Oral history interview with Jen Blair, 2018

EL: So, to start can we have you say and spell your name.

JB: Yes. It's Jen Blair. J-e-n B-l-a-i-r.

EL: Wonderful. Well, today is Monday, August the 27th and we are at Pilot Brewing in Charlotte, North Carolina, interviewing Jen Blair for the Well Crafted NC Project. So, Jen, to start off can you just tell us a little bit about yourself. Your background, where you're from, and how you got here.

JB: Sure. So, I was actually born in Branson, Missouri. I grew up in southwest Missouri. Since then I've lived in North Texas. I lived on the Gulf Coast for a while. I lived in Charlotte for several years, then Chicago for two years, and then back to Charlotte. So, I've been back in Charlotte for about three years now.

EL: Oh, wow.

JB: Yes.

EL: So, you're fairly recent.

JB: Yes.

EL: So, with all of that moving, how did you first get into brewing? What was 00:01:00your first kind of introduction to craft beer?

JB: Sure. So, when I was in college I drank my share of college beers. Thankfully, I have a sister who is about 10 years older than I am and knew better. So, at one point she said, "You really need to stop drinking this stuff." She happened to have a Boulevard Wheat and said, "Try this instead." Being in Missouri, that's where Boulevard is headquartered, is in Kansas City. So, for a long time it was kind of our beer in Missouri, so it was ubiquitous. And, you know, I loved it and that kind of opened my eyes to there were other things besides just college party beer that I could enjoy.

JB: Moving around, going to different places ... This was about 10 or 15 years ago that I was moving every two or three years. Going to different places, the craft beer kind of growth was just starting. And so, some places may not have 00:02:00had a very great beer selection. Very few of them had any breweries at all. It was just a matter distribution-wise of what you could get. When I lived in North Texas, Sam Adams was an exotic beer because you couldn't get it all the time, and you couldn't get it everywhere. And then moving to Charlotte, we were there at NoDa on their opening day and at Triple C on the day they opened. It's been great to see Charlotte grow with so many breweries and be able to be there and be part of that journey with them.

EL: Yeah. So, can you talk a little bit more about Charlotte and the changes and the growth in Charlotte beer from, you know, the days when NoDa and Triple C were first opening to ... How many breweries are there in Charlotte now? 20-something?

JB: Yeah. I think about ... over 25.

EL: Yeah.

JB: Yeah, so, when I moved here, I had moved here for school. I wasn't as familiar with the local brewery scene, but there really wasn't one. Old Meck 00:03:00opened in 2009 and in ... I believe it was 2011. I was at the North Carolina Brewers Music Festival. It was the very first year that they had it and they had just a handful of breweries there. One of the breweries pouring was NoDa. They hadn't even opened yet. They were there pouring ahead of their opening to kind of get the word out. They were there, Birdsong was there. They opened at kind of the same time, and when we left and moved to Chicago ... Gosh, I want to say there was still just a handful of breweries here. In the two years we were gone, a couple more opened up, and when we moved back in 2015, it seems that more and more have opened and have kept opening.

EL: That's what I was going to say. Even from 2015 to now ...

JB: Yes, yes.

EL: It's been an insane growth pattern here in town.

JB: It definitely has for sure. Even within just the past year it seems like there have been so many that have opened up in Charlotte.

EL: Yeah. So, let's talk a little bit about ... There's drinking beer and then 00:04:00there's deciding to make beer your livelihood. How did you go from drinking craft beer to working in the industry?

JB: It was very kind of grassroots and homegrown for me. I started home brewing in 2013 when I was in Chicago. I've always been an alt-grain brewer. That was really interesting, to be able to think of a flavor profile that I wanted and work backwards into a recipe to actually make it. Sometimes it turned out the way I expected it to and tasted drinkable. Sometimes it didn't. But that's part of how I learned.

JB: Then when I moved back to Charlotte I wanted to really sort of formalize my sort of scattered beer knowledge that I had here and there. That's when I decided to start with the Cicerone Certification Program, and work my way up 00:05:00through that. After doing that for about a year and a half I had gotten my Certified Cicerone and wanted to do something a little bit more on the sensory side. So, I started training with the Beer Judge Certification Program, and I'm currently a certified BJCP Judge. I actually just took a qualifying exam last week. So, hopefully soon I'll be a National Beer Judge. We'll see. Fingers crossed.

JB: But it's just a fascinating area. I'm not a science-minded person. I could probably write some dumb limerick about beer better than I can explain the chemistry behind it. But, you know, there's chemistry. There's this incredible history. It's fascinating how much of human history can be tied to beer and the practice of brewing. There's art behind it and just different flavors, and you 00:06:00get exposed to different cultures through beer. So, I don't think I'll ever get tired of being in the industry and participating in some way or another.

JB: Then through the home brewing I had met other fellow home brewers and would go to different events. That's really where I had met Rachael. Our paths have crossed a few times and we started talking. It went from, "Hey! Maybe you can come in and brew a collaboration beer," to, "Hey! Why don't you just come work here." That's been great. A few years ago I had started my blog, "Under The Jenfluence." I had started that as a way to kind of pass my education along, the things I was learning about, figuring out how to explain that in a very approachable way, definitely helped me understand it better.

JB: Through that I had just had more exposure to other sorts of beer events, other things going on in the industry. I had reached a point ... I'm trained as 00:07:00an attorney. I had reached a point where I was ready to just not do that anymore and tried to find something I could do in brewing full-time. I saw that the Craft Maltsters Guild was hiring for an Executive Director. I thought, "There is no way I would get this job!" I almost didn't apply for it because it was just almost too intimidating to see a job that would be perfect for you and then what happens if they give it to you?!

JB: But, you know, I went for it and I ended up being hired for that too. So, when I'm not brewing here or working behind the bar, I'm still very much working in beer all the time.

EL: Yeah! And so, we're going to unpack a lot of the things that you just said. Because you touched on a number of really major things. Major things for you, of course, but also for brewing culture in general. So, we'll start with Cicerone.

JB: Yes.

EL: Training. Can you talk a little bit about the process of going through Cicerone training and why you chose that path?

JB: Sure. So, Cicerone training ... They have four different levels. The beginning level is a Certified Beer Server. That's an online exam. It's about 60 questions. It is designed ... You definitely need to study for it, but it's not quite as intimidating as say, the Certified Cicerone. The Certified Cicerone is the second level, and that consists of a written portion and a tasting portion. A lot of people in the industry are seeing the value of that because it does formalize your education.

JB: For me, one of the most important things that the program does is teach you proper keeping and serving of beer. And so, you know what a beer-clean glass is. Anybody who knows me knows that I will not hesitate to post a picture of a dirty beer glass. It drives me insane because it's so simple to have a clean beer 00:09:00glass. But I digress. But that is one of the things that you learn, is there are proper ways. Beer needs to be treated with respect. Your customers need to have a great experience. The Certified Cicerone is fantastic for that. It's also really good for learning about the different beer styles, learning a little bit about their history, so you can relate that story to the end user.

JB: Then the next level is the Advanced Cicerone. I actually just took that exam last week as well. Fingers crossed again! I've got all of my things crossed that I do well on these two exams. That really was designed as a step between the Certified Cicerone and the Master Cicerone. Right now there are only about a thousand ... I'm sorry, a hundred Advanced Cicerones in the world. Master Cicerones, there are less than 15. The Master Cicerone obviously is the very uppermost level of people. I can probably name off most of them in one sitting. 00:10:00It really is this level of distinction. It says a lot for the program that the people who have reached the Advanced and the Master levels, people know who they are. They aspire to be ... You know, have this kind of knowledge or learn from these people.

JB: So, the program has been really great for giving the industry standards. I say a lot of the times it works like shorthand. If you're a Certified Cicerone, you can tell a potential employer that and they know exactly what that means. They know a lot about your skill set right off the bat. Here it's been really great. Everyone here who works at Pilot is at least a Certified Beer Server. Three of us are Certified Cicerones. Hopefully all three of us will be Advanced Cicerones by the end of the year. I just took my exam. Rachael and Josh are the 00:11:00other two Certified Cicerones. They're taking their exam in November. So, hopefully by the end of the year we'll have three Advanced Cicerones and that will make four Advanced Cicerones in all of Charlotte.

EL: Wow!

JB: Yes.

EL: And three here. That's pretty impressive. So, can you talk a little bit more about the ... how you see the Cicerone training kind of impacting your brewing? You talked about the serving side, but from the side of brewing ... Do you see a tie-in there?

JB: Yes. There definitely is. For me as a home brewer, I have definitely learned more by doing and learning from those mistakes. I have found that that makes relating that information on an exam a lot easier. Because it's not something that I need to memorize. It's just something that I know ... what to do or what not to do from a lot of experience. It's been great for people who don't have that brewing background to just learn some of the basic steps and have a good 00:12:00theoretical understanding of how brewing works.

JB: Then with the, you know, learning the processes and what can affect your ingredients, what the outcomes will be, that is ... The Cicerone program is great for that as well. It really takes you soup to nuts or I guess gain to glass, through what happens during the brewing process, and all the ways that you can go wrong with it, and gives you the solutions. If it tastes this way and you wanted it to taste this way, it gives you that education to know what to do differently next time.

EL: Yeah. Well, one of the other things you mentioned was the beer judge training.

JB: Yes.

EL: Can you talk a little bit more about that and how you decided to go that route?

JB: Sure. So, with the beer judge training, it was a little bit different for me. I had spent quite a bit of time wondering if I actually wanted to go down that path. A lot of what I do with beer judging is judging in home brew 00:13:00competitions. So, people will anonymously submit their home brews. With the BJCP competition, they get grouped into similar styles. You sit down typically with one other judge and you go through and you rate it and you really pick it apart. You pull it apart. You have your BJCP guidelines to say, "Well, this is moderately roasty but it's not moderately to high roasty." So, that's a point.

JB: I was hesitant to go into that because I was worried I was going to lose my ability to just sit down and drink a beer sometimes. I wanted to be able to turn that part of my brain off and not be excited to drink a beer and then taste it and think, "Oh no. Here's this fermentation problem and you must have used old hops." Or something like that. It's not all bad. I definitely, even in the few years I've been doing home brew competitions, there is a vast improvement in the 00:14:00quality of home brews that people are doing because there's so much information out there. And there are programs like the Beer Judge Certification Program, that's helping people sit down in sort of an isolated environment, and if you didn't know what K"lsch was supposed to taste like, after you've had 10 K"lsches in a row, you at least know what it's not supposed to taste like. And usually you're pretty lucky and you get a couple of good examples. Then all the other examples just make you appreciate that more.

JB: So, I started doing those ... doing the competitions. I'm just the kind of person ... It's like Mount Everest. It's there. So, I need to conquer it and I need to continue to hone my skills. I've told countless people if they're interested in going through the Cicerone Certification Program, that doing the BJCP judging is the very best palette training you can do. Because again, a lot 00:15:00of times you learn a lot of the wrong ways to make a beer. Then you also have to exercise your skills of communicating to somebody what went wrong and why and what they can do differently. After a while it just becomes sort of intuitive, where you start to see patterns and you can give people good, valuable feedback. Myself, as a home brewer, I really appreciate getting that from people who I'm not standing right in front of them. They're not going to take a sip and say, "Oh, yeah, yeah. This is really good," and, you know, later on maybe pick it apart a little bit.

JB: So, the Beer Judge Certification Program has been great, in terms of being able to communicate my ideas clearly on beer styles and also developing my palette.

EL: Yeah. So, in studying for both of those ... You mentioned kind of the internet opening up the world of resources.

JB: Right.

EL: But were there specific resources that you drew on in order to kind of train 00:16:00and learn?

JB: With the Beer Judge ... A lot of it is just tasting beer. Tasting beer is different from drinking beer. And so, one thing I would do and I still do, is take the BJCP Guidelines, which list all the different beer styles, and it gives you a complete sensory profile for what they should look like, what they should smell like, what they should taste like ... They also give you commercial examples. So, if you really want to know what an American Porter is supposed to taste like, it gives you a list of beers that you can go and see what it tastes like.

JB: So, I still do that. I'll go and get commercial examples. Sometimes I'll do maybe all six American Porters and try to identify them, particularly by brand. Other times I'll just do a blind tasting and be given the choice of this is one of four beer styles, which is something that you have to do in the Cicerone 00:17:00Certification Program, and just deduce through sensory and through what I know of the beer styles, to try to figure it out. So, that's been ... Tasting beer's been a great resources. Probably the best resource for anyone out there wanting to develop their palette.

JB: Of course, the BJCP Style Guidelines are invaluable, even now. I'll be sitting at a bar and get a beer and think, "Is this supposed to taste like this?" So, I can pull up the guidelines and look and kind of read through it and, you know, see yes or no. See?! I said I can't turn it off anymore. So, even when I'm trying to enjoy a beer I'm still trying to figure it out. But that, I think ... "Tasting Beer" by Randy Mosher is a fantastic resource. It's almost a textbook in itself. He's a very talented writer and makes it very approachable and entertaining to learn about beer. "Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels is 00:18:00also fantastic. "How To Grade Beer" by John Palmer. I know that's not the actual name of it. I can't remember right now, but I use it all the time.

JB: And again, all of those books just present something that is very technical and can be very chemistry-oriented, in just a very approachable way with lots of examples. It sort of puts you in a safe space to learn about all these things you can learn with regards to beer, but in a way that's not intimidating but also doesn't talk down to you.

EL: Right. So, in addition to the resources, are there people that you would consider to have kind of helped you along the way? Served almost as influential people or mentors in your kind of beer career?

JB: Yeah. I definitely think so. Within my home brew club, The Carolina Brew Masters, we have judges ... BJCP judges ... who have done it for several years. 00:19:00One of them is actually ... the past President ... his name is Richard Lane and he's a Grand Master in the BJCP. He has a fantastic palette and since he's been involved with the organization, he's always there to offer guidance on, "Here's what you should be doing on exams." He actually just proctored my last exam for me and sent me some feedback after the fact on, "I kind of glanced through it and this is what I think you can expect, but here's where you can improve if you do this again." So, he's been a fantastic mentor for that. Very tells it like it is kind of personality. And so, I don't have to wonder if I'm being given padded advice at all. It's very straight forward and I know exactly where to go after that.

JB: I would say another person who's very influential to me is Rachael. Just to be part of her ... this whole process of opening the brewery. The two of us 00:20:00studying for the Advanced together. It's great to have that other resource there and somebody who's going through it with you and has a different skillset than you do, to kind of bounce those ideas off of each other or just sit down and have a super nerdy conversation about beer has been fantastic.

EL: Right. So, let's talk a little ... You mentioned this earlier but can you talk a bit more about your recipe development process? How you go from, you know, "I've looked at the guidelines. I would like to brew this beer," to "This is how I brew this beer."

JB: Right. So, I usually do recipe development a couple of different ways. I will either be inspired by something ... you know, an idea ... and figure out how I can translate that into flavor. So, an example of something I did with that is one of my very favorite beers to brew is ... I call it my Pullman 00:21:00Porter. And so, when I lived in Chicago I fell in love with Chicago. I'm still in love with Chicago. I read all the history. I have a really terrible habit of like, going and touching the buildings. I love architecture.

JB: So, I would go look at the Rookery or something and say, "Oh, this is the first skyscraper," and touch it. One of the other things I loved was the Pullman cars. You know, the trains. So, I'd come up with the idea of the Pullman Porter and thought, "How can I kind of convey that time in Chicago history ... What I kind of think that riding in one of these luxury cars would be like?" And so, I had taken Fernet, which is my favorite liqueur, and I had soaked some cedar in the Fernet, and then had also put the cedar ... I just got a cedar plank, kind 00:22:00of shaved off some sticks off of it, and I was trying to re-create kind of this smoky, leathery like, leather seats and smoky like, cigar smoky flavors. But I couldn't find any good cigar boxes with usable wood.

JB: And so, I just bought a cedar grilling plank and cut it up and put that in the cigar box to soak that up, and then also soak it in some Fernet. That was how I wanted to convey this, you know, kind of dark, smoky, leathery environment that I imagined it would be like to be on a Pullman Porter. So, that's how I came up with that idea. And then just really went and did some research and found a pretty basic Porter recipe that I've brewed since then. I've actually brewed it here and tweaked here and there for just the base recipe. But that was one of them.

JB: Sometimes I'll think that I want to brew a style. And so, I will check the 00:23:00guidelines, see what the ingredients should look like, and then I have, you know, basically all of the books about beer. If it's been recommended I probably own it. I will go, if I have say, a book on that particular style ... I'll go and read about it, kind of get a feel for what it's supposed to be, and then make just a very by-the-book recipe, to just make a good, classic example of a style.

EL: Yeah. One of the other things you mentioned just a minute ago was your blog.

JB: Yes.

EL: Can you talk a little bit more about how you decided to start that? You kind of talked about what you aimed for it to be, but what led you ... I mean, that's a lot of work.

JB: It is.

EL: What led you to kind of go down that path?

JB: It was ... You know, it was something that I thought about for a few years before I actually did it. Like I said, I wanted to create a space where I could 00:24:00say, "I wonder why this is like that?" And have some place to go kind of do a book report on it and make it approachable from someone from any level, who could come in and read it and try, you know ... That can be difficult sometimes to try not to assume that people know too much or too little. I just didn't really see that out there. There's a plethora of beer review sites, and those are great and they have their place. There's some really, really good ones out there. But if somebody wants to learn why it's called an India Pale Ale, you're not going to find that on a site like that.

JB: And so, I had wanted to do it for a very long time and finally decided, "I just have to go for it because I'm never going to be 100% ready." I had spent some time thinking about what kinds of different things would I like to have if I were researching or wanting to learn more about beer, hat would be helpful? I 00:25:00have the "Word of the Week: on there, that is usually just a real quick definition. I also do "I Tried It," which is where I try all sorts of different things. It really kind of reflects where I am in my personal sort of beer life, because I had originally when we moved back, I was going to breweries when they opened or, you know, new bottle shops or something like that. Then as I started studying for the Cicerone and just learning about different things, I could kind of tease out ... You know, I did one on Miracle Berries after reading this book called, "Tasty," about how we taste things. I would do blind tastings and write about those. Like, I tried it.

JB: That was a place for me to present just my experience going into something without knowing a lot about it or maybe thinking I knew a lot about it, but 00:26:00presenting it in a very honest way, and saying, "I thought I was going to be really good at this and I wasn't and here's what happened." I really just wanted to, with the I Tried It, create something that somebody could relate to and say, "I've been through that. I've been too intimidated." There are a hundred little things, especially when it comes to brewing and beer, that ... Nobody wants to look silly. And so, I wanted with "I Tried It" to present my experiences to say, "Okay, I looked silly for you. Even if you looked silly, that's fine, because I did too. You can email me about it and we can commiserate about it."

JB: Then with the other articles that I'll write or blog posts ... will just be things that I ... One day was curious about Isinglass, which is a fining, and 00:27:00how that's ... I knew it was made from the bladder of tropical fish. I didn't know why or how did you get from being this fish to being put in my beer to make it clear? How does that happen? And so, I did some research on that and just presented that to say, "Okay, here's why you use it and here's how it's used and here's kind of the evolution of this." That's really what I wanted to do with my blog ... is just have an outlet for me to convey what I have learned.

JB: Sometimes even just a reason to go look something up and learn more about it, and be able to just put what I learned down into writing. If people want to read about it, that's great. I would probably still do it if nobody read it.

EL: Yeah. And I mean, this may seem like an obvious question, but can you talk a 00:28:00little bit about how that writing and research kind of impacts your brewing? How you connect the two? If you connect the two.

JB: Sure. Yeah, yeah, for sure. I have. There are times when, you know, I can say that I'll be doing something and somebody will say, "I wonder why this is like this." I can say, "I know all about this! Let me tell you about this!" Or I'll be brewing and think, "Okay. I know that I have the knowledge and I've done the research to kind of back my way into this explanation, and figure out why I'm doing this the way that I'm doing it. And if it's something that I can't do, that maybe I need to bridge that gap, then that gives me an idea for my next blog post!"

EL: Yeah. One of the other things that you mentioned a second ago is the Craft Maltsters Guild. Can you talk a little bit more about the Craft Maltsters Guild, 00:29:00its mission, what it does, but also your role there now?

JB: Sure. So, the Craft Maltsters Guild is a trade association that was formed to help support craft maltsters around North America specifically, but really we have an International membership. Craft malt is something that has really started to gain steam. The Guild was formed in 2013, and it was started by eight malt houses that at the time, there wasn't a whole lot of information out there for them. The craft malt evolution has definitely followed the same evolution as craft beer. We do actually have craft maltsters who are using converted dairy equipment, just like craft brewers used to do back in the day.

JB: The equipment, the information, everything that was available out there for them, was for industrial malt houses. A craft maltster has different needs 00:30:00obviously. They have different equipment needs, they have different barley needs. The Guild was formed to support those craft maltsters and sort of get all of that collective knowledge and experience in one place for other people to be able to glean from. We aim to educate our craft maltsters. We also aim to educate the public and brewers and distillers on what craft malt can do, not just for the finished product, but entirely up the supply chain. What it does for the economy, what it does for growers and farmers, and how it drives research.

JB: So, with the Guild, my full-time job, I'm the Executive Director there. I'm their first full-time Executive Director that they've had. My day varies. A lot of times it can be purely administrative. Sometimes I get to go out and visit the malt houses and meet the maltsters. That's really my favorite part. Any time I travel, even if it's on vacation, if I have a maltster nearby, I make sure to 00:31:00go and see them. It's, you know ... No malt house is the same because everyone's had to sort of figure out their process and their equipment and what's available to them for themselves. It's really a fascinating job. I just love it. It was really a perfect match for me. Being able to help maltsters and get them connected with that information.

JB: Being able to find farmers who are interested in growing malting barley and want more information on what they can grow and how they should grow it. It really is just up the entire supply chain of craft beer. Being able to see the end result is this beautiful beer that tastes like nothing else that you can get.

EL: Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about the maltster community just here in North Carolina? I know that's an important part of the North Carolina community now.

JB: Sure. So, we lead the south in malt houses. We have three. Barley, 00:32:00historically, doesn't grow well in the southeast. It's like the rest of us. It doesn't want to be hot at night. It likes nice, cool evenings and nights. That doesn't happen that often down here. So, one of the biggest things ... The malt houses in North Carolina have contributed to just the agriculture. The malting community is being the driving force behind getting malting barleys that can be grown in the southeast. It's really quite incredible, just the amount of research that they've been able to spur on through Virginia Tech, through North Carolina State University. Just going to them and saying, "Okay, we need to figure this out. Because we want to grow malting barley here. We want to be able to use that and have a local product."

JB: They've done a ton for getting the malting barley grown in the southeast, 00:33:00particularly in North Carolina, Virginia. This year actually was the first successful harvest of two-row malting barley in the southeast. Before they have been able to do six-row. So, they were working very closely with Virginia Tech to get a two-row malting barley developed. That's really, in most all malt beers, that's going to be a two-row malting barley. And so, that's just been an incredible thing for the industry. And also being able to embrace the growth in craft beer and the breweries who are committed to quality and to using local products. They have made that possible now, for them to be able to get local malt, which until a few years ago, hadn't been available.

EL: Yeah. I mean, that's what I was going to ask next. It kind of seems like a silly question, but can you talk a little bit more about how the maltsters 00:34:00parallel the craft breweries and the growth here in North Carolina?

JB: Yes. Yeah.

EL: Kind of the mutually beneficial relationship between the two.

JB: Right. It's been great to have the malt houses here, as I mentioned. There are breweries out there who want to be using local products. They want to be as hyper-local as they can be. They also want to just support the local agricultural economy. Those are the brewers, where they've found fantastic business partners, with the maltsters. There aren't nearly as many, obviously, maltsters as there are craft brewers. But it's been fantastic to see the different breweries who are embracing craft malt and wanting to, you know, be that decision of using craft malt and working locally with maltsters.

EL: Yeah. And I think one of the things that I've seen that was pretty 00:35:00interesting is even when I've gone to beer festivals and things like that recently, I've seen some of the malt houses at the beer festival doing tastings and things like that. Can you talk a little bit more about the importance of kind of the maltsters being out in front and visible?

JB: Yeah. I think that that's been a really great thing. I know that's really how I've been exposed to the malt houses, particularly in North Carolina, before I worked with the Guild. I knew who they were because I would see them at festivals and have the opportunity to taste the malt samples that they had, and chew on the grain, and talk with them about it. And so, that gave me the face behind one of the ingredients, which ... Really with a lot of beer you may be able to get the brewer or, you know, the brewery story behind the beer. But very rarely do you get the actual story behind the ingredients.

JB: And so, it's been fantastic to see the alt houses out and kind of driving it 00:36:00home to beer drinkers, that there are people behind this. It's not just an anonymous machine somewhere. So, that's been great. I actually had a conversation not too long ago with someone in one of my home brew clubs. I had made a beer with some craft malt that I'd gotten from one of our malt houses in Michigan. I said, "Yeah, Alison does a great job." He said, "What do you mean, Alison?" I said, "That's the maltster. She's got a farm in Michigan and she grew this barley. She harvested it, and she malted it. It's her and a couple of her employees, but this is Alison, who made this."

JB: It hadn't occurred to him before that that's what craft malt is. That, you know, I didn't say, "Yeah, this is Steve and Aaron up at Carolina Malt. They're the ones who made this." Or, "This is," ... I don't know ... "Brandon down in 00:37:00Texas. He made this. There are just a handful of people who made this craft malt that you're tasting right now. It's not QC checked by number six. It's actual people and I can tell you their story. I can tell you the development behind their malt house and their barley."

JB: Another thing that's been great about getting the maltsters out in front of the public, is tat it's also giving the maltsters the opportunity to talk about the growers. It really connects that entire story for people, when they go to drink beer made with craft malt.

EL: Right. So, we're here at Pilot. Let's shift gears and talk a little bit about Pilot.

JB: Sure.

EL: What was it that led you to want to go from kind of ... I guess the home brewing side to the commercial brewing side? What led you to say, "I'm going to make that jump."

JB: Sure. So, with Pilot it's a very special situation to me because I've never ... Being a professional brewer wasn't what I was striving towards by being a home brewer. Some home brewers, you know, are like that, some aren't. That's fine. Either way is totally cool. I enjoy the creativity behind it, and I knew that if I were to brew commercially, I wouldn't want to do, say a production brewery position. I don't want to brew the same beer over and over again. And again, there's definitely a place for that, and I know some really talented production brewers. But that just wasn't me. I wanted that creativity.

JB: If I show up today and I want to brew a Porter and I show up next week and I want to brew, you know, a Berliner Weisse, then I wanted some place that would say, "Okay. Whatever you want to brew." You have that creative license to do that, and I definitely have that with Pilot, with being able to say, "Yes. I've 00:39:00been wanting to try this or this is a recipe that I've done several times that I really like. I like to drink it so I'd like to make it." You know, make it on a commercial scale and see how other people like it. That's definitely been my experience at Pilot, is just having that creativity and that support.

JB: And again, learning where we've ... Somebody wants to make a certain style and then we all put our heads together and think about, "Okay, how would we do that? Where would we get this ingredient? Or what would we do with that process?" It's just very collaborative and very creative. We do have the freedom to not brew the same beer. You know, if it does well, of course we want to. But nobody's stuck brewing the beer they hate, over and over again. Just an example from my blog, the top post on my blog ... It drives me nuts that they're 00:40:00continually ... There's two in particular that probably account for like, 80% of the hits of all time on my blog. They're fine but they're not my best. I don't think they're the most interesting. But those are the ones that get the hits.

JB: Working, you know, in a regular brewery, a lot of times that's what you're going to have to do ... is you brew your beer that you think is fine but man, you really wish people would pay attention to this smoked hot dog bun creation or something that you made that you think is really interesting and people just start relating to, so you don't get to do that again. At Pilot you do have that creativity and that license to just try something out and if it doesn't work, no harm, no foul. You don't have to do it again. If it's not your favorite then you just ... on-ward and up-ward, try something else.

EL: Yeah. Can you talk about a beer you brewed here? If you have a favorite so 00:41:00far ...

JB: Sure. So, I've just brewed two beers here so far. I brewed a Grisette, which is a farmhouse sort of style. Then I brewed an English Porter, which I referenced earlier ... Porter is one of my favorite beer styles. So, this recipe has been something that I fine-tuned. I've won ... actually in ... There was a competition out in Portland, where I won first place in my category with the beer. And so, I enjoy it and that was a good sign that other people enjoyed it also. That one's probably been my favorite so far.

JB: I have plans for my next brew day. I'm going to do ... The beer style's called Grodziskie. It's a Polish smoked beer. I love smoked beers. This one will be very subtle. I'll take like, hit you in the face, you just inhaled campfire, smoked beers. That's not everybody's bag. This one's a very subtle smokiness. 00:42:00But I'm very excited about that. It's a historical style. And just trying to go through the process and thinking of how I want to make it or where I can get the ingredients that I need for it, has been a really interesting experience so far. So, that one may replace the Porter as my favorite. We'll see.

EL: I want to go back to the Porter. You know, you mentioned you had home brewed it before.

JB: Yes.

EL: And then moved it over to the commercial.

JB: Right.

EL: Can you talk about changes you had to make, tweaks you had, any fun, exciting experiences you had moving from one type of production to the other?

JB: It really wasn't too bad because I had brewed ... Here, I brewed it on the smaller system. So, I just really scaled it up from five gallons to 15. Really the only kind of sacrifice I had to make was when I had made it at home I used a particular kind of malt from one of our craft maltsters that wasn't available in 00:43:00the size we needed here. But really that's been ... Everything else scaled up pretty normally. So, it was just sort of I'm just brewing the same beer I've brewed a few times, just on a bigger scale and in a different place. I'm not in my garage.

EL: Yeah. Well, here, when we came in June to talk to Rachael and Raelle, we were not ... Pilot wasn't yet open. Now it is. Can you talk a little bit about the opening of Pilot? The experience of being here when a new place opens.

JB: Yeah. It was really interesting and it was great to be able to walk in to, you know, the brewery that I was a part of, even a small part, of helping set up, knowing that this was something that Rachael had worked for for so long and it was actually open, and walking in and just seeing wall to wall people. I was here on friends and family night, so there were a lot of people from the local 00:44:00community in here. Obviously there were personal friends and family here. It was just such an outpouring of support and love and excitement, that it just really made you excited to be part of something that's so special, like Pilot is.

JB: It was definitely ... I kind of fought my way through the crowd and just walked right behind the bar and started pouring beers, and did that for the next four hours. But yeah. It was fantastic and really gratifying to know that there was that community out there that was just as excited as we were for us to be open.

EL: Yeah. Let's talk a little bit about just brewing in general. What is your favorite part of the brewing process?

JB: I think the favorite part for me is just developing that recipe and doing the research and learning about it. Or learning about the ingredients to figure out what I can use or if I need to convert something. The very first beer I ever 00:45:00brewed ... I knew I wanted to bitter it with marigolds. And so, I had to do, you know, research on ... Nobody had done a marigold beer. Or if they did, the information wasn't out there. But I had read that marigolds are known as the poor man's saffron. So, there have been beers brewed with saffron. So, I could go read about those and learn about the amounts and how you want to use it in a beer, and then find a way to convert saffron to marigold flowers, and then figure out how that scales up or scales down.

JB: That's the part that I like the most about it, is just reading the different processes you can use, you know, adding things when, how that makes a difference in your final beer, and then just figuring out the proportions of everything. I like to do my malt bill by hand, just because I feel like that gives me a better 00:46:00understanding and kind of more of a connection to my entire recipe. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I'll just let the software tell me. But just taking that time to just really build the recipe from scratch is what I love the most about brewing.

EL: So, on the flip side, it can't all be sunshine.

JB: Right.

EL: Do you have a least favorite part?

JB: I have a tie for least favorite and that is cleaning and waiting. So, I'm a very impatient person by nature. Brewing throughout the process, really demands that you slow down and pay attention to what you're doing and just let things happen on their own timeline, not yours. So, that's I guess more of like, a cerebral thing that I dislike about brewing, is I get to a point where I think, "Okay. It's brewed now. I just want to get into the fermenter and I don't want 00:47:00to take two hours to get it transferred. I just want to transfer it now so I can just get through the cleaning. Because I hate that too!" So, yeah. I would definitely say it's a tie between needing to have patience and then also having to clean everything. There's just so much cleaning.

EL: Yeah. Putting on kind of a forward thinking cap, where do you see your brewing going in the next five to 10 years? It seems like we should say more years than that but the industry changes to quickly it seems.

JB: It really does. I, a few years ago, had said that I saw the industry moving away from the crazy IPAs and focusing more on things like lagers and on classic styles. Because with a lager there's a lot less you can hide behind. With a lot 00:48:00of beers ... For a while there were some brewers who you just throw a bunch of hops in and it's going to cover up all those mistakes that they made or all of their impatience. That's ... You know, as people are competing for an ever-smaller piece of the pie, you really have to start focusing on quality and setting yourself apart that way. So, that's been great to see the rise of really well done Pilsners, really well done lagers.

JB: It's very much like, you know, cooking. Just cooking a scrambled egg correctly. It seems so simple, but there's an art to it. It's the same way with doing beers like Pilsners. Again, there's just nothing you can hide behind. You're going to taste every flaw. So, I've been really happy to see that with beer moving into that direction. I think there's also going to be ... definitely ... And this is not just my craft malt bias speaking. But I think there's 00:49:00definitely going to be a lot more focus on creating that taste of a place in your beer and breweries becoming more local and regional rather than trying to expand distribution to a bunch of states or opening a taproom across the country. I see them actually becoming smaller and more specialized, and focusing on using those quality ingredients. Using that as a way to showcase your skill.

JB: So, I see the beer styles ... There's always going to be trends. You know, there's always going to be something popping up and that's fine. There's definitely a place for that. There's always a beer drinker for whatever trend. Somebody out there is thinking, "I can't wait for that smoked hot dog bun beer because I've just been wanting one of those." There's somebody out there for every beer trend. But I do see the focus still going back to classic styles, 00:50:00done well. A lot of historical styles. People sort of trying to create their niche by going back to styles that aren't necessarily going to be a trend, but you haven't heard of before. Maybe you haven't tasted a Grodziskie before or a Gr"tzer, so you're going to give that a try.

JB: There's a wealth of historical beer styles out there that you just don't see very many places. So, I think that's definitely going to be another place that breweries look to for inspiration and as a way to differentiate themselves. Lastly, I would say sort of along the same lines of the historical beer styles ... Looking more toward cultural styles. I was just reading a recipe today for Lithuanian beer and thinking, "Hmm, that sounds interesting." I'm not Lithuanian but being able to pull on that heritage and brew something like that is such an 00:51:00interesting way to connect people just to another culture that they wouldn't have experienced otherwise. And you can do it in a glass. So, I think that's definitely some place else I see the beer industry going in the next five to 10 years.

EL: Yeah. This might be kind of a curve ball question, but I just thought of this when you were speaking about like, the beer of a place. Do you think that there is a North Carolina beer? Do you think there is something that defines North Carolina beer or even southern beer? Maybe go a little broader with that.

JB: I would say not yet. I think it's coming and I know that that has been a driving force behind our maltsters too, is we need to develop a southeast style beer. Who knows what that will be? I think whatever it is, it's not going to be something that we've seen already. It's not going to be, you know, a New England IPA versus a West Coast IPA. I think it will be something completely different, 00:52:00that draws on just the unique agriculture of the southeast and of North Carolina. I could definitely see it, you know, having corn involved or ... I just completely lost my train of thought on what other ... sweet potatoes! Pawpaws. Things that you can just go out and forage. I think that's going to be where we see sort of a taste of the southeast into style. I don't think it will look like anything that's out there right now.

EL: Yeah. That makes sense. I am in favor of as many sweet potatoes beers as you would want to brew. One of the reasons we're doing interviews this Summer is we're focusing on women brewers and brewery owners across the state in an industry that I think is stereotypically thought of as being dominated by men, even though I think there are a lot more women that people realize.

JB: Right.

EL: Can you talk a little bit about kind of the experience of being a woman in 00:53:00the beer industry, and your personal experience?

JB: Sure. At times it can be very frustrating. There's nothing inherently masculine about brewing. It's not ... Brewing isn't something that I managed to do with my lady brain. You know? It's something that you ... Anybody can do it. There's not anything particularly remarkable about me brewing a beer as opposed to a guy brewing the same beer. There's just not. People need to understand that and see that there's not a lady brewer. You can just calls us brewers. That's fine because that's what we are.

JB: If you're not going to say the man brewer then you can just everybody ... We can all agree to just call everyone who's a brewer, a brewer. So, I definitely have experienced that or, you know, people being like, comically impressed that I know something about beer. It does wear on you and it can be very frustrating. 00:54:00But largely, my experience has ... I can remember the specific times that somebody said, "Did you brew this all by yourself?" Or, you know, somebody who introduces themselves to my husband and looks at me and turns around and walks away because I'm not worth speaking too. Because obviously I'm a woman. I don't have anything to offer to a conversation about beer.

JB: But those are few and far between. Generally I think everybody has the opinion of, "Okay! That's fine. Is the beer good? That's what matters." And, you know, if you've got a particularly interesting technique or something like that, then great. But, yeah. It can definitely be frustrating sometimes because it really just takes one comment to kind of erase all of the other people just treating you like a person. That's going to be what sticks in your mind. So, 00:55:00that can be frustrating and that is not ... I feel a lot of times like I get challenged a lot more on my knowledge. That's fine. I show up, I can take on that challenge.

JB: But being a woman in the industry, a lot of times you're consistently having to prove yourself over and over and over again, where If I'm a dude with a beard who walks in the room, everybody just assumes that I know about brewing. You don't have to jump through any hoops. You don't have to have a Cicerone Certification and a Beer Judge Certification. You can just be there and exist in that space, and people accept that you know what you're talking about. So, yeah. It's definitely sometimes challenging. I would say more so frustrating for a lot of woman. To just realize that all of a sudden somebody sees you in a completely different way than just being a brewer.

EL: Here at Pilot you're in a unique situation in many ways, where you have a brewer who is a woman, who is the owner, as well as other assistant brewers here who are ... at least one ...

JB: Three. Yes. Including me.

EL: Exactly. And so, you know, I think it definitely is a unique situation in that way. Can you talk a little bit about kind of the experience of working in an environment like this?

JB: Sure. It's definitely one of those things that I didn't realize that I needed as a brewer until I had it. So, even just the other day speaking with Raelle, one of the other women brewers here ... or one of the other brewers here! We were talking about wanting to do a recipe for one of our casks. Just having the conversation and bouncing the ideas off of each other of, "Oh yeah, we could do this. We could do that." And just having that nice, collaborative conversation is ... It was very refreshing to have that. To just know that I do 00:57:00have peers, and be able to interact with them on a daily basis has been fantastic.

EL: Yeah. Thinking about other women who might want to enter the industry, what advice would you give a woman who wanted to become a brewer?

JB: I would say do it. Go for it. I wasn't sure that I would get the job that I have. I wasn't sure that I would be a good beer judge. I just went out and I did it. Not that it's been perfect the entire time, but I think women tend to wait until they're almost one hundred percent sure that, you know, it's going to be okay before they make a move. And so, I say just do it. Just go to ... What's been great for me with social media, is there are several groups that are for women home brewers. It's not just, "We're girls and we home brew!" It's not that 00:58:00whole idea. It's, "Hey. I'm trying to get the PH right. How do I calibrate my PH meter?" You can just go in there and have that conversation without being talked down to or having things mansplained to you. It's just assured the community will come together and provide those answers for you.

JB: So, I think that's also a great way to get started, is to just find those groups. Even if you are not actively involved, just see that there is that community out there for you, to know that you have that resource if you need it ... I think is invaluable to a lot of women. Yeah. I mean, I would say show up. Go to a home brew club meeting. I'm the President of my home brew club. If you're a woman and you show up I'll definitely talk to you and I want to try your beer, and I'm going to talk to you like you're a human who made a beer. Go 00:59:00to those meetings and get involved.

JB: I know some people who have said, "Hey. I want to get into taproom management." And so, they just let a few of their friends know and say, "I'm willing to go in and bartend and start at the very beginning and work my way up. This is the career path that I want to take," and just putting that out there and asking people for their recommendations and having those people refer you to places is a great way to get started. Yeah. I mean, really, just act like any other person who wants to do that job. Don't get frustrated. Know that there's a community of women for you, to support you for those days when you do get frustrated. Yeah. Just go for it. You're never going to be completely ready to do anything.

EL: Right. And I think that community aspect as popped up in a lot of the interviews that we've done with a lot of women, talking about Pink Boots as that sort of resource on the commercial side.

JB: Exactly.

EL: But thinking a little bit broader about North Carolina. Do you have a favorite aspect of kind of working in the North Carolina beer and brewing scene?

JB: Yeah. I would say it's very interesting because it is ... Brewing is so big here that I sometimes forget that it's not like this everywhere. Being in Portland this Summer, you know, one of the original homes of craft beer, people would say, "North Carolina! You guys have a great beer scene down there." It's so easy to forget that you are part of this scene that's doing, you know, so many varied things and so many specialized things at different breweries that you can't get anywhere else. And to have the rest of the country kind of recognize that and see that North Carolina's this force in the brewing world. Looking to us for what we're doing. I would say that's probably my favorite part.

EL: Yeah. So, we have a few questions that we like to use at the end, that 01:01:00especially for brewers, are always hard questions. What is your favorite beer here?

JB: Here, I think my favorite is the Island Hopper.

EL: Can you talk a little bit about it?

JB: Sure. It's very refreshing and it's something ... Actually before we were even open, that it was a recipe that Rachael had worked on to really get perfect. I always looked forward to getting my bottles of Island Hopper to try. But yeah, it's very refreshing. It's a different kind of IPA that you are going to find in a lot of other places around Charlotte. It's not hazy. Again, there's a place for hazy beers and hazy beer drinkers. It's just not in our brewhouse. But it's just a very ... It's consistently just good.

EL: Yeah. How about your favorite North Carolina beer from another brewery?

JB: Favorite North Carolina beer from another brewery? That's hard because 01:02:00sometimes it's like asking a film person, "What's your favorite movie?" If you gave me a genre beer I could definitely like, name them off. I think one of my most solid, most favorite beers is People's Porter from Foothills.

EL: Yeah. So, when you're not brewing, writing about beer, judging beer, learning about beer, do you have hobbies? What other hobbies and interests do you have?

JB: I really enjoy being able to make things. In my family ... We come from a line of gardeners, quilters. My mom used to make baskets. Things like that. So, doing ... figuring out that process. It's ... A lot of things are very similar to beer. Once you learn how to do it, it's actually not that hard. There's a lot of pride in spending an afternoon working on something. So, most of my hobbies ... I enjoy making bread. I enjoy making pasta. I enjoy making cheese. So, I'm 01:03:00not like, the healthiest friend to have but I'm definitely one of the best when it comes to getting homemade things.

EL: We can get beer, bread, and cheese from you. That just seems ...

JB: Exactly.

EL: You seem like a perfect friend to have.

JB: Right.

EL: Well, that kind of wraps up my list of prepared questions. Is there anything that we didn't touch on that you want to make sure we do talk about?

JB: You know, not really that I can think of. I would say that the main thing when it comes to beer is people like what they like. And so, you know, some beer trends might not be for everyone. That's why it's a trend. I think that's important as a brewer and as part of the beer community, is to just let people like what they like. There can be some gentle teasing about it, but it doesn't make that person inherently bad if they enjoy a certain kind of thing.

JB: Like, if you're excited for pumpkin beers coming up, good for you. That's 01:04:00not me. But that's great. You know? So, that's ...

EL: Yeah. I like a good pumpkin beer.

JB: Yeah. That's perfect.

EL: Nothing's better than a Marzen too.

JB: Yeah. It's important to just let people like what they like and create a space for them to try new things. It's not fault to go back to what you're familiar with.

EL: Yeah. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for talking with us.

JB: Thank you.