00:00:00Richard Cox: Today is 10/24/2018, and we are at Four Saints Brewing Company in
Asheboro, North Carolina. I am Richard Cox, talking today with Joel McCloskey,
co-owner as a part of the Well Crafted North Carolina Project. So, if you could
start, could you please say and spell your name?
Joel McClosky: Sure. My name is Joel McCloskey, that's J-O-E-L M-C-C-L-O-S-K-Y.
Richard Cox: And your actual title is?
Joel McClosky: CEO, co-owner.
Richard Cox: Co-owner. And, tell us a little about yourself?
Joel McClosky: Well, it all started a long, long time ago. The family is from
Southwest Pennsylvania, they moved to North Carolina and started a family down
here in Dunn, North Carolina. Once the children were born ... I'm the oldest of
00:01:00three, they wanted us to grow up around our family, grandparents, aunts, uncles,
cousins. So we moved back up to Southwest Pennsylvania when I was five. And at
five years old, going back up to living near Pittsburgh, Pittsburgh I told
everybody that when I had the chance, I was gonna move back to Carolina because
I hated Pennsylvania.
Joel McClosky: I don't know what my reasoning was at that point. But fast
forward 20 something years, I was looking for a teaching job, and North Carolina
was in a teacher shortage. And so I looked at it as kind of a self-fulfilling
prophecy, and canvassed the state, and I got the teaching job down here. That's
what brought me to Asheboro.
Richard Cox: So you're teaching in the Asheboro area?
Joel McClosky: Yes. I taught in Asheboro for 10 years. I taught in the the
Pittsburgh area at an alternative high school for a few years. Was working just
00:02:00about three jobs to try to keep things together. Like I said, there was a need
down here, and so I decided to take it.
Joel McClosky: Did a job fair up in Pittsburgh, saw a couple different places,
Orange County, Mecklenburg County, Guilford County, and then Asheboro. And I
interviewed in Asheboro and it just seemed like the right fit. Everything just
kind of clicked. And at that time, Asheboro was completely different than what
it is right now, that was 2004. So it was a dry city and county. There was no
life, businesses were leaving, all kinds of stuff. At that time, I was live in
Pittsburgh. And moving from the Pittsburgh area to a town that didn't have
anything, being a 24, 25 years old was kind of rough.
Joel McClosky: But yeah, I taught in Asheboro City Schools for about 10 years. I
00:03:00taught fourth grade, fifth grade and did some instructional coaching too.
Richard Cox: Awesome. So, moving from teaching, how did you first become
interested in brewing?
Joel McClosky: I didn't know how do it, actually it's connected to the teaching
part of it, because I was teaching at an elementary school, my wife was teaching
second grade, I was teaching fourth grade. We had just gotten married, so it was
2008. And we came back, we got married in August of 2008, that's when the
referendum to pass alcohol in Asheboro happened, July 29th.
Joel McClosky: We left, got married. Came back. And it's kind all like it all
was meant to be. Because alcohol was in Asheboro. And it was also that year that
we met Amy Deming, who had just moved from New York, was teaching third grade.
Her oldest daughter was in my wife's second grade class. So, second grade
00:04:00teacher, third grade teacher, fourth grade teacher connection with the kid. And
Amy one day came in and basically said, "Hey, you seem like a pretty good guy,
you and [Kristen 00:04:14] seem pretty cool. Will you hang out with my husband?
Joel McClosky: Who is Andrew, who is my now friend and business partner. He was
working for Lowe's Hardware and basically working 12 hour shifts up in
Greensboro. So we started hanging out. And at that point, I was just starting to
discover craft beer. Up to that point, I was a High Life guy-
Richard Cox: About when was this year wise?
Joel McClosky: This was 2008. So about 2008 is when we met. So we started
hanging out, and watching football games together and going to the gun range and
shooting guns. And one day he said, "So, I brew beer." And I said, "Why didn't
00:05:00you start with that when we first met?" We could have been doing that all along?
Not that you're not cool to hang out with and I like your family, but dude?
Joel McClosky: So, that's basically where it started. There were two other guys,
Pete and Jonathan. And we would go over to Andrew's house and brew in the
garage. Kristen would end up calling those our man days. We would go over to
Andrew's garage, get there around 10:00, 11:00 in the morning, eat something and
then start brewing. And when I say we started brewing, it was really Andrew was
brewing and the other three of us were just sitting around going, "What are you
doing now? What's that? Why are you doing that?", and drinking beer.
Richard Cox: Official taste testers.
Joel McClosky: Right, well yeah, well we were drinking the stuff other people
were making at that point. And then when the brew day was done, we would throw
something back on the grill, and we would drink what we had brewed the month
00:06:00before. And so it was in those conversations that we started talking about doing
something in Asheboro and doing something around our county, and exploring
different styles. And so that's where I moved away from those American Lite
lagers to discovering stouts, and IPAs.
Joel McClosky: I remember the first IPA I had, I thought it was the worst thing
I'd ever tasted, because it was just so bitter, and it was the first time I had
experienced and unfiltered beer. So, there were these little floaties in it, and
I was like, "I think something's wrong with this beer." So, an extreme neophyte
when it came to what craft beer was.
Joel McClosky: That's really how the interest in beer got started. There's times
where people will say, "You must have been dreaming about owning a brewery and
doing this for years and years, and years." It's like no, it genuinely started
in 2008, is where the beer exploration started, and then it was 2011, 2012 when
00:07:00the idea of actually doing something with it from a business sense, started to
take shape.
Richard Cox: And how was that? Were you guys sitting in the garage and-
Joel McClosky: Well yeah, we had those garage conversations, you know, after
two, three, four beers, maybe sitting at 7% or 8%, the conversations do take a
bit of a turn. So ours became visionary, I won't say that far, but it would be
really great if, you know? What if, this isn't here in Asheboro yet, it'd be
nice if we saw something like this, and what would it do for downtown. You know,
oh it'd be so much fun. We started looking into it and were extraordinarily
naive, just from a cost perspective, what it would take. The necessities, the
requirements for what it would take to open up a brewery.
00:08:00
Joel McClosky: At one point, we were actually talking about this the other day,
at one point we thought we'd be able to open up a nanobrewery, like the brew
space, in the basement of Jonathan's house. I mean, we had a real serious
conversation about that. Measurements were taken. So again, extraordinarily naive.
Joel McClosky: So it was 2011, late 2011, there was a chili cook off back in
Bicentennial Park. And it was put on by a guy who owned a local business, who
wanted to do something. So by this point, it's been four years since alcohol's
been in town. Some restaurants have come in. 2008 was also the great recession,
which also saw a lot of businesses leaving, a lot of people losing jobs. There
were people that were pulling themselves up by their own bootstraps and say, "I
00:09:00just lost this job I had for 25 years, I'm gonna open up a restaurant, or I'm
going to open up a shop."
Joel McClosky: So we started to see some vitality coming back. There was a
concentrated effort by our city officials and the chamber to bring life back to
downtown. It was also that year that Forbes magazine, named Asheboro one of the
fastest dying cities in America. And that really pissed off a lot of people in
this town, because there's a lot of pride here. 60 minutes came to town, did a
piece, you can still find it online, and it was really to counteract that idea
of a dying town, and showing where their life was, where life was and how it was growing.
Joel McClosky: And so all of that was happening in four years. So it was like
2011, 2012. There was a chili cook off, and there was a little beer garden about
probably 100 yards from our back door right now. And somebody had fenced in an
00:10:00area, they got a special permit, had a little beer wagon, it had three taps.
Those three taps were Miller Lite, Bud Lite and Coors Lite.
Joel McClosky: So Andrew and I were standing in that beer garden, and we were
looking at this event, and the event was local people, local organizations,
local charities, local businesses, local produce, everything was local, every
bit of it. And people are just ... there was life. And we were standing in the
beer garden and holding these macro beers, and that's where we had our handshake
moment, that we were gonna open up brewery in Asheboro.
Joel McClosky: Because what we saw was this town pulling into itself, doing
everything it can to rise itself up after these tremendous job losses and this
label being put on it. In our minds, the town deserved it. And we wanted to be a
00:11:00part of this new growth and this renaissance that we saw happening. So, we had a
handshake moment, we said we were gonna open up a brewery, and that's where the
conversation became more real. The research became more in depth, the questions
became more precise, and realized what it was actually going to take right to
make something like this happen.
Richard Cox: The timing of that is sort of interesting too, because you're
mentioning 2008, and also because you're talking about a recession, which is
interesting. Because there's two different things people will tend to talk about
with opening breweries, when we talk to people. One of them is pop the cap,
which happened around that same time, and the recession and people across the
state even doing what you're saying, where people are losing their jobs and
their getting back into local businesses and craft. So it's sort of interesting
how there's a parallel there, that was happening here.
Joel McClosky: Oh yeah. Asheboro was a textile mill town, just like a lot of
small North Carolina towns. There are still some major industries here, but when
00:12:00some of those left, there are some people, it wasn't expected. And it was like,
oh we're safe, we're safe. And then, their legs were taken out from underneath
of them, and deciding to do something about it. It was exciting to be a part of
that, and see what our vision was for Four Saints, how it could have ... do you
want me to just stop like that?
Richard Cox: No, you're fine.
Joel McClosky: To be a part of it and to be a piece of that fabric for the
community itself.
Richard Cox: You said the city and county was dry, but it wasn't dry anymore by
the time you were opening. Do you know anything about the process of the city
and county?
Joel McClosky: Yeah, absolutely. So Randolph County is still dry, so the county
00:13:00itself is still a dry county. The townships, the cities, the incorporated areas,
those are all wet. So Asheboro is wet, Randleman is wet, Archdale is wet. But if
it's outside of the city or an incorporated area, it's dry still.
Joel McClosky: So it went dry in the 1950s, one of the reasons it went dry was,
some of the local city officials and people of prominence and influence,
believed that alcohol was playing part in crime, and that if they got rid of
alcohol that would decrease crime, because that really worked in prohibition on
a national level. So 1950s, it passed, Randolph County became dry. And then, as
00:14:00the years went on, some of the areas like Randleman became wet for off premise,
but not wet for on premise. So when you came to Asheboro, if you wanted to have
a drink, there was one restaurant in town that had a corking fee, the Country
Club, being a private club. Other than that, if you wanted to buy beer, you had
to go out of town.
Joel McClosky: So there were different referendums throughout the years. And the
one that happened in 2008, was the seventh one that they had put through, that
was worked. And what was different about that one was that it was more
organized. There's a fella in town who, he passed away 2011? No '14, it was
00:15:00before we were open. But his name was Steve Schmidly, he was a local lawyer
here, and he was very organized. He organized what was called the For Campaign.
And the For, it was For Alcohol, but it was for the future of Asheboro. The idea
that allowing alcohol sales was more about economic impact, restaurants coming
in, potential more hotels, the tourism industry, because of the zoo and the
other things that are around us. It was more about what it could bring to
Asheboro, rather than, "I don't want to have to drive 15 miles to get a beer."
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: So, that group was very active, very vocal. It was one of the
first times that entrenched individuals were willing to step out and say
publicly, we need this happen. And before that, there was some of that, well if
00:16:00I step out and say I we want this to happen, what's gonna be the blow back? Will
it impact my business, will it impact my circle of friends. And at that point it
was a realization, something big needed to happen. And again, it happened in
2008, with the recession happening, and there was just hit, after hit, after
hit. So being able to use that as a springboard and as a platform, really had an
impact. And so it was just an organized grassroots effort to demonstrate that it
was needed.
Joel McClosky: So the vote happen 7/29/2008, and we were out of town. But from
what I understand, when they found out that it passed, there was a little party
on the street there, you had it blocked off and people were celebrating. And it
00:17:00passed two to one, so it was a significant ... what's the word I'm looking for,
the margin was significant.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: And at that point, people were trying to figure out why it was
different, and it really was the community, the greater community, realizing
that it just needed to happen. And so, at that point, by the time we came back
from our wedding, we had our first beer in Asheboro at a place called The
Lounge, which was on Sunset Avenue above the coffee exchange. And the first beer
I bought in Asheboro was an IPA.
Richard Cox: Ironic.
Joel McClosky: Yeah, it was ironic. And it was, I want to say Taj Mahal or
00:18:00something, it was an Indian IPA, a genuine Indian IPA. It came with a full
wrapper on the top. My wife and I joked that Asheboro gave us the best wedding
present anybody could have. And we know it's not the case. But then after that,
it's just ... you've got the restaurant The Flying Pig is open, because the
owners of that restaurant said that they would open a restaurant when alcohol
came to town, and they'll probably have it when pigs fly. And that's where their
name came from. But it was neat to see that all transpire, because the community
basically took their future into their hands, to make a difference, especially
at that time era.
Richard Cox: That's amazing. And you have a beer named after this?
Joel McClosky: Yeah, actually we do. We have Steve Schmidly, his favorite beer
was Shiner Bock. We told Steve that when the time was right, when we were able
00:19:00to do it, we would name a beer after him. It's really because of his efforts and
his leadership along with him and his daughter Brooke, to really pull everybody
together. So when you see Schmidly Bock out, if you see it on tap somewhere, the
tap and the decal is actually the Four sticker, and unfortunately, it was
developed after he passed away. But we have it every July 29th, to celebrate the
passing of alcohol and the end to local prohibition, basically.
Richard Cox: That's awesome. So we're sitting in Four Saints. How would you
describe Four Saints to people who are unaware of the brewery? What you do and
the space, and where you are?
Joel McClosky: From a taproom perspective, we wanted to create a space that
00:20:00hearkened back to that old world pub idea. We're not a bar, number one. So when
people say, oh, you guys working at the bar tonight? Well no, we're a taproom.
And they go, how's that different? It's community oriented. The beer's here, our
tagline is a great beer for great people. Andrew does an amazing job creating
those beers and different styles. Traditional and nontraditional, and new styles
coming out. There's some people that come in for the beer, but it's really a
community space. We have people that, what's it called, the third home, or third
stop, or you got work, home and the then the other place, third place or
whatever that sociological name is. People come in after work, and it's that
00:21:00place to kind of shove off the day, and catch up. It's a place to meet with like
minded people. It's a place to explore new music, or have a family reunion. We
kind of do a little bit of everything. It's a place that we'd want to bring our family.
Joel McClosky: When we think about those old world pubs, people are like, "Oh
yeah, we know places that do that." And it's more than the decor, it's that
feel, that when you walk in here, you're walking into a place that is welcoming,
regardless of your economic status, regardless of your political affiliation,
regardless of any other type of orientation. You're coming in here and you're a
person. That's what we try to generate to people, that it's just a welcoming
place. The beer's here, and sometimes that's the cherry on top, you know. And
00:22:00sometimes those community spaces and those community groups is the cherry on
top. We're all about just making this place that we call home, this greater
place that we call home, better.
Joel McClosky: We've seen how we've been able to have that impact.
Richard Cox: And you do have a lot of group events in Four Saints and around?
Joel McClosky: We've got everything from just the zoo crowd just about every
Wednesday night, there's a group form the zoo that comes in here. They're not
talking about zoo stuff, it's just this is where they decompress, this is their
place. We've got a group that is part of a larger organization, called Drinking
Liberally. And it's people of a particular political mindset that they come in
and sit down, and they're just talking about the local, regional and national
news, and things of importance. We currently don't have a Drinking
00:23:00Conservatively, but we welcome them to come in. We have a group that just
started a little bit ago, they call themselves Drinking Religiously. It's
literally a priest, a rabbi, and you know. They come in with something they want
to talk about. It's just a meeting place.
Joel McClosky: We've had artists doing drink and draws. We've had gamers who
come in. Again, we have our larger community, we have the Four Saints Community
inside of those. Our community, there's these smaller groups that in effect call
this home, yeah.
Richard Cox: That's amazing. So how did you decide on the name Four Saints?
Joel McClosky: That's a great question. Going back to those days working and
brewing in Andrew's garage, and those garage conversations, as you started to
look at beer and if we wanted to open up a bottle shop, or a brewery, and trying
00:24:00to figure those things out. One of the guys that was part of that original four,
his name was Pete. He's still one of our good friends, he's actually one of our
bartenders right now. He's the kind of guy, when he gets into something, he gets
into it. So he was doing some research and found there were four patron saints
of beer and brewing. And someone said, four saints brewing, four saints brewery,
it's got a good ring to it.
Joel McClosky: So we got online real quick to see if there was anything out
there already called Four Saints. And in the alcohol world, there was nothing.
There was no Four Saints anything. There was a Three Saints, there was a Four
Friends, there was Four Roses, there's a lot of things around that, but nothing
called Four Saints. And the only thing we could find was an old play called,
00:25:00Four Saints and Three Acts. And then a 1960s quartet called the Four Saints.
Joel McClosky: So being again 2010, 2011, finding something that was genuinely
unique, you grab it. So we did, we trademarked the name. So that's where Four
Saints came to be. And people ask, "Oh, there's four guys and it's because of
that.", well no. And they're like, "Oh, well there's four main ingredients for
beer, that's why." No. But we like that concept. "Oh, your taproom has four
pillars, so that's where it came from. So everybody tries to find a reason. And
the reality is, is when we look at that reasoning, it's we see these different
layers, like yeah, it could of been, it could have been, but there's these four
00:26:00guys, Saint Luke, Saint Augustine, Saint Nicholas and Saint Wenceslaus, were all
patron saints for beer or brewing for one reason or another. So they became our
patron saints.
Joel McClosky: We're asked every once in a while, "Are you going to bring in
more saints, are you going to create another beer?" And it's like, well then
we'd have to change our name. So, we have our four saints. They're not the only
saints that are associated with beer and brewing. They are four of the main
ones, and the four that we chose. And each one is a patron saint for different
reasons. So our fall saint right now is Saint Augustine. So they're seasonal,
because we have beer associated with each one. So Saint Augustine's is a
jalapeno smoked brown ale. We had that beer prior to the saint. And it was one
00:27:00of those days in the garage, it was a mistake. We were trying to do a smoked
porter. There was a miscalculation in the malt mill, so the warp came off a
little bit lighter than it should have. So instead of tossing it out, so like
any good home brewer, what can we do with it? So Andrew had fresh jalapeno
plants in his garden, and grabbed a couple, de-seeded them, put the fresh green
jalapenos into the boil, made an extract with the seeds, put that in with the
fermentation. So we had this beer that came out with this fresh green pepper
aroma and flavor, smoke aroma flavor, a little bit of a tingle. It's essentially
what that beer still is today.
Joel McClosky: So, we had the beer, and then when Saint Augustine came around,
when we looked at his icon, it is a heart pierced by arrows, that's on fire. So
00:28:00when you think about a jalapeno smoked brown beer-
Richard Cox: There it is.
Joel McClosky: And there it is. So we put that out in the fall. He is a patron
saint of beer, because in his younger days, he was all about sex, drugs and rock
and roll, and having a good time. Had a change of heart, had his epiphany if you
will. And when he was canonized, he became the patron saint of beer because
whoever made that decision, basically said, you can't outrun your past, you
drank a lot of beer, you're a patron saint of beer. Obviously he didn't have a
yay or nay to that. But he's one of our saints.
Joel McClosky: We kind of look at it, it's kind of a life cycle for a lot of us.
We have those days of drinking a lot of bad beer and just having heydays, and
then we mature. It's taking on a different aspect and being on fire with
00:29:00whatever it is your mission or your passion is. So we kind of see it as a life
cycle, just about like a lot of people.
Richard Cox: It sounds like the choice of the Four Saints is also very personal.
Joel McClosky: It is. Each one of them has their own little ... they have their
reasoning for why they're beer and brewing. And as we have ruminated on them
throughout, it's like yeah, we can see how this has a connection. Saint
Wenceslaus is one of the easiest connections, because he was a Bohemian King,
and it was during his reign that hops were discovered as an ingredient, to get
away from the twigs and berries that were being used for bittering effect. Hops
came in, and so they not only had that bittering effect, but they have that
preservation effect, and it became a cash crop for that kingdom. During his
00:30:00reign, if you were found selling hops on the black market, or stealing hops, or
sending hops across kingdom lines without permission, you were immediately put
to death. Because it had such an economic impact.
Joel McClosky: So when he was canonized, it was, "You're our dude, like you kept
hops here in Bohemia.", and so he became a patron saint. He was listed as a
patron saint of brewers for that reason, because he was protecting ... not only
was it an economic driver for his kingdom, but he was protecting that industry.
So being that Bohemia is modern day Czechoslovakia, Andrew and I both have
ancestral lineage back to Czechoslovakia. So it just so happened that he was one
of the patron saints. My grandmother was first generation from Czechoslovakia,
00:31:00so that idea that one of the guys who's-
Joel McClosky: From Czechoslovakia, so that idea that one of the guys who's
"looking out over us" is somebody from, who, it took care of our ancestors, it's
fun to think about that.
Richard Cox: Yeah, it's pretty cool. You mentioned the Saint Augustine beer was
one of the home brew recipes. Do you have any more hanging around still?
Joel McClosky: Oh yeah, yeah. The Stout One, which is our year round stout, was
one of those original brews. It's called Stout One because we had two different
versions. We brewed the same batch and in one batch we put vanilla beans, and
the other one we didn't. So we're Stout One and Stout Two. Stout One had the
vanilla beans. So when we would go out and sample with friends and family, it
was "here's Stout One. Here's Stout Two." Over and over and over again it was,
"do you have anymore of that Stout One? Do you have any more Stout One? Do you
have any more Stout One?" That's the name. The Potter's Clay Amber Ale, I
00:32:00remember the day we named that at the garage because as the wart was coming off
the red clay sitting right beneath of us and the wart, they looked almost
identical. That's an easy one.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: The Belgian Dubbel, Genesis Belgian Dubbel, that has the name
Genesis because when Andrew got started in home brewing it was because of his
wife. It was their first Christmas together as a married couple. She didn't know
what to get him, so she got him a home brew kit. So, she bought him a home brew
kit and it happened to be a Belgian Dubbel home brew kit, and I'm not sure if
that style of beer was his favorite because that's what he started home brewing
with or if it was the reverse. From that home brew kit he started to develop the
00:33:00recipe, and once we got up to all grain, and when he got to all grain, still
looking to create a Belgian Dubbel he did that at the garage. The recipe that is
on right now for our Genesis, other than changes for size of production and some
efficiency changes, that recipe is 90% the same.
Richard Cox: Wow.
Joel McClosky: Let me see what else here. The Peach Hefeweizen was a garage
brew. Instead of listing them all. All of our year rounds, all of our original
seasonals, which is a Double IPA, Peach Hefeweizen, Honey Ginger Pale Ale,
00:34:00Christmas Ale. Those four seasonals and these six year rounds are all from the garage.
Richard Cox: That's amazing.
Joel McClosky: We brewed a lot of home brew. We gave away a lot of beer. A lot.
It was necessary to develop what we wanted to do. Past those recipes everything
else, well no, there's a few others. As I'm going through them I'm like, "no, I
got Belgian Stout started in the garage." Wow. A lot of 'em have been around for
a while.
Richard Cox: That's great.
Joel McClosky: Actually I need to make a note of that. On our marketing
materials and stuff like that. This was a garage beer.
Richard Cox: Yeah. That was great. A lot of times those tend to fall by the
wayside as it grows into a business, so it's great to see a lot of that hanging around.
00:35:00
Joel McClosky: Those six original beers. The Blonde Ale, Hefeweizen, Amber, ESB,
Belgian Dubbel and Stout. That's what we started off with, and we started with
those maltier styles and we were told time and time and time again like, "what
do you mean you don't have an IPA? What do you mean you don't have a Pale Ale?
You're going to fail. You have to have an IPA." We looked at it from the
standpoint there was already a number of IPAs and Pale Ales out there, and there
were a number of fantastic examples here in North Carolina. What we weren't
seeing were a North Carolina example of Belgian Dubbel. A North Carolina example
of a strong Hefeweizen. Obviously they're out there now. At the time we weren't
seeing them. So we wanted to focus on styles that we didn't believe had a great
representation. We also, that had that maltier profile. Moving away from the
hops. So we opened up with those six beers, and they're still some of our best sellers.
00:36:00
Joel McClosky: We do IPAs now. We do have those. At some point if you're in a
business and you don't... If you choose not to listen to the market, you're
going to have a bad time.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: And it's opened us up a little bit more from a creative process
to the brewing to marketability side from the beer and the tap room, so. There's
been some changes, but those six year rounds. Those are OGs right there.
Richard Cox: Yeah. That's amazing. That's great. So, just talk about opening
Four Saints a little bit longer. You actually chose to use Kickstarter as a
microfunding platform to fund the opening. Can you talk a little bit about the
process and why?
Joel McClosky: Andrew and I, and our wives, when we realized there was a little
bit more than we thought it was going to take. We had our initial investment and
00:37:00that initial investment there was the legal stuff we had to go through, and the
planning parts, the architect, and those things. Those funds run out pretty
quick. We had a lot of people in Asheboro, Randolph County, friends and family
outside of Asheboro and Randolph County that after drinking the beer and
listening to the vision like, "yeah, you guys gotta do that. Gotta do this. It's
great. We'll support it." There was a lot of lip service and when it came time
for us to take the next step we didn't have the funds to do it ourselves. Going
to a bank they were like, "well you need some more funds in order to get more
00:38:00funds." I think every business deals with that at some point.
Joel McClosky: Kickstarter at that point, it was really hitting a crest. There
were a number of breweries that were using it. It did seem easy. In reality, it
was a lot of work. It was also a way for us, almost as a litmus test, to see
those people in Asheboro and Randolph County who were saying, "do it, do it, do
it, do it. We'll come, we're for it." To give them a chance to support the idea
before there was actual physical space. These people that are telling us they're
going to support it, will they really support it in a very real way.
Joel McClosky: We did a lot of studying with Kickstarter and what breweries did
00:39:00that worked and what breweries did that didn't work. Talking to a local North
Carolina successful Kickstarter campaigns that weren't beer going, "hey, what
did you have to do? You surpassed your goal by 50%. What did you do to make that
happen?" Learning those best practices and then putting them into work for us,
we created the Kickstarter campaign and it took off. We were running with it,
and it was a full-time second job. I would come home from teaching and get home
at 5:00 or 5:30 and eat dinner and from 6:00 p.m til 2:00 a.m it was answering
emails, reaching out to different blogs, making sure the marketing pieces were
right, scheduling events, being at events. There was a lot of boots on the
00:40:00ground. There was a number of people, and I think there still are, that think
"Oh, we'll put it up on Kickstarter and people are just going to throw money at
it." The reality is we were selling an idea.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: We had to get out there and talk about the idea. We had to create
those relationships. We had to let people have a chance to actually try the beer
to realize, "oh, that is my favorite stout I've ever had in my life. So if I
give $10 to your Kickstarter campaign that's going to help you get this at a
production level where I can get it all the time? Yes, cool. Here's $50."
Richard Cox: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel McClosky: It took a lot of work, and it was worthwhile because it forced us
to get out there and to make those connections, and create those relationships
and become embedded in the community before our doors were even open. It helped
with financing so that when we went to the bank and did an SPA and said, "hey,
00:41:00here's how much we're looking for. Here's what we were able to generate with
just an idea." It gave us clout. The rewards and those pieces were the fun parts
of it. It certainly helped. We used Kickstarter to genuinely kickstart our
business. We were fortunate that we hit that crest. We hit Kickstarter right at
the time we did, because about a year or two after that breweries and
Kickstarter they started to disassociate.
Joel McClosky: There were some breweries that were already in business and there
already doing their thing that are using Kickstarter to try and get funds to do
another, not to kickstart anything, but just some additional capital.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: That kind of left a bad taste in some people's mouths. There were
00:42:00breweries that had successful campaigns, but never ended up opening and people
didn't get their rewards. This idea didn't come to fruition because it was "oh,
I just need some money," like we thought we could open up a brewery in the
basement of our friend's house. It kinda went away, and Kickstarter seems now to
be more generated towards those artistic endeavors with art and music and gaming
and not necessarily businesses.
Richard Cox: I was planning on following up with that because it's a very
different environment both within Kickstarter and in the brewing industry itself
then it was when you were opening so I didn't know if it still was quite the
same fit it was.
Joel McClosky: Right. Looking at the brewing industry in 2012 and looking at the
brewing industry in 2018. At that time it was, "lets start a brewery because we
00:43:00think it's going to be fun and we want to have our own business. We really enjoy
this particular craft of what we're doing." And now you look at 2018 and you got
people walking in who think, in some cases it's fact, going, "I've got a
boatload of money, I want to invest in a brewery." That was not necessarily the
case near 10 years ago. Breweries now seem more like an investment opportunity,
whereas before it was "how is this going to work?" Even when we talked to banks,
and were working to get a loan, breweries were viewed like a restaurant. Heavy
upfront capital. There weren't a whole lot of examples. There wasn't a history.
It was, "well if you're like a restaurant there's potential within three years
00:44:00you're going to fail. Within five years there's this percentage you're going to
fail." Not understanding how brewing equipment retains its resale value.
Joel McClosky: After we opened, even two years after we opened. I'm sorry. Like
2014, 2015, after we had done the Kickstarter. We had secured our loan. We were
working on our place. We had banks that were coming to court us.
Richard Cox: Really?
Joel McClosky: It was, "hey, you guys are opening up a brewery? Just want you to
know we just started a craft beer program at our bank." From their industry it
was oh here's a niche that we're not tackling in. These banks over here are
funding brewery after brewery after brewery and it seems like it's a viable
00:45:00industry. Once banks started jumping on it now you have private investors
starting jumping on it going, "well if the banks are hunting 'em, I should be
hunting 'em."
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: Some breweries you see opening up now, and there's nothing wrong
with it, that are gorgeous and large and they're in tip top shape from day one
have some large investment funding behind 'em.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: We didn't have that opportunity. There's no grief or jealousy in
that. I enjoy our story. I like how we started. It's interesting how it's
changed. Where is it going to go in the next 10 years? Which is why we're
talking about this, right?
Richard Cox: We'll get there too. So, swing back briefly to Asheboro. How would
00:46:00you compare Asheboro, because we've talked about what was happening with the
recession. So let's talk about like if you compare Asheboro now to what it was
back I think May of 2015 when you all opened. How has it changed?
Joel McClosky: As a whole, there is a recognition now looking at 2015 to now
that what has been done has had an impact. Asheboro is not what they thought it
was. I say that, because when were getting ready to open our doors. When we were
working on this, we had friends, people that were community minded influential
that would come up to us and pull us off to the side and say, "are you really
00:47:00sure Asheboro is ready for a brewery. I like you guys. You guys are great. Are
you sure you want to do this, because it's Asheboro? Are you sure. I don't want
you guys to put all this money and effort into something that's just going to
fail because it's Asheboro."
Joel McClosky: Talking with some of the other owners of other businesses getting
questions like, "are you sure you want to put in a high end restaurant right
downtown Asheboro? Asheboro's not a high end restaurant. Nobody's going to come
in here and spend $40 on a steak. Are you sure you want to put in a French
Farmhouse Bakery? This is Asheboro. It's white bread and tomatoes. It's not
baguettes. It's not a $6 a cup coffee kinda town." The reality is, is that it
is. Every community is.
Joel McClosky: When we look at Four Saints, no a $5 beer is not for everybody.
00:48:00There's somebody who is out there searching for that $1.25 draft. Go for it.
What we're seeing is that there's a greater population that is interested. They
want the experience. With everything that happened in 08, one of the other
positives I saw that came from it, was people weren't taking that dollar in
their pocket for granted anymore.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: It was, "I had this job and I was making this amount of money,
and I was set and everything and then it just went away. Now my money has more
value because now I've got to start from scratch and I've re-realized how hard I
have to work for that $10. Because I realize, I'm realigning my values with the
value of my time and my effort. I want to be aware of where I'm spending this
00:49:00dollar. Where I'm spending this $10. I wanted to be in a place I know is tried
and true. I want to support businesses that have a greater purpose other than
their bottom line. I want to support local." With that we see that with the beer
we have people that will come in here, of all ages, whether 21 or 81. They might
come in and just have a beer, but this is sometimes their first stop of the
night. Sometimes it's their last stop of the night. Sometimes it's that right
after work, I'm coming in to have that beer. There's a number of them that will
tell us, "I would have never thought about trying a craft beer."
Joel McClosky: We have people that stop in, especially on the weekends, "I just
heard about y'all." "Where do you live?" "I live here in Asheboro." Okay, well I
need to fix my marketing then, because you're just hearing about us now. Come in
00:50:00and say, "I only drink X, but I heard there was a brewery in town and I wanted
to try it." They get to drink a beer, and like "what do you mean it's made right
here?" It's like, "yeah, less than 50 feet away from you is where this beer was
made." Then we get to explain why we're here, and that supporting community.
Here's what we do, and then they start to talk with our regulars and realize
that, again the beer's important it's our product, but it's through that that
product we're looking to the larger landscape. It's fun to see those people who
come now go, "it's cause of you that I like craft beer now."
Joel McClosky: One of my favorite stories with that is my wife Kristin was
working behind the bar, a fella came in grizzled and gruff. He sat down and it
was that story, "I'm from Asheboro. I hear Asheboro had a brewery. I'm a Miller
00:51:00Lite guy, but I had to at least come in here and say I tried a beer." And she
said, "great, I'm going to suggest you start with our Blonde Ale. Omie blonde.
It's light and crisp, not too malty not too hoppy. It's the right color. I'm
going to give you one of those. Try it out." And so she served it to him. She
walked away, gave him a chance to drink it. Came back, and still fairly grizzled
and gruff, and he says, "That wasn't bad. A little heavier than what I'm used
to. What's next?" She said, "oh, okay." And she poured him a Potter's Clay Amber
Ale. Said, "here's our Potter's Clay Amber Ale. It's a little maltier, so it's a
little sweeter. It's got a little bit of a hop bite on the back end. It is
different, but not unapproachable."
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: Sat it down, walked away, came back. He seemed more grizzled. She
00:52:00said she prepared herself for the conversation. Just based off his appearance.
From his look I should say, not his appearance, his look. And she says, "so
what'd you think of that?" And he said, "that first beer you gave me, I liked. I
liked that beer. The second beer you gave me. I loved." And she said he just
immediately like melted and it's like that grizzledness went away and he had
this new experience. Something he potentially would have made on his own.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: Went out making a choice at a restaurant or at a grocery store.
He wanted to know more about the brewery, and he wanted to know about the beer,
and how, why was it so different. How could it be? How has he been on earth so
long and not tried something like this before. By the end of the conversation
00:53:00he'd had another Potter's Clay and told her, he said, "well I'm still a Miller
Lite guy, but now I can say I like craft beer." And he's become one of our
regulars. He comes in and he gets Potter's Clay, and he's become part of our
community here. He's made some friendships here. He's met people that he didn't
know before. Again, it's that piece of it. The beer was this new experience,
this holy cow what have I been missing my whole life? But that's grown into
something personal outside of the beer.
Richard Cox: It's that third place you were talking about.
Joel McClosky: It's the third place. Those are some of my favorite stories.
Richard Cox: That's a great story. Other than I think we talked about the
finances of opening a brewery. What were some of the other challenges you faced
in opening your brewery in a space that was already established, and a downtown
00:54:00that was just seeing growth?
Joel McClosky: The biggest struggle was the building's close to 100 years old.
Anytime you decide to take something that's 100 years old and take it back to
its bones in order to put some muscle and skin back on to it you find issues.
There were numerous construction issues. Not with the construction company or
anything, but just going, "oh, we didn't think we were going to have to fix
that. We probably should, and oh, we didn't realize this was happening." So that
was a big issue, because then that just ties back into the finance part of it,
because it cost more to do the upfit in the construction, which then led to more
time. Basically finding out that these kind of projects it's all about time and
money. You're spending one or the other and making those decisions.
00:55:00
Joel McClosky: So there were a number of times where working with Andrew and we
have a good relationship. We see things differently, which obviously causes some
consternation from time to time. There were times he would was more interested
in spending the time and doing it ourselves and I was more interested in
spending the money so we could focus on something else. And vice versa.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: That part of it, which led to just stress. You're starting
something new, both brand new into it, trying to figure it out.
Richard Cox: Lot of money involved.
Joel McClosky: Lot of money involved. Lot of time. Being away from home a lot.
Both of us very fortunate to have the wives that we do, because the reality is,
is that if either of our wives said no, we wouldn't be doing this. And our wives
00:56:00are two of our biggest cheerleaders.
Richard Cox: Support.
Joel McClosky: Support. Thank you. But also they're willing and ready and able
to do anything that needs to be done.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: Because it's their business too.
Richard Cox: Exactly.
Joel McClosky: Their names are on the loan documents. They've sacrificed as much
time. They've sacrificed as much as either of us. So sometimes there were those
moments where it was you haven't been home in four days, because you're working
at school and then you're coming home and eating dinner, and then you're
hammering nails and doing stuff until midnight. So finding that balance was, and
even in the beginning when we got open, finding that balance of home family life
and business life and self and personal life.
00:57:00
Joel McClosky: I'd say the other things were other people's expectations.
Certainly. Most of that was in a positive aspect of, "why aren't you guys open yet?"
Richard Cox: Ah. Okay.
Joel McClosky: "Why aren't you guys open yet?" Instead of having to say, "well.
We didn't realize we were going to have to do this and now we have to get more
money. And now it's this and this and this." People were interested and excited.
The Kickstarter did a lot of that because there was ownership, "hey, I gave you
guys $200 to get this up and running, why aren't you guys up and running yet?"
Sometimes that was slightly wearing. Those individuals may not have been fully involved.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: And so having to realize and go "they did. They gave us $200. We
need to explain that. We need to share that out." That sometimes was difficult.
00:58:00Made us step back and look at a couple things and make us better. The time and
money and other people's expectations sometimes made things the most difficult.
For us too, just being plum wore out. We were talking about it the other day,
and we were laughing about how Andrew and I at different points and on different
days fell asleep on our concrete floor. You know, working on a particular
project, and I came around the corner and he's snoring away on the floor. I
laughed at him and woke him up, and about a week a later I did the exact same
thing. That was really it. Those were the hardest pieces, because we had the
vision and we knew who we wanted to be. That stayed true. I can't say we ever
00:59:00deviated or didn't understand what we wanted to do and what we were striving to
do. It was everything else. It was the stuff that we didn't have any control over.
Richard Cox: Right. Yeah. So you mentioned your wives.
Joel McClosky: Yes.
Richard Cox: Are there any other resources or people that you've drawn on to
help you in opening and growing the brewery?
Joel McClosky: Everybody who was willing to listen. This community, and Asheboro
is fantastic for that. We talked to a number of people to just kind of give us
guidance and suggestions and learn about the community a little bit more. We
have our lawyer, John Szymankiewicz out in Raleigh was a wealth of information.
01:00:00Our banker, James Goudy of BB&T was instrumental. Our landlord, Brooks Hedrick,
his willingness to do what we wanted to do here, and his realization and his
vision for this particular space. Our friend, Eddie Bernard, who runs his own
business and is a wealth of knowledge and friendship.
Joel McClosky: The number of people that we put the call like, "hey, we need
some help," and have 20 people show up almost at a moment's notice to pull down
old drywall or bust out some walls or to tear down a roof. At some points it did
feel almost like a barn raising.
01:01:00
Richard Cox: Yeah. Yeah.
Joel McClosky: We just said, "hey, we need help," and there were ready and able
people that helped put this place together.
Richard Cox: How would you describe your average week? Don't get tired talking
about it.
Joel McClosky: Wow. Yeah. Well starting out, when we opened our doors, it was
essentially just Andrew and myself doing everything. When it came to the tap
room we had some friends and family that came into pour beers, to help out just
so we had some extra bodies behind the bar.
Joel McClosky: Andrew's brewing, at that time it was probably two times a week.
He's now up to about four times a week brewing plus packaging. For me a Mondays,
01:02:00well for both of us, we're both here...
Joel McClosky: ... on Mondays. Well, for both of us. We're both here generally
on Mondays through Fridays at least by 8:00 AM which is probably one of the
things that surprises people still to this day. "Hey, can we come by and talk to
you about this project that's going on at the city?" or whatever.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: And, "What time can we meet you?" How about 9:00? "Well, I don't
want to make you come into work early." Good, you're not because I'm usually
here by 8:00. "What? Why you at work at 8:00? Your taproom doesn't open until
4:00." You're right. There's other things that happens prior to that, so Mondays
through Fridays is 8:00.
Joel McClosky: There's Mondays and Tuesdays for our administrative kind of days
and sales calls, and then the rest of the week it's ... 8:00 to 5:00 working on
the business side of things or doing deliveries or doing offsite events or any
01:03:00of a host of other things. It really kind of goes in waves where certain weeks
are just slam packed with events or community things, brewery and beer-focused
events, and community events or organizations that we're involved in, and then
there's the times of being in here as one of the owners and walking around and
talking to people as they're enjoying the taproom.
Joel McClosky: Some days are 16 hour days and some days are short 10 hours days.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: It's just the reality of it. In the beginning, that first six
months I can tell you was a complete blur. Getting up and doing the work and
then going out and doing the sales and then doing the deliveries and hustling
back from deliveries to be here in time to open up the taproom. And open up the
01:04:00taproom, work until midnight, go home, be on the computer 'til three AM catching
up on other stuff. Sleep 'til six. Take my daughter to daycare ... Kristen's off
to school and then do it all over again.
Richard Cox: Yeah, wow.
Joel McClosky: I ... Andrew was doing some similar time frames and looking back
on it now I'm not exactly sure how we did.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: But ... It got done. And so now we're fortunate that we have the
employees and the staff employees to be able to take care of those things. So,
we can focus on those larger big picture things that move the business forward.
Richard Cox: Right, excellent. So ... And this is one we've actually talked
about a lot. But ... Which is your community partnerships and how you're
embedded in the community. So, how do you, with those community partnerships how
do you feel they benefit? Your working with the community benefits the
community, as well as benefiting the business?
01:05:00
Joel McClosky: Oh, for ... It benefits ... We see it as being ... Partnering up
with those organizations and the community organizations regardless of whether
it's the soup kitchen, or family crisis center, or the partnership for children,
or the AM-Vets. We're fortunate to work in an industry where we make beer. We're
selling our product.
Joel McClosky: So, with that, we're not carrying any major issues. So, to be
able to take some funds or some of our time and support those people and those
organizations that are doing greater work than we're doing to help individuals
and to help our community be healthier and stronger and ...
01:06:00
Joel McClosky: I wish we could do more. Knowing what the family crisis center
does for abused women and children ... This is ... Beer doesn't matter. And it's
helping them out. Knowing how the soup kitchen is feeding people that are
struggling just to put food on their table. That's why our beer matters because
we can help that.
Joel McClosky: Whenever we can, whenever we see a time where we're asking people
to come in and spend their ... What's the word ... Their discretionary income on
beer and entertainment and fun. To be able to take that and turn that around and
take some of those funds and support somebody that's doing something great. It
goes with that mission of great beer for great people.
01:07:00
Joel McClosky: So, we hope to benefit the community that way. It benefits us
because we're ... It's part of that greater vision to have a stronger community.
And so, when people come in and say, "Hey, I saw you guys did this, and this,
and this. It's really great you're supporting community and I wanna support you
guys because I know you're not just trying to pocket every single cent." There's
plenty of businesses out there that are doing everything they can to pocket
every single cent. And our goal has never been to be riding around in
Lamborghinis and private jets. And anybody who gets into beer because of that
reason is way off target.
Joel McClosky: We wanted to create a better community and so we do that by being
that third place. We do that by supporting those groups and organizations and
then that gets played back into us as, we are not just a business, we are a
01:08:00community partner. And that's our mission, to be the community partner.
Richard Cox: Right, and perhaps tying into that, is that one of your traditions
is the Four Saints Mug Club.
Joel McClosky: Oh, yeah.
Richard Cox: So, can you tell us a little bit about what that is and how it got
started, with your prop.
Joel McClosky: That wasn't intended but yeah. When we did the Kickstarter
campaign, one of the pieces, one of the reward levels that we saw consistent in
the successful campaigns was a mug club. And so we wanted to create the mug club
and ... There was obviously plenty of glass mugs, there's metal mugs, there's
all kinds of different ways to make it stand out.
Joel McClosky: And as we were thinking about it that here in Randolph county,
01:09:00it's nationally known for its pottery. The pottery ... A lot of the potters were
... That was a group of people we got to know through the beginning stages when
we were going out and doing events and meeting people in Randolph county.
Joel McClosky: One of the things that we heard a lot from potters was, we create
these pieces that are meant to be functional and people put them on their
shelves and they collect dust.
Richard Cox: Yes.
Joel McClosky: I had one potter tell me if you ever buy a pie plate from me, you
better damn well make a pie with it and not just put it up. And there are pieces
that are meant to be decorative and aesthetic. But most potters create pieces
that are meant to be used because that's the tradition of pottery. It was practical.
Joel McClosky: So, when we started thinking about that and talking to potters.
Why don't we use ... Why don't we ask the potters about making mugs for our mug
01:10:00club? And so, we threw the idea past somebody, I genuinely can't remember who it
was, and they suggested we start with a fellow named [Howe Pue 01:10:14]. He
owns New Salem pottery in Seagrove. Actually, no it was Chris Julian, suggested
Howe. Chris was the guy who did our website and did some design work for us.
Joel McClosky: Chris suggested we talk to Howe because he's a potter and he was
one of his good friends. So, we went down and we met with Howe and took some
beer and just sat around and talked about the idea and what we were looking to
do. Explained the mug club that we wanted to have. Mugs that we put numbers on.
John Smith would be mug 32 and his mug would live here, and so when he came to
Four Saints he could come in and hopefully at one point we'd remember what his
number was.
Joel McClosky: But he said, "I'm part of the mug club, my mug is 32." He gets to
drink his beer out of a potted mug. And Howe said, "Well, that's a great idea.
01:11:00How many mugs do you need?" I said, "Well, we were looking for about a hundred."
He said, "I ain't doing a hundred mugs." He said, "I'll do ten."
Joel McClosky: So, great. He goes, "You need to go talk to Michael Mahan from
the Ground Up Pottery. Go talk to him, tell him I sent you." So we went and
talked to Michael Mahan and shared the idea. "Yeah, I'd love to do mugs, how
many do you need?"
Joel McClosky: "Well, right now we need about 90."
Joel McClosky: "I ain't doing 90 mugs. I'll do ten." So, we got passed around
from potter to potter and ... At one point one of the potters, Mark and Meredith
Haywood of Why Not Pottery said, "Hey, how about instead of you guys going to
talk to everybody individually, how about we have a party, you guys bring some
beer, you could talk about what you guys are looking to do, talk about this mug
idea, and see if any of the potters there are willing."
Joel McClosky: "I'll do three." "I'll do five" And ... And so, we had ... We
01:12:00ended up with 120 mugs total, about 63, 65 of them went through Kickstarter. And
so at a $200 level you got a mug and we chose the mug for you. At $250 you could
actually come in and choose your model. Which one you wanted. And so ... That
initial set I think we had, 12 to 15 different potters. Some of the ones I've
already mentioned plus Great White Oak, Ben Owen Pottery, which is, he's a world
renowned potter. They all are renowned in their own right.
Joel McClosky: Let's see, who else did we have? I could name them all if I
looked at them. But ... So, we create the ... And so ... That was one of the
01:13:00Kickstarter rewards. So people had the mugs, and ... When we were getting ready
to open, about a month before we were getting ready to open, we need a capital
infusion. We needed some money and we needed it fast. So, we had these extra
mugs out.
Joel McClosky: And so, we put it out there, here's the rest of the mugs. And by
that time there were people that didn't know about the Kickstarter campaign and
now they were able to get their own mug. And it's done a couple of things. One,
and first and foremost, we get to showcase one of Randolph counties parts of
pried. One of the things that makes Randolph county what it is.
Joel McClosky: And so we have all these pottery mugs up there. Especially people
on their first time in, they wanna know about the mugs. Tell me about the mugs,
'cause it's something that's different than in other places. There are some
places that do have pottery mugs in their bar, but they're all the same mug. And
01:14:00whether or not that it came from a mass produced something or other, I couldn't
tell you. But we have all these different styles, all these different looks.
Joel McClosky: And so then we get to share the good news about Seagrove. And
say, "Where you from? You from Durham? You like pottery, you obviously asked
about that. Which one do you like best?" "I like that one." "That one's from
Bulldog Pottery. Here's their website, you could learn more about them and we've
had potters who've said they've had people that come through, say they've seen
the mugs at Four Saints and they wanted to see what else they has. Or they
didn't realize that there was this community and ...
Joel McClosky: So, we get to tell more about our greater community of Randolph
county. Plus, it's pretty. It draws attention and what it's done in here as a
third place. Now, we have people that identify, you're one of us, you're one of
the mug people because you have a mug, I have a mug. Who did your mug, mine's
01:15:00done by this. I like how yours ... And so it's kind of created a bit of
exclusivity, which is what the mug club was meant to do in the first place.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: And it's probably one of our top, frequently asked questions. How
do I get in the mug club? And we keep it exclusive. So, every anniversary we do
a live auction. And so we commission potters that we haven't had here and don't
have on the wall yet and ask them to make mugs for us. And it's your style,
however you wanna do it.
Joel McClosky: And we'll get those mugs in, we bring in an auctioneer and we do
a live auction. And with that live auction, part of the proceeds go, we give
back to the Our Daily Bread soup kitchen, the Randolph county honor guard, and
01:16:00family crisis center. And so it's using this thing that people are coming in and
spending discretionary income on something that we can then turn around and say,
to the Randolph county honor guard, which is an all volunteer group of veterans
that go around and provide last rights to veterans across North Carolina.
Because there's no state organization that does it.
Joel McClosky: These guys will do three or four funerals and travel from
Statesville to Reedsville, wherever in a day, and their paying for their own
stuff. So, to be able to say, you guys are doing something, again, greater than
what we're doing. Here's how we wanna be able to help out your mission. So, we
do that, and every once in a while there's somebody that comes through.
Joel McClosky: It's somebody we get to know that, celebrated or not, are doing
01:17:00something amazing.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: And we wanna be able to say, we see what you're doing, we see
your impact. You belong on the wall. So, this one is actually from the Ground
Up, this is Michael Mahan's. And I chose it because he did all the FS's, all the
Four Saint pieces, he did this all by hand. And so, you can genuinely say with
every piece of pottery up there, that even if it's the same style, every piece
is unique. Because it might be a little more squat, it might be a little more whatever.
Joel McClosky: But that one just kinda, I like the color too. So ...
Richard Cox: Awesome, okay. So, here's a broad question for you about your
business. How do you see Four Saints growing in the future.
Joel McClosky: More beer.
Richard Cox: More beer?
Joel McClosky: Yeah, I mean, that's really the long and short of it. We are
01:18:00currently working on expansion plans to grow our production, to grow our brick
and mortar space, and to grow our distribution.
Richard Cox: Wow.
Joel McClosky: We are looking at next door and ... We currently have the lease
on that space, we currently have plans on that space. Right now it's financing-
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: Is the big hold up. Pardon me. We're looking to put in a canning
line, additional cold space, additional dry storage space, and then a small food
truck like kitchen.
Joel McClosky: One of our ... Two of the biggest things that people ask about
here is, where can I sit outside? And we're landlocked, we're building locked,
we don't have that. And currently don't have an easy opportunity to make that
01:19:00happen. People ask about the roof.
Joel McClosky: We've got a lot of, there's a lot of steam pipes that are going
up through that roof from the production facility and from the brewhouse, and
we're not gonna tinker with that. Food is the other one. So, we're not looking
to do full brew pub, and not a full kitchen, like you might see at full-scale restaurant.
Joel McClosky: But taking ... The idea of taking a food truck kitchen and taking
it off its wheels and setting it back there to give some versatility, to be able
to have some food on site. That's another big piece. And it's a big piece
because it's gonna require a partnership with somebody, because I have no
intentions of running a kitchen.
Joel McClosky: I ... We sometimes struggle making sure we've got milk at home.
And our daughter will let us know when we don't have milk at home. So, I'm not
gonna try and worry about if I've got enough spinach leaves for the potential 50
01:20:00people or whatever.
Joel McClosky: So that piece of it, which wouldn't be able to do that, would
increase the amount of fermenters that we have in the back, to increase that
production. Which would then increase our distribution. Our current plans from
day one were never to go past North Caroline. Maybe one day we'd be Murphy to
Manteo, but the more we look at it just being ...
Joel McClosky: The opportunities in the triad, in the triangle where we are.
We've got a good foot hold. There's still plenty of opportunity out there that
we haven't even brushed across yet. Not even to mention Charlotte.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: So, even within just an hour and a half of here, there's still a
lot of opportunity. So, to get to statewide. That brings in the whole question
of potentially going with a distributor, that type of thing.
Richard Cox: That's a whole other conversation you could have.
Joel McClosky: That's a whole other conversation, so ... So, that's it. It's
01:21:00growing those pieces and then ... We see ... Especially putting in a kitchen, we
can see that. Certainly growing the business that's happening here. And ...
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: So, that's what we're seeing that happening.
Richard Cox: So, what's it like working in the craft brewing industry today?
Joel McClosky: It's fun. And that ... And it's fun in the regards that it's ...
That competitive brotherhood and sisterhood that you hear ... It may have come
up in these conversations before, but knowing that I'm in ... Easily in direct
competition with somebody like Paul and Linda Claire out of Deep River and
knowing that we're potentially vying for the same tap handles, vying for the
same shelf space in bottle shops.
Joel McClosky: A week and half ago I sent Lin a message and said, "You guys do
01:22:00this really well. How?" And she emailed me back within 24 hours going, here's
what we do.
Richard Cox: Oh, wow.
Joel McClosky: And so, it's this realization that yeah, we are competing but
when we look at the larger picture. We need to work, we do have to work
together. For survival against the bigger corporate giants.
Joel McClosky: And for the namesake of industry. It's a craft industry. It's
small. If you come to us and we talk about how much we're about this community,
and you go to the next brewery and they talk about how much they're about
community, and talk about the next brewery and they're all about community. But
we don't work together as an industrial community. It's almost hypocrisy.
Richard Cox: Right, right.
Joel McClosky: We're all working to make it better for each of us. So, that ...
I can tell you being a teacher. There were times I went to a teacher and said,
01:23:00"Hey, you do this really well how do you do it?" "Well ... I can't, I'm not
gonna share, I created that, I'm not gonna ..."
Joel McClosky: I'm just trying to teach these kids and you do great, this is
amazing, I don't know how you do what you do. "Well ..."
Joel McClosky: So, there's ... Coming from that kind of ... And it wasn't
everybody it was ... But it's ... The willingness to share ideas, the
willingness to work together, when you collaborative ideas, collaborative
efforts ... It makes it easy to work. And our ... Matt, who's our sales rep.
There's sales reps from other breweries that will call him up and say, "Hey, by
the way in case you didn't know there's a new place opened up, here's the
contact, here's what they're looking for. You guys have a great version, you
guys have a great hefeweizen. They're looking for one."
Richard Cox: Oh, wow.
Joel McClosky: And Matt does the same. Or ... And that's just, again, just
01:24:00another example of how people work together. And we see breweries though that
will need ... They'll be looking for a particular amount of grain because
something happened and I need 50 pounds of this, who's got it? Oh, we've got it.
Come and get it, just get me back some time in the future.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: And so that makes it easy working in the industry. When you're
looking at the industry itself it's still being fairly new on the larger scale
of things. There's still a lot of what's okay, what's not okay, we can talk
about the legislation parts of it. We could talk about the enforcement parts of it.
Joel McClosky: And how ... For me, seeing how some of the rules and laws that
are out there that are meant to protect the small guys from the big guys, are
rules and laws that have a negative impact on what we can do.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: And to be able to get a better, to be on a more even playing
01:25:00field, simply because we don't have the same funds as certain big guys do.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: Watching it day in and day out of who's doing what and which
breweries are signing with partnership agreements that become buy-outs that
become ...
Joel McClosky: It's a constantly changing landscape that ... Trying to describe
that to certain people that aren't in the industry, going why does that matter?
Here's why it matters. Here's why it matters they are no longer craft beer.
Here's why it matters that they're making this decision and how it has potential
to effect us.
Joel McClosky: So, it's constantly changing, staying informed is sometimes difficult.
Richard Cox: I'm sure it is, yeah. And how would you say all this has changed
since you first went into the business?
Joel McClosky: Which part?
Richard Cox: Just ... the brewing scene broadly. As broadly as you can I suppose.
01:26:00
Joel McClosky: The ... I think it's mainly from ... I see a lot of who's getting
involved in the business. Because there are again, as mentioned earlier, there's
big bucks coming in. Because it's seen as an investment opportunity. There's
people that are getting into brewing because ... And not ... Immersing
themselves maybe as much as they should in standard practice. And putting out
not necessarily the best product.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: And I'm not just talking about here in North Carolina. I'm
talking about all over. And so, that has some potential to have a negative
impact because then it's, well, if that was craft beer then ... People have a
tendency to generalize. If that was craft beer and I didn't like, then that's
01:27:00craft beer, probably not gonna like it.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: The ... wackiness with beer styles ... I won't name anything in
particular or specific because ...
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: I just ... But, some of the things that are being done with beer,
in some ways is ... I think it's detrimental. I am starting to see the ... The
general beer drinker is starting to go, yeah, I've had that. And it was what it
is. But what I'm really looking for is just a ... I'm looking for a good beer.
That was fun, I'm not gonna drink a lot of that. But I want a good beer.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: And so the ... The general beer drinker is starting to come back
01:28:00to this, I just want good. I don't need fun. I want, I need good.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: And I think it goes back to that value of the dollar. Here's this
beer and it's aged and this and sat on this and infused with that ... And they
can give you eight ounces for 12 bucks.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: Versus here's a beer that you're gonna drink over and over again
and it's gonna satisfy every need you have.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: And you're not gonna have to worry about anything else other than
it just being a refreshing drink and its five bucks. There's a difference and
again with those wackiness of beers and those intensities of beers and the
marketing and the FOMO, the fear of missing out. Creating ... Creating that
secondary market. And creating things where people are ... And I didn't even
01:29:00realize it was a thing. But beers that are so hyped.
Joel McClosky: We're one of the ... When people go to that release day there's
signage up that says no home brewing equipment is allowed in. Because people are
taking ... I didn't realize those existed. People would go in and it's one per
... One ten ounce pour per person and it's 15 bucks. And they're taking that
pour and they're pouring it into half ounce vials or ounce vials and capping it
to take it off premise. To sell into the secondary market, to monetize it.
Joel McClosky: So, I spent 12 bucks on this and now I'm gonna sell you this half
ounce that you couldn't get for 12 bucks or more of now a flat, warm beer that
doesn't match anything what the brewer-
Richard Cox: Intended.
Joel McClosky: Intended. So, that part of it, again. It's when things go to that
01:30:00kind of an extreme.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: That it's easy for other people to make a joke of what we spend
70, 80 hours of our week doing. So that piece of it is kind of ... Those
extremes. I've not heard about before and learning about them now, it's just
that ... That makes it, it can make it difficult.
Joel McClosky: Every once in a while, people go, "Did you hear about this? They
use this in their beer. Why would anybody do that?" I don't know. I don't know
how it works. But it worked for them, that's fine.
Joel McClosky: I explain to people, for us. We like to focus on beautiful beers.
There's sexy beers, there's beautiful beers. It's fun to take the sexy car for a
01:31:00ride every once in a while, it's fun to go on that date with that sexy person,
but usually there's a whole lot more there that you don't wanna deal with.
Joel McClosky: And that beautiful person, that beautiful beer, it's something
you wanna come back to, over and over again because you can count on it. It's
solid, it's standard, it's satisfying. Yeah, beautiful beer, more than sexy beer.
Richard Cox: That's well said. So ... Do you see that fun to good that you were
talking about as one of the ... Maybe where you hope or think you see the
brewing industry going over the next three to five years?
Joel McClosky: The ... the what? I'm sorry.
Richard Cox: I guess, where do you see the brewing industry going over the next
five years or so?
Joel McClosky: I think, over the next five years, I see it going ... People ...
There's starting to be a focus again on just standard styles.
01:32:00
Richard Cox: Yeah, right.
Joel McClosky: I ... The number of times with our, and using our amber ale as an
example. People say, "Oh, it's hard to find a good amber." That's a standard
style that's been around for a long time.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: We're seeing ... hefeweizen is a style that's been around for a
long time. And again, that beautiful beer aspect. There's certain things that
have been around for centuries and generations for a reason. Style never goes
out of style.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: And so ... I think there'll be some more exploration of ...
genuinely classic styles. So you're starting to see Rogan beers starting to pop
up. It's this old German style beer that kinda disappeared and nobody's really
doing. The old's gonna become new again. Gose is a perfect example.
Richard Cox: Gose is.
Joel McClosky: Berliner Weisse's are a good example. Instead of ... I see the
01:33:00industry instead of going-
Joel McClosky: Instead of ... I see the industry, instead of going how much
further can we push the envelope-
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: Going what hasn't been done in a long that we can make our own?
Westbrook brought their gose out, people went crazy for it and now hose's are
everywhere. It is a benefit to everybody because again, a standard style,
classic style, that is refreshing, and it's enjoyable, it has its place. And of
course every style isn't going to be experimented with, but I think there's
going to be a focus on what was once standard, and bringing that back.
Richard Cox: Yeah. Great. And is there anything that you see as unique about
Southern beer and North Carolina beer?
Joel McClosky: I'll speak to just North Carolina in general.
Richard Cox: Sure, yeah.
Joel McClosky: I don't know another state that loves itself as much as North
01:34:00Carolina, and I mean that in a good way. There's that pride, in NC Made, NC
Local. Growing up in Pennsylvania there was no campaign about Buy Pennsylvania.
There wasn't anything that, accept for coal I guess. You had Wisconsin and their
cheese, but coming down here, I moved here in 2004, this idea of this North
Carolina pride, and it's from North Carolina was unique to my experience. I see
that going into those other industries, and going into the beer industry and
focused on North Carolina, the number of breweries I see myself drawn to,
they're interested and using those local ingredients. I know it's a standard
idea in craft beer itself, but it's nice to see that, that there's a want to go
01:35:00"What's our North Carolina heritage? What can we use from around here?". We're
seeing persimmons and grits and local pumpkins and the peaches. I don't see that
when I go to Pennsylvania, to visit family, I don't see that out of Pennsylvania
beers. I see it out of North Carolina beers. That focus on being local
genuinely, and that pride, genuine pride, I think is what separates North
Carolina from some other states.
Richard Cox: Great. So we'll talk about brewers guilds and alliances.
Joel McClosky: Sure.
Richard Cox: For a little while. What do you see as the benefits of these types
of organizations, like the North Carolina Craft Brewers Guild and the Triad
Brewers Alliance?
Joel McClosky: North Carolina Brewers Guild, when we first started getting up
01:36:00and rolling, it was, I had a difficult time seeing what the purpose was. With
like any other kinda organization, with the right kind of leadership, to put it
on the right path, the North Carolina Brewers Guild now is, it's that voice in
Raleigh for us to keep our industry top of mind. That idea, oh they just make
beer, like right we make beer, but we have genuine economic impact, there are
jobs being created, there's the tax revenue that's being created. To just push
it off as "well, they just do this", you're right, in comparison to some other
industries. However, we have a place at the table, because we are putting into
the state coffers, multiple times.
01:37:00
Joel McClosky: Helping our industry to get that credibility as a genuine
industrial force in North Carolina, the Guild has been fantastic at that, from a
marketing standpoint, doing things like the Public House at the State Fair.
Working to become part of this state-wide tradition, and to create and put craft
beer in their as part of that state tradition, because it is North Carolina
made. It's focused on small business, and mom and pop shops for lack of a better
term. The North Carolina Craft Brewers Guild is top-notch.
Joel McClosky: The Triad Brewers Alliance, being a part of that is, as a
marketing component, to say to anybody in craft beer, yes Raleigh has a great
01:38:00brewing scene, Asheville has a great craft brewing scene, Charlotte has a great
craft brewing scene, but here we are in the Piedmont Triad, and because of our
geographical, because of how we're spread out, it's tough to market that. So
coming together and saying, here's a group of 19 breweries and a cidery that
want to bring people in, to demonstrate the good things that are happening here,
makes sense. It makes sense from being able to do collaborative events and
potentially cooperative purchasing.
Joel McClosky: From that marketing standpoint, going look if you're going from
Raleigh to Charlotte, and you're going to Charlotte because you wanna go see
some of the breweries down there, you're gonna be driving past a couple of
really good ones, you need to make a stop. We've got some great breweries here
01:39:00in the Piedmont Triad, and so being able to give everybody a collective voice,
it matters. And it matters from the number of people who come and sit at our
taproom, or sit at Natty Greene's taproom, or sit at Proprietor's taproom, or
sit at Foothills taproom. To be able to say that we have a collaborative effort,
and you need to go see these guys too, it makes sense.
Richard Cox: And you see that marketing push as the primary mission of the Triad
Brewers Alliance?
Joel McClosky: Yeah. It really is. Because it's so spread out, it creates some
difficulty in having one voice. In Asheville, it's certainly more sophisticated,
because they've been around for so long. But they have the Asheville Brewers
Alliance out there, they market and people know Asheville as a beer destination.
01:40:00That's that main component, whether it's people from in state or out of state,
it's where they stop.
Richard Cox: Beyond that geographical range, I suppose is a good word for it,
how would you describe the Triad brewing scene as different or unique?
Joel McClosky: The Triad brewing, I see it more focused on, I can't even say
that...no. There's a a lot of focus on standard styles, there are a few outliers
in individual beers, but overall it's not hey how funky can we get? It's lets
make good beer. Lets make beer that people will come back to, over and over
again. So you see amber's and wheat beers, goses and stouts. It's not a bunch of
01:41:00beer aged on crazy amounts of things, it's just a pretty standard repertoire,
and I think that's a good thing.
Richard Cox: It is, absolutely. And you are the current president of the Triad
Brewers Alliance, so what duties does that entail?
Joel McClosky: Lots of emails. Right now, it's putting together some signature
events, getting out, creating opportunities for people to gather and experience
all these breweries in one space. It's also about creating the...getting the
breweries to know each other.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: I don't often get to go up to Elkin, to Angry Troll, so the Triad
01:42:00Brewers Alliance, it's an easy excuse to communicate, for lack of a better...to
put it that way. It's a reason to communicate with other breweries.
Richard Cox: Right.
Joel McClosky: That we may not have an absolute need to every time, so creating
those relationships between these breweries that maybe spread out, to create
other opportunities, or just friendships.
Richard Cox: Absolutely.
Joel McClosky: And relationships. Those two things, it's trying to find ways to
grow those relationships, in the breweries themselves, and then with the people
coming to visit our breweries.
Richard Cox: Right. What are some of the events that the Triad Brewers Alliance
puts together?
Joel McClosky: We did the past two years working with downtown Greensboro, last
year was a Taste of the Triad, where different breweries partnered up with
different restaurants, and created one-off beers, to be partnered with small
01:43:00tastes from these different restaurants, to create a food and beer experience.
We're looking at potential...a beer fest, not just another beer fest. We're
throwing around some ideas of how to make that happen. We're looking at working
with Tap Hopper Tours and getting tours really focused on Triad breweries, and
making that work and not to spread it out, to get down here to Asheboro, to get
out to Saxapahaw, to get up to Elkin. Those are some of the things that we're
working on right now. So busy.
Richard Cox: What would you say is, these are the fun question, what would you
say is Four Saints flagship or signature beer?
Joel McClosky: Wow. Our two best sellers are the Omie Blonde and Potter's Clay
01:44:00Amber. Which again speaks to those pieces earlier, it's not our bandwagon
dealing with IPA, it's these two styles. They're two that have been around with
us since day one, and whether here in the taproom, or in distribution out to
restaurants and bars and bottle shops, those two beers are solid and those are
the two beers that Andrew brews the most. We didn't come out saying this is our
flagship. Most people think since we're from Randolph County, the Potter's Clay
is our flagship, but taking it off of the market, and what our customers, and
what our fans drink the most of, I'd have to say those two. Hands down.
Richard Cox: That ties back to what you were saying earlier, about you didn't
start with IPA's. Which is what most people would assume.
Joel McClosky: Yeah. We do have IPA's now. Right now, October 24th 2018, we've
01:45:00got six IPA's on tap, which is erroneous. It's kinda got out of hand. We didn't
have an IPA on, and that first three months of being in business, we're the new
brewery so people came in and sat down and looked at the menu and went "Where's
your IPA?" "We don't have one". "How do you not have one? Well I drink IPA's,
it's what I look for. What's your hoppiest beer then?" The mantra, the maxim
actually, of the customer's always right, is not about give me what I...gimme,
gimme, gimme. It's more what the market's asking for.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: So if you own a shoe store, and everyone comes in looking for
green shoes, you should put some green shoes on the shelf.
Richard Cox: Yeah, right.
Joel McClosky: Cos that's what the customer's looking for. So we decided our
01:46:00first IPA was a session IPA, so it was kinda, pouting a little a bit, "we're not
gonna put out an IPA, we're gonna put out a session IPA". We called it You Asked
For It, so that was the name of the IPA.
Joel McClosky: What we realized was from a brewing standpoint, from an artisanal
perspective, brewing different styles of beer, whether it's a blonde ale, an
amber ale, or an IPA, is going to help Andrew become a better brewer. There's
different techniques, there's different ways of doing things. It gives him an
opportunity to expand his brewing knowledge. From an artistic standpoint, it
also gives him an opportunity to try something different, try something new,
experiment with different types of hops.
01:47:00
Joel McClosky: What we did then was we decided to have an IPA, but not a
standard IPA. It was basically like once a month, we would have a different type
of IPA, so black IPA, red IPA, white IPA, Belgian IPA, rye IPA. It was let's
have fun with the style. Then that worked out really well. Our customers in
here, or out there, were like "We like this one, we can't wait to try the next
one". As Andrew's become more efficient in brewing, and then brewing more, we
sometimes see some overlap in IPAs, like right now.
Richard Cox: Did that tie in with your Devils Advocate experimental series you
do? At the beginning?
Joel McClosky: The IPA's didn't. But the Devils Advocate series, that's where
01:48:00some of the beers, where they've been born from. Not necessarily the IPAs, other
than, the brut IPA is one of the ones we have on. It's the newest, trendiest
style, so Andrew brewed a pilot batch of that. That was our Devil's Advocate for
one week. And the pace at which it sold that week told us, hey we should go
ahead and make that as a production batch, so we do. We have that as a
production batch. There are beers that we've tried on the Devils Advocate series
out of fun, sometimes tongue in cheek, like taking our pumpkin ale and adding
coffee and vanilla and some more spices to it, and calling it Yoga Pants Latte.
We put that on, as quickly as it sold, we're gonna be doing that as a production
batch this year. But not every Devils Advocate makes it to that label.
01:49:00
Joel McClosky: Going back to the IPAs, the proliferation of it is, we put a new
IPA on and the one that was there before, which we may only have couple sixtel's
of left, now gets forgotten. That's not the new IPA anymore, I want the new IPA.
And as the brewing process goes, he's planning them out, and sometimes there's
that overlap, then creates that "Oh, that's the old IPA". It's still tasty, it's
still in date, it still has everything it needs. They kinda cannibalize each
other. Because now instead of just having an IPA, having multiples causes
issues. It's just like if we had five different stouts on, they would do the
same thing to each other. But people, the IPAs have won awards.
Joel McClosky: When he puts his mind to brewing a particular style, he does the
research, he does the learning to know how to do it well, using what he's
01:50:00already done, applying it to a new style or new version. I say it often, I've
told him, sometimes he makes my job really easy, because the beer that he brews
sells itself, and I'm pretty sure that he's a time traveling wizard, because
when he decide he want to do a gose, he did a gose, and it nailed the first
time. I'm very fortunate to be in business with him, and I'm really glad he's
one of the owners so, I hopefully don't have to worry about him walking away to
another brewery. It's definitely having fun.
Richard Cox: What would you say is your favorite beer not from Four Saints?
Joel McClosky: Good question.
Richard Cox: North Carolina beer.
Joel McClosky: Favorite North Carolina beer. I am a big fan of Old Hickory,
01:51:00always have. Their imperial stout, just flat, straight imperial stout, not on
raspberries and barrels and all that, is one of my favorite beers. It's just a
good, solid representation of that style. I enjoy what they do with their
barrels, with Daniel Boone and Seven Devils. They've got barrel aging on
lockdown, and so when we created our barrel aged beers, our bourbon aged Pending
Grace, they were kinda the standard that we held ourselves too. Does this match
up to what Old Hickory's putting out? Old Hickory's easily one of my favorites.
Richard Cox: So what's your favorite Four Saints beer? What's your favorite baby?
Joel McClosky: Thank you for putting it that way, it is tough picking, and a lot
01:52:00of times it's a matter of what mood am I in. But for me, Potter's Clay and Stout
One. Those two originals, I go back to them all the time. It's fun to be
somewhere and people go "what are you drinking?' And I'm like I'm drinking the
Potter's Clay. "Really? Why aren't you drinking that new beer you just put out?"
Cos this is the one, those two beers are two of the first that started it, and
we put them out there because we loved them, you know. And I know for Andrew,
Omie, the blonde ale, is one of his favorites. It's one of simplest beers, it's
straightforward, it doesn't have all the hoppiness, it doesn't have all this and
that and the other, it's just a great beer.
Richard Cox: Is there anything that's gone away, maybe from the Devils Advocate
01:53:00series or wherever, that you personally really liked and miss? That maybe didn't
catch on for some reason?
Joel McClosky: I'm thinking through all the beers that we've done. I can think
of beers that we've done that I don't know if we're gonna be able to do again.
Richard Cox: But that you really enjoyed?
Joel McClosky: One of the best beers that we've done, that I know we're gonna be
able to do again, if we can catch lightning in a barrel again, the rum barrel
aged stout that we did last winter. I've got one can of it left at home, and I'm
terrified to open it.
Richard Cox: Yeah.
Joel McClosky: Because it's my last one. Not because I'm gonna pour into vials
and stuff. That beer, that was one, the first time I tried it, I was like this
01:54:00may be my absolute favorite beer that we've ever done. And it's just because of
the way that those rum flavors and the spices from the rum played with the
stout, because it was just our Stout One, it wasn't an irregular stout, it was
our standard stout, which is one of my favorite styles. And the way all those
flavors merged together, just created an elegant experience. That one, hopefully
we can, I say finding the rum barrels, its finding the right rum barrels, at the
right price, so that we're not having to charge an arm and a leg.
Richard Cox: Sure.
Joel McClosky: But Devils Advocate wise, we've done so many. As our website
gets, we're gonna be updating our website, I'm gonna have one of the pages
dedicated to all of the Devils Advocate's that we've done, to be able to go back
and kinda take a walk back in time. The first one we ever did was sweet potato
01:55:00pecan casserole. It was a pilot system beer, a brown ale base, that we used
local sweet potatoes and local pecans with and added a little bit of lactose to
it, to kinda get that marshmallow effect in there. The creaminess. That was the
first one that we ever did, and it was good, but didn't pass muster to take it
to the next level, but walking back through my calendar I can see, oh yeah I
remember we did that one, we did that one and we did that one, and it's been fun.
Joel McClosky: So I wanna put that out there for everybody to be able
to...because we have people come in and be like "Alright, so you guys had a
Devils Advocate last year...". Okay, I need more information.
Richard Cox: We had about 52 last year.
Joel McClosky: Yeah, you get some cases. Yeah, we had 52 of them last year, so
01:56:00let's bring it in.
Richard Cox: That's all I've got.
Joel McClosky: Okay.
Richard Cox: Is there anything you'd like to add?
Joel McClosky: Oh man. No. We never got the history of the building.
Richard Cox: What was the building originally? A hundred years old right?
Joel McClosky: It's about a hundred years old. The family that owns the building
built the building. Brooks Hendrick, who's our landlord, his grandfather is the
one who built the building. It was originally built as a Buick dealership, and
this space we're sitting in right now was the showroom floor.
Joel McClosky: In that time, early 1900s, you ordered your car. They'd have two
to four models sitting right here, and you'd walk past the windows on the
01:57:00street, window shop, go ooh I like, I wanna go take a look at that Buick, and
you would go upstairs. This part of the ceiling above us here, wasn't here. So
you would talk to the salespeople, you could look down onto the floor from
upstairs, and then they would bring you down so you could actually sit in it,
perfect sales technique, once you touch it, it's yours kinda thing. And you'd
order your car, walk away and then however long later, your car would come in on
the railroad, which is back here by Centennial Park, basically came in like an
erector set.
Joel McClosky: Everything past these posts was the assembly floor, and so the
car was actually put together here. When your car was done, they would get I
touch with you, however they did in 1910, send a messenger boy, or call you up
01:58:00or send a letter or whatever. And you'd come and get your car, and you would
roll it down this alleyway, that's behind us, the floor still slopes, it still
has the concrete bumpers, so you didn't run into the wall. And you would drive
away on Fayetteville Street, ten mile an hour. The envy of all your friends with
your new Buick.
Joel McClosky: Once cars started getting put together complete, and you needed a
car lot, because people expected to come in and buy a car and walk away, or
drive away with it, this became a mechanic shop, cos it was already set up where
the cars are put together. There were a couple gas pumps out front. After that,
it became a Western Auto Parts store, which was kind of a catch-all. You had
auto parts, but then there was also a little bit of everything. It was one of
the only places in Randolph County, or the only place in Randolph County, where
01:59:00you could buy Schwinn bicycles. It was the Western Auto Parts store, there's
still a large amount of the population here in Asheboro that remember that. When
we first opened, people would come in and they'd kinda GPS themselves here in
the taproom, and go "I think this was where I was standing when". You know, my
dad brought me my first bike, or when I came in with Uncle Billy and he helped
me find fuses for my car, or mom came into buy this.
Joel McClosky: It was the Western Auto Parts store up until about the
mid-eighties. And people remember coming in here and buying skateboards, and
that kinda. It was almost like a Walmart before Walmart, just kinda everything
was here. After that there was a Scratch n' Dent grocery store, there was a pool
02:00:00hall upstairs at one point. When we were pulling down the ceiling, Andrew and I
were doing it, pulling down the old sheet rock, and just disgusting-
Richard Cox: Hundreds-
Joel McClosky: Decades of stuff up there. We kept hearing these little pings on
the floor, and just thought it was nails or screws or whatever. At one point
pulled stuff down, looked down, and there's a coin on the floor. Picked up the
coin and it was a quarter from 1942, and so he and I just looked at each other
and we're like "how many pings did we hear?". A lot. So we stopped pulling down,
and we just had this pile of dust and everything, whatever, so we started
pulling through it, and came away with just about two handfuls of nickels,
quarters, dimes, all pre-1945.
Richard Cox: Wow.
Joel McClosky: So we started asking about it. Somebody said I think that's where
02:01:00there was maybe a pool hall upstairs. We said it to one guy, we mentioned it, he
goes "That must have been where my dad used to go to play pool". We started
looking around, and the gum wrappers, double mint tea berry, Beemans, Ritz
cracker labels that were packaged in Raleigh, Camel cigarette packs, Coke caps
with the cork on them, Pepsi caps with the cork on them. As we started talking,
I still have all this upstairs and ...
Richard Cox: Oh wow, that's great.
Joel McClosky: The intention was at some point we'd put in a shadow box and just
show off, but talking to people, were like oh yeah you were a Coke guy, or you
were a Pepsi guy. You were a Beemans guy or a Double Mint guy. You were a Ritz
guy or a Nabs guy. Imagine this pool hall of guys standing like, he drinks
02:02:00Pepsi, we don't talk to him.
Richard Cox: Smoke everywhere.
Joel McClosky: We found a couple cigar stubs. We found a pool cue. Found an old
popcorn box from the Carolina Theater, which is two doors down. So the pool hall
was there, then it was a Mexican bakery, it was J and R's Mexican bakery. When I
moved into town, that's what it was. After the Mexican bakery left, it became a
veteran's craft shop. And now it's a brewery.
Joel McClosky: So with Brooks and his dad, who at this point, I think he's 96,
still as sharp as a tack. It was the idea that we wanted to bring this building
back almost to, not to light, because there was always something happening here,
but bring it back to what it was originally intended, where this is the
02:03:00showroom, and that's production. Bud's dad is the one that built it, and for him
to see it come back to life and become a significant part of the community
again, he's enjoyed. And Brook's has enjoyed that because his dad and him, they
own it and we'll see where things go from that. This building's been part of the
community for a while. I think it was waiting for something to help cement it
again, in the present.
Richard Cox: Awesome.
Joel McClosky: So.
Richard Cox: Thanks man.
Joel McClosky: Absolutely.
Richard Cox: Appreciate it.