00:00:00EL: Can you say and spell your name, and let us know what your title is?
SG: Yeah. My name is Sarah Gulotta. It's S-A-R-A-H and G-U-L-O-T-T-A. And my
position here at Hi-Wire is I am a production brewer.
EL: Awesome. So today is Thursday, June 28th.
SG: Correct.
EL: And we're at Hi-Wire Brewing in Asheville, North Carolina. So to start can
you tell us a little bit about yourself, your background, and where you're from,
and things like that.
SG: Yeah. I'm originally from a place called Downingtown in Pennsylvania. It's
just outside of Philly, so I'm a hard core Philadelphia any sports fanatic. Go
Eagles. I grew up right outside Philly in a town called Downingtown. It's
actually where Victory Brewing is. I grew up about a mile from that brewery.
00:01:00
SG: I grew up there. I went to ... First time I went to college, I went to
University of Virginia and I got my bachelor of arts in psychology, but I also
studied music and Russian while I was there. After college, I went back to
Philly for a little bit and then I moved out to Oregon, which is where I got
into beer. And now I'm here in Asheville.
EL: Yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about how you got into beer.
SG: Okay. So while I was at University of Virginia I actually really got into
wine. I think probably because I grew up so close to Victory, I was drinking ...
I was drinking good beer in high school. We weren't drinking, you know, rot gut
stuff. I was drinking craft beer. The first beer I ever had was Golden Monkey
from Victory. So I already had a very high level of what good beer was. And so
when I got to college and everyone's drinking like, Natty Light and Beast and
00:02:00all that crap, I didn't like it. And so I think it pushed me more towards wine.
There's so many amazing vineyards around Charlottesville. So it wasn't just
drinking wine, it was harassing these poor vintners telling me what they do.
SG: So when I graduated I originally thought I wanted to go into special
education, and I kind of decided that may not be for me, so I moved to Oregon,
like just kind of picked up and left, thinking I was going to get into the Pinot
Noir industry out in Oregon. Again, I just kind of went out there without a plan
and the first job that landed in my lap was actually at Rogue, just in their
taproom and their tasting room. Literally the night I ... That's in a little
town called Newport on the coast. The night I went there to go get a beer I
walked out with a job, so it was pretty cool.
SG: Once I started learning about beer I was like, "Oh, this is so much more
interesting than wine." I really fell in love with beer, and just Rogue makes a
00:03:00lot of different types, so I was able to really learn and really start to figure
out what I liked in beer, what was really interesting. So, I knew I wanted to
start making it and stop serving it. Right at that time my sister opened a
restaurant right outside Asheville here called Louise's Kitchen. She's like,
"Hey, there's a lot of beer in Asheville. Why don't you move out here? See what
happens." As soon as I got there they started the brewing program at AB Tech
[Asheville-Buncombe Technical Community College]. Like within a month it was
announced as soon as I got there. So I figured it was perfect timing, so I went
back to school.
EL: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the program at AB Tech?
SG: Yeah. I was the first class.
EL: Oh, wow.
SG: We were the guinea pigs a little bit. At the time it was really just ...
they basically just had one brewmaster, our teacher. They would have a couple
00:04:00adjuncts every now and then. It's actually grown a lot since then. Now they have
several teachers, and my old brewmaster is now just in charge of stuff. It's
really grown, but we were definitely the initial guinea pigs. It's a really
well-rounded program. It's not just focused on production, even though that's a
really strong component of it. Sales is also really important, marketing, beer
law. Just learning every aspect of the beer industry.
SG: So, it's really great for anyone ... not even if you just want to be a
production brewer like I am. A couple of my friends have gone to sales
distribution here at Skyland. They're doing great. They love it. Many of us have
gone on to be brewers, but it's definitely not the only option, which I think is
important. Education is becoming so much more important for the beer industry in
general. 10, 15 years ago you could just walk into brewery and kind of intern
00:05:00there and eventually work your way through and have no experience whatsoever.
That's getting harder nowadays. You can, but it's going to take you a really
long time to get to the position I'm at.
EL: Yeah.
SG: Having your education background now, it'll help you get a sales job. It'll
help you become a brewer so much faster, and that's what brewers, now that this
is a common thing, this beer education, now breweries are expecting that. So, it
was definitely a good choice for me to pursue.
EL: Yeah. And when was it that you ... when was the program?
SG: I graduated three years ago, so I must've started in 2013.
EL: Okay.
SG: It's a two-year program with a summer internship in between. That summer
internship is so important. We actually always take summer interns from the AB
Tech program. We find that the interns we get from them are always fantastic.
They're always great. That internship is so important because it really will
00:06:00show you whether this is it for you or not. We have had interns come in and they
can't cut it. If you're not okay with washing kegs for eight hours, we all had
to do it. We all have to do it still. I'm not above doing it right now. It has
to get done. It just takes a certain work ethic, and having these internships
... that was absolutely the most important thing, at least for me, because it
taught me that I- I can put up with this stuff, and I still like it.
EL: What did you do for your internship?
SG: I interned at a really small brewery out in Black Mountain, called Look Out.
When I started interning there they were brewing on a Sabco system. While I was
interning there they moved up to a three-barrel, and it was about to me and one
other intern to kind of figure out how to work it. We had to do a lot on our
00:07:00own, and we had to figure it out on our own, but that was really helpful.
Sometimes really getting your butt kicked, that's what you need.
EL: Yeah. Yeah. What kind of resources, even from AB Tech, but also since, do
you kind of lean on to grow as a brewer, to learn?
SG: One of the main things that I got out of the program is actually now I do
have this network of people that went through the program with me. One example,
a really good friend of ours, Sam, he used to work for Catawba. Every once in a
while he would run out of Biofine, so he could call us and he could come down
and pick up Biofine. Or if for some reason we're having an issue with yeast I
can call any number of people and we're not screwed for the day. I can go get
yeast. We can continue our brewing. Everyone wants to help each other out. And
especially coming out of that program we all want our friends to succeed and do
00:08:00well because, honestly, I just want to drink good beer, so if they're making
good beer then everything's going great.
SG: So, definitely just coming out of school already with a network was great.
Another network that I'm actually kind of newer to is the Pink Boot Society,
especially within Asheville. Online, if you have a question, you can just post
it. Women from all over the country, or actually all over the world, can answer
it, help you out. It's just women helping women, which is fantastic. That's
definitely a big resource as well. I think I ... I was kind of shied away from
the Pink Boot Society for a little bit because I- I sort of struggle with the
idea of, "Well, if I'm a woman in this industry why do I have to draw attention
to it? If I'm actually equal do I need to make a big deal?" I don't know. I kind
of just struggled with that concept.
SG: I was like, "Well, maybe I should just ... " Trying to figure out the best
00:09:00way to word it. For some reason I thought maybe blending into the background was
going to be the easiest way for me to look like I was just a part of the
industry, but now I'm realizing women still aren't there yet, so to be out on
the forefront is actually more necessary. So, it took me a while to kind of
learn that and come to terms with that, but now that I am I'm like, "Oh, yeah.
Women brewers, Pink Boot Society. Let's just get all feminine with it. It's
going to be great."
EL: That's awesome. We'll come back to Pink Boots in a few minutes. So, are
there specific people who kind of stand out along the way who you maybe see as a
mentor or who particularly helped you out along the way?
SG: Our brewmaster from AB Tech, his name's Jeff Urban ... Everyone calls him
Puff, lovingly. I just remember one of the first things you're taught in class
or what he said to us is, "I'm going to ruin beer for you." Because now I do
00:10:00think about it so critically. And mostly him kind of teaching me that's okay.
You should be critical. You should not just go along with things. You should
question everything. He's still a resource today. If I have an issue I'll call
him. He has a general attitude that I kind of admire. Just kind of get your shit
done and have fun. I don't know. Just like I kind of looked up to him a lot.
Just an overall really good guy. Yeah, I think that's everything. Sorry.
EL: So, you've been brewing professionally since 20 ...
SG: 2015.
EL: 15? It's only been three years, but there have been massive changes ...
SG: Oh yeah.
EL: ... here and industry-wide. Can you talk a little bit about some of those
changes that you've seen just on the brewing side. Not even just kind of the
community side, but just beer and beer styles and production.
00:11:00
SG: Well, first of all, it does still blow my mind that we're still opening
breweries. Even within ... I mean ... It kind of blows ... I'm like, "Really,
you're going to open another one?" But it still works. It's still going.
Obviously, there's always going to be some trend. I think when I first started
brewing here it was when sessions were really starting to take hold. And sours
have always been kind of building a little bit. Of course, now the trend is the
hazy IPA. You're always going to have the trend, and there are some breweries
that really kind of hitch their wagon to the trends.
SG: I'm really happy to see a lot of breweries are starting to take a little bit
more care in their ... in the classics. Like for here at Hi-Wire, we do our
lager and our brown. Those are my two favorite beers that we make. Like you
said, Carli [Smith, head brewer] at Bold Missy, her brown is fucking
00:12:00spectacular. Because trends will come and go, but people are always going to
want a good lager. They're always going to want a good brown. IPA is starting to
get ... I mean I miss the West Coast IPA. No one around here is making that
often, and not as well as I can get it on the West Coast. It's just kind of
these more classic style beers that I ... As beer drinkers are becoming more
knowledgeable about beer in general, I think that's going to lead to more people
appreciating the simpler styles. But, they're the hardest to make, and they're
just so good, they'll never go out of style.
SG: So, I'm glad to see that despite all the trends, those things are still
holding strong and still holding popular. But, I think just the amount of growth
is just so massive. I mean we're about to open our third taproom out in Durham.
00:13:00We just announced that last week. Now you're getting to the point where there's
not only more breweries opening up, but you also have more breweries having more
taprooms. The growth has just been exponential. Asheville I think is starting to
become a little saturated. I think it's going to start leading to some ... I
think it's actually going to make people make better beer. I've noticed that
it's made people have to step up their game, and I think that's just going to continue.
EL: Yeah. So, let's talk about Hi-Wire.
SG: Yeah. I love Hi-Wire.
EL: So, what initially kind of attracted you to the position here? What led you here?
SG: I knew that I wanted to work for Hi-Wire when I graduated. I didn't even
apply anywhere else. My then boyfriend, no husband, he's a cellarman here. Back
when Hi-Wire was just starting out, so this was before we started school. We met
00:14:00in school, me and my husband.
EL: When did Hi-Wire ...
SG: Hi-Wire started in 2000 ... So, 2012, 2013.
EL: That's what I was thinking.
SG: So, right when it was opened, it actually started in the only brewery to
fail in Asheville. It was called Craggy. It was the only brewery to fail here in
Asheville. So, the guys from Hi-Wire took over the space. They actually kept on
one of the old brewers from Craggy because he knew how to work everything. So,
that brewer's name is Luke. My husband's ex-girlfriend used to live above Luke,
and he would literally stalk Luke. Luke would take his dog out to go pee. My
husband would take his dog out, be like, "Hey, I hear you're starting a
brewery." So, he basically stalked Luke until Luke gave him an internship, an
unpaid internship.
SG: At the time John was preparing to go to school like I was, and they were
like, "Well, why don't you just stay on? Don't go to school. We'll hire you."
00:15:00And he was like, "You know what? I think in the long run getting an education is
going to be better," so he left. But, Hi-Wire kind of told him, "As soon as
you're done come to us. We'll give you a job." So, when John and I both
graduated I got to know the guys from Hi-Wire really well ... because of that
relationship. Hi-Wire was just opening this facility, so this was 2015. Hi-Wire
was just opening this facility, expanding from ... Let's see. I think our first
year we were almost 10-thousand barrels a year, and that was probably like
triple production from before.
EL: Wow.
SG: Yeah. It jumped up pretty quick. So, he got hired on here as a cellarman.
They were still putting the bottling line together, so they weren't ready to
hire anybody else quite yet. So, I was like, "I will take anything that you will
give me." So, they were like, "We have a tour guide position that's going to be
like one day a week." I was like, "I'll fuckin' do it. Sounds great." And I just
00:16:00got my foot in the door. Welcome to Hi-Wire.
EL: What initially attracted you to the position here?
SG: I knew I wanted to work for Hi-Wire when I graduate, actually before I
graduated. My husband had a really strong relationship with Hi-Wire. He interned
here actually before ... like right when Hi-Wire was starting to become a thing,
when they were just one location, small brewery. He stalked the head brewer. He
used to live above him. So, every time the head brewer would take his dog out my
husband would take his dog out and stalk him. So, he interned here unpaid for
about nine months before we started school. Hi-Wire initially was like, "Don't
go to school. Come work for us." But, my husband wanted to get his degree, as
did I, so when he graduated Hi-Wire was like, "We'll hire you," right off the
bat. So, he kind of knew he was walking into a job right when he graduated.
SG: Just from getting to know all of the folks here through my husband I just
00:17:00really liked the culture, and I knew I really wanted to work for them. I knew
they were going in a really great direction. I loved that their base, their
flagships were a lager, a brown, and an IPA, the classics that I love, but they
weren't afraid to do weird shit too. So, I always liked the direction they were
going, and it's also ... I'm very visually stimulated. So, they always had the
prettiest labels and the best marketing, so they suckered me in. Like I said, I
knew I wanted to work for them. I didn't apply anywhere else.
SG: When I graduated they were opening this facility that we're at now, the big
top. The bottling line was still getting up and running. They were still even
trying to get the brewhouse up and running, so they weren't ready to hire
people. The only position open was a tour guide position like on Saturdays from
like one to three, and I was like, "Fuck it. I'll take it. Sounds great."
because I knew I could get my foot in the door, and I did. And I did that for a
month, and a month later our, um, operations manager, Ben, was like, "Hey, I
00:18:00need someone on the bottling line," so then I did work on the bottling line for
about a year and then, uh, came time to move up to the brew house. Um, so I
definitely moved up through Hi-Wire. I started at the very, very bottom, and I
moved up to a production brewer. I don't know. I always felt really proud of
that. I did that ... I went from tour guide to brewer in two years, so I'll take it.
EL: Yeah. Yeah. What would you say is the main mission for Hi-Wire?
SG: Hi-Wire's purpose, our mission, is to ... Beer is supposed to be fun. Not
take ourselves so serious. That's why it's a frickin' circus. That's why there's
a tiger behind me right now. It should be fun. Hi-Wire completely embodies the
idea that you can take the science of making beer seriously without taking
00:19:00yourself too seriously. I think that can be kind of an issue with a lot of
breweries nowadays. It's starting to get all hoity-toity and get your nose ...
Beer is supposed to be fun. So, it's making beer accessible. Our lager, it's a
simple lager. It's a German-style lager. But, if we have someone that's drank
Bud Light their whole life they can still drink something here. It shouldn't be
something that is exclusive. It's making craft beer accessible.
SG: Here at this production brewery we really focus on our flagships, our brown,
a session IPA, an IPA, and our lager, obviously. We have a very strong lagering
program. The best beer that we make here, my favorite beer of all time, is our
Oktoberfest. It's called Zirkusfest. We actually won a gold medal for it at
GABF in 2016. It's the best beer. I was like brewing it two years ago. I'm like,
00:20:00"I just want to drink it. It's so good."
EL: Let's talk about the process of brewing that one.
SG: Okay.
EL: What goes into it?
SG: That one, so we use German Weyermann malts for that one. I mean it's mostly
pilsner, but we also use our Munich. When you win a gold medal at GABF with a
Weyermann's malt they send you these bright red overalls with the Weyermann
thing on it. Except it was like too small. They don't fit anyone here. I think
they fit our super skinny brewer, but we just have them hanging on a rack back
there. It looks like Mario got raptured. It's awesome.
SG: It is a just really nice malty beer. It gets lagered for eight weeks. It
takes a lot of care. A lot of craft breweries are hesitant to make lagers.
00:21:00They'll do them every once in a while, but to really do them right, they're
tying up your tank for eight to 10 weeks. We make some higher gravity lagers
like a Dopplebock and a Baltic porter. Those will have to sit in there for 10
weeks because they're 10% beers, so they need to hang out there for a while. A
lot of places can't afford to tie up your tank that long. Hi-Wire made it a
priority very early on to be able to do it.
SG: So, we do have a lot of fermentation space, specifically so we can make all
of our ales, which we can pop out in two week's time. But, then we can actually
sit on these really good lagers and let them fully just get super clean, super
crisp. We're doing it right. That was the other aspect that really drew me to
Hi-Wire was the care that was going into these beers, that if you really want to
do them well you just got to be careful and you got to take your time. I'm so
excited for Oktoberfest.
00:22:00
EL: Yeah. Sounds delicious. Let's talk a little bit about the system.
SG: Okay.
EL: Can you talk a little bit about the system that you guys have and the
production that you guys are doing these days?
SG: Absolutely. We have a 30-barrel brewhouse. We have mostly 90-barrel tanks.
We have 19 90-barrel fermenters. Then we have a couple 60-barrels if we're doing
slightly smaller batches. So, we have a 30-barrel brewhouse. It's also a
four-vessel brewhouse, which allows us to be super efficient. We have a mash
mixer, a lauter tun, a kettle, and a whirlpool. We've actually kind of ... We
had our welder come in and actually install separate lines, so that ... just to
make us more efficient. We used to only be able to brew three times in one day.
It's me and one other brewer; that's it.
EL: Yeah.
SG: We would brew three times in one day, and that would fill up 190. We've
upped production even more, and so now we can brew four times in one day, and so
we're actually able to start ... Before we would ... you start off in your mash
00:23:00mixer, go to your lauter, you run off into your kettle. Well, that kind of takes
up that ... that's the longest bulk of time, going from the lauter to the
kettle. Well, now, once the kettle is full we can actually start again and start
running off into our mash mixer now, so we can just be continuously filling.
It's acting as a wort receiver.
EL: Yeah.
SG: So, we can just be continually running off beer. So, we're just ... there's
no down time anymore. So, now that we're super efficient it's the exact same
amount of time as it was brewing three batches as it is now brewing four
batches. And it's still just me and one other dude.
EL: How many barrels do y'all do usually like per year?
SG: Last year I think we were up to 15-thousand barrels. That's just going to
get more this year. I think now that we're doing these four batches ... We went
through an expansion back in March. We added eight fermenters then, so we're
00:24:00expected to do a lot more. It'll probably be close to 20-thousand.
EL: And you guys do a lot of distribution here in the taproom, but you bottle.
SG: Yes.
EL: You mentioned the bottle line too.
SG: So, we are actually available in North Carolina, South Carolina, Tennessee,
Georgia, and Ohio. There's apparently a very large vacation ... It's popular to
go from Cincinnati to Asheville. It's apparently just a really hot ...
Asheville's a hot spot for Ohio people. So, it was literally our bartenders
going, "We're getting all these fucking people from Cincinnati," and they're
like, "All right. I guess we'll sell in Ohio." And to be fair actually, the
distributor that we're working with in Ohio, they really wanted us, and they
really came after us. So, we were like, "All right, cool, we'll open Ohio." I
think a couple months ago, we opened Kentucky as well. So, we're getting there.
SG: We distribute to all of those places, but we only bottle out of this
00:25:00facility. We bottle and can here. We just got our canning line back in March, so
that's been fun to play with. Our bottling line has been kind of Frankensteined
together with old parts ... or like old machinery. Our filler is from the 70s. I
want to say it's from 1975, but we've got really smart dudes that can make that
thing work. That was actually the ... The part about winning the gold medal for
the lager ... or for the Oktoberfest, it was really that, we didn't make sure
that one certain batch was really good and that the one bottling run was really
good. We literally just pulled a bottle off the bottle line and sent it off to
be GABF to be judged, and it won. It was really just that all of our processes
were already that good. That's what made everyone feel really great about that,
that everyone had a hand in it and everyone was doing their job correctly, and
00:26:00that's why that beer won.
SG: So, even though there can be some pretty old equipment out there we know how
to make it work. Our centrifuge is so old it literally says, "Made in West
Germany on it." I think it's Westphalia. That things pretty old too. My
husband's the cellarman here, and the man knows how to make that kitty purr, so
it works out.
EL: So, this may not even have an answer, but what would you say ... what's a
typical brewing cycle look like around here? You probably don't have a typical day.
SG: I do on the brewing side. I don't know how typical our situation is. We are
very separated in our departments. I work exclusively hot side. I will brew the
00:27:00beer, and as soon as I'm done knocking out it's the cellar's problem. We all
talk to each other to make sure that what we're doing, how it affects everyone
down the line. But, in a lot of other breweries you might switch off. Maybe
you'll brew for two weeks and then you'll go work in a cellar for a couple of
weeks or you'll switch it around. We're all a little bit specialized here. For
most of us, at least here at Hi-Wire, we actually do kind of ... I typically
come in at 2:30. I do the last brew and a half, and then I have to do a clean.
That's typically what I'll do. Me and my other brewer, we'll switch from time to
time. But, really for us, we're exclusively brewing, and if you're in the cellar
you are cleaning tanks and ... and transferring beer and dry hopping beer. If
you're in packaging you're ... It can get a little ... You're in your little
00:28:00box, but everyone who's doing what they're doing is also really good at what
they're doing, so there's a trade off there.
EL: Yeah.
SG: Like I really know how to fix my brewhouse very quickly. If something's
going awry I can fix it really quickly because I do it every single day, so it
makes this place super efficient. Yeah. I think that's ...
EL: Yeah, that makes sense. What would you say is your favorite part of brewing?
SG: Oh, that's so hard.
EL: I know. It's a very difficult question.
SG: I'm going to take it even like on the really, really tiny level of like
there's nothing quite like if you've got a really good bag of hops and you slice
it, a fresh open bag, and it just comes flying out at you. We had this bag of
Simcoe recently; it was just like pure grapefruit. And every time ... I was like
excited every time I opened it. I was just like, "Oh my god, it smells so good."
I know that's like on the tiniest level, but I think you kind of really have to
00:29:00appreciate it. I mean because this job can get really hard. I like that it's
hard. I couldn't sit at a computer all day. I would lose my damn mind. The very
first job I had out of college was I worked at the Philadelphia Zoo working with
giraffes and horses. I was working like ... I would walk 16 miles a day. I would
have to shovel crap. And I was the happiest I ever was. If I go home and I'm not
gross and exhausted then I feel like I didn't do anything, so I'm in the correct industry.
EL: Yeah. Yeah.
SG: So, really, it's just kind of like I like being physical, and this is a very
physical job. If you're not a physical person, this is not the job for you.
EL: Yeah. Yeah. So, is there a piece that you would say is your ... what's the
bane of your brewing existence?
SG: Oh, god. I mean it just ... when something ... there's nothing like a slow
00:30:00or stuck mash. When that happens I just want to kill everything. I get so mad.
I'll be like ... because I'm usually pretty good at freeing it up, and when I
can't I get so frustrated. My husband will be walking by. He's like, "You want
to get lunch?" I'm like, "I can't get lunch right now!" He's like, "All right,
it's fine. It's going to be okay." But, then it feels good when I can free it up
and I'm like, "Yeah, gotcha." But, oh god, when I have a stuck mash I'm not a
pleasant person to talk to.
EL: Oh, goodness. So, Hi-Wire was, as you mentioned, kind of like an established
brand when you came in.
SG: Yeah. Yeah.
EL: How do you kind of merge that with your own personal interest in brewing philosophy?
SG: Well, I'm glad the two align pretty well. Like I said, I like trends as they
00:31:00are every once in a while, and I like that Hi-Wire will pay attention to that,
but in the end it's all really about making really good clean beer. I get really
disheartened sometimes when I'll go to other breweries and it just seems like it
just got pumped out as fast as it could, and it ... if you just took a little
bit more time with it, a little bit more care into it, if you could find someone
in your brewery that can taste diacetyl, something. These are all very small
mistakes that I think a lot of small craft breweries, they just either don't
have the education or the capabilities to make it better, or the patience to
make it better. That can be really frustrating.
SG: So, luckily I think the reason that Hi-Wire has done so well is because they
do care about those little things. They do care about ... I'll even say, one of
00:32:00our more recent batches of lager, something was a little bit off. I kind of
appreciate the fact that we all kind of take that hit. We all kind of feel it.
Like, "Everyone drink this beer. Let's talk about what happened. Let's figure
out what went wrong," and not just sweep it under the rug. Does that make sense?
SG: It was I think that this was my first job coming out of brewing industry,
maybe it did help shape where I wanted to go, but just my personal beliefs in
how beer should be run, how it should be marketed. Hi-Wire was already going
that direction anyway. So, I think I just really lucked out.
EL: Yeah. Yeah. Well, we mentioned ... We were talking about Pink Boots a little
while ago. Can you talk a little bit about Pink Boots? I know statewide we're
starting to see kind of chapters popping up in different cities. Can you talk a
00:33:00little bit about how kind of the localized Pink Boots is working around here?
SG: Yeah. We actually just had our first meeting last week.
EL: Yay.
SG: We had our first meeting last week. I am the secretary for the local
chapter. Our two chapters are Leah Rainis and Katie Smith. It was good. Our
first initial meeting was really just trying to figure out who's here and what
they want to get out of it. We do have a lot of really cool resources nearby. We
have Riverbend Malting Company. There's a woman who works there. So, we can get
her perspective. One of the women in Pink Boots works at White Labs, the yeast
provider here in town. So, she's going to do educational classes on that.
SG: The local Asheville chapter is still getting started. Like I said, it was
really just our first meeting, but it is really exciting. Several students, both
from the AB Tech program and the Blue Ridge program, showed up, which was
00:34:00awesome. It was really cool to talk to one of the girls. She was a little bit
like me. I never homebrewed. I hate homebrewing. I've done it twice in my life
and I fuckin' hate it because it makes my whole house dirty and I just hate it.
I'd rather do it here and it's clean and it's not in my way and it's fine. I
hate homebrewing. But, this one girl, she's starting in the fall, and she's
coming from like a pharmaceutical background. She was like, "I literally just
did this. I'm going to see how it works out." So, it was cool to talk to her and
actually kind of calm her down a little bit. I was like, "Well, maybe you should
focus on lab work because breweries need that nowadays." That's becoming a
really necessary thing for craft breweries.
SG: It was really cool to get all these different perspectives, and it was cool
to give advice too. I am getting to that point in my career where I mean, yeah,
I do know what the hell I'm doing. I know what should be happening around here.
00:35:00So, to be able to actually help others, that's been really fun, and then to meet
people who know more than I do and can explain things to me, that's been really
exciting. We've got cool ideas like we want to go out to Fonta Flora, that area,
and go foraging for beer ingredients, maybe taking a self-defense class. I think
that would be real important. I'm almost always here super late by myself. I
mean I'm a tough girl from Philly. I'm all right.
SG: Pink Boots is also open to bartenders wanting to ... having a beertender is
like a career now. That can be a thing, helping them get Cicerone. Really just
helping women in their careers around here. I'm really excited to see what we
can do. I'm super pumped about it.
EL: Yeah. Well, you kind of hinted at this in that answer, but can you talk
about some of the challenges that come with being a woman in this industry?
SG: Yeah. I do consider myself a little lucky because I haven't had to deal with
00:36:00the overt sexism. I've never had to deal with, "Women brewer," or even just ...
I've never had to deal with that, but I mean every single ... We have tours
daily here at Hi-Wire. Every single tour that comes through, it's kind of like,
"Oh, it's a girl brewing." It's not a malicious thing, but it's just clearly
we're still a novelty, and when you're still in that realm you can still kind of
feel like you're not being taken completely seriously. So, like I said, it's not
a malicious, overt, sexism thing that I've ever dealt with. That doesn't mean
that doesn't exist. It still does, and it sucks. A friend of mine at a prominent
brewery in Oregon, she really couldn't move up, and blatantly because the owner
told her because she was a woman. That still happens today, and that's really
frustrating. I've lucked out, and that's never been an issue for me, but it
00:37:00really is those little ... It's clearly just not common knowledge that girls can
do this.
SG: I personally take a little bit of joy in that. I like to kind of give people
a hard time when they do come through. Although it can get really annoying. I'll
be up on the brew deck in my full gear, and they'll be like, "Oh, is that the
sales girl?" And I'll be like, "Are you fucking kidding me?" Like really? So,
those ones can get a little frustrating. But, just the off-hand ones of like,
"Oh, it's a girl brewing," and then they're like, "That's cool," and then from
now on it's a normal thing for them. So, we need to be more visible and to be a
little bit more out there.
SG: One thing I never ... I don't know. I've always been kind of very empowered
in whatever I want to do. My dad can't build shit, but my mom can do anything. I
came home one day and she had like a deck built. My dad can't fix anything. He's
00:38:00useless. But, my mom can fix everything in the house. So, I think I just had
this person, like I was like, "Of course women can do this." She built her own
house when she was like 25. That was what I grew up with, so that's what I was
used to, so I never really understood. I was ... I just never put that own
stereotype on myself. I didn't think that was even a thing. So, it was a little
weird when people were like, "Oh, you're doing that? That's super strange."
SG: One of our owners here at Hi-Wire, he has a five-year-old daughter. She's
five. And this is a very ridiculous environment, so she doesn't come around very
often, but she knows Hi-Wire, and she knows what we do and everything. She
understands that. I didn't know this, but every Sunday he would bring her in
while the taproom was still closed, and she could run around and we had fish
back here and stuff, so she'd want to go do that. That was like their
father-daughter outing. I was here cleaning one day, just up on the brewhouse,
and she talked to me a little bit and she wanted to take pictures of me up
00:39:00there, and I was like, "Okay."
SG: He came in to me the next week and he was like, "You're her hero." He was
like, "She didn't ... " She was like, "Is she brewing?" And he was like, "Yeah."
So, still whenever she wants to flip through the pictures she wants to see
pictures of me up on the brew deck. He told me that story, and I was just like,
"Damn, that's awesome." Just being visible for girls to just see that you can do
whatever the hell that you want. She had no concept of that before, but now that
she saw me up there brewing, she probably won't go into the brewing industry,
but it might think that she can do something else that maybe a lot of boys can do.
SG: So, I don't know. That was my kind of transition from maybe not trying to
make a deal that I with as a woman in the brewing industry to being like, "Oh,
that's why it's important." That was kind of my light bulb moment, and I was
00:40:00like, "That was awesome." She's the cutest.
EL: To tie it in with Pink Boots, I mean that's where something like Biere de
Femme can really fit in too.
SG: Yeah. That's been really huge too. Actually, Biere de Femme was the first
like all women's beer festival in the country, which was really cool. So, now
Pink Boots nationally is meeting with the Biere de Femme girls to try to make
that ... to see how they did the layout and everything, and try to have that
replicated in other areas, which is freaking awesome. And really just, you have
an entire brew festival, and it's shocking how many women there are. I also like
the Biere de Femme Festival because it encourages all the women from the brewery
to be a part of making that beer for Biere de Femme.
SG: When we do it here at Hi-Wire, of course I make the recipe and i do the bulk
of some of the brewing stuff, but our event coordinator will come. One of our
owners is a woman. Our accountant. All these women that work within the brewery.
00:41:00Maybe they don't have to be a brewer to really come together. We made a Belgian
strong this year, so as we were brewing we popped open a couple Belgian strong
bottles for everyone to taste what that style is supposed to be like, what I was
trying to go for.
SG: It's cool to see ... That's the other aspect, Pink Boots, is that it's not
just about production; it's anyone with the beer industry. The more you know
about beer in general, it's going to help you in your career over here. So, I
like that aspect of Pink Boots a lot. I'm glad it's not just production girls.
EL: Yeah. I think it's a good introduction for folks to just see that there are
that many breweries with that many women.
SG: Absolutely. Absolutely.
EL: Yeah.
SG: And that most places now do have at least one woman in production. I was
even shocked when I went to Biere de Femme. That was the other reason I always
kind of always felt a little weird about even doing interviews and stuff like
00:42:00this, because I'm like, "Well, I'm not the only girl that's fuckin' doing this."
It's really nice that as a group we're all kind of getting a voice and getting
these places to showcase that we exist and that we're kicking ass doing it.
EL: Yeah. Yeah. If we had ... You mentioned this with the student that you
talked to at the Pink Boots meeting. But, if someone wandered in right now, a
woman wandered in right now and was like, "I want to get into the production
side of brewing," what advice would you give her?
SG: Go to school. Go to school. Mostly, the reason I really liked the AB Tech
program is because they ... you have to have that internship. You'll get all of
the scientific background that you really need. When I was at school, like I
said, we were still like the guinea pigs. All the equipment was still being
installed and all of this crap. It's not like you're going to brew on a
00:43:0030-barrel brewhouse at school. That's just not how it's going to work out. But,
you're going to get the science behind everything that's happening. A lot of
these guys that go from homebrewing to just starting a brewery, they might miss
some of that nuance stuff. You're going to get that. You're also, I think that
the more you understand the beer industry whole it's going to help you even in production.
SG: I went on a sales call with one of our sales reps, and just learning what he
does and how he needs to pitch the beer. Learning all of those little aspects of
the industry is just going to make you better at your job. So, because something
like the AB Tech program, it is so well-rounded, you're going to get all of
those, but really it comes down to that internship because a lot of people would
be like, "Wow, being a brewer is so cool." Yeah, it's cool, but you get your ass
kicked, and if you don't like getting your ass kicked this isn't for you. So,
it's really a rude wake up call for a bunch of people.
00:44:00
SG: I mean it sucks. Whenever we do get a female intern I feel like I'm always
kind of rooting for her a little bit more, and it's not because she's a woman;
it's because she's like, "This isn't fun." And I'm like, "If it's not fun for
you, it's not for you." I got guys saying the exact same thing. So, before you
go leaping into it to have this internship to really kick your ass, see if it's
something that you actually really do love. I think that's so important.
EL: Yeah.
SG: Yeah. That's the biggest thing I think.
EL: Yeah. That makes perfect sense. So, we're going to ask you the question that
is the hardest question it seems for every brewer to answer.
SG: Okay.
EL: What's your favorite beer from a North Carolina brewery other than your own?
SG: I have to pick one. I know the brewery. I'm just trying to think which one I want.
EL: You can go with the brewery.
SG: Okay.
EL: We'll let you off easy.
SG: Right now my favorite brewery in North Carolina is a place called Zillicoah.
00:45:00It's started by a guy named John Parks who used to be our specialty brewer here
at Hi-Wire. He did all of our sours and wild ales, and he branched off to start
his own place. The guy just understands beer. Everything he makes is so good. He
makers this patters because that is just like so fucking delicious. He made a
Vienna lager that was awesome. It's that attention to detail and not just
pushing a beer out to push a beer out. He gets really intense with his beer.
That's why some of the best beers I've ... my favorite Hi-Wire beers came from him.
EL: Yeah.
SG: He's always been someone I've kind of looked up to, just how into it he
gets. All of his beers are so good. Go to Zillicoah. There's also a taco truck
there that are the best tacos you'll ever have in your entire life, so it's just
a great experience. You can take your dog.
EL: Sounds pretty awesome. Sounds pretty awesome. You've mentioned the flagships
00:46:00and everything. What's your favorite beer to drink, not necessarily to brew, but
what's your favorite ...
SG: On a regular basis of our flagships, the lager. I always do think that is
kind of funny because like I said earlier if someone comes in off the street
that's only ever been drinking Bud Light they could drink this and not be
offended. Well, guess what? It's what all of the brewers here are drinking all
of the time. Everyone kind of goes through their progression of what beers they
like. I think I was into my weird beers kind of early on in my beer education. I
think we would always vacation really close to where Dogfish Head is, so growing
up, weird beers were there all the time. So, I kind of got that out of my ...
Don't get me wrong. I love sours. I love weird-ass beers. But, everyone kind of
comes back to, "I just want a lager," or "I just want a brown." Yeah, so lager,
all the time.
EL: Yeah. It's good to have a good solid one to go back to.
00:47:00
SG: Exactly. And then as much as I was geeking out over the Oktoberfest. Any
lager. Oktoberfest. Our Dopplebock is so good. Lagers. I like lagers.
EL: Yeah. Yeah. And one of the things that folks have been telling us is that
lagers seem to be the new trending beer too.
SG: I hope so.
EL: Yeah.
SG: Well, mostly because I want to drink other people's. I love mine. It's
great. But, it is cool to see what other people are doing with it.
EL: Yeah.
SG: Yeah. Just to see breweries get better at it, when they start realizing that
they need to take their time with it and everything, it's cool to see people
grow that way. A lager to me is a really good way to tell how well that brewery
is doing, because it takes so much time and care. You can't just cover up the
flavor with a shit ton of hops. I mean I guess you could, but whatever.
EL: Yeah. Yeah. One question that kind of popped up in my head, you were in
00:48:00Oregon before deciding to come back here ...
SG: Yeah.
EL: ... but you weren't doing production there, right?
SG: No, no. I was just in the tasting room there.
EL: But, can you kind of compare ... is there a way to compare the Oregon
environment to here? I mean those are two ... They seem to be very different
beer cultures.
SG: It is very different beer cultures, and I mean to be perfectly honest what
happens on the West ... When things get popular here, aside from the hazy IPA.
The hazy IPA is the New England style beer, and that's been an East Coast thing.
But, typically I have notice that if there is a beer trend it starts in
California, Oregon, Washington, and it will make its way east. One of the other
really ... The fresh hops out there really taste different. North Carolina,
we're not a great spot to grow hops, so if you want to make a fresh hop beer
it's not going to be the same as if you can do a fresh hop beer out there. There
00:49:00is definitely ... If it only takes 50 miles from the Willamette Valley to get
some, it's going to be a little bit fresher.
SG: So, I do think that the trends will start there and come out this way. I
think right now the champagne style of beer is really popular out there right
now, and it's starting to come this way. Actually, the Asheville pink we made,
that was our International Women's Day beer that we made this year was a
champagne style hop beer. I do think sometimes on the East Coast we're catching
up a little bit with the trends, which is ... I mean, whatever. It's fine. I do
think that the average beer drinker and consumer out there is maybe a little bit
more knowledgeable than the average one I've met out here. We're still kind of
trying to get people back on with ...
SG: We actually did a test with our lager one time. We wanted to see if we could
00:50:00shorten the amount of time that we could lager it just to see. You never know.
We actually did it at ... We tasted it at four weeks, six weeks, and eight
weeks. We brought in people who were not brewers, just average people to taste
it. They would say that the ones that were at four weeks and six weeks, those
had issues with it. That's what we as brewers perceive as, but to them it tasted
more craft because it was off. I think that's still an issue that we're getting
better at in North Carolina, but it still needs to ... it's still something
we're working on.
SG: Like I said earlier, my brewmaster said he's going to ruin beer for me. He
did. because I really do struggle to kind of go around sometimes and not
nitpick. I think now the average beer consumer is getting smarter here, or at
least what constitutes a good clean beer. Now that that's happening I think now
00:51:00we're starting to catch up.
EL: Yeah.
SG: I think that's only good.
EL: Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. What kind of things do you like to do when you're
not brewing?
SG: I have two dogs, my babies, and we are really big outdoorsy people, so we're
camping every weekend. We're hiking, backpacking. I never slow down. It's really
bad. On our honeymoon everyone was like, "Oh, are you going to go lay on a beach
somewhere?" I'm like, "No, we trekked throughout Zion and Grand
Staircase-Escalante. So, like I said, I always like to be tired. We're really
bad about just staying still. So, just doing stuff outdoors all the time. We're
about to ... My husband's really into rock-climbing. He's about to get me into
rock-climbing. I'm a little scared, but it's going to be great. I am a really
... I did study music in college for a long time. I thought I was going to be an
opera singer actually for a very, very long time, so I still just kind of
00:52:00practice that. I was in the Asheville Symphony Choir here for a while.
EL: Oh, great.
SG: Until I shift my shift, so I can't be at rehearsals all the time. But,
singing classical music, that's my deal.
EL: That's very cool.
SG: Yep.
EL: Yeah. That's pretty much the end of the questions I came with.
SG: Cool.
EL: Is there anything we didn't talk about that you want to talk about in order
to kind of get the big picture of you and your place in the industry?
SG: I don't think so.
EL: Okay.
SG: I think I got everything.
EL: That's okay. Well, thank you.
SG: Yeah, absolutely.
EL: Thank you so much. We really appreciate it.
