Oral history interview with Jenny Williams and Celeste Ybanez, 2018

Erin Lawrimore: To start with, I'm going to have both of you actually say and spell your name and give us the title that you have here. Whoever wants to go first.

Jenny Williams: I'm Jenny Williams. J-E-N-N-Y W-I-L-L-I-A-M-S, and I am co-owner with my husband, of Frog Level Brewing Company.

Celeste Ybanez: And I'm Celeste Ybanez. C-E-L-E-S-T-E Y-B-A-N-E-Z, and I am the chief operating officer.

Erin Lawrimore: All righty.

Jenny Williams: And daughter.

Celeste Ybanez: And daughter.

Erin Lawrimore: And daughter. That's the important part.

Celeste Ybanez: As if you couldn't tell, the beauty runs in the family.

Erin Lawrimore: Today is Monday, July 2. We're at Frog Level Brewing in Waynesville, North Carolina. This is an interview for the Well Crafted NC 00:01:00Project. To start off, whoever wants to go first, can you just tell us a little bit about your background. Or all y'all from around here or how did you get here to Waynesville?

Jenny Williams: My husband and I are both originally from Haywood County. Then we both grew up, went separate directions. He joined the Marine Corps, I joined the Navy and after our careers in the military, we came back here and eventually met up. Married and-

Celeste Ybanez: Raised a beautiful daughter. I was born and raised here obviously, so.

Erin Lawrimore: How did you guys first get involved in the beer and brewing industry? I mean, you mentioned the military background. I guess the first question would be, when did you guys leave the military, but what was the path from military to here?

Jenny Williams: Well, my husband retired from the Marine Corps in 2003, after he 00:02:00was deployed to Iraq. I was a Navy nurse. When I finished my original stint on active duty, I just remained in the Reserves and had a civilian career, but stayed in the Navy Reserves until I retired from Navy Reserves. He had always wanted to home brew, so he kept saying, "I'm going to make some beer sometime." He and his buddies would talk about, "We're going to brew, we're going to brew," and they never did. We made a trip to New Mexico and went to a small brewery there in Albuquerque and he said, "I'm doing it." We came home, he bought the stuff to make his first home brew, which was a mess all over our house. He said, "I think I'm going to have a brewery." So I got up one Saturday morning and I printed off all the paperwork, and I said, "Okay, here's the paperwork, no more 00:03:00excuses. Let's do it." That's how it got started.

Erin Lawrimore: What year was that?

Jenny Williams: That was ...

Celeste Ybanez: 2010.

Jenny Williams: Okay, thank you.

Celeste Ybanez: You're welcome. I was still in high school, that's how I remember.

Jenny Williams: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: Were there other breweries in this area when you guys opened?

Celeste Ybanez: We were the first brewery in Haywood County. The only other brewery in our area was in Sylva. Other than the actual district, which has always been exploding with beer. But Heinzelmannchen was the only brewery at that time in Sylva. Then we officially opened in 2011 and were the first brewery here in Haywood County.

Jenny Williams: And followed quickly by two others.

Celeste Ybanez: BearWaters and Tipping Point, yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: How about you, Celeste? How did you end up joining into the family business?

Celeste Ybanez: Like any normal child, I had chores. My chores were just a little bit different. My chores were scrubbing labels off of beer bottles so 00:04:00that we could bottle beer. That was my contribution from the beginning. Then we did tastings up at the Gateway Club for around 10 months. I was a server there, so I was able to contribute by my bubbly personality and my sturdy arm with a tray. Then once we finally opened this place, I was a bartender and started college. I graduated from Western Carolina in 2014. This place was a very big contributing factor in my major. I graduated with a degree in entrepreneurship and innovation management. I solely contribute that to Clark and Jenny, and their entrepreneurial path here. So here I am.

Jenny Williams: But she finished in three years with honors, highest honors. She's smart.

Erin Lawrimore: You got to get the little humble brag in.

Celeste Ybanez: Well, you know. Get my smarts from my mom.

Jenny Williams: Brainiac.

Erin Lawrimore: It's only recently though, that you've taken over as the-

Celeste Ybanez: Correct, yeah. I moved to Savannah, Georgia and lived the corporate America life for a little bit. I was in the training program for Enterprise Holdings, and accelerated through that program in six months. Which is half the time it normally takes. I was assistant manager of a store there and I learned a lot about management and I learned a lot about business, more so. Not that my degree didn't cover a lot of things, but lots of hands on activities, I would say, with Enterprise. Last summer, my parents called me and said, "Hey, would you move back and just help us? Take over. Just come back and help."

Celeste Ybanez: I have a family, so I had to talk to my, at that time, fiance. 00:06:00We had to think about taking our kids back out of school and moving back up here. So we moved here in December. My first official day was December 23. It was a great time to move. But in that short time, I have learned even more about myself, and about this industry, the seven months that we've been here. It's been a really great time for me and a really great time for my family as well.

Jenny Williams: And for the brewery.

Celeste Ybanez: And for the brewery, yes.

Jenny Williams: The new build out for the canteen, you know, she's been instrumental in working on that. Her husband has been helping with the construction, so it really truly is a family effort.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. And let's talk a little bit more about that, about expansion from the start to now. Not even just the recent stuff. I don't know which one of you would want to talk about that, but can you talk about how you've grown over the seven years?

Jenny Williams: We started out with just a very small system-

Celeste Ybanez: Ten gallons, very small.

Jenny Williams: Yes, and three small fermenters. And then she can talk about probably the expansion and the number of gallons we can brew today. But we have three different change overs in systems, over the years.

Celeste Ybanez: We started with a 10 gallon system, and now we're at a seven barrel system. In seven years we've grown quite a lot. As far as capacity, we can brew around 5,000 gallons a month. And out of that 5,000 gallons, I probably sell 5,000 gallons. So it's really great at ... We have two 15 barrel fermenters and then six, seven barrel fermenters. At all times those are usually full, we turn those over twice a month. Yeah, it's pretty great.

Erin Lawrimore: Let's talk about the beer for a second.

Celeste Ybanez: Yeah, let's do it!

Erin Lawrimore: Do you guys have a beer that you consider your flagship beer? Or do you just have a number that are your constants?

Jenny Williams: I'd like to speak to the history of the flagships first. Celeste mentioned the Gateway Club. For that 10 months that we were trying to get licensed, we decided to use it wisely. Because Clark was so obsessed with brewing that he was brewing two and three times a week, home brewing. I had carboys sitting all over my house. In my closet, in my garage, in my laundry room. When he blew up a carboy of a blackberry stout all over my laundry room at 2:00 a.m., I said, "Get it out! Out!"

Jenny Williams: We decided to take all of the beer that we'd been practicing with, take it up to a place where we belonged to a club, so we had public 00:09:00tastings. Clark would brew the beer, I would look up the education about that particular beer style. So we decided to do education, along with tasting. We did tasting cards so people could write down notes and could grade the beer for us. That's how we came up with our five flagships, which were the most popular ones, the favorites that everybody went back to each time.

Jenny Williams: From the five flagships, we still have two that really shine through all the time. But I think one of them has now taken the lead.

Celeste Ybanez: Salamander Slam IPA is our most popular seller. It's an English style IPA, so it's going to be more malty, whereas a west coast IPA is going to be heavy, heavy, hoppy. That beer probably outsells my other beers, I don't know, probably 30%. It's quite popular. But we also have another local favorite, 00:10:00our cream ale, Lily's Cream Boy Ale. We joke and call it the gateway drug. So if you're not totally into craft beer, you're trying to get into craft beer, that's the gateway drug to start you off, you know what I mean? That's probably my second top seller. Those were both original flagship, what we consider flagship beers.

Jenny Williams: It's a good local boy brew. Or for women who are just learning how to drink beer, although a lot of women like the darker beers much, much better than light ones. I do.

Celeste Ybanez: A lot of women that like to drink red wines, if they come in here they're like, "I'm not a beer drinker, I'm a wine drinker." They like heavy reds like a Malbec, I always like to get them to taste the stout or a porter, because it has a similar mouth feel to a heavy red wine, and that's usually what they'll gravitate toward. Even though the color can be intimidating if you're not a beer drinker. It still is a nice compliment to heavy red.

Jenny Williams: Yeah, at the Gateway Club, the women who came in with their 00:11:00husbands who were tasting the beer, and the women said, "I'm not into beer. No, I'm a wine drinker," I would take a stout or a porter, pour it into a wine glass and say, "Now try it." And they would try it and by and large they would say, "You know, that's not bad."

Celeste Ybanez: Right. Scarier. It looks scarier than it is.

Jenny Williams: Yes.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. As the business has grown, as the business has continued to develop, are there certain resources that you guys have leaned on, in addition to I guess, your educational background. Local resources or even statewide resources that have really helped you in this growth?

Celeste Ybanez: Absolutely. One of the biggest resources that we use is the NC Brewer's Alliance. I'm sure you're well versed after 10 interviews. But that's a great resource for all breweries, especially North Carolina. On their Facebook page, there's a group that you can be a part of, and they'll post certain 00:12:00things. Like once a week, brewery trends, or hey, this brewery's doing this. It's a really great place to come and grab research. But also you have all the other breweries that are in the alliance at your disposal as well. It's about camaraderie, really.

Celeste Ybanez: You like to say that we are in competition with other breweries, and that's kind of true, but most of the time, brewers just want to help out each other. It's a great resource to be able to reach out and say, "Hey, you guys just released it last week. I have questions. I want to try to do that style." That's a really great resource.

Celeste Ybanez: But also the Small Business Center here in Haywood County, as well as in Jackson County. Both have been really big helps in us trying to get to the next step along the way.

Jenny Williams: I will put that out there. Thanks to the North Carolina University systems. The colleges have the Small Business Centers, a great resource.

Celeste Ybanez: Absolutely.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. To back up to something that you said a minute ago. You were talking about the first few months and getting all the permits and everything in place, but you also mentioned you guys were the first brewery here. Were there issues, permitting issues that came with being the first?

Celeste Ybanez: Yes. We recently talked about that, how sometimes with the permits and zoning, the people that would come to inspect would be like, "I actually don't know. I'm going to have to go read up on that, and I'll get back to you." So here we are just twiddling thumbs, waiting to hear back. Can we serve beer today, is it going to be next week, what's going to happen? That was probably the biggest hurdle to jump, was that no one in our area really knew because we were the first, you know?

Jenny Williams: And being in the Bible belt, you have to be a certain distance 00:14:00away from a church or a school. There's a church on every corner, literally, in Haywood County. We weren't sure if the mission next door was going to be considered part of a church. That took some time to sort out as well. But we were very blessed when we found this location. It just happened to become empty, and that's one of the biggest selling points here, is that we're on the creek and have just a great outdoor venue.

Erin Lawrimore: Can you talk a little bit more about this location, just where you are in relation to town and everything?

Celeste Ybanez: Yeah. Frog Level is the historic district of Waynesville. We're approximately two blocks from the main street, and y'all basically drove by one day and saw that this space was for rent, right?

Jenny Williams: Mm-hmm (affirmative)-.

Celeste Ybanez: And came to look at it and fell in love. That's why we are Frog Level Brewing Company, because this space was open and we're in Frog Level.

Jenny Williams: Frog Level District, because of the river out back, when it 00:15:00would rain very hard, it would flood. And the frogs were ... So this was-

Celeste Ybanez: The land became level with the frogs.

Jenny Williams: Also the fact that we lived less than a mile, so we could just zip back and forth from the brewery. The fact we had both been in the military and had plenty of camouflage attire available, and we thought frogs are camouflaged and so are we, and we won't have to spend a lot of money on uniforms. We'll just wear camouflage. All that came together, plus the fact that our motto is "Be a Level Head," bringing that in to Frog Level and being responsible with your adult beverages, all ties in together.

Erin Lawrimore: Other than the wardrobe choices, I guess, do you feel like there 00:16:00are certain benefits from that military background that you and your husband both have, that went into opening and operating this business?

Jenny Williams: Well, definitely the discipline comes into play and just being able to be logistically organized, for number one, is a spill over I think, from our military careers. But then also, people are so supportive of veterans these days, so we're very proud that that's a part of our business and it's on all of our cans and bottles, on the labels. Is that we're veteran owned and operated. It's a great network out there of people who are very supportive of military members and veterans. So we're grateful. We have people who send mail, who 00:17:00email, who get on Facebook, who Instagram, who are in the military or are veterans, from all over the country, who contact us because of that experience. We send them swag and they love the fact that some of our swag is very military oriented as well.

Celeste Ybanez: Also, from an outsider perspective, you guys are so used to serving, that y'all still give back to the community in a different ... it's a different matter of service, but they're both very big advocates for a local no kill shelter. So we hold a lot of functions for them, we do functions for Haywood Waterways. So they're still continuing to serve their local community, even though they're retired from the military. That's a beautiful thing to watch, because I don't think it's something that you or Clark ever really think about. But, your contribution is still there and present in our community.

Jenny Williams: I was a hospice nurse for many years, also. I love the people of this area, people in Haywood County, and everybody is just a good heart and a good feel here in the county.

Erin Lawrimore: One of the things that you just talked about is that some of your cans and materials carry a military theme with them. Can you talk a little bit about how long have y'all been canning. You mentioned cleaning bottles, so you may have been doing this all along.

Celeste Ybanez: We first started distribution in 2012. At that time we only distributed growlers and what we call croakers, which are a mini-growler. Thirty-two ounce and 64 ounce. We would fill directly from the taps, cases, and cases, and cases. We had a little old distributor that's called Millennium Beverage. They're not so little any more, but they would come and pick up 00:19:00around, I don't know. Between eight and 15 cases of growlers or croakers a week. Then later that year, maybe early 2013, we started canning and we used Land of Sky mobile canning. They would come in and they would set up and they would can straight from the fermenter.

Celeste Ybanez: But then it got to the point where they were so busy, that we had to be put on a waiting list. So sometimes we would have beer sitting too long, we would be able to can it. We'd have to keg it and just get it out in the tasting room. So we decided last year, last summer actually, we bought our own canner. So now we do all of our canning in house and we can whenever we want to. We can whatever we want to. That's been really great. We have six cans that we keep permanently and then we rotate seasonal beers. We usually have between four and six seasonals on at a time. Once Matt [Norman], our brewer, kegs a seasonal 00:20:00he'll can just a few cases of those seasonals and we'll be able to push those as a mixed pack with some of our other beers as well.

Celeste Ybanez: That's been really exciting for me to get to witness and be a part of, because it was a really big step for us to take. But it's been really rewarding thus far. That's been really great.

Jenny Williams: I remember when we were still brewing on the little SABCO system. Because of Millennium distributing across North Carolina, we would go down to Wilmington and see one of our croakers in a place in Wilmington, or in Greensboro. And I would get so excited. "Look! Our beer is here!" I took pictures, you know. Even today, if I see our beer somewhere else, World of Beer or some place, I take a picture of it. Because I like to see it amongst all of the other representatives there.

Celeste Ybanez: Millennium still does distribute in most of North Carolina and all of South Carolina for us. We also use Budweiser Asheville. They head the Haywood County, Buncombe County markets for us. We're in pretty much all the Walmarts in this area, Food Lion, Ingles, some convenience stores, like gas stations and stuff like that. We've gone really far away from being in really small bottle shops to the common grocery store. I think our canning line has really helped out with that, because we're able to push out a lot more product and keep up with supply and demand.

Erin Lawrimore: But I'm sure you guys still do ... I mean this is a great space, so I'm sure you guys still are pretty busy in the tap room too.

Celeste Ybanez: Oh, absolutely, absolutely.

Erin Lawrimore: How do you find the balance between how much to can versus what to have here?

Celeste Ybanez: You know what? It's sort of like gambling, to be completely honest. There is a science to it, but most of the time I can look at our reports 00:22:00and see what's selling in the tasting room. And I'll say to myself, "I would rather sell that in the tasting room than give that to my distributor." Because I know I make a majority of my money off of my regulars and my locals, and I'm going to continue to supply what they demand, what they want. But sometimes it's a crap shoot, you know? Sometimes you don't get it right, and it's all about learning.

Celeste Ybanez: I think that that's probably one of the most beautiful things about the brewing industry. Is that every day you learn something new. Sometimes you learn about beer and sometimes you learn about selling beer.

Erin Lawrimore: And hopefully you find a balance.

Celeste Ybanez: And hopefully you find a balance, yes absolutely.

Erin Lawrimore: This may be a weird, difficult question. But can you talk about what's a typical week like around here? I know most brewing cycles aren't just a day, so a day is hard but ...

Celeste Ybanez: Typical day. We brew Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, usually. That's 00:23:00kind of a loaded question, it's kind of a loaded question. Typically we brew Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. Then as far as the brewing side's concerned, Thursday, Friday is a kegging day or cleaning keg day, or clean up in general day before the tap room opens. As far as length of brewing, sometimes if we're just filling a seven barrel fermenter, Matt our brewer, only has to brew once. But the beers that we can, he'll do a double batch. So he'll brew twice in one day to fill up the 15 barrel fermenter. Then we'll get around 30 kegs out of that and about 75 cases. So it depends on what the projected canning schedule's going to be like and what our projected sellers are going to be.

Celeste Ybanez: You can sort of look at the market trend. Thankfully we have technology now that helps us see those things. I can look at a report and say, 00:24:00"Well, over the last three months we've sold an abundance of this, this, and this. We should probably go ahead and re-brew that beer right now. Because I project we'll run out in three weeks," sort of thing. The brewing schedule depends on how our local market is trending. Our distribution market is pretty constant. Both of my distributors order around the same amount of the same beers, so that's easy to predict there. Is that what you're looking for?

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah, yeah.

Jenny Williams: Then in the tasting room, in the afternoons we have a lot of tourists here. We get a lot of tourism in the afternoon. A lot of retirees who come in in the afternoon just to sit out in shade by the creek before everything gets busy. A lot of destination tourists who come because of the beer scene in 00:25:00and around Asheville. We have brews cruises that come occasionally, but then spill over. It's sort of like the Napa Valley of the beer industry around here. It's a destination, people come to do just the beer tour. Then in the evening we have live music a couple of times a week. We have an outdoor stage, so Saturday night for instance, was just a perfect night to have Gary Nicholson band, some of the members of Balsam Range here playing outside. Everybody just having a great time out on the deck.

Jenny Williams: Of course in the wintertime, we have the bands inside here and it's packed, and you can't hardly weave through the crowd to get people their beer, you know. But soon then we'll have food. We usually will have a food truck 00:26:00that will come, but pretty soon we won't have to do that, will we?

Celeste Ybanez: That's right.

Jenny Williams: We'll have the canteen open and great pub food, better than great pub food..

Celeste Ybanez: Pub fare with a modern flair.

Jenny Williams: There you go.

Erin Lawrimore: Can you talk a little bit about the decision to go that route?

Celeste Ybanez: Sure. Food has always been the ugly stepchild, right? It's something that you have to love, but you don't necessarily want to. When we first opened, and actually still today, we are food friendly. You want to have pizza delivered, have pizza delivered. You want to go next door to the coffee shop and get a sandwich, get a sandwich. You want to go down the street to Burger King, whatever you want, just bring it in. It was something that we didn't necessarily have the resources to deal with, but as we had expanded, and as our beers have become more popular, we have some more resources that we're 00:27:00able to grab on to.

Celeste Ybanez: Part of our problem was space. We have a very large brewery, but we also have a lot of stuff, like fermenters and a brew house and tables and a bar and kegs. With the expansions that we've done, the first time we actually expanded from the 10 gallon system into the next step up, which I think was three, three barrels. We had to redesign the whole brewery. Our bar was over here, not over there. We had to rearrange everything. So part of the challenge was finding where would we put a kitchen if we were going to have one. We tossed around the idea of doing a food truck for a minute, but there's a lot of really awkward ordinances about food trucks.

Celeste Ybanez: But then the space next door to us became available and we were able to grab on to that, cut a giant whole in the wall, called it a day. Our 00:28:00projected opening date's this weekend, so July 4th weekend. Yeah, we're really excited. My husband actually is taking on that responsibility. But it was about timing and it was about space. I guess those are the two biggest challenges for us. It's definitely a necessity and I think it's going to take us to the next level. I think it's going to get us where we want to be in the next five or 10 years, as far as sales go.

Jenny Williams: We've always been very family oriented, and dogs. You know, we have plenty of dogs through here every day. Kids. We have the little games, corn hole and air hockey and things for the kids to play. I guess that was one of the biggest surprises for me, was that people were willing to bring their kids to a brewery. When we first opened, here they would come with their grocery bags. 00:29:00They bought a loaf of bread and some lunch meat stuff and chips. They'd spread it out and feed their kids and they get to hang out and have a beer. The kids could play in the creek, play games. They don't have to pay a babysitter and the family gets to experience something together, rather than just having parents night out and kids staying behind at home.

Jenny Williams: Now they won't have to bring their grocery bags, or order pizza from somewhere and have it delivered.

Erin Lawrimore: With a family owned business that's family friendly, I think you guys have a very interesting, unique, wonderful, setup with all of that. Can you talk a little bit about the benefits of having a brewery that operates as a family business?

Jenny Williams: I can say that, that was one of the challenges to begin with actually. My dad is a Southern Baptist minister.

Erin Lawrimore: My grandfather was too.

Jenny Williams: Well, see. And our oldest son is a Southern Baptist minister. I didn't want to be disrespectful to my parents, so that was kinda tough at first when Clark said, "I really want to do this, I really want to brew beer." We talked to my parents about it and my mom actually has been one of our biggest supporters. Once we got over that hurdle, then we knew that this was going to be a family affair, that our kids ... Our middle son is now, works with the sheriff's department, but he used to also work here when he was in college. It was just easy for us, because we didn't have to leave our kids to go to work. 00:31:00Our kids were here too.

Jenny Williams: It brought us all closer together, closer knit I think. Celeste and Bill got really close and it was good to see that between brother and sister running the bar together.

Celeste Ybanez: Fun times.

Erin Lawrimore: Probably most of the time, fun times.

Celeste Ybanez: You know, with every family, there's going to be that one day where you contemplate going to jail. Is it worth it, I don't know?

Jenny Williams: And now that he works in the jail, you don't have to ... But it made me feel less guilty that we needed to spend so many hours working on the business, because we had them with us.

Erin Lawrimore: I would think especially at the beginning, the hours have to be pretty ...

Celeste Ybanez: It still is very labor intensive. My mom and dad want to phase themselves out. They're ready for full retirement and they duly deserve it. I 00:32:00get to experience now the labor part, both manual and mental. I can lift kegs like no one's business though. I'm stronger than I look for sure. But as far as the family oriented environment, it really was a natural fit. Like she said, we are a family and we were always here. So welcoming other families to join our family was the next step.

Celeste Ybanez: I think that that's one of the niches that we have here, is that we're kinda like Cheers. You walk in and everybody knows your name. We love this area, we love the community, and it's really like getting to see an extended part of my family when I come to work, and get to see other families.

Jenny Williams: It's true. And now her son is working here too, helping his dad in the kitchen area.

Celeste Ybanez: Yeah, giant family affair. I love it, I love it. Some of the 00:33:00games and stuff came later. The market tells you what they want. But now we're pretty set up for a fun family night out. I think I'm honing in on our motto, which is be a level head. Our bartenders like to promote that as well. So we don't have a beer cap, per se. But they're very well trained in experiencing whether a person is exhibiting signs of severe intoxication. So that it's not awkward when a family with three kids walks in and there's some person stumbling around. That doesn't really happen here, and that's sort of a wonderful thing too. Is that you can come here without worrying that your kids are going to be exposed to that environment.

Erin Lawrimore: Off the top of your head, including family, how many folks do you guys have working here?

Celeste Ybanez: We have five employees, including myself. We're very small. I actually didn't include Clark, so six technically.

Jenny Williams: We've never taken a paycheck. It all goes back into the business.

Celeste Ybanez: As we get the kitchen open, that's going to be changing, of course. Because we'll have to have a bigger staff to support the extra extension there. But we've had five employees for going on three years now. It's time for that next big step, and to hire some more people on, which I'm excited about too.

Erin Lawrimore: To follow up on that, you hinted on this with the kitchen. Where do you want to see the business go in the next five, six, seven years?

Celeste Ybanez: I definitely want to focus on distribution. We have North Carolina and South Carolina honed in. I'd like to see us get into Georgia and east Tennessee in the next five years. I really just want to take over the east coast, if we're being completely honest. That would be my goal.

Jenny Williams: We're going to need a lot more than five employees.

Erin Lawrimore: Very true.

Celeste Ybanez: I said we were adding on.

Erin Lawrimore: The purpose of some of the interviews that I'm doing is talk to women in the industry. This is an industry that is stereotypically men, in the industry. Can you talk a little bit about being a woman in an industry that I think has women in it, people just don't necessarily notice or think about that. Can you talk a little bit about maybe challenges, or even benefits that come with being a woman or having a woman's perspective in this industry?

Celeste Ybanez: Benefit: organization. We're much more organized ... we are much more organized, I should say, than our male counterparts. I can't speak for all males, I'm just saying the men involved at Frog Level. We add an extra bonus there, that's the biggest benefit. The challenges, in general women have been 00:36:00more prone to be introduced into the work force. So it's not uncommon to see a woman at work. It is uncommon to see a woman at work here. I think that sometimes we don't get as much respect as maybe the men do. Because we couldn't possibly know what we're talking about when it comes to beer. That's for the men, you know? Stick to your wine. That's challenging sometimes.

Celeste Ybanez: My first couple weeks coming back here, even though I had been a bartender here for five years, coming back and taking over, it took a long time for me to gain respect, not only of some of my customers, but my staff members as well. That's natural, a new boss is coming in, things are going to be changing, yada, yada. But it's weird because people would come to me and ask a 00:37:00beer question, and then would look at a man and say, "Actually, never mind. I'm going to ask him." But I'm very well qualified for this position. Not only because of my degree, but because of my knowledge in beer. That's probably the biggest hurdle, just trying to communicate or express that just because I'm a woman it doesn't mean I'm not knowledgeable.

Jenny Williams: And being an older woman, too.

Celeste Ybanez: I wouldn't know about that.

Jenny Williams: Most women who are working in beer these days are younger. I remember when we first got started and people would look at me like, "What is she doing here?" I love chivalry, I love it when a man will open a door for me and so forth. But one delivery I made when we first opened and I came carrying 00:38:00two kegs in, and the guys are like, "No, no. Let me get those. Just leave them there, just let," and I'm like, "I got this." Don't assume that I'm physically weak just because I'm female, let me do my job, but thank you all the same.

Jenny Williams: Celeste and I did a festival together down in Charlotte the first year we were open, or the second year we were open.

Celeste Ybanez: Second year.

Jenny Williams: Here she was, a young female, and I'm an older female. They would come up to our booth and look around for where the men were. But yeah, I'm proud of the fact that we're both strong women.

Celeste Ybanez: I'm a strong independent woman, but sometimes I need a man.

Jenny Williams: Every once in a while.

Erin Lawrimore: If we had a woman wander through right now who said, "I want to go into this industry." What would you say to her, what advice would you give her?

Celeste Ybanez: One of my biggest pieces of advice would be to find a mentor. My mentor's name is Nicole, and she used to be in charge of distribution for Boojum. She's moved on to bigger, wonderful, beautiful things. But having a mentor, someone who is doing, or has done what you're striving to do. Someone that is confident in their position and that can give you solid advice, would be my number one piece of advice for that person.

Celeste Ybanez: Secondly, not only can you gain advice from a mentor, but I learned a long time ago, that if you vent up instead of down or to someone equal, you're more apt to find a better solution. So if your mentor is someone 00:40:00who is in a higher position in this industry, or even if it's someone that has more tenure than you do in this industry, having that person that you can say, "Listen, I just am so angry because this permit guy said this. Or this distributor said this." Their advice to you is going to be more solid than someone who's on the same level that you are. Those two things would be what I would say.

Jenny Williams: What I would say is, we've just been joking about the male, female thing, but don't have a chip on your shoulder. Allow a man to mentor you if that man seems knowledgeable and is willing to work with you. I would say travel around and visit as many breweries as you can. Make it a point to call ahead and see if the owner is going to be there, and you can talk to the owner 00:41:00or the manager. Ask them what works and what doesn't work, then glean all of that knowledge, the best and the worst, so that you're set up for success to start with.

Celeste Ybanez: Solid.

Erin Lawrimore: What would you say is your favorite part of working in the North Carolina beer industry?

Celeste Ybanez: I think for me, it goes back to camaraderie. We have a lot of awesome breweries in North Carolina. I don't like to brag, but we're the best, you know what I mean?. North Carolina in general. That's my favorite part, is getting to experience beers with other people. Like tomorrow, actually, we're doing a collaboration with a local tap room. That sort of thing makes it fun. If we ran out of can boxes, I can call Boojum and say, "Hey, guys. Help me out." 00:42:00And they do the same thing. I really enjoy the fact that all of the breweries in North Carolina are pretty much a giant family, and we all want the same things.

Celeste Ybanez: Plus, the product that we make, you get to test it. So that's my second favorite part.

Jenny Williams: I like that you get to meet people from all walks of life, that have come in. Whether it's for a celebration, it's an event. We do weddings here, receptions here. We once even had a baby shower here, where the woman waited ... wanted to have her baby shower after the baby was born so she could enjoy the beer as well as everyone else.

Celeste Ybanez: Stouts and porters increase lactation by 15%, by the way.

Jenny Williams: It used to be that English physicians would prescribe the dark beers for women because it was supposed to help them lactate better. There's 00:43:00been times, honestly, in the early part of the day when someone who's a little down on their luck comes in. My husband has actually had the opportunity to pray with people here, who were seeking. Who were in anguish and needed help. All the way from that to those life celebrations, seeing people in all walks of life and every situation of life is unique to me. Besides the fact that we get to experiment with really cool things to put into an alcoholic beverage.

Erin Lawrimore: You guys have been open for a while now. Can you talk a little bit about just in general, in North Carolina, how the beer scene ... how has it changed since you've been open? Because it's changed a lot.

Celeste Ybanez: There's definitely a lot more of it. As far as craft breweries, 00:44:00I don't know, five years ago, I think we had a 12% market share. Now we're up to 25%. Not just in North Carolina, that's a global matter there. But, nonetheless, still a pretty drastic increase in the craft beer scene. As far as North Carolina, we've exploded with a number of breweries and this area is the top 10 destination cities in the world for beer. I guess the biggest change we've seen is the increase of the amount of breweries and the amount of beer.

Celeste Ybanez: There's the Carolina Championship of Beer. It's a competition that's hosted once a year. Last year I think there were 60 something winners, but this year there were 90 something winners. So not only are there more beers, but we're making better beers, which is a beautiful thing to witness. Not just 00:45:00for Frog Level, for our neighboring communities and their breweries as well.

Jenny Williams: We got 17 medals this year in one competition.

Celeste Ybanez: Yeah, pretty good.

Erin Lawrimore: That's not bad.

Jenny Williams: Not bad.

Celeste Ybanez: We're pretty proud.

Erin Lawrimore: You talked about better beer in North Carolina. I'm going to be honest, this is the hardest question for most people. What's your favorite beer from a brewery other than your own?

Jenny Williams: I know that right away.

Celeste Ybanez: Me too. You go first.

Jenny Williams: The Watermelon Wheat from Huske Hardware.

Celeste Ybanez: I would drink that right now.

Jenny Williams: It's really, really good.

Celeste Ybanez: I really enjoy Catawba. I love pretty much anything that Catawba puts out, but one of my favorite beers is their White Zombie, which is a lower alcohol. I think it's 5%, but it's just delicious. It's a perfect drinking beer for any occasion. Whether you're hot or you're cold, I don't know. I'm all about 00:46:00the White Zombie.

Erin Lawrimore: What about your favorites here? Can you pick a favorite?

Jenny Williams: Catcher in the Rye is my favorite, because it's my recipe.

Erin Lawrimore: Can you talk a little bit about that one and how you developed the recipe?

Celeste Ybanez: Humble and modest aren't we?

Erin Lawrimore: I was going to tell you, open up that, you got to talk about how that recipe came to be.

Jenny Williams: I love the hoppy beers. So when we were still home brewing, there was a beer, Red's Rye IPA, that I loved to have. I said, "I want to see if I can brew this. I wonder what makes it the way it is." I said that year for my birthday, that's what I was going to do. I was going to take the day off from my work at hospice and try to brew a rye pale ale. So I did. I went and got the ingredients and that's how I spent my birthday. I like the fact that it has that 00:47:00little wild flavor to it from the rye. And has just the right amount of hops for me.

Celeste Ybanez: It is 30% rye. So that's a pretty hefty amount of rye for any beer. So you do have that nice, earthy, almost bitterness from the rye. The hops really balance that out with the citrus. It's a very well balanced beer.

Jenny Williams: Still has a malty backbone, though.

Celeste Ybanez: Still very malty, yeah. Almost like a wheat backbone.

Jenny Williams: Only with that little wild edge and a pretty color.

Celeste Ybanez: It is beautiful, it's a beautiful amber. My favorite beer right now, we have a blood orange gose that we recently just licensed. It's very new to us. Southern Sally is her name. So the southern salamander is the color of a blood orange with a very bright orange, almost reddish stripe down it's back. 00:48:00That's how she got her name. It does have a wheat backbone, but our brewer, Matt, has done a fabulous job with infusing blood oranges into this beer. It is in the sour family, it's a little salty, very tart. But if you've ever had salt and citrus together, you know it's a very well married couple. That's my favorite drinking beer, it's perfect for summer because it's very refreshing. It's the newest member to our licensed family, so I'm really happy to have it on board.

Erin Lawrimore: I don't know how much free time you get to have, but in your time when you're not here, what do you enjoy doing? How do you enjoy spending your time?

Celeste Ybanez: I really like to make fun of my teenagers.

Erin Lawrimore: I think that's anyone with teenagers. Making fun of/embarrassing them.

Celeste Ybanez: That's the best part. But just goofing off with them. I really do love my family and I love when we get to spend time together and we don't 00:49:00have to worry about work. Because my husband and I both work here, it's not only the common denominator, but it over dominates-

Jenny Williams: Consuming.

Celeste Ybanez: Our conversations. If we can just not talk about work and just goof off, it's the best time. That's my favorite thing. We all play instruments, so it's really nice to just sit in the living room and everybody picks something up. We just jam together and have a good time. That's probably my favorite way to spend my time, now as a mom.

Jenny Williams: I quilt.

Celeste Ybanez: She is old. I'm sorry.

Erin Lawrimore: No quilts for you.

Celeste Ybanez: I quilt.

Erin Lawrimore: You don't get any more quilts.

Jenny Williams: Passed down from generations. My grandmother had a quilting frame in her living room that she would drop down, you know, and just quilt at night. My mother quilts. My parents are getting older, so I go and help them one 00:50:00day a week. My dad has a large orchard of heirloom apples, and peaches, and pears, and plums, and apricots, and hazelnuts. Just about everything you can think of, every berry. That requires a lot of work pruning and keeping the trees and getting everything ready for the farmer's market. I go and help my parents one day a week, and I work some for my church. Spend time with my good friends and family.

Celeste Ybanez: This is the most adorable thing. I have to say it. She hosts a sit and sip every week. It is the most precious thing to me, I don't know why. But they have hors d'oeuvres and they just sip on wine and all the girlfriends meet up. They just chat and sip and sit. I cannot wait to retire so I can also do that. I want to host sit and sip at my house. Life goals.

Erin Lawrimore: You are at a bar though. So you could host it here.

Celeste Ybanez: Sit and sip at Frog Level Brewing Company, ooh hoo! You're hired.

Erin Lawrimore: I would come. Those are pretty much the questions that I came prepared with. Is there piece of the story of the brewery that we didn't get to touch on today that y'all want to make sure to talk about? Or did we manage to cover all the bases?

Jenny Williams: I think I just want to give accolades to my husband, Clark. For his perseverance and his drive to see his dream come to fruition. I really have been on the fringes of that. Because I did need to work full time so that he could not take a paycheck from here. He started out being our brewer and then we 00:52:00hired someone who could help him. Then we hired someone who actually went to brewing science school, so I think the quality has really come a long way. Not that he was doing anything wrong, but it's just a learning process.

Jenny Williams: He comes to work almost every day, and wants to see this business succeed for our next generation. I would like to say that I really appreciate my husband. He's a good man.

Celeste Ybanez: Hashtag best dad ever.

Jenny Williams: And a smart business man.

Celeste Ybanez: Yes.

Erin Lawrimore: Well, thank you guys so much for sitting down to talk to me. I really appreciate it.

Celeste Ybanez: Thank you, what a great time.

Jenny Williams: Thank you.