Oral history interview with Elizabeth Shamburger, 1999

WOMEN VETERANS HISTORICAL PROJECT

ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

INTERVIEWEE:Elizabeth Shamburger

INTERVIEWER:Eric Elliott

DATE:March 15, 1999

[Begin Interview]

EE:This is Eric Elliott with the University of North Carolina at Greensboro [UNCG]. This is March 16, 1999, and I'm talking with Miss Elizabeth Shamburger here in Greensboro, North Carolina, today as part of the Women Veterans Historical Project at UNCG. Thank you, Miss Shamburger, for agreeing to be interviewed today. And we'll start off with just telling us a little bit about your background, where you're from. Where were you born and where did you grow up?

ES:Star, North Carolina, about fifty miles south from here.

EE:That's in Montgomery County, I believe, isn't it?

ES:Right.

EE:And that's where you went to high school, where you grew up your whole life?

ES:I went to high school there, and then I came up to UNCG which was Woman's College [Woman's College of the University of North Carolina] then.

EE:Well now, did you have any brothers and sisters?

ES:Pardon?

EE:Did you have any brothers and sisters?

ES:I had three sisters.

EE:Three sisters. Tell me a little bit about your parents. What did they do?

ES:My father was the doctor, and he and mother lived in Star, and that's where I was born. I finished high school there and came to UNCG then.

EE:Where did he go to do his medical work? Was that in state? Did he graduate from Carolina [UNC Chapel Hill], or where did he go to get his degree, his medical degree? Do you remember? Your dad, where did he go to school? Where did your dad go to school?

ES:Where did my father--? He went to the University of Maryland.

EE:Maryland? So was his family from Maryland and moved down to Star?

ES:No, he just chose to go there.

EE:So y'all have been in that area. What about your mom? What did she do?

ES:She was born in Moore County and she was taught by her family, because this was a long, long time ago.

EE:Right, and grew up and met your dad. After he became a doctor and moved to Star?

ES:Pardon?

EE:She met your dad after he came to Star and set up practice?

ES:I guess. Right.

EE:Were you the oldest, youngest, or in between? Were you the oldest, or the youngest, or in between?

ES:No, I was the youngest.

EE:You were the youngest. Did any of your sisters go off to school?

ES:Yes, they did. My older sister went to Guilford [College, Greensboro, North Carolina] and won a scholarship to Bryn Mawr [College, Bryn Mawr, Pennsylvania]. And Anne, my other sister, went here, there, and yonder. She didn't finish at 00:03:00Guilford, but she did go to Guilford.

EE:What got you interested in WC?

ES:Pardon?

EE:What made you want to go to WC, to Woman's College? Why did you pick Woman's College?

ES:Well, it was near home and it was--I don't know, it's been so long ago. [chuckling]

EE:Do you remember when you went to school if you had an idea what you wanted to be when you grew up?

ES:I went to Guilford for one year, and didn't like it, and transferred to UNCG.

EE:Okay. You went to Guilford because your big sister had gone there?

ES:Well, my oldest sister went there, and that's where she thought I should go. [chuckling]

EE:Now what did you major in when you were at WC?

ES:There's nothing there that's comparable to what I majored in. I've forgotten what it was called. It's not the same now, but it's--I guess it would come under environmental science. I'm not sure what is over there now. I don't remember. [chuckling]

EE:But you were studying about the environment and about nature? Was a lot of biology involved in it?

ES:No, it's been so long ago I've forgotten. I worked in the--Well, I don't know, I can't remember. I did work in the cafeteria there. And I've forgotten 00:05:00what--It's been so long, I cannot remember.

EE:What is it that you do remember from that time, as far as were there favorite professors or subjects or things that--funny memories you have from that time period?

ES:I don't remember. [chuckling]

EE:Do you remember where you lived on campus? Did you live in Spencer [Residence Hall] or--? Did you live on campus?

ES:Yes, I did.

EE:Did you live in Spencer dormitory, or one of the other dormitories?

ES:You know, I've forgotten. I lived in Mary Foust, I think.

EE:Okay. Who was the dean back then, do you remember? Was it--?

ES:I finished in 19--

EE:Thirty-four?

ES:That's right. And then I came back and went to graduate school after I worked 00:06:00for a while.

EE:So Dr. Foust was the president?

ES:That's right.

EE:Was Dean [Harriet] Elliott there then?

ES:I'm sorry?

EE:Was Harriet Elliott there then as Dean of Women, do you remember? Was she after you? Mrs. Elliott, do you remember her?

ES:I don't remember.

EE:Okay, but you remember Dr. Foust?

ES:Pardon?

EE:You remember President Foust as head of the college? You remember President Foust as head of the college?

ES:Yes, I do.

EE:After you finished with your schoolwork at WC, what did you end up doing? Where did you go?

ES:After I finished over here? I went to Pennsylvania Hospital for one year for dietetics.

EE:Now what made you decide to do that? Is this because your dad was a doctor and you knew something about it, or what made you think that might be something? Do you remember?

ES:I don't remember.

EE:Now was your sister at Bryn Mawr at this time, so when you were in Pennsylvania you could visit with her?

ES:She won a scholarship for one year at Bryn Mawr, my older sister. And she finished at Guilford. And Anne, my other sister, went there but she did not finish.

EE:Right. So when you went to Pennsylvania Hospital, that was your first big trip away from home, wasn't it, as far as--Of course, you were away at WC, but that was a long way away to go to Pennsylvania.

ES:It was the one-year dietetics. After I finished here, I went there and did a 00:08:00year of dietetics.

EE:And you had to do that to get licensed as a dietitian?

ES:I didn't have to. There was a training school in North Carolina, but I did not want to go there.

EE:Right. So did you enjoy that year in Pennsylvania? Did you like it?

ES:I did like it, very much.

EE:Did you stay in Pennsylvania after you finished the year, or did you come back to North Carolina?

ES:I joined the American Dietetic Association then and got an appointment at City Hospitals in Baltimore [Maryland].

EE:Had you ever been to Baltimore before then? Did you know anything about Baltimore?

ES:No, I joined the American Dietetic Association, and at that time you could suggest where you would like to work. And I did, New York and Baltimore, and I got Baltimore and got an appointment in New York after I had accepted the Baltimore job.

EE:How long did you stay in Baltimore?

ES:Oh gee, I can't remember, but quite some time.

EE:Were you in Baltimore when the war started?

ES:Pardon?

EE:Were you in Baltimore when the war started?

ES:I don't remember.

EE:Tell me how it was that you got involved in the--was that was the army 00:10:00dietitian group? How did you get involved in military service, being a dietitian?

ES:I can't remember a lot of this, it's been so long ago.

EE:Well, see, this is the thing, I think. I just know until somebody asks me a questions of things I don't think about or hadn't thought about in a while--Where was it that you spent your time? Now you were in Baltimore at the hospital, and then--

ES:I lived in the hospital.

EE:You actually lived--So this had almost like a dormitory? Was that a teaching hospital? They had room for nurses they were teaching?

ES:They don't do this much anymore. Over at UNCG it's--You go there, and I've forgotten what, but it's nothing like what I had. I had one year.

EE:Right. My mother went to Cabarrus in Concord. She went to Cabarrus Hospital 00:11:00to do her nurse's training. They just don't train nurses in the hospital like--Most of them, they go off to college and get nurse's training. But she actually went from high school and didn't go to a four-year college, but she went straight to nurse's school. Now, to be a dietitian, did you have to have a college degree?

ES:That's right, to be an accredited dietitian. And at the time I did it, you had to have a year's training. And as I say, there was a place in North Carolina but I did not want to go there.

EE:When the war started, how did you get--Your service with the army dietitian group, do you remember how that started?

ES:How did what?

EE:How did you get involved with the military service?

ES:I can't remember. [chuckling] This was a long, long time ago.

EE:Were you stationed here in North Carolina, do you remember?

ES:I joined the army, and I was at Fort Bragg for six weeks, and I was sent--Then I was sent to--I've forgotten. [pause] I went to Fort Bragg and 00:13:00stayed for six weeks, and then I was sent to--I think it was to Chattanooga [Tennessee], I'm not sure. But anyway I was there for only a very short time, and then I went--I joined the army and I was--Oh gee, I can't remember that. [chuckling]

EE:Well, now when you joined, you joined to offer your services as a dietitian?

ES:That's right.

EE:You weren't joining to go off with the Army Nurse Corps, you were joining as a--So do you remember if they were recruiting women as dietitians to join the army?

ES:They were taking them in the navy and the army, and I joined both, but I got an appointment at City Hospitals in Baltimore. And I stayed there, oh, for--I 00:14:00can't remember how long I stayed there. For quite some time, though.

EE:So you were in Baltimore as a civilian, and then after you joined and went to Fort Bragg and then went to Chattanooga, then you got assigned to Baltimore?

ES:After I left Baltimore I joined the army, and I guess I was sent to Chattanooga, I think. And it was an overseas unit, and I stayed in Chattanooga for a very brief time and then went overseas.

EE:Now where did you end up going overseas? Where did you go?

ES:Naples, Italy.

EE:Is that where they had a base? You were at the base in Naples?

ES:Yes, they did. I didn't know it at the time, but it was the Vanderbilt University [Nashville, Tennessee] unit, the 300th General Hospital.

EE:Do you remember what year this would have been? Probably '44 or '45? Was it late in the war, do you remember? If you were in Italy, it probably would not have been before '44. Or was it after the--

ES:Anyway, after I left that I joined the V.A. [Veterans Administration] and I worked in the hospitals in the V.A., and the last one I had was in Charleston.

EE:Charleston, South Carolina?

ES:Which was a new hospital.

EE:When you were in Naples, what were your duties? Do you remember if you were in charge of planning the meals for everybody?

ES:We were there only for patients. And Colonel Reyer was the head of the hospital.

EE:Do you remember how to spell his name?

ES:Three hundredth General. It was the Vanderbilt University.

EE:Right. Colonel Reyer's name, how do you spell Reyer? R-i-e-r?

ES:He was the administrator.

EE:Okay. Were there other women there?

ES:There was another dietitian. There were two of us. And there were nurses, of course. It was a big, big hospital.

EE:So there were lots of WACs [Women's Army Corps] and army nurses there?

ES:Pardon?

EE:Were there WACs there as well?

ES:No, there weren't. They were registered nurses. We had three thousand patients at one time. It was during the war.

EE:Was the kind of work you were doing different than the work you were doing before you joined the military, or was it about the same kind of work?

ES:We were there for patients only, but Colonel Reyer asked us to help him get things set up for the other people there, the nurses and enlisted men.

EE:How did you like working in the military? Was it a lot different? Did you like it or was it hard to take?

ES:Well, you knew you couldn't do anything else after you joined, so you did like it.

EE:That's right. [chuckling] Well, now when you joined, did you sign on for a year or how long? To the end of the war? How long was this tour of duty?

ES:We stayed there until the war was over.

EE:So you were in Naples until the war was over.

ES:Two-plus, I think, years.

EE:That would have been right. Forty-four or forty-five would have been right.

ES:I cannot remember when I got out, but I was there for two-plus years. I was there until the war was over.

EE:But now did you leave the military as soon as you left Naples, or did you have another assignment after that?

ES:I joined the V.A.

EE:Joined the V.A. So you went from Naples and working with--

ES:I stayed at home for a short time and then joined the V.A.

EE:A short time? You came back and then joined that. Okay. How did the other servicemen and military folks treat you as a woman and all the other women? What did you feel about how they treated the women--

ES:I'm sorry, I didn't understand.

ES:How did they treat the women over there? How did the military people treat the women? Did you get along okay?

ES:Very, very good.

EE:Very good. I guess you were a piece of home, in a sense, weren't you?

ES:There were two dietitians and there was a head nurse, who's no longer living, and a lot of nurses, of course, with three thousand patients. It didn't stay at 00:20:00three thousand, but this was when there was a great push to get the war over.

EE:Right. You joined the V.A., did you ever think about staying in the army? Did that ever cross--? You didn't? [chuckling]

ES:But I was in the V.A. and opened the new hospital in Charleston. I was in Memphis [Tennessee] and I was in--I was in the V.A. in Memphis, and then--I came home, I think, and they were opening the hospital in Charleston. And I thought 00:21:00it would be nice to be in Charleston, so I applied for a job there and got the job and opened the hospital. I was there when it opened, and stayed there for about six-plus--a little over six years.

EE:So how many years were you with the V.A. altogether?

ES:How many what?

EE:How many years were you with the V.A. altogether, twenty years?

ES:I went with the V.A. after the war and was in Memphis; I was in Thomasville, Georgia, and that hospital closed; and I was sent to the--I think it was the Kennedy V.A. Hospital. I stayed there for a short time and then came--I can't 00:22:00remember where I went from--I went to Kennedy V.A.--

EE:Did you go to Memphis right after that?

ES:And then I guess I came to Charleston. They were looking for a dietitian.

EE:Now is this when you went back to UNCG for your degree?

ES:Pardon?

EE:You said in the sixties you went back to UNCG for another degree. You went back to WC for--

ES:No, after I finished at UNCG I had a year at Pennsylvania Hospital.

EE:I'm talking about in the sixties. You said you had two degrees. Okay, so you only had one degree from WC?

ES:I did get a degree. I was in Cleveland working at the hospital, and it was connected with Grier Clinic. They were going to have a dietetic internship, and 00:23:00I didn't feel that I should be in charge of that so I left, without an advanced degree. I did have an advanced degree but not with dietetics. I left Cleveland and came back and went to graduate school over at UNCG.

EE:Okay. So this was after you were through with the V.A.? When you went to Cleveland, that was after you had been to Charleston already?

ES:After I left the V.A. I came home and didn't do anything for quite a while. Because the new hospital in Charleston had just opened, and I was there for six-plus years, and I was getting along [chuckling] in years so I needed to be 00:24:00at home.

EE:Did you go to Cleveland as part of your V.A. years?

ES:That's right.

EE:Okay, that was part of the--

ES:I was connected with Grier Clinic.

EE:So did the V.A. pay for you to go back to UNCG for your degree? Did the V.A. help you get your second degree?

ES:Did I do what?

EE:Well, you say you left Cleveland and came back and went to UNCG for that degree.

ES:After I left Cleveland, I came back and went to graduate school over at UNCG.

EE:Right. Were you still working for the V.A. when you went to graduate school?

ES:No.

EE:So you went to Cleveland after you left Charleston? Or did you go to 00:25:00Cleveland right after the war?

ES:See, the V.A. sent you here, there, and yonder, and you could turn it down or you could take it. And you didn't turn down too many things. So after I left Cleveland I decided it was time to do something else, and I came back and went to graduate school over here.

EE:Do you remember the hardest thing you had to do in Naples?

ES:I'm sorry?

EE:What was the hardest thing about that job in Naples?

ES:In Naples? I guess the fact that there was a war on.

EE:Did they ever try to bomb your hospital?

ES:Oh yes. Every night--The psychiatric ward was above our living quarters, and they emptied the--Oh, the Bay of Naples, because that's where they headed for. 00:26:00And the psychiatric ward was above our floor, and we always knew what was happening because the psychiatric ward checked out and you could hear them. We had ack-ack [anti-aircraft artillery] all around the hospital, as close as it could be, and we heard--We got up in the middle of the night and put on helmets and waited to see what was going to happen.

EE:So you were actually physically at risk.

ES:But they did drop a bomb behind the kitchen, and it was, oh, probably--It 00:27:00made an imprint as tall as this ceiling.

EE:That sounds pretty scary. It was a pretty scary time?

ES:Well, they tried to get us almost every night. But they didn't do it. [chuckling]

EE:Good. When you were at Fort Bragg, did they make you go through basic training?

ES:At Fort Bragg?

EE:Mm-hmm.

ES:I wasn't there long enough. I was there only about--just a few weeks because--

EE:Six weeks. So you didn't have to do a lot of boot camp kind of things?

ES:--they were trying to get dietitians overseas.

EE:As quickly as they could. Were you afraid when you were in Naples?

ES:There wasn't any use to be afraid because you had to go. We went on the 00:28:00Thomas H. Barry, a troop ship, and we were about seven days crossing, and we got--Submarines tried to follow us and tried to bomb us.

EE:So you were following a convoy, I guess, of battleships who were trying to keep submarines away from you?

ES:Well, I guess.

EE:So that might have been as scary as Naples, it sounds like, not knowing where the submarines were.

ES:But it was an experience, for sure.

EE:Now were most of the other dietitians, were they older than you, younger than you? What was the age of the people going over there?

ES:Dietitians what?

EE:Were most of the people going over there older than you, younger than you? What was the age of the people going over?

ES:I didn't know where I would go or with whom I would be. But there were two of us in the hospital, and another person for a short time, but there were only two of us.

EE:Were you able to have any kind of free time or social life when you were in Naples, or was it all work?

ES:Oh yes, we got five days off. I guess we were there two and a half years, and we would get five days off, and went to Sorrento [Italy] and--

EE:So five days every month? Is that it?

ES:No.

EE:How often?

ES:We had, I think, two five-day leaves.

EE:During that whole time?

ES:And we usually went to Sorrento and Capri and--

EE:Capri is beautiful, isn't it?

ES:Oh yes.

EE:I've been there. It had the bougainvillea on the hillside and--But it had a different view in the war. [chuckling]

ES:And we stayed in a beautiful hotel and had free meals.

EE:Did they have the tramway working to go up the hill, where you rode the little train up the hill?

ES:Mm-hmm.

EE:And they have the--what is it, the grotto, the Blue Grotto, on Capri? Yes.

ES:I went to the Blue Grotto.

EE:That's a special place. Well, now was the volcano blowing back then? In '44 didn't they have an eruption in Naples, the volcano?

ES:Pardon?

EE:Wasn't the volcano, Vesuvius, wasn't it acting up?

ES:Oh yeah. I have a big piece that I am going to get mounted. Vesuvius erupted, and a great big piece of Vesuvius fell on the outside of the tenth floor.

EE:Of the hospital? So you were there when it erupted. What was that like, to be near a volcano? You went through a lot in those two years. [chuckling]

ES:Oh yes, but you couldn't do anything about it, so you just--[chuckling]

EE:Was there an earthquake before it erupted, or how did that work?

ES:Nobody knew it was going to erupt, but it did. And there was a--Red Cross, I think, she was from Candor [North Carolina], and she was going somewhere and her plane had trouble and dropped in the volcano.

EE:Oh my! So she was killed? As if everything else wasn't bad enough, to have a volcano happen on top of a war! [chuckling]

ES:Well, you didn't think too much about what was going to happen to you, you know.

EE:You just did what you did.

ES:We flew to--Where did we go? We went to Salerno [Italy], and they sent planes and picked up anybody who wanted to go, mostly the women.

EE:There was so much happening. How did people take all that loss of life and injury?

ES:There wasn't much you could do about it.

EE:There's not much you could do, but I guess you still had to have time to cry, didn't you? Did people get emotional?

ES:We went to one of the cemeteries, and they were bringing people in and putting them in body bags and just--

EE:Didn't have time for a burial?

ES:Had burials right there. We happened to go to one of the big cemeteries when 00:33:00they were hauling them in. They just buried the body bags because there were so many people.

EE:These were all U.S. GIs?

ES:There were some Germans too, I think.

EE:So they just gave everybody a--

ES:And they were buried in one part of the cemetery and the GIs in another.

EE:That's tough. Did you keep in contact with other of your friends who were in the military?

ES:Pardon?

EE:Did you have other friends in the military that you kept in contact with? Did you write to other people?

ES:There are not many of the living. The other dietitian is living, with whom I worked for two-plus years.

EE:Where is she now?

ES:And she lives in Milwaukee, I think. It's not Milwaukee, it's a small town outside of Milwaukee. But she's still living.

EE:That's neat. So you keep up with her?

ES:I do. I still do. But she's about ninety, I think.

EE:But that kind of experience stays with you the rest of your life, doesn't it?

ES:Pardon?

EE:That experience stays with you the rest of your life, doesn't it?

ES:Oh yes.

EE:It's hard to see the world with the same set of eyes.

ES:But there wasn't anything you could do about it because I joined the army, so--

EE:Well, what did your family think about this? Were they afraid for you?

ES:My older sister didn't think much of it because she was a Guilford graduate and won a scholarship to Bryn Mawr. And Mother accepted it. My father had died right--

EE:Right before the war?

ES:Well, a couple of years before I joined the army.

EE:So your mom was worried, but she said, "You're a big girl, you take care of yourself"? [chuckling]

ES:Well, after I joined I wondered why I did, but I couldn't do anything about it, so--

EE:The reasons that people joined are a lot--Some people, they said they joined to free a man to fight. You know, in some of those ads for the WACs and the WAVES [Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service-Navy].

ES:Well, they wanted people, and you either joined or you--I don't know what else I would have done [chuckling] because everybody was joining.

EE:Everybody was joining in something.

ES:And I wrote Major Burns, who was head of the dietetic service in Washington and asked her about joining, and if I did would I be sent overseas. And her reply was they had enough people, enough dietitians to go overseas. And about, 00:36:00oh, four to six weeks later I got this assignment to go with the 300th General.

EE:So that was a big surprise. Did you feel like someone had pulled you around and couldn't do anything about it?

ES:You couldn't do anything. You had to go. [chuckling]

EE:So they told you they wouldn't need you overseas, and then six weeks later they say, "You're on a ship"?

ES:But everybody was joining the army. And one of the dietitians at City Hospital wrote me and asked me to come. They needed dietitians there because they were--oh, there were one, two, three, four--there were about five dietitians at City Hospital when I left. There weren't five when I left because a lot of them had done what I did, joined the army.

EE:You say everybody was joining. It was a very patriotic time, wasn't it?

ES:Everybody. You couldn't get help in the States. It was just horrible.

EE:Was there a shortage of dietitians in the States?

ES:Pardon?

EE:Was there a shortage of dietitians in the States?

ES:Oh yes, because a lot of the dietitians did what I did, they went with the army.

EE:Was the pay better, or was it just because of a patriotic duty that you said you needed to go?

ES:I think we got a little bit more, not that much.

EE:Not enough, right. Were people in the country worried that we might not win the war?

ES:Pardon?

EE:Were they afraid that we might not win the war?

ES:Were they what?

EE:Do you remember people being afraid that we might not win the war?

ES:Not too much. People just--you know, the war was on and nobody thought too much about it.

EE:It was just something that had to be done. You don't like it but you've got to go do it. I'm going to ask you a question which is probably an easy one, because I can tell you the answer is yes. Do you feel you contributed to the war effort?

ES:Do I feel what?

EE:That you contributed to the war effort.

ES:Did I contribute--?

EE:To the war. To the war effort.

ES:I did what was to do. [chuckling] I don't know whether you'd call it contributing or--

EE:Well, I think if you do what you're doing, and they're shooting ack-ack all around you and the volcano is blowing and you're--I think you did. I appreciate it.

ES:Well, the tenth floor was a beautiful view, and it was a beautiful view of Vesuvius when it erupted. But we had half of the hospital--The other half 00:39:00belonged to the Italians, and it was a TB [tuberculosis] hospital, but it was a tremendous hospital. Beautiful grounds.

EE:That's right. I think my grandfather died in a TB hospital. It's hard to believe, you know, just not very many years ago how widespread that was. TB sanitariums all over the place. You mentioned a few folks, did you ever meet Major Burns in person?

ES:After I came back and was in the V.A. hospital, I didn't meet her but I got a picture of her. She sent pictures of herself to all the V.A. hospitals.

EE:And Colonel Reyer, he was the person in charge of the hospital?

ES:I heard from Colonel Reyer as long as he lived. He and Mrs. Reyer sent me a picture. I still have it. He said, "This is how the old folks look now." [chuckling] But it was a good picture of the two of them.

EE:Were there some other people that you remember from your military experience?

ES:Other people?

EE:What are some other people that you remember?

ES:A lot of the people are not living. I do have war pictures. I don't know how many of them are living. I know the other dietitian is.

EE:The question we're asking everybody is what did they think of Franklin 00:41:00Roosevelt and Eleanor Roosevelt.

ES:What did they think of them?

EE:What did you think of the Roosevelts? Did you think they did a good job?

ES:We had a radio in our quarters and we listened to his speeches at night.

EE:They were important speeches.

ES:Well, it was interesting to know what was happening in the States.

EE:And that was through Armed Forces Radio that it went out and you got the word? What about Mrs. Roosevelt, what did you think of her? She was pretty--

ES:That happened after the war was over, I think, most of--No, it didn't. No, it didn't.

EE:Well, she was pretty active beforehand, going around the country, and I think she--

ES:That's right.

EE:Well, I think while her husband was busy with the war she pretty much made sure everybody was doing okay in the country.

ES:That's right. That's so long ago I can't remember a lot of it.

EE:Well, it has been a while. It has been a while. Do you remember where you were on VE [Victory in Europe] Day and what that was like?

ES:I was being shipped to the Pacific.

EE:You went to the Pacific?

ES:And the war was over and the ship was turned in to Boston.

EE:Oh, so you were leaving? They had closed down the hospital on VE Day--

ES:And being shipped to the Pacific because it wasn't over in the Pacific.

EE:But on VE Day they decided to route you to Boston instead, so you didn't go.

ES:The hospital was mostly empty.

EE:And what about VJ [Victory in Japan] Day?

ES:What about what?

EE:Was that VE Day or VJ Day?

ES:Well, I had orders to go to the Pacific, and the war was over and the ship was turned in to Boston.

EE:Okay, so when the war ended in Japan, they said "We don't need you." So you were at the hospital in May of '45 when VE Day happened?

ES:No, I was on the ship to the Pacific.

EE:And then when VJ Day happened, where were you? Were you in Boston?

ES:VE Day happened when I was being shipped to the Pacific and the war was over.

EE:Right. What about VJ Day, when the victory over Japan came after they'd dropped the bomb? Where were you then, when MacArthur signed the treaty on the Missouri?

ES:I hadn't gone anywhere.

EE:So you were still in Boston? Okay. How do you think your life has been different because of your time in the military?

ES:It's hard to know what--

EE:It's hard to know about anything, but how has your life been different because of--.it sounds like you have had some lifelong friends because of your military time.

ES:I don't know how many of the people are living who were in the hospital, the nurses and the--A lot of the people have died. The Catholic priest died about three years ago, three or four. The other dietitian was a Catholic, and I went to Father O'Donnell's church because the other minister, who was not Catholic--I 00:45:00shouldn't say this, but I was not enamored of him.

EE:Personalities do count. [chuckling]

ES:So I went to the Catholic church with the other dietitian.

EE:If you had to, would you do it over again?

ES:Probably, I would.

EE:Well, now it sounds like you were pretty independent before joining the military. A lot of people have said that joining the military made them more independent, but it sounds like you were a pretty independent person.

ES:I was ready to leave it when the war was over.

EE:But you sound like you were a pretty independent person, like going off to Pennsylvania and traveling to Baltimore. You were already an independent woman before the military, before you joined the military, weren't you?

ES:You couldn't get help in the States. Everybody was going to join and did what I did.

EE:Do you consider yourself a pioneer for women in the military? Were you a trailblazer? A lot of times people say--

ES:I would have liked to have gone in the WAVES.

EE:Would you?

ES:After I--

[End Side A--Begin Side B]

ES:--taking dietitians when I joined. I joined the army and the navy, and after I--When they were not taking dietitians, I went with the army. And right after I went to Chattanooga to go overseas, I got the message that they were taking 00:47:00dietitians. But I couldn't leave the army then.

EE:Well, now why did you want to join the WAVES? Some people have said the WAVES had the best-looking uniform and that got a lot of women to join.

ES:They did have good-looking uniforms. I don't know why I just joined the army and the navy. And I got the message when I was on my way overseas that they were taking dietitians, but I couldn't do anything about it except tell them I was already in the army.

EE:A lot of people have said that the women who joined the military back in World War II, that those women were really the start of the women's lib[eration] movement.

ES:The women what?

EE:The women's lib movement. Really, that's the first "Women's Libbers," was the 00:48:00women who actually went out there and showed the military that women had a role to play that was as important as the men's role. Do you consider yourself a women's libber, part of the women's movement?

ES:No, not really. Dr. Anna M. Gove, who was the--she was in World War I.

EE:She was a pioneer, wasn't she? [chuckling]

ES:But she was an unusual person. My sister lived with her when she taught over at UNCG.

EE:You were there in a hospital in a military environment. Today, I think just 00:49:00in Iraq just three months ago, they had for the first time women flying airplanes in military combat. What do you think of that? Do you think women ought to be allowed to be in combat?

ES:I don't know.

EE:It sort of depends on the individual woman, I would guess.

ES:I wouldn't want to do it.

EE:You were close enough. [chuckling] I know my dad, every time he hears "Begin the Beguine," he gets misty-eyed. Are there some favorite songs or movies, things from that time period that mean something special to you? What are some of those?

ES:I don't really know.

EE:It's interesting to hear the things that people remember, whether it's "Stardust" or "Don't Sit Under the Apple Tree," or--

ES:I remember that, but that was about the time the war was over that that was popular.

EE:Are there any other people around here that you know of who were in the military that we can contact?

ES:Are there what?

EE:Are there any other people that you know of who were in the military around here at the time that you were in that we can contact?

ES:For quite a while, as long as the head nurse lived, we got updates of all the nurses. But after she died, that stopped.

EE:She died two years ago, you said?

ES:Pardon?

EE:She died two years ago?

ES:No, it was longer than that.

EE:Is there anything else that you can think of about the time period that we're talking about that you'd like to share with us?

ES:No, I can't think of anything. The things I remember are the bombs coming into the Bay of Naples at night to try to get what they could get of ships. The ships put out to sea at night every night in the Bay of Naples because they bombed the Bay of Naples. But they went out to sea at night, so they did not get any ships that I know of that were parked in the Bay of Naples.

EE:You say you've got some photographs or some--

ES:Do I have any what?

EE:Do you have any photographs or those old--You say you have some things from when the bomb was there?

ES:I think I do. I haven't looked at them in a long time.

EE:Well, I would just encourage you, because you live all of about three blocks from UNCG. We're going to be doing this for another six months or so at least.

ES:I was going to give UNCG a--I think the 300th General Award something. I have not looked at it for a while.

EE:Okay. Well, just take a look at that, and if there's something that you don't want to give to us but maybe we could just borrow to make a copy of it we'd love to do that. Because it sounds like you've got some really interesting stuff.

ES:I don't know what's on that award. I didn't know whether it would be--I gave all my uniforms--When I was going to the Pacific, I just dumped all my uniforms I had left. I didn't keep any of them.

[interview interrupted]

EE:Well, I think that's all we need today for our interview, and I just want to say thank you for the university and--

ES:Well, I don't know how good it was.

EE:Well, the thing is, you see, I think what happens is that you can't remember from specific questions, but the more we talked, you gave me a lot of information about the Naples experience, which is really--Most of the women that we interview have not been in a combat environment. And although you weren't at the front, you were in a combat environment because y'all were attacked every night.

ES:We were over there for about two-plus years.

EE:Right. Well, as you look through the stuff or there's some other things that you think of, just let us know.

ES:What?

EE:I say, as you're looking through your photographs and other things, if you think of something else, I think the number is on that brochure, just call us. We'd love to talk some more.

ES:Okay. I sent in to the women's thing in Washington, I sent in a brief--They sent the things that they wanted filled out, and I did that and told them where I was and how long I was there, and whatever else they asked.

EE:Good. Well, I'm going to be going to Washington probably at the end of April, going to interview a General Bailey who was in the WACs. And she actually started after World War II, but she ended up becoming a brigadier general in the WACs. She's a WC grad and she's already made us some connections with folks. There's a women veterans' memorial that they've gotten together a fund for. So there should be some good--

ES:They sent that to all the veterans, I think, because I got one and I filled it out and returned it with a contribution.

EE:And what we are going to be doing, we've been getting our list from folks who 00:55:00were WC grads, but we'll be looking at that list too. Well, good. Well, again, thank you very much.

[End of Interview]