Oral history interview with Chris Buckley, 2018

Richard Cox: Okay. Could you please start by saying your name and spelling it for us.

Chris Buckley: My name is Chris Buckley. That's C-H-R-I-S B-U-C-K-L-E-Y.

Richard Cox: Okay and today is Tuesday June 19th, 2018 and we're at Red Oak Brewery in Whitsett, North Carolina. I'm Richard Cox talking today with Chris Buckley, Brew Master as part of the Well Crafted NC Project. So, can we start ... if we start, can you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Chris Buckley: Yeah. I was born and raised in Germany. I've spent about 25 years over there. Eight of those in Munich, which some people would call the capital of the beer world, but arguably of course, but I'm a German trained brewer. Started my career back in 1995. Did a formal apprenticeship while working for 00:01:00the Paulaner Brewery in Munich. Graduated in January of 1998 from that program. Ended up spending five years with Paulaner as a Brewer and Maltster before going to the United States to purse my brewing career.

Richard Cox: Nice. Awesome. So, you got started brewing while you in Munich?

Chris Buckley: Yes.

Richard Cox: So, how is that? How does that differ from ... well, I guess when you got started here?

Chris Buckley: Well, the program that I was enrolled in is a very old program and I had several generations of Brewers and Brew Masters to talk to, to pick their brains on different processes and as technology changed, I was able to ask them, "How was it made before we had filters? Before we had pasteurization of the beer?" So, I learned a lot of things that I think would be really hard to find in some of the state side schools. The brewery, Paulaner, opened in 1634, I 00:02:00was working in a really, really old brewery. It was an awesome experience.

Richard Cox: That sounds awesome. So, you've been knee-deep in the Bavarian purity laws since you started?

Chris Buckley: That's right.

Richard Cox: Yeah.

Chris Buckley: And matter of fact, as part of the graduation process, the Mayor of Munich handed out silver coins that had the Munich Purity Law, which is older than the Bavarian Purity Law. Munich Purity Law is from 1489 and we all had to take an oath that we would adhere to the Munich Purity Law of 1489. So, pretty amazing ...

Richard Cox: Yeah.

Chris Buckley: ... time over there and I've been able to basically process and do this here in the United States.

Richard Cox: So, what are the differences between the Munich and Bavarian Purity Laws?

Chris Buckley: It's the exact same.

Richard Cox: Okay.

Chris Buckley: One just out dates the other, but they both called for only three ingredients.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: Malted barley, water and hops.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: The yeast was more or less the First Amendment to the document once we realized that that was an ingredient.

Richard Cox: Okay. And so, once you got over to the US, what started ... what happened with your career then?

Chris Buckley: And so, as part of what I was doing at Paulaner, at such an old brewery, I ended up working in the cellars. Over 250 feet in the ground. The hardest job in the brewery because we didn't have technology to know how full the tanks were getting. I was receiving beer from another department and we had to use our wrenches to tap on the outside of the tanks in order to determine the level.

Richard Cox: So, a sound test?

Chris Buckley: Extremely cold and loud environment. So, I just put an ad out there in the American Brewer Magazine, which I don't even think exists anymore. Classified ad just testing the waters.

Richard Cox: Sure.

Chris Buckley: And at the time, a Germany company by the name of Beraplan just 00:04:00outside of Munich had sold a brewery in Northern Virginia and they were looking for somebody who can run it. They happened to read the ad and I ended up taking the job in Virginia at the Birchmere Brewery in the end of 1998. Ran that from '98 through October of 2003. So, that was the first five years where I was in charge of running a brewery, where Paulaner I was a cog in the wheel.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: There were 78 Brew Masters there. So, when you clocked out at the end of your day, you didn't take your work with you.

Richard Cox: No.

Chris Buckley: Not it is when you're running a small craft brewery like I am today.

Richard Cox: Right. Exactly. So, what resources have you drawn on to help you grow as a brewer?

Chris Buckley: A lot of times just going back to the textbooks.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: We had to keep a journal and every day as part of the apprenticeship, in that journal was filled with lots of information.

Richard Cox: I'm sure.

Chris Buckley: And sometimes I remember having asked a question on a certain topic, not exactly remembering the answer, so I'd go back and try and find that journal entry and so, that's been huge. Still keep in contact with some of the workers in Paulaner in Munich. My mentor as well. So, always drawn back on those resources as much as possible.

Richard Cox: So, can you talk about any particular people you would consider to be a mentor or you have had a major impact on your career?

Chris Buckley: Number one was Andreas Höeflinger. That's H-O-E-F-L-I-N-G-E-R to spell it. He's in charge of the Filtration Department at the Paulaner Brewery in Munich. Ironic, we don't filter the beer here at Red Oak.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: But he's an expert in all things beer and I often found myself going back to him with questions. I knew I would get the best professional answer out there from.

Richard Cox: Sure and so, you started working at Red Oak in October of 2003. So, 00:06:00what was it like here ... or it wasn't even here actually. So, what was it like at Red Oak when you arrived?

Chris Buckley: Well, correction I started in March of 2004.

Richard Cox: March?

Chris Buckley: So, there was a gap in there between the Virginia and North Carolina.

Richard Cox: Okay.

Chris Buckley: Yeah. March of 2004 is when I started and ... I'm sorry, what was the question?

Richard Cox: So, what was it like at Red Oak when you arrived?

Chris Buckley: What was it like?

Richard Cox: Yeah.

Chris Buckley: We all start around a very small table. There were eight of us at the quarterly meetings and a very, very small operation. We were doing 10 barrel batches at the time and we were averaging 14 10 barrel batches a week 'cause we had so many outside accounts at the time. That little system was having a hard time keeping up.

Richard Cox: So, how large is the system now, for comparison' sake?

Chris Buckley: System now is 42 and a half barrels. 50 hectoliters.

Richard Cox: Okay.

Chris Buckley: Our old system is in the Red Oak Larger House on display in the 00:07:00gift shop.

Richard Cox: Oh, very cool.

Chris Buckley: Some people think we're actually brewing beer out of those vessels, but it's just a display right now.

Richard Cox: So, for people unaware of Red Oak and what it is, how would you describe Red Oak?

Chris Buckley: The brewery or the beer?

Richard Cox: Let's do both.

Chris Buckley: Do both?

Richard Cox: Go for it.

Chris Buckley: The brewery, we currently have a state-of-the-art system in order to produce very consistent beers, but we use a very traditional approach to beer making despite all the automation, we're just using four ingredients to create currently seven different recipes. We do not filter to beer. We don't pasteurize the beer. So, it's beer the way it used to be made. 100 years ago, this was nothing special. Today, the fact that you don't filter, you don't pasteurize beer makes it really special. The current purity law allows both filtration and 00:08:00pasteurization. So, we've taken one ... We're doing it the way it was in 1516, except we have hard drives controlling the timing and the temperatures, all the consistent features of brewing are automated.

Richard Cox: Great and y'all specialize as Lagers, correct?

Chris Buckley: That's right.

Richard Cox: Which is a little unusual in the area.

Chris Buckley: We just do the Lagers. Much larger capital investment because of the residency time per a batch in the tank where you can crank out a really good ale in less than 10 days, where a Lager's gonna take anywhere between one to two months because you're fermenting it at much colder temperatures. If you fermented a Lager at an ale temperature, it would be done in three to 10 days as well, but the flavor would be awful because that Lager yeast secretes some very foul tasting byproducts at ale fermentation temperatures, where the ale yeast secretes those delicious ale esters into the beer.

Chris Buckley: So, Lagers are a little bit trickier, they're less forgiving. I've seen a lot of recent articles in craft magazines where they're talking about the rise of Lagers, that a lot of these brewers are starting to roll out Lager beers. I think a lot of it is just the industry catching up because many people were self-taught when they got into the industry and the IPA is just simply the easiest beer to make well. It's very forgiving beer style, where the Lager's the exact opposite. Very unforgiving. Any flaws are immediately noticeable in the final products.

Richard Cox: All right. So, we touched on this briefly, but how has Red Oak changed since you first began working here? Seems like there's been a lot that's happened.

Chris Buckley: A lot has happened. We have over 40 employees. So, that's five times the eight when I first started here. We're brewing a batch size that's four times as well. Our distribution has changed quite a bit. When I first 00:10:00started, we sold beer in Charlotte, we sold beer in the Triad and in the Triangle, Raleigh-Durham and that was it. We're currently all up and down the coast. We took a quick look at the outer banks and figured it just wasn't worth the drive at this time.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: But all up and down the coast, we're a very strong presence now. We're moving one of the reps out west. He's gonna be setting up shop in Lenoir and focusing on that market, including Boone. We're stopping short of Asheville at the moment. Part of that has to do with the current 25,000 barrel cap that we'll talk about.

Richard Cox: Sure.

Chris Buckley: So, our footprint has dramatically increased. Probably one of the biggest changes since I started were in bottles.

Richard Cox: Okay.

Chris Buckley: When I first started, Bill Sherrill, the owner of Red Oak was in interviews being quoted as, "You can't bottle Red Oak because it's not filtered, 00:11:00nor pasteurized." And I had start telling him, "Don't tell them that, Bill. 'Cause once we bottle, they're gonna question how we did it." And we did have some early comments when we first bottled that, "Sad to see that they're filtering and pasteurizing in order to put it in the bottle." So, we had to start a real strong campaign immediately saying, "No. No, we're not. It's the exact same beer in the bottle." So, yeah. That's probably been the biggest change, being on the grocery store shelf.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: Which is huge for us as far as growth.

Richard Cox: It is. And so Red Oak began as Spring Garden Brewing Company in 1991 in Greensboro. I think it might've existed earlier, but I think that's when they were the beer. Before moving to Whitsett in 2007, what prompted the move out of Greensboro?

Chris Buckley: Simply, we ran out of room. We ran out of room. There was more property that Bill could've developed out there, but it just wasn't suitable and then logistically, our drivers would leave the exit at Guilford College Road and 00:12:00it's still almost 10 minutes to get to the brewery. So, that's 20 minutes of their day just getting on and off the highway, where here we're right on the exit entrance ramp. So, real convenient to hit Charlotte and Raleigh in the mornings and coming back in the afternoon.

Richard Cox: Yeah. So, you've mentioned the barrel cap earlier. So, let's talk about ... Red Oak has been an outspoken advocate of changing legislative restrictions on the brewing industry. Can you talk a little bit about the legislative changes you've faced throughout the years, as well as some of the ongoing legislative impediments?

Chris Buckley: Yes. We have to probably start with Uli Bennewitz, Weeping Radish. He gets credit for being the one to get the ball rolling. When he started his Weeping Radish Brewery, at first he was just selling in-house like most do and then he started getting local restaurants in town say, "Hey, I'd love to carry your beer." Then he found out legally, he couldn't make it work. So, he did go to Raleigh and he got some self distribution. Don't quote me on 00:13:00this one. I believe it was 1,000 barrels a year was what it initially was and when I started working for Red Oak in 2004, the cap was 10,000 barrels a year.

Richard Cox: Wow.

Chris Buckley: And Bill was, at that time, carrying the torch trying to get it raised. The bill that did pass initially was written for 60,000 barrels at annual production. In the last minute, they put a stroke through that and wrote in 25,000 barrels and passed it. That's where we are today.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: Over 14 years later, we're still stuck at that 25. If it hadn't moved from the 10, we wouldn't be sitting here today because it would not have made sense to build the new brewery out here in Whitsett. We'd still be operating out of the brewpub at 10,000 barrels a year. So, it just goes to show how many jobs that alone already created, being able to build a bigger brewery, to build our Lager Haus and our art gallery's going up now and if the state 00:14:00gives us the opportunity, we're gonna continue to grow 'cause we are adamant to stay under the 25,000 barrel production until this law eventually will change.

Richard Cox: And you all are probably pretty close to that, too?

Chris Buckley: We're getting close. We're making many business decisions to make sure we do stay under.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: Not a day goes by where people aren't asking for all of our seasonals in the bottle. Well, that extra volume could get us there.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: Why are we not trying to go into the Asheville market at this time? Again, it's a volume issue. This is based on production numbers. It's not based on beers sold and so, we could easily get to that 25,000 barrels if we're not careful.

Richard Cox: Right. Exactly. So, that gets into the current Craft Freedom Movement, right?

Chris Buckley: Yes.

Richard Cox: Which is currently moved into a lawsuit mode and if you wanna talk about how it got to that point?

Chris Buckley: Yes. When House Bill 500, which was on the floor in 2017 with great bipartisan support, when that failed due to the lobbying efforts of the 00:15:00beer wholesalers, it became evident that this was, politically, was probably not ever gonna change at all and so, Craft Freedom under the leadership of John Morino and Tom Ford with Olde Mecklenburg and NoDa Brewing decided to challenge it on legal grounds and the case at this very moment is looking great. Interesting to see what comes of it, but it looks very promising. The judge did not dismiss it. The state asked to dismiss the case. That's pretty interesting to think about. That's how scared they are about all the investigation that's going on right now. A lot of subpoenas have been issued and already, a lot of information's been uncovered. It looks like the tip of the iceberg as far as all the illegal activity that's happening.

Richard Cox: Okay.

Chris Buckley: To put things in a nutshell, what the state is saying it's a one privately owned company, like Olde Meck, NoDa, Red Oak, Raleigh Brewing, you 00:16:00have to give up your business to another privately owned company and that's what this is all about.

Richard Cox: Right.

Chris Buckley: And so, hopefully this is gonna change in the very near future.

Richard Cox: Great. So, Red Oak just opened the Lager Haus, Biergarten in 2017 as the first part of a multiphase 28,000 square foot addition. So, what else is going on here and what is the larger vision for the Lager Haus and other public spaces going forward?

Chris Buckley: Excellent question. Well, we've already run out of parking here at the Larger House, so we're having to add more parking spaces and with that, we have to put another retention pond on the property, which takes us to about $1 million worth of retention ponds on the property, but those are the rules. Next, the Art Gallery is going up. It's an art museum. I wish Bill was here to talk about it a little bit. He is addicted to collecting art. If there's a club 00:17:00for that, he should be their president. He literally has hundreds of painting in storage, all up and down the brewery, in his office and every available corner to lean a painting up, there's one there.

Chris Buckley: That's going up right now and probably looking at, at least four months of construction to get that going. We also have an extension to the brewery taking place right now. We've added a packaging hall, where we'll eventually be able to relocate our current packaging operation and add a few more machines to it to make it more efficient and we're adding on 2,000 square feet of walk-in cooler space that we're immediately gonna utilize as soon as they fire up the refrigeration, which I'm being told will be mid-July of this year. We're really looking forward to that. We are very tight on cooling space at the brewery at the moment.

Richard Cox: Okay. All right. So, how do you see Red Oak growing in the future?

Chris Buckley: I see it mainly ... Just the way it's been. We've never been logarithmic as far as growth goes. We've always taken baby steps cautiously expanding into a new territory. You never say never on going out of state, but I think we still have a lot of sales that are potential sales right here at home and so, we don't really see the need for doing that. The Lager Haus and Biergarten are a big part of the future. If you look at the current trends, the tasting rooms are the ones getting the people now. The sports bars are suffering. A lot of the chain restaurants are suffering at this time and all the statistics are showing the tasting rooms are where the people are going out and so, a perfect timing for us.

Richard Cox: Yeah.

Chris Buckley: 'Cause we're even seeing it internally in some of our outside accounts. We're seeing the sales are down and some cases, if they were doing two kegs a week, they're down to one. Not that they're drinking less Red Oak, 00:19:00there's less people filling the seats there these days.

Richard Cox: Right. Right. So, what would you say is your favorite beer from a North Carolina brewery other than your own?

Chris Buckley: That's a really hard question.

Richard Cox: It is.

Chris Buckley: There's so many good examples out there. I'd probably would have to pick the Foothill's Torch Pilsner.

Richard Cox: Torch? Okay.

Chris Buckley: Being a Lager guy, it's a really good example of the Pilsner beer.

Richard Cox: Great and this is probably an obvious one, but what would you say is Red Oak's flagship or signature beer?

Chris Buckley: It is Red Oak. Yeah. Red Oak and people, especially at the beer festivals, they come up and just say, "Just give me the classic," or "Give me the traditional one." Yeah, it's definitely the Red Oak. 80% of our sales in 2017 was still-

Richard Cox: Red Oak.

Chris Buckley: And so, that proves it right there.

Richard Cox: Mm-hmm (affirmative) and what would you say is your favorite beer from Red Oak?

Chris Buckley: It would have to be the Red Oak.

Richard Cox: Red Oak as well?

Chris Buckley: Yeah and out of the seasonals, it would be the Old Oak, which is our Oktoberfest style beer, but the Red Oak is just the all around beer.

Richard Cox: Awesome.

Chris Buckley: It's a hard one, where we get a lot of accounts asking us for food pairing recommendations and it's a pretty answer to that question. Red Oak is good with everything.

Richard Cox: It is.

Chris Buckley: And it is. It's not one of those beers where you might need a dessert with it or something really spicy. I think Red Oak really pairs with all the foods out there.

Richard Cox: Awesome. Great. Is there anything else you'd like to add?

Chris Buckley: No. I think that sums it up right there.

Richard Cox: Great.

Chris Buckley: There's a good future ahead for everyone at Red Oak.

Richard Cox: I think so. Thank you very much.

Chris Buckley: Yeah. Thank you.

Richard Cox: Thank you for your time.

Chris Buckley: Thanks, Richard.