needed to bring people down here to have a couple without having, you know, high A.B.V.s, at that time we weren't allowed to brew above six percent anyways, so our challenge was to just get the beer right, get it consistent, and it helped having a world-class brewer.

BR: What's it like to work in the craft brewing industry?

KF: I don't know anything else. I mean, on the restaurant side, and on the brewing side, but it's fun. It's challenging, and it's also been a very unique oppor—experience for us to be a 00:10:00part of something that has exploded like the Dot Com era, like I never thought anything like that would ever happen again, and here we are, the craft industry is happening, and we're part of it. So, just to see all the changes in the amount of breweries that are out there, not only nationally but locally, but also just all the other styles and the experimentation. I mean, it's just a fun industry to work in because of the crafting aspect of it; we can do whatever we want, you know. And now, you know, you're just expanding on traditional styles. I don't know even there's such a thing as traditional styles anymore. I think it's just all about exploration and having a good time, and we do.

BR: So, you mentioned that the ABV that you're allowed was increased. How did that impact what kind of beer you made?

KF: Pop the Cap, that movement was called, that got that taken care of, that opened the door 00:11:00for all the experimentation, and taken those traditional styles, and taken them to a whole new level, and opening the doors—it really opened the doors to more breweries. A lot of homebrewers that were doing stuff that was well over six percent decided that well, hey, I can get into this now, and just style that we were never allowed to do, you know, it just opened the door for that. So, it changed the game, it changed the game in North Carolina.

BR: Can you tell us about your new location in Revolution Mill?

KF: Yeah. So, as the story progresses, you know, from '96 to today, the industry on the craft side, especially, has changed drastically. I mean, downtown Greensboro's changed, so we've got more and more tenants and more and more residents, well, the craft beer industry's changed. We've got more and more breweries. And so, there's been this 00:12:00hyperlocal approach that you see, and you've seen this evolution in transition and expansions of all these other breweries, and so, for us, when we opened our brewing facility in 2006 to get into the distribution side of things, we opened just a production facility. The game was different then, the industry was different, it was more about just— "we want craft beer," people wanted craft beer, they didn't care about the style, they didn't care where it was coming from, they just wanted craft beer. And so, we kind of rode that wave, until about 2010, eleven when the industry got what I call the Asheville effect, and the Asheville effect is that attachment brewery, where you can actually go to the production facility, but you can experience music, and food, and you can bring your dogs, you can bring your kids, you have a good time and you leave with an attachment to that specific location, whether it's the city or that brewery. And so, in about 2012, 2013, we 00:13:00made, we started putting the plans together to transition from just a production facility to more of that attachment facility. And so, we looked around and we did our due diligence, and for—we were flattered, other cities were looking out—so we just kind of took a look, but our roots are here, as you've heard, and so when this Revolution Mill property was presented to us we were blown away. I mean, just to see the history and to know what it meant to Greensboro, North Carolina, to see the buildings that look much like this and were built in the 1890s as well, just was a perfect fit, and to be able to have space for the new brewery, which will be coming online next year, which will be 2018. It was just perfect, I mean, you just can't find a better area in a city that is going to allow for seven acres of attachment brewing, so we'll do the production, we'll have the tasting room and 00:14:00the offices, but we'll also have about 60,000 square feet of outdoor space to allow for kind of the fun stuff to happen, where you get that attachment. But prior to the brewery, we also, as part of this project, have opened a restaurant, a new concept restaurant, called Natty Greene's Kitchen and Market, and to us it's just the natural evolution of the brand. In Greensboro we haven't opened anything since 2004 on the restaurant side; we kind of snuck the production facility in in 2006. I think there's still that ninety percent of people in Greensboro, when they hear Natty Greene's, they think about this location, rightfully so. But now what we're having is an evolution of the brand. So, you're going to see, here we are, you know, thirteen years later, and we are opening this location to just kind of showcase everything that we've learned, our understanding of where the industry's going, 00:15:00and just a new concept to an old area. And so that'll open in July, July 25th of this year, 2017, with the, a unique concept; we're calling it the butcher, and the baker, and the beer maker. We're cutting everything in house, we're baking everything in house, and, to me, it just goes hand-in-hand with hand crafted beer deserves hand crafted food. And so, this is the next step in the evolution, getting us closer to the brewery.

BR: So, you talked a lot about the physical locations here, but you also have a pretty wide distribution range. What is it like to have that kind of distribution?

KF: Yeah. Well, it's—It's built the brand. So, distribution built the brand. When Chris and I started out, with Natty Greene's, you know, our idea was, if we were to distribute beer, which we did out of the gate, we distributed to Old Town, First Street, and Taproom, our 00:16:00draft houses, and that truly was the end of the business plan and of the model. And that changed in 2005 when we signed a deal with the Greensboro Grasshoppers, and that really opened us open to a whole different arena, no pun intended, to people sampling our products, and that's when people started inquiring about, "Hey, can we get this at our bar? Can I buy this at a grocery store?" So, Chris and I took a hard look into that, and before we made the decision to go into distribution, which we did in two thou—late 2006 and 2007, by selling our three draft houses to former employees, who still own them today, to fund the brewery. And, so, when we did that we were kind of all-in on the distribution side, we signed with some, a local distributer, which led us to North Carolina distributors, to really get the beer out there. In the course of doing that—

[train horn in background]

—we have history all over us; trains—in the course of doing that, we transitioned from a local 00:17:00Greensboro product to a state-wide brand that Greensboro could be proud of. So, distribution has played a huge, huge part in this, and it's, you know, it's part of the process now, it's part of the plan that runs hand-in-hand with bringing people back to our brewpub and to our, to the kitchen and market, and ultimately the brewery to get kind of that touch-and-feel of what they're pulling off the shelves or they're getting from their favorite, you know, local bar or restaurant. So, it gives them kind of a face behind, behind the brand.

BR: How do you view your role in the community?

KF: That's the first time, really, we've ever been asked that. We just feel strong, strongly about our community. I said that when we opened this in 2004 we didn't do a 00:18:00demographic search or we didn't worry about—we just kind of wanted to do what we set out to do. But in turn, we kind of took, you know, the first step into telling people it's okay to come downtown, letting the community know it's okay, and when that happened, that's when we realized that we had a little bit of an impact on the community and that we needed to get a little bit more involved. So, over the course of the last thirteen years, we have partnered up with local community charities, and groups, and you know, just kind of, just doing or part to make sure this community is known. I mean, you just see so many good things happening in other cities around our state, and there's great things happening here and we just want to make sure that people kind of stop and explore and the way we can do that is just by, kind of, you know, alerting our community, whether it's through our brand, or through other outlets. And so, our community involvement. Didn't 00:19:00start out of the gate as part of the plan, but it's very strong, and we feel like we're a big part of the community, but it's because of this community that we're who we are.

BR: Can you tell us a little more about the charitable events you have here, like Good Works Wednesday?

KF: Yeah, and that just parlays right into our partnerships. So, we do a Good Works Wednesday every Wednesday, where ten percent of our proceeds go to a local charity, it's really more for awareness, to help them out but also let people—You know, for years we've been doing, like, community events and charitable events and we just didn't say anything. We just did them. And this kind of gives it a showcase, to where it opens the door for everybody, first of all, because, you know, you've got to be kind of careful when you start doing this because it opens Pandora's box and you can't do everything for all, 00:20:00but you can on Good Works Wednesday. So, we do that, we have partnerships with the Humane Society and United Way and we'll continue to go with those as we add other ones, but yeah, for us, it's just, it's kind of what you do when you're growing and you're part of a community.

BR: Where do you see the brewing industry going in the next five years?

KF: I don't where the brewing industry is going in the next year, but what I can tell you is, is this is such a fast-moving industry, and what we've seen over the course of the last three years is this hyper local approach, where you're seeing now the breweries have transitioned, almost come full-circle back to the brewpub mentality. That's kind of that attachment brewery, where, when we opened this in 2004, it was like, yeah, it's cool, but breweries are where it's going to be. And now here we are, thirteen years later, we're—It's kind of come back to where you've got a brewpub and a production facility all in one. So, 00:21:00where I see it is, I see it being a very hyper local approach; I see the breweries in our communities, in our community, as pretty much your neighborhood tavern. You wouldn't open a place today without having some type of brewing capacity within your facility, whether it's a one barrel, a seven barrel, or a twenty barrel. So, I see it very hyper local approach, I see a very communal approach, and I see it continuing to grow.

BR: is your favorite beer from a North Carolina brewery other than your own?

KF: I like Foothills Hoppyum [Foothills Brewing, Winston-Salem, NC]; they're good guys and it's a great brew. You know, I know that some people may disagree with me, but there was a big splash made in Asheville when Sierra Nevada and New Belgium came, 00:22:00because they are not part of North Carolina, well they certainly are part of North Carolina and they've validated our industry, so I've always been a fan of Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, I respect their entire business growth, from how they started, and how they were the pioneers of this industry, to today, and I also respect New Belgium. And so, I like their Citradelic. So, those would be the three that I like: I like the Hoppyum, I like Sierra Nevada classic pale ale, and I like New Belgium Citradelic. The tangerine Citradelic; watermelon's a different story. [chuckles]

BR: What is your favorite beer from Natty Greene's?

KF: That would be our Southern Session IPA. It's a sessionable style; when we set out early on, we had about three, which has grown to five, core brands, and really the first three were Buckshot, it was Southern, and then we had a golden ale. But the Southern—the Southern 00:23:00is kind of our ode to Sierra Nevada, and our respect to them. And so, it was our attempt to have that style of beer. So that's my go-to: the Southern Session IPA.