Oral history interview with Lisa McDonald, 2018

Erin Lawrimore: Before we start, can we have you say and spell your name?

Lisa McDonald: Sure. Lisa McDonald, L-I-S-A M-C-D-O-N-A-L-D.

Erin Lawrimore: Awesome. Today is July 3rd, 2018, and we are at Sanctuary Brewing in Hendersonville, North Carolina, with an interview for Well Crafted NC. Lisa, can we start by just having you tell us a little bit about yourself? Your background and how you came here.

Lisa McDonald: Sure. I am a Chicago native and came to North Carolina via about 15 other places. Before I was doing this, I was a professional consultant, so it kind of kept me moving quite a bit. I've lived in a few countries and all over this country and finally settled down here in 2012. Just fell in love with 00:01:00Hendersonville, and have been here ever since.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. What's your role here at Sanctuary?

Lisa McDonald: My role here at Sanctuary is kind of everything, although I'm transitioning away from that a little bit. From the beginning, it was tending bar to booking all of the events to taking care of staff, kind of documenting all of our procedures, et cetera. I feel like I used a lot of that consulting background to really stabilize and make sure that all of our processes and procedures are well-documented.

Lisa McDonald: Then I hired the best staff any brewery has ever had. I know that's a mixed statement, but they're awesome. I've backed away a little bit from those things, so these days I do all of our bookings, our scheduling, I oversee our payroll, I do all of our accounting, legalities. Then the creative side, so any new ways to either help the community or get our name out there or say fun collaborations, those things usually come through me.

Erin Lawrimore: Let's talk a little bit about starting Sanctuary.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: When did Sanctuary open?

Lisa McDonald: We opened in August of 2015, so we are right around the corner, like literally, six weeks away from our third anniversary, which is, yeah, pretty exciting.

Erin Lawrimore: Awesome. What was it that really led you ... I mean, that's a pretty decent career shift. What led you to go from consulting to opening a brewery?

Lisa McDonald: Yes, it was a very big career shift. When my partner and I moved here originally, the idea was to kind of have a respite from all of this business travel that I was doing and grow food and rescue some animals and things like that. In the meantime, while that was happening, his kind of trajectory as a brewer was really taking off.

Lisa McDonald: We decided we could take those two passions of caring for animals and trying to make the world a better place and making beer, and just put those ideas together. That's where the name Sanctuary came from. The goal was to someday have an animal sanctuary, and within just over two years we did. Now we 00:03:00actually have a 501(c)(3) animal rescue, and our brewery.

Erin Lawrimore: Let's talk a little bit about, you kind of mentioned this already, but why Hendersonville?

Lisa McDonald: Yeah, so we moved to Asheville, totally blind, like I said, just about five years ago. Knew nothing about it, had some friends that said we would like it, and since I could kind of work anywhere and the beer scene was exploding, it seemed like a good fit. We took two dogs and a cat and threw them in a truck ... We didn't throw them.

Erin Lawrimore: Carefully placed.

Lisa McDonald: I'm very nice to my animals, yeah. We lived in a hotel for a few weeks, and we were just trying to figure out where we wanted to settle down. We drove through Hendersonville, I think going through DuPont, and literally fell in love. One of the first places we stopped in this town was Southern Appalachian.

Lisa McDonald: We met Kelly [Cubbin, co-owner of Southern Appalachian] at that moment, and she is so wonderful in every way. She was kind of like the deal closer for us. We're like, "This place is great. The people are wonderful." That 00:04:00was it. We were just in love with this town. I feel like there's almost some divine intervention there, because it turns out we're exactly where I feel like we were always supposed to be. We moved here about six months after that and just never looked back.

Erin Lawrimore: Y'all were the second brewery here, right?

Lisa McDonald: We were. We were the first brewery downtown and the second brewery in Hendersonville, yes.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. How would you define the main mission of Sanctuary brewery?

Lisa McDonald: We are trying to promote excellent craft beer and advocacy for all living beings, so human and non-human animals. Keeping it nice and sweet. That kind of branches into a lot of different things, but that's our overall mission.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Can we talk a little more about the animal sanctuary?

Lisa McDonald: Sure.

Erin Lawrimore: How it ties in with that overall mission.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah. When it first opened, we thought it would be a really cool way to take a brick and mortar and promote some of the things we believe in. Animal adoption, fostering animal care, cruelty-free diets, et cetera, and so we 00:05:00started doing things like that. We were holding adoption events here. We were holding yoga with cats here every weekend, which was absolutely adorable and so much fun. All of these kind of crazy ideas. We did a ThanksLiving and brought a turkey in. His name is Xander, he's adorable. Yeah, we were doing all of these kind of interesting things.

Lisa McDonald: Then at the same time, we were rescuing, adopting and fostering out of our home, which is about two miles from here, thankfully, because we can kind of manage both that way. We have three acres, and so we got to, I think, probably around 12 animals. Realized that trying to pay for that with a startup brewery was a little tough, so we got our nonprofit status in October and became a full 501(c)(3) nonprofit, and that's when things really kind of lit up for us. Since then, we've been able to do a lot more projects we couldn't have done on our own on brewery owners' startup salary. We fenced in a lot of the property, 00:06:00we built a few different pastures. We've built a few different stalls, and now we're at 21 animals.

Erin Lawrimore: Oh, wow.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: What kinds of animals do you have now?

Lisa McDonald: We have four dogs, four cats, eight chickens, two turkeys, two goats and a pig. They're all amazing.

Erin Lawrimore: It's a happy little family.

Lisa McDonald: It is a happy little family. They all get along, which is remarkable. Like dogs and turkeys and chickens and pigs all kind of play together.

Erin Lawrimore: Wow.

Lisa McDonald: It's a pretty happy place. Yeah, it's very unique.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah, yes it is. Backing up a little, pre-animal sanctuary, I guess, when you were first starting the brewery. Can you talk about some of the challenges that you guys faced in just starting from scratch with a brewery?

Lisa McDonald: Yes. Money would be our biggest challenge in starting a brewery, and I think that's probably true of everyone. We really wanted to get this going on a shoestring budget and we did, but it was definitely very tough. The other 00:07:00thing is, I had quite a bit of business acumen from my job as a consultant, but I had no idea how to start a business or what that entailed. I always say it's a lot like being blindfolded and shoved out of an airplane at the beginning. You literally just don't know what you're doing and you kind of have to wing it. We would go to Andy and Kelly from Southern App every chance we could. They were kind of our role models and mentors through the whole process, and what we needed to do and making sure that we were covering all our bases.

Lisa McDonald: Then from there, it was just kind of going for it. Like all of this construction was done primarily by us. We had to put all of the plumbing in. These rooms that this space is made up of were actually divided into two spaces. We did a lot. It was a lot of manual labor and terror, but it's great. I love this space so much.

Erin Lawrimore: What was the space like when you guys first, I guess, found it.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah, it was a blank slate, let's say that. It was really, there 00:08:00were ... The owner of the building had some cars parked in here, and then it was just white walls and nothing else. It was a concrete floor, white walls and that was it. Everything you see was done, like from the painting to the upgrade of all the walls. Again, putting in all the plumbing, all the electrical, these gorgeous banners were custom-made for us. Really, just adding our personalities and some charm on top of all of the work that we did to this very, very empty space.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. You mentioned the folks at Southern Appalachian being a good resource for starting up. Are there other people or resources that were really kind of playing important roles in getting going here?

Lisa McDonald: We crowdfunded quite a bit, and so friends and family and their support were absolutely amazing. We had volunteer days at the beginning. Like paint parties where people would come in that had never met us before, just kind of help out. The community of Hendersonville has been so wonderful, literally from day one, from the second they found out we were going to open. The answer 00:09:00to that question is yes, every person we have ever met kind of was helpful and lovely and supportive, either financially or with their time or even just motivationally kind of being, having our backs through the whole thing.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about, I guess, the size of the brewery when you first opened, and then we'll get to now.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah, so the space, we originally opened just half of the space that you see here, which was about 2,000 square feet, and now we're at 4,000 square feet. We were renting the whole property, we just didn't have the money to upgrade this side of it. We kind of upgraded everything, got that standardized, and then started working on the other half. Then our brew system is the same size it's always been, which is just over a three barrel system. Which means a lot of brew time, but it also gives us some flexibility with our recipes because we brew five times a week, which means we're doing really cool, 00:10:00small batch one-offs as well as our more kind of tried and true staple beers.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. As of right now, if you can count them, how many employees do you guys have now?

Lisa McDonald: I think we have around 10.

Erin Lawrimore: That's awesome.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah, between our brew staff and our bar staff. Yeah, yeah. Within those 10 there's a ton of overlap, so one of our brewers also tends bar. Another one of our bartenders also helps me do a lot of admin work. Another bartender named Trey does all of our social media, so it's kind of like this cool, kind of overlap Venn diagram of skills.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. That's probably pretty helpful, regardless of what your task is, to have kind of your hand in different pots, I would think.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah. It's kind of a family effort, you know what I mean? We are all very close and is kind of like everyone jumping in according to their skillset. I think for them it also keeps them interesting, because there's some diversity in what they're doing day-in and day-out, and they're really helping. Like it's such a team effort to keep this operational, and so everybody has kind 00:11:00of a niche place.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. You mentioned that you guys do a lot of small batch one-offs, but that you do have your tried and true specialties.

Lisa McDonald: Yes.

Erin Lawrimore: Do you have a beer or beers that you consider kind of your signature?

Lisa McDonald: I would say our Hop Pig IPA, which is a West Coast IPA, is our flagship beer. It's what we produce the most of, it's what we go through the most of. People are very, very devoted to that beer, which is awesome. It was named after our pig, Oliver, so it's Hop Pig. Then we have a few other, we've got a Kolsch, a Bobby Beer, Junior Kolsch named after the musician, Bobby Bare, Jr., who's playing here for our anniversary next month, which is just funny and awesome.

Lisa McDonald: Those are our two main ones, and then we a Carolina Panther Porter that's also a pretty big deal to our clientele. Then other than that, there are a few others that come back on a regular basis, but we'll do different things with them, so we'll have a pale ale and maybe sour it or add Brett to it or add peppers to it. There might be a long line of one-off beers based on a 00:12:00pretty consistent beer profile.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. One of the recurring events that you guys currently have is the Sunday Community Meal. Can you talk a little bit about the history of that and then also some of the changes that are happening here now?

Lisa McDonald: Yes. As part of our outreach to the community, and I'm going to sidetrack for a second and then we'll go back to it.

Erin Lawrimore: Please do.

Lisa McDonald: We, again, like kind of the more interesting or unique the idea, it's always been something we embrace here. We started doing something right after we opened called the Kindness Well, where we put out essential bags with things like deodorant, toothpaste, combs, brushes, shampoo, sunblock, bug spray, water bottles, all those things, and we leave them out for the public. We'll typically just kind of flash that on social media so people know that they're here. That way nobody who's kind of going through a rough time in their life needs to come in and be kind of vulnerable. They can take what they need no questions asked, and it also allows for people to donate whenever they like, so 00:13:00you can leave things or take things. In the winter, it's mostly coats, et cetera.

Lisa McDonald: Along that sort of idea of giving back to the community, we made a free meal the first Easter we were open, for everyone, on a Sunday. It was so well received that we have done a free meal to the public every Sunday ever since, 95 percent of them made by yours truly. That does a couple of things. One, it again is outreach to the community. If you can pay for it, it's donation-based. If you can't, that's fine too, no questions asked. The other thing is as a vegan business, it really helps us get vegan food out to the public. People that maybe otherwise wouldn't try something because they think it doesn't taste good or it's not interesting, so it kind of changes perceptions on what vegan food can actually be.

Lisa McDonald: We've loved that program, but we are about to open a restaurant partnered with Jazzy Vegetarian, vegan, who's a vegan chef on PBS. That's 00:14:00opening tomorrow, which will be July 4th, so when this airs, it won't be tomorrow anymore. We're going to have a very successful restaurant. What we're going to do when the kitchen opens, instead of that community meal, is offer anyone that needs a meal, a meal whenever the kitchen is open. If you come in and you need a warm meal and you can't afford it, no questions asked, we have a pool or a fund to cover that.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Can you talk about, are there other kind of community outreach efforts that you guys are working on that you would like to talk about?

Lisa McDonald: Yes. There are quite a few. Monthly, we do a community event called the Give Forward Series. It's, actually our next one is this coming Monday, where we offer, just different community necessities. We do haircuts. We partner with Luxe Salon in town to give haircuts to members of the community. We offer a free, hot meal. We serve coffee. At this next one, we're going to help 00:15:00with basic job skills, so filling out job applications, teaching people how to just perform well on an interview, writing a cover letter, things like that.

Lisa McDonald: Then we also do a clothing drive and set up, really this whole room is kind of like a closet or a store. We provide people bags so they can come in and just kind of shop, again, no questions asked. We do that about once a month. We're also just about to kick off a bike drive for members of the community. Because having a bike is literally the difference between having independence and not having a job and not, so we're really excited about that bike drive as well.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. It seems like a lot of the partnerships that you're doing, they benefit the community but they also bring in other members of the community to provide them kind of a space to provide service too.

Lisa McDonald: Yes, yes. The reason we partnered with Luxe Salon is because Christine [Carver], the owner, does my hair. I casually mentioned it and she was like, "Yeah, let's do it. Luxe will do it." It's just really just putting these 00:16:00ideas out, and people are so receptive to these very simple things. They just didn't maybe have an outlet to do them. YAM, Yoga and Massage, is coming to the next event, they're going to provide massages. I have friends who are customer at the bar who took the day off just to come in and help. People are doing nails at this event.

Lisa McDonald: Literally, I think that everyone was just kind of thirsty for an idea. That's all we do is kind of offer the baseline, which isn't the hard stuff, it's the skill that is actually really benefiting people. Yeah, we just kind of facilitate and then let them do the really important stuff, so it's been awesome.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. We kind of talked about the new kitchen that's coming in, but are there other changes that are kind of on the horizon or other things that you're hoping to see in terms of growth in the future?

Lisa McDonald: Yeah. Well, the first thing is our brew system is right upfront in our brewery, and we open at 2:00 in the summer, so it kind of limits how much 00:17:00work the brewers can get done during the day, so there are very early a.m. starts right now. We're actually moving that to a space in the back. We have another 900 square feet or so that we use as storage right now, so we're transitioning our space, our entire brew system, to that area in the back.

Lisa McDonald: Then within the next year, we're hoping to upgrade as well. Moving the smaller system into the back means we get the plumbing and the electrical and the drainage all set up and then when we're ready to kind of put in the new system, it should be, knock on wood, fairly simple. Simpler than it would be doing all of those things at the same time.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Currently, do you guys do all of your distribution in the tap room? Are you canning or distributing outside of the actual tap room?

Lisa McDonald: We're canning and distributing very little. We're in a few locations, we're in Planet Restaurant in Asheville pretty regularly. We're in The Block Off Biltmore in Asheville pretty regularly. We're hoping when we move 00:18:00that system to the back, we can brew twice a day and start doing a little bit more wholesale distribution, which will be my job when that happens. I know, I'm pretty excited about it. Yeah, we'll start selling more when we can brew more and that, again, should help us lead into getting a bigger system.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Even though you guys have only been open for almost-

Lisa McDonald: Three years.

Erin Lawrimore: Just shy of three years. The beer and brewing scene around here and just in the Greater Asheville area has changed tremendously just in those three years. Can you talk a little bit about that?

Lisa McDonald: Yeah, the brew scene in Hendersonville and, I think by proxy because of Asheville, has really exploded. When we moved here, the South Slope wasn't even a thing, and there are probably 15 walkable breweries down there at this point. Then we've seen quite a bit of growth. It was originally two, and I think Hendersonville will have six by the end of this year. Yeah, and so that's 00:19:00within two and a half years, like you said, so it's booming.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. When you guys were originally looking at the space, like you said, y'all were the first downtown brewery.

Lisa McDonald: Yes.

Erin Lawrimore: Were there issues that you ran into with being kind of downtown and not in, is it 7th Avenue?

Lisa McDonald: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: Where Southern Appalachian is.

Lisa McDonald: Yes. Downtown Hendersonville wasn't even zoned for brewing, so they literally changed the books before we opened. That was another occasion where it was an open meeting with City Council. People we had never even met came in to kind of like go to bat for us. It was just awesome, and so that decision was fairly unanimous. I think there was one person that was against it. Yeah, so it's been just so kind, I just can't say enough good things about this town.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. One of the things that I've been talking to folks about on this trip ... We've been primarily talking with women brewers and owners, and I 00:20:00think most people when they traditionally think of craft breweries, they think of a man.

Lisa McDonald: Yep.

Erin Lawrimore: Hendersonville seems really fascinating, because at least of the open breweries currently, all three at least have a woman as a co-owner it seems.

Lisa McDonald: Yes.

Erin Lawrimore: It may be a different situation here, but can you talk a little bit about being a woman in a male, traditionally male, stereotypically male, however you want to phrase it, industry?

Lisa McDonald: Yes, but that's actually been the case my entire life. I went from IT to professional consulting, and it was completely a man's world. I was also going to countries that maybe are a bit more misogynistic. Sometimes being like flat-out ignored at meetings, and you keep blazing that trail. I feel like by the time I got into the beer movement, there are so many women before me that changed the game that I couldn't possibly take any credit for it. There are organizations like the Pink Boot Society, and people like Leah Wong, who you've said you have met with, who have been in this industry for such a long time and 00:21:00are so brilliant and professional and skilled, that I just kind of came in at the right time in history.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. Pink Boots is also something that's come up a number of times in talking to women. Can you talk about that in this area?

Lisa McDonald: Yeah, so it has a ... Pink Boots is a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization that promotes women in the industry. Not specifically just brewing, but women in the industry, across the board. They have a fairly solid presence in Nashville. I think they started out with a bigger presence in the eastern part of the state, but it's really kind of blossomed here. Yeah, thanks to some local leadership, Katie Smith from Highland is a great example of that. Yes, we are our own chapter now. We fall under Asheville, but I'm lucky to say we fall under Asheville there.

Erin Lawrimore: Right, right. Yeah, it seems that that's kind of also given a lot of women in the industry an opportunity just to kind of meet each other and work together on collaborative brews and things like that. It seems like it's 00:22:00given a lot of people kind of that opportunity just to chat.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah. It has done all of those things. It's so unbelievably supportive within the kind of women in the industry and what struggles they might be dealing with. I feel like it's not even so much based on struggles, it's like the things that we're most proud of, our accomplishments and collaborating, working together on whatever it might be. You get educational incentives or beer incentives via collaborations or the Biere de Femme, which is an all-female driven beer festival that moves around every year that we've participated in for the last two years. Yeah, they're doing awesome things. They're making my life a whole lot easier by being great and really like creating a network of women in this industry.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. If we had a woman walking through right now, came up to you and said, "I want to do this. I want to start my own brewery." What advice would you give her?

Lisa McDonald: Hire a good brewer or become a good brewer. That doesn't mean go from home brewer, it means go to school and get the best education you can. I say that because there is such a difference in commercial brewing and home brewing. You might have locked-in your recipes, et cetera, but the level of discipline around cleaning, staffing, talking to customers is just completely different. There's so much science that is taught in the educational side of it. Then also, what we did was take every business class we possibly ... We leveraged Mountain BizWorks, we did their training. We did as many of the SCORE training classes as we could.

Lisa McDonald: Write a business plan that is flawless, even if it takes you six months or a year to do it. Get your plan in order first, because that's just going to help you negotiate all of your conversations, either with financers, backers, banks, lawyers, et cetera. Everybody wants to know that you're serious about it and having a document that says, "This is exactly what we want to do," 00:24:00is a difference maker for us. I would say we would both say that, my partner and I.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. This part of the state seems to kind of be rich with brewing education programs.

Lisa McDonald: Yes, yes. There's a Blue Ridge program and good Candler program, those are the two biggest ones, and that's at A-B Tech. Yeah, go to one of those two schools and just figure it out. There are also different kind of tracks you can take. You can go from a very basic brewing education to your Cicerone training, et cetera.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah. We're lucky to live in a part of the country where all those education programs are an option, because they're not in most other places, so take advantage of them.

Erin Lawrimore: Right. Kind of putting your forward thinking hat on, where do you see the industry going in five, six years?

Lisa McDonald: That is a very good question. I think that what we've historically seen in brewing across the country and specifically in North 00:25:00Carolina is a success rate of between 94 and 96 percent. In any service or product industry, that's unbelievable. It's been at that trend for a while, so I have a feeling that's going to taper off a little bit and probably go down somewhat and then normalize. I don't think we're saturated by any means, so I think at this point, the air is a little bit thinner. You kind of have to make a very good product and really let your personality shine through.

Lisa McDonald: I would say in this industry versus others, people really want to know you. They want to talk to the brewers. They want to know a little bit about your character and what your life is like outside of the brew world, what's important to you, et cetera. I think that, as like an animal loving, cruelty-free business, that might not resonate with 100 percent of our customers, but I think people acknowledge and respect the fact that we're being very true to ourselves and we're kind of living our lives through our business. 00:26:00I think that's really important.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. What would you say is your favorite part of working in the North Carolina craft brewing industry?

Lisa McDonald: Oh my gosh, there's so much good beer. There's so many things I love about it. You meet some of the absolute best people, not only in the brewing industry, but in the brewery support industries, the directors, and the lawyers, and the accountants, and the insurance people. Everyone is pretty positive. I also love the fact that we have live music here about seven times week, because we're in a town that has so much talent, it's ridiculous. I have a place where I can actually support local artists, and that's really beautiful.

Lisa McDonald: Then the other thing I would say is specifically for us is we do feel like we're doing some good in the world. We've raised $20,000 for nonprofit organizations in the first two and a half years, and as a small business, that's remarkable. We did start our own nonprofit. I'm about to start a second 00:27:00nonprofit with a friend of mine, details are still a little bit under wraps. It's given me all this freedom to do these things that are really important to me, in an industry that I absolutely love, surrounded by people that I respect.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah, so you mentioned all the good beer. This is always one of the most challenging questions for folks. What's your favorite beer from a North Carolina brewery other than your own?

Lisa McDonald: I'm going to be very diplomatic and not choose anyone in Hendersonville or Asheville, because this would go on for days. I would say as IPAs go, my current favorite is the Oatmeal IPA from Mother Earth, which if you haven't had, is outstanding. They just came out with a Berlinerweisse not too long ago that's also awesome. Their beers are just great, but that Oatmeal IPA is like next level.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. They're a brewery who I think, in some ways, their mission kind of aligns with you guys. There are a number ... That's one of the things I 00:28:00think is really interesting in North Carolina is there are a number of breweries that do kind of have a ... Well, many have a focus on community but many also have a focus on human, animal welfare, that type of ...

Lisa McDonald: Yeah, doing the least amount of harm with, yes, with what you have to offer.

Erin Lawrimore: Sustainability was the word I was going to use but that doesn't really seem like the right word for that.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah, I mean I would say that sustainability is one facet of a larger picture of like trying to do good at the same time. Yeah, they're very mission driven.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. What's your favorite beer here? Can you pick a favorite?

Lisa McDonald: Okay, that's also very tough. I can pick a few. We do a sour version ... I was talking a little bit earlier about how we'll take like one beer and do different varieties of it. We have a pale ale called Little Sebastian, and yeah ...

Erin Lawrimore: Like Parks and Rec.

Lisa McDonald: We do so many Parks and Rec beers, it's ridiculous. We both love that show. We do a sour version of that beer that is amazing. I like the Bretts 00:29:00and the sours quite a bit. That's my niche these days. We did a Brett IPA called Rock of Love that I think is one of the best things we've ever put out. These days, we're doing Hazy IPAs like nobody's business. We did a Pineapple Milkshake, Hazy IPA about a month ago that was awesome. Every time I think I have a favorite, this team will come up with something else and then it like changes the whole game for me. Those are highlights of mine, I would say.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. When you're not here and when you're not at the farm, you're probably asleep.

Lisa McDonald: I'm always here or at the farm.

Erin Lawrimore: What would you say that you do in your free time? If you ever have any.

Lisa McDonald: I'm usually at the farm. I'm usually here or at the farm. I just came back from a conference in LA, so I still really like to travel when I can. I kind of have to have a network, like a team behind me to do that because what is like basic animal care for me when I'm not around is sometimes a squad of 00:30:00four people to do the same thing. For the brewery, I can kind of work remotely. I'm a big hiker, a big camper. Yeah, yeah. Those are probably the two biggest things, hiking and camping. I try to be outside as much as possible, which is great when you have 21 animals, so they like it too.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. With the farm, you mentioned you were a Chicago girl.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: Did you have farm experience before you guys got going?

Lisa McDonald: No. I had zero farm experience. I had visited quite a few sanctuaries. You kind of find your family, like in the beer world and in the animal kind of rescue or refuge world. I was able to benchmark and kind of leverage the expertise of people that I really look up to, a lot of whom are in North Carolina, so lucky enough to go visit sanctuaries and just pick the brains of people who have been doing this for a really long time. I kind of knew dog and cat care and then we ... Chickens came along, and then the pig came along, 00:31:00and then it just kept going from there.

Lisa McDonald: I also volunteered at the Carl Sandburg farm for about four years, and we adopted two goats from them so I kind of knew what I was doing there. I'm friends with the ranger, so that's always helpful. Yeah, yeah. They're all so unique and different, and their needs are so different, but it's ... I wouldn't call it kind of animal care knowledge, it's very, very specific to the creature and their needs and their wants and the enrichment we can offer them, so we try to focus on the individual.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah. That kind of ends my list of prepared questions, but is there anything else that you would want to talk about kind of to get the full picture of Sanctuary?

Lisa McDonald: I mean, I think that's pretty good. The fact that were able to cover like the kindness initiatives we do, and thank you for asking if we do anything else, because that brought into that Give Forward Series that we haven't really had much of a chance to talk about. Then our love of all animals 00:32:00on top of this place being my whole life, and the kitchen, so ...

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah.

Lisa McDonald: I think it was good.

Erin Lawrimore: Yeah, awesome.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah.

Erin Lawrimore: Thank you very much.

Lisa McDonald: Yeah, sure. Thank you guys.