Oral history interview with Dorothy H. Jordan, 1999

WOMEN VETERANS HISTORICAL PROJECT

ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION

INTERVIEWEE:Dorothy H. Jordan

INTERVIEWER:Eric Elliott

DATE:May 3, 1999

Note: Loretta Jameson, Dorothy Jordan's sister, was also present during the interview.

[Begin Interview]

EE:Well, today is May--What is today, the third?

DJ:The third.

EE:May 3. Time is moving on, but it's a beautiful day in Greensboro, North Carolina. My name is Eric Elliott and I am with the University of North Carolina at Greensboro [UNCG], and I'm in the home this morning of Dorothy Jordan. And I want to say thank you, Miss Jordan, and her sister [Loretta] who's here with us today, for doing this interview. This is part of the Women Veterans Historical Project at the university. Miss Jordan, the questions I'm going to ask today hopefully won't be too difficult. We have one of our toughest ones, however, right at first, and that is: Where were you born and where did you grow up?

DJ:[chuckling] I was born in Bronx, New York City, and I grew up there. That's where I enlisted from.

EE:Did you have any brothers and sisters?

DJ:I had two brothers and two sisters.

EE:Were you right in the middle, beginning--?

DJ:I was the third. Yes, the third. No, the fourth. I'm sorry. The fourth.

EE:[chuckling] Somebody is going to be out of place there.

DJ:No, Loretta is the fifth and I was the fourth, that's right.

EE:Great. What did your parents do?

DJ:Well, my father was--he was a taxi driver mainly, and my mother was a homemaker. We were just--what do I say, a Depression family, a beautiful family life.

EE:Great. And both of them were from the city?

DJ:Well, my mother no, she was from upstate New York.

EE:And you say you graduated from high school there in the Bronx, as well?

DJ:I graduated from George Washington High School.

EE:Were you somebody who liked school?

DJ:No, not particularly.

EE:[chuckling] An honest answer.

DJ:I liked sports more than school. [chuckling]

EE:Were there opportunities for women to play sports then?

DJ:Oh, yes. I played softball. I played semi-pro.

EE:Was it a school team?

DJ:No, I played with a semi-pro softball team.

EE:Was this during your high school years?

DJ:During high school, yes, mainly, when I was about fifteen, sixteen, seventeen. I played down at Madison Square Garden even. [chuckling]

EE:Wonderful. And when you say semi-pro, that means they covered your--

DJ:Well, they covered your expenses, yeah.

EE:They fed you and that's about it?

DJ:Yeah, that was it, that was it.

EE:Didn't give you any spending money, but fed you and put a uniform on you.

DJ:That was it. They did have professional women in the softball league, but we were second--the minor team, so to speak. We just got our carfare and all. [chuckling]

EE:Is that something you thought about maybe doing longer-term, or just--

DJ:Well, yes, I originally wanted to be a physical education teacher and go to college, but my schooling wasn't that good. I had a rich uncle who would have put me through but my schooling was poor, and then the war came along. See, I graduated when, '41? Yeah. It took me five years to get through high school, due to my absenteeism. [chuckling]

EE:Okay. Was high school in New York State at that time eleven years or twelve years.

DJ:No, it was four years, what we called four years.

EE:Four years. But when I say high school, you had twelve years of school total?

DJ:Eight grammar and four high, so that was twelve years.

EE:Right. In North Carolina we were a little slow, we only had eleven years up to the late '30s. So that's the reason I ask.

DJ:Oh, you only had eleven? Oh, I see. No, we went to the eighth grade in grammar school and then the four years in high school.

EE:What was it that you did when you graduated from school?

DJ:Well, I kind of floundered around. I worked in the A&P [grocery store chain] for a while and then I became a playground director, which I enjoyed because that was with sports. I was just more or less replacing some workers that went into the service, male or female, whomever it may be. I was just probationary, really, and that's what I went into the service from, the playground.

EE:So you did the playground from, say, maybe fall of '42 to '44?

DJ:Yeah, I would say so. Well, maybe not that long, but that's approximate enough--you know, '42 to '44. I just floundered, as I say. I worked the A&P, I worked the bank note [foreign exchange office of a local bank]--I think the bank note was first and then I went into the A&P. So, you know, from '41 to '44, in three years, then I took the playground [director job]. I really was unsettled. That was my whole trouble.

EE:Were you still living at home?

DJ:Oh yes, oh yes.

EE:What's the bank note?

DJ:They made foreign money. They made Chinese money from--

EE:Oh, exchange, currency exchange?

DJ:Yes.

EE:Do you remember where you were--Well, let me ask you a question. You're in high school in the city, there's a lot going on. During your high school days, Mr. [Adolf] Hitler comes to power in Europe. Do you have any clue about what's going on in Europe when you're in high school? Most teenagers don't really think about the world.

DJ:I had a German grandma, Grossmutter Jordan, and she used to say, "Ach! That man, he's bad! He's bad!" So that was the only thing we knew--That was our only tie or association or knowledge of it. I think everybody knew Hitler was cruel and it was wrong, but I don't think anyone thought we were going to get into the war.

EE:Right, it was their problem.

DJ:Now Pearl Harbor, we had gone to a church. We happen to be Roman Catholic and we were at a novena, and we came out of church on the Sunday afternoon, and everybody was all around and everything and we didn't know what happened. And then somebody said, "Oh, you don't know what happened?" And that was Pearl Harbor. Well, then that changed the whole situation in everybody's lives, I don't care what you say.

EE:Everybody knew that day that we were in a fight.

DJ:Everybody knew that day that that was it.

EE:Did you know where Pearl Harbor was?

DJ:At the time? I don't really know to tell you if I did. I guess so. But I've been there. I've been there and I've seen it. And the Japanese come with their cameras and all. We've been there. We went to Pearl Harbor to see it. And it's something to see, it really is.

EE:Out on the [USS] Arizona?

DJ:Yeah, the Arizona, we went out to that. We were very patriotic. I had a brother that went into the service right away, my one brother. My other brother was in a religious order and he didn't go in, but my one brother and my other sister's husband was in the service right from '42 on. We were very patriotic. I mean, we loved the country.

EE:You know, that's one of the things, I think, that people look back and wish we were more patriotic these days.

DJ:Oh yes.

EE:And yet I'm wondering, were people also afraid? Was there any fear in the air? Did you ever doubt we were going to win, or just didn't know whether it was going take long?

DJ:No, I don't think--But the rationing. Of course you had the rationing, you know, severe rationing and all, and you just went along with what--You tried to do everything for the war effort. You crushed your cans and you turned your fat in and everything else. You did just what the government asked you to do because you respected them and you knew that it had to be.

EE:And the black market wasn't a problem in your neighborhood?

DJ:What?

EE:The black market for things wasn't a problem?

DJ:No, I don't think so. I don't believe so. Loretta, do you think?

LJ:No.

DJ:No, not really. We went along with the gas rationing. I didn't drive at the time. You know, all the gas rationing and your tickets that you had in the grocery store and all, you just went along with it. You got your books and--But see, when I went in the service I didn't have the rationing. I was getting nylons, I was giving them to my sisters.

EE:Some people have told me that that factored into maybe--they decided it [the service] wasn't a bad place to be.

DJ:Well, it wasn't my purpose of going in, but it's true. I mean, we didn't have rationing. But my family did, my sisters and--

EE:You told me before we started this interview that you really were looking to join the New York police force. Tell me about that.

DJ:Well, when I heard that they had policewomen, which I didn't know--I read a book by Mary Sullivan, who was the head of the police department in New York, and it very well fascinated me and I thought, "Oh, that's what I would love to do." I'm a good-sized woman and I always felt that I maybe could help delinquents that go astray or what have you, and I felt that maybe that was my calling, because I really was so unsettled. So that's when I started to pursue that. But then I did meet and I had an interview with Mrs. Sullivan, and she was the one that told me--Because that's the way I was, I was pushing when I thought I wanted something. And I wrote to her and I asked for an interview. She lived down in Greenwich Village in New York, and I met her, I went down to her home. And I revere that interview very much. She told me then that they would not be 00:10:00taking women in because of the war effort, and they felt that most of the eligible women were going into service. So she said, "If I were you, Dorothy, I would pursue something else or do something." And then I found out that the WACs [Women's Army Corps] had MPs [Military Police]. I didn't know anything about the WAVES [Women Accepted for Volunteer Emergency Service] or the Marines or anything else, but I just happened to see a brochure or something, an advertisement on WAC MPs, and I said, "Well, that's what I want to do." And that's when I decided--

EE:So when you went down to the recruiting office you specifically said, "I want to do this"?

DJ:Well, you ask but you don't--My dear man, you didn't get what you asked for. [chuckling] I was assigned cooks and bakers when I got in service, but that's another story.

EE:Military efficiency, I guess, yes.

DJ:That's a good story, that one.

EE:Well, tell me, how did your family feel about you joining the service?

DJ:Well, the only thing was my mother. As I say at the time, she told me, because I was a homebody even though I was twenty-two and I never--In those times you were pure innocence, most people. I don't care if you lived in New York or you lived in Kalamazoo, you were morally good and all. And she told me, "You know, Dorothy, you've never been away from home. If you get homesick, you can't just up and go." "Oh no, Mama, I know that. Oh, I won't, I won't." I was homesick many a time but I never gave into it. You know, it's true, you don't lose your home.

EE:But your father wasn't as opposed to it maybe as your mother?

DJ:No, my father was the old-fashioned type father. Mothers did for the children. Father was there, he provided for the family. And my father was a good provider. We never starved. We had good big meals, we all were big strong healthy children. But Mama was the one that was the family. She took care of the kids and everything else. My father was the type, you didn't kiss him, you kissed my mother goodnight.

EE:Yeah, that's women's stuff.

DJ:Yeah, but he knelt down and said his prayers every night of his life. That's the kind of man he was. No, I didn't even approach him as much as I had my mother, as far as going in the service.

EE:At twenty-two you didn't have to have their signature.

DJ:No, I didn't, I didn't, but I respected them, see.

EE:That's good.

DJ:But there's a story to my getting in the service, too. [chuckling]

EE:All right, that's what I'm here for. Tell me.

DJ:Well, when I went down for my examination, my entrance into the military, I was five pounds overweight. Now as I'm telling this, and as God is my judge, it's a true story. I don't lie about anything, because it sounds like it could be a good big lie. But I was five pounds overweight and they rejected me. And I went home and I went in the door and I ran into my room, and I laid on my bed and I'm bawling and bawling. My mother came in very gingerly, "Dorothy, what's the matter?" "I was rejected!" "Oh, why?" I said, "I'm five pounds overweight." Because I was always sort of a big woman. "Oh," she says, "I thought maybe you had cancer or something." [chuckling] You know, she really thought I--So I had a friend. I had a very athletic friend, Betty Gallagher, and I told Betty about it. Betty couldn't go into service because she worked for the Brooklyn Navy Yard and her job was frozen. She said, "Dottie, we'll get that weight off of you." So she took me down to this hotel, the Central Hotel down in New York, that had a pool, and oh, she worked me out and everything. And within a week or so she said, "I think you've lost your weight. Go back down and tell them you want to go in again." So I went back down. I asked for, naturally, another interview and so forth, and I went down, and they had already put me in on waiver. They waived the five pounds because my other qualifications met their qualifications. But I had ironically lost the five pounds, which of course was to my satisfaction. And I really didn't want to go in on a waiver. I asked them if that would in any way hinder my service.

EE:You didn't want a mark on your record.

DJ:Yeah, but they said no, it wouldn't, it was just the fact that they waived the extra weight. See, because when you went in you had to be a certain height, you had to be a certain weight to your height, blah, blah, blah, and that's how come I was the five pounds over. So that's how I got in the service, and that's what my story was on that. And I was thrilled to death. I couldn't wait till I 00:15:00got home. In fact, the twenty-second of January when I enlisted happened to be my mother's birthday. That was my enlistment date. I have it here on my papers, my honorable discharge papers. But I didn't then go for my orders till the fourth of February, that was really when I had my term in service.

EE:Where did you do your basic training?

DJ:Well, I had my basic training at Fort Oglethorpe, Georgia. That was a WAC training center. I think it was the Fourth--

EE:Was that your first long train trip?

DJ:Yes, it probably was. Yeah, I don't remember ever--And in fact, they took you to Ohio on a troop train and you didn't know where you were going. Loretta went down with me to wave goodbye to me, and I said, "I don't know where I'm going." You could have gone to Daytona Beach, [Florida], up in Massachusetts to Fort Devon and WAC training--I think there was only three, I'm not too sure right now, but anyway I didn't know. I told her I didn't know where I was going. And they took you to Ohio and then you went down and you hit Chattanooga, Tennessee, and then they took you by the army trucks into Fort Oglethorpe, which is just down south of Chattanooga. Chattanooga was our city there.

EE:That was your point where you hopped off.

DJ:Yeah.

EE:And I guess that's a long way to get to a long way away. Did you have a chance to meet some of the other women, I guess, on the way down and start making friendships, or how was that for you?

DJ:[chuckling] You don't want to hear that story. There was one girl on the troop train and she was a crap shark and she got us into playing craps with her in the corner. No, I didn't meet anybody truthfully, God's truth, as far as that goes. No, there was one girl that attached to me and I wasn't very fond of her. But no, I didn't really meet anyone then. I've had beautiful friendships with my WAC buddies, but no, not on the train, I didn't. I think we were all just all hepped up. We were all just new rookies, you know, and didn't know from nothing, and we didn't know what we were going to do or where we were going. But the corporal, Drewett, from the reception--Of course, you go to reception and you're there for about a week and they process you and give you uniforms and such. Well, Drewett and I became very good friends, and I kept in contact with her all the years. We went out to see her, Loretta and I, in Fort Wayne, Indiana. She has since passed away but she was one of my buddies.

EE:Of all the services, probably the WACs had it toughest to begin with getting acceptance, because I think they were the first. And when Colonel [Oveta] Hobby started it, there was almost immediately a slur campaign against the WACs from within the army as it came out.

DJ:Oh yes, definitely.

EE:And some not nice things were said about the kind of women that were going into the WACs.

DJ:Definitely.

EE:Had you heard about that? Were you warned about that?

DJ:Well, that's a story in itself for me. Because, you know, being in the WAC MPs, which of course I wasn't at the beginning, I went through reception and then through basic training with the WAC company, and of course everybody knew I wanted to be a WAC MP. Everybody knew it. In basic training I had a group with me that were young girls and athletic girls. We played softball together, we played basketball. We had a young cadre. We had two or three young WAC officers that were--They were disciplinarians but yet they were friendly with you, you know, and treated you like an equal. I had a beautiful WAC basic training, but as I say, I still wanted to be the WAC MP, and everybody knew it, even the officers all knew it. So how I got into the WAC MPs, I was assigned basic. From basic I went to staging. You go to a staging area, and in staging I was to be assigned cooks and bakers. And I'm not fooling about that, and of course I would have been very, very disappointed. But ironically, in the WAC MPs they found one girl to be a lesbian and they ousted her, and as a result there was an opening. Lieutenant Hubbinger at the time, and Captain Snyder, too, they were 00:20:00both--Captain Snyder was the provost marshal. She spoke to a staging officer and said, "Gee, I'm shy one girl." And they said, "Oh, there's a girl here that really wants to be a WAC MP." That's the truth! This is how my life has been. And as a result, Captain Snyder asked for an interview with me, and through the interview--

EE:Which just goes to show, don't be shy about asking for what you want.

DJ:Oh, I'm not shy when I want something, believe me. [chuckling]

EE:Good.

DJ:And that's how--the God's truth of how--I became a WAC MP. I just told her. I said, "This is what I want to do, and I know I can do the job." And as a result, that's what I--She said, "Well, I'll give you a try. Your earnestness in itself--" And then, boy, when I went in the WAC MPs, these gals that saw me, "Gee, we didn't know what to expect, you know, somebody like you coming in." But we all became good friends. I had beautiful friendships in there. My one army buddy that I treasured dearly, and she has since passed away, too, I mean we were like sisters. I myself never had any tendency for--I was tomboyish, yes, but I wasn't of the lesbian nature, let's put it that way, and most of the girls that I knew weren't. But we did have, and they got rid of them. They knew who they were right from the PX [post exchange]. They'd meet in the PX. Lieutenant Hubbinger, who became provost marshal after Captain Snyder got transferred, I guess--I don't know where Snyder went, but Lieutenant [Hubbinger], she knew who were and which was, and boy she got them out. And it's true, it was too bad for the fact that the WACs did have that kind of a reputation.

And then the men that were in there, they thought that all you were in [for] was to give them pleasure. And you had to tell them off any number of times. Because down in Fort Oglethorpe where I was, we were, I'd say four girls, five girls even to one guy, because the women population was the greatest. And the men, well, I don't know what the men actually did down there. They had some male MPs naturally, and they had other things, but they were in the minority.

EE:Fort Oglethorpe was mainly a training facility for WACs.

DJ:It was training for the WAC.

EE:Most of the people who were teaching you were women?

DJ:Oh yes. Oh, that's right, Fort Des Moines, [Iowa], was the other training center, and at the beginning, of course, the WAAC [Women's Auxiliary Army Corps] --they had men. They didn't have the women, because they didn't start the officer training until after that.

EE:I talked to a woman last week who was at Fort Des Moines.

DJ:I wasn't in the WAAC. That didn't last.

EE:It was about a year.

DJ:That was just auxiliary, just about a year. You know it was just to get them in.

EE:Right. Tell me about what a typical day at basic was like for you, because everybody has different experiences. You were in a group barracks situation? This is probably your first time living with a lot of different people.

DJ:Oh yes.

EE:You had never had the dormitory experience?

DJ:No, no. But it was just something that--It was such a pleasure when you think of it, and I mean you think of it after, but you know here were all women from different types of life and different areas and what have you, and yet they blended together. You could walk around nude and nobody was looking at you, and you didn't think about it. Some people were modest and you wouldn't--you know, you'd put a towel on--but some people didn't care. And it didn't matter. No, our WAC MP--You see, in the WAC MP we worked three different shifts. So we were the type group that you didn't have the opportunity to socialize with the same people because of the fact, well, your shift may be 3:00 to 11:00 or 11:00 to 7:00, see, or 7:00 to 3:00. They were the shifts. And we worked town, we did town duty and we did--In fact, we had a guardhouse down there in Oglethorpe and they brought AWOLs [absent without leaves] in. They assigned me to the guardhouse, and they used to call me "Warden Jordan." Lieutenant Hubbinger dubbed me as "Warden Jordan." We had girls from all over. If they had been AWOL or they were insubordinate to an officer or a noncom [noncommissioned officer] or something, they had to do time in the guardhouse.

EE:You're the first MP I've talked with, so let me see if I can understand your training. You were at basic for about what, six to eight weeks?

DJ:I guess so, yeah.

EE:Somewhere in there? And then unlike some specialty schools, you were trained for an MP right there at Oglethorpe? You didn't go someplace else?

DJ:Yeah, but I worked MP for about three, four months before they had a school.

EE:Before getting trained, right.

DJ:Before we had a school. I trained right on the job.

EE:So they just said, "We need somebody"?

DJ:Yeah, I trained right on the job. And of course mainly what we did, we did our post. You know, we worked all the outposts, but you'd work 11:00 to 7:00, you know, and it wasn't an easy task. And we worked town patrol. We went right into Chattanooga to the police station and we worked out of the police station. Not the police station, I think it was the courthouse. We had an office there. We'd have the contingent of who was working that night, you know, maybe three--You'd have four girls because you had two patrols. You went out in double patrols. You put your brassard on. Brassard, is that what they call it? I think so.

EE:That's your sleeve insignia, the MP.

DJ:Yeah, the sleeve MP, yeah. We used to take it off and go to the movie. [laughter]

EE:If it was a light night you'd just go to the movies?

DJ:I came out of the movie one night and I put on the brassard. We were walking along and a guy comes along and says, "Hey, MP, you got your brassard upside-down." And I looked, and sure enough it was upside-down. [chuckling] But we had fun. No, I have nothing but pleasant, pleasant memories. I mean, I have a lot of experiences that I could tell you about because they're just still vivid in my mind.

EE:Did you end up having the school at Fort Oglethorpe when it got started?

DJ:I don't know who conducted the school, that I can't remember, but it was just to military police policies.

EE:It wasn't Captain Hubbinger?

DJ:Was it Lieutenant Hubbinger? I guess maybe she did. As the provost marshal she probably did. She was a sweetheart.

EE:How many other women were in that school?

DJ:Well, I've got a picture of it. There's a whole group. I think most of them--This is the picture. No, this is of basic training. Oh, there's the MP. See that?

EE:This was January of '45 when you finished. So time-wise, if you went in in February of '44, you were actually doing that on the job for some time. How long was this, two months, I guess, this whole thing?

DJ:Probably. I don't really remember. That's me holding the flag up there. And that's Captain Mann, and oh, I forget her name, these names. She then was the provost. See, Lieutenant Hubbinger had already left. But it just may tell you down here who the--

EE:[reading] "Gladys, the Chick, captain commander." That's her?

DJ:No, this is Chick.

EE:Right in the middle, okay.

DJ:Yeah, Gladys Chick. And that's me, and I know that. And this one, too, these two, but I was not very fond of those. I don't know, they were really legal as much as military police. They were on the legal aspect of--you know, the military aspect. Now this gal up here is Warren. She came from North Carolina. I don't think she ever had shoes on until she went in the service. [chuckling] But she was a good guy. In fact, as I say, there aren't any that I could say I didn't get along with.

EE:Well, that's great, that's great.

DJ:I'll be glad to give you these pictures, you see?

EE:Sure, we'd love to have that. When you were doing this work in the city--Have you been to Chattanooga recently? They've changed that a lot.

DJ:Oh, yeah!

EE:It's beautiful downtown.

DJ:Oh, we've been. I've got a picture of the south post. Oh, yes.

EE:It's perfect when you go from "Chattanooga Choo-Choo" Train Station, take a little trolley down into the--

DJ:Do you know everything is free there, the transportation?

EE:It's great. I took the family.

DJ:And have you gone to the movie there?

EE:Yeah, the big IMAX [theatre]. It's great.

DJ:We saw the two shows, Loretta. Steve was with us.

EE:Did you say that you worked with the--You went down to the courthouse, worked, I guess, with the police. You all probably hung out and went to the same section of town, wherever the nightclubs or bars would be?

DJ:The Silver Dollar and all the clubs, and we had to walk in. If you saw a WAC that looked like she had a little too much to drink, you went up to her and you told her, "Honey, I think you better take the next bus home. Because if I see you here again when I make my next rounds, you won't be here." And that's how you talked to them, you know, "Honey" and "Hon."

EE:So you were going to check on the women?

DJ:We checked on only women. No, only women.

EE:Well, was there other male MPs going around, because--

DJ:No, the men had nothing to do with us.

EE:But I mean for the men who were stationed at Fort Oglethorpe, did they have their own MP group that was going out and doing the same thing?

DJ:Yeah, there were male MPs, too, but not in our--

EE:Did you work together?

DJ:No, no, we were a separate group.

EE:So they didn't call you up and say, "By the way, there's three WACs that need a little drive home"?

DJ:Well, if they did then we would take care of them, anything that pertained to the WACs. And the same thing, and I don't know if you want to put it in, but the same thing was--You know, what the government sometimes does and what they did, they sent black WACs down to Oglethorpe for staging and such, and when they got on a bus, and they lived in the north, and the bus driver would say to them, "WAC, you can't sit in the front of the bus, you've got to go to the back." "I'm in the army, I'm not going to get in the back." Well, then you'd have to go and tell them, explain to them that, "Well, this is the South you're living in now. You have to live by southern rules. Either get in the back of the bus or off the bus."

EE:Were there black women integrated with you at Oglethorpe, or were they in separate quarters?

DJ:No, we had no blacks. But these were the ones who would come down for staging to go overseas. See, we had a staging area there that was strictly for overseas. I think it was called staging, yet I don't know, there's another name, I think. And they had German prisoners over there, too. I don't think it was staging. It was another name for overseas training. Because staging was actually where from basic training you went to be reassigned anyplace where they wanted to send you. I was the only one from my basic company that stayed at Oglethorpe, and you can see it was a large group. This first picture is of--No, that's the WAC, that's the WAC MPs, which I like the best. No, that isn't, is it?

EE:No, that's the big group.

DJ:Yeah, this is my--

EE:So you were the only one out of all that group that stayed at Oglethorpe.

DJ:Out of all that group, see? And there again I'm up here. Here I am. [chuckling]

EE:Right. That's a lot of folks in the company.

DJ:There's a picture of the WAC museum that they may want.

EE:Okay. I'll probably end up needing to go through and just look through that with you after we finish.

DJ:Okay, yeah, I know you will.

EE:Let me finish getting some of these questions, because I want to find out--You were at Oglethorpe and you graduated in January of '45. Did you stay at Oglethorpe afterwards? Where was your assignment?

DJ:I stayed, yeah. For the WAC MPs you mean?

EE:Yes.

DJ:Okay. Then when they closed Oglethorpe, which they did--In '45 you had VE [Victory in Europe] Day--

EE:May of '45.

DJ:Yeah, '45 was VE Day, and they weren't keeping all the training centers open. And Oglethorpe was one that got the ax, so they were weeding out all departments, all personnel at Oglethorpe. My army buddy Wolsey, she stayed down there to be with the--She was a mail clerk and they were the last to leave, but we left--They disbanded the WAC MPs, and then my troubles sort of began because then I was shifted here and shifted there. They didn't know where to put [me]. They sent a lot of the WAC MPs and assigned them to MP duties right away, the sergeants. There were sergeants and corporals. I happened to be a PFC [private first class], and they put me up--I had to go to Fort Des Moines for reassignment. That's where I was, and don't ask me for how long because I don't know how long I was there.

EE:It wasn't that long?

DJ:Pardon me?

EE:It sounds like it wasn't that long.

DJ:Not long. No, not that long, true. But it seemed that two WACs were talking together, and one was from Camp McCoy [near Sparta], Wisconsin, and she said, oh, she wanted to start a WAC MP attachment up there, a detachment. And this one said, "Oh, well, there's a WAC MP down at Fort Des Moines. If you want her, we'll assign her up to you." So I went up to Camp McCoy, Wisconsin, and I was 00:35:00there with--Really, that part of my service is sort of clouded because--I don't know, I was there with--There was just one barracks of WACs and some men in Barracks 2. I don't know what they were planning on doing, but they didn't need a WAC MP, that's for sure, and when I got up there she said no. So then they sent me down to Battle Creek, Michigan, to Percy Jones General Hospital. That was a hospital unit down there, and they said they needed a WAC MP down there. Well, when I got down to there, I went with this other girl, she was a corporal--Now this is a story, and this again is true. Elliott was her name. Elliott.

EE:Yes? [chuckling]

DJ:She was from Alabama. She was a driver, a staff car driver, and I was a WAC MP. I did MP work, she only drove the staff car for the WAC MPs. But when we were assigned the two of us to Battle Creek, Michigan, we were given a cadre room and everything by ourselves. And Elliott was a very embittered Southern woman, she really was. She was one that I have to say that I never endeared myself nor she to me. And we had to work for a while downtown, and she'd say to me, "Well, Jordan, what do you do?" And I'd say very sarcastically to her, "Elliott, you're the corporal, it's what you want to do." Because she was trying to fake everything. She didn't know MP work, and she wouldn't admit it to the captain, nor would she admit it--We went down and we worked with a policewoman, which to me was an excellent opportunity, and I liked the policewoman. I was very fond of her and she of me. Later on she had me for dinner and so forth.

It got to a point where Elliott and I could not work together, and I told Elliott, "Now, Elliott, I'm going in to the captain," I can't remember her name. I said, "But I'm going in to the captain tomorrow first thing and I'm telling her that we two can't work together." Because what was happening, we were trying to be social together, too. We'd go to a movie, and if a black sat near us, it was "nigger," "nigger this--" And I'd say, "Elliott, you're up north now, you have to do what the northerners do." But she, as I say, was a very embittered woman all the way. So I told her I was going in to the captain the first thing in the morning and telling her, "I don't care if I got a court martial or what, but I could not work with you and I will not work with you." So I said, "But I'll give you the privilege, because you're corporal"--I always threw that at her--"to go in first." And she went in first, and then I went in and I told the officer. She said, "Yes, I realize that it's an impossibility." And I said, "Well, this woman is not an MP, she doesn't know MP work, she's a staff car driver." She says, "I realize that. We're going to assign her to Fort Sheridan," in Chicago, or outside of Chicago I think it was.

Well, anyway, she went down there and I stayed at Battle Creek, and I did work with the policewoman. I went down to her office downtown and I worked out of her office. But I would have to patrol the town by myself. And VJ [Victory in Japan] Day came, and I was told to get downtown and get all WACs back to the post. And I did. But, believe me, it was only my big build that helped me because they were already celebrating and all. And a couple of guys with the girls, you know, and I'd say, "Now, listen, I'm only following orders. You have to get back to the post." They didn't want anybody over-celebrating. Of course, VJ Day ended the war so--

EE:A good reason to celebrate. [chuckling]

DJ:It was, it was, but they didn't want any trouble, so that's what I had to do. And I can remember that definitely, you know, that I did that.

EE:So you didn't have too much fun celebrating because you were too busy trying to ride herd.

DJ:No, I couldn't. I went and I got them all back in that I saw and met and everything and got them back in. And then I don't know what happened, but for some reason they felt that I couldn't patrol the town myself, and they were going to get more WAC MPs they kept saying. But then they made me--and I don't know if you know the service, I was what they call a Permanent CQ [Permanent in Charge of Quarters]. I went around the barracks only. I just did the barracks.

By that time my nerves, I think, were pretty bad and I broke out very severely on my skin. I always had a skin condition, but when I went in the service--That was another thing my mother had said to me, "You know, Dorothy, you have--" 00:40:00Since I was five months old I had a skin condition, and she said, "You know you have a skin condition." And that's another thing what she thought maybe I was rejected for. But they never asked on your application anything about skin. They'll ask about diabetes, heart, cancer, blah, blah, blah, but nothing about skin. And of course I only probably had a breakout somewhere that didn't show enough, so I got in without them asking me about my skin or me telling them about my skin. So when I'm there at Battle Creek and I broke out so severely, I was admitted to the hospital. And the doctor said to me, "Well, what do you treat yourself with?" And I said, "Zinc salve." So he ordered zinc salve for me. And I was there for about a week, two weeks, and oh, it was really demoralizing because by this time the war was over and I was really homesick and I knew I wasn't going to be doing anything pertaining to MP. I really was kind of demoralized, and I went to him and asked him, "Couldn't I go back on duty until it's my time to get out?" He said, "No. I'm going to give you a furlough, and the only stipulation is when you come back you have to be ready to go back on duty." So I came back to New York. I took my furlough and I came back and I went to a skin doctor and he kind of cleared it up on me. And I went back in two weeks and I went back on duty. And then came your points to get out, and I had the points. I had just enough points to get out.

EE:And that was based on the length of time you'd been in?

DJ:On the length of time. The captain said to me, she said, "Oh, well, Dorothy stay in." I said, "No, ma'am, it's time that I go. I've had my pleasure with the service, but I think it's time I go." So I took my discharge. And that's how that all happened.

EE:But they did want you to stay and continue to do MP work?

DJ:No. No, there was no more MP work, really. There was no more. I've known girls now, some girls--There's a girl I know from the WAC chapter down in Florida and she said she was an MP. I don't know, her duties were not like what mine were down at Fort Oglethorpe, but of course we were in a basic training center. Now we checked passes down there. If anybody came in off a bus or something, we checked their passes on the outpost. Because there was a city bus [that] would come right to your outpost from Chattanooga, came in. And if a civilian came in, you'd have to check where they were going, so forth and so on. You know, it was all these little things that we did. I loved it. I loved my WAC MP, I really did. If I could have stayed in as a WAC MP, I think I would have stayed in, although I was anxious to go home. And by that time my mother wasn't well, and I really had--They were all married. I never married. They were married, and I stayed home and helped my mother out. So that's my life.

EE:Well, let me ask you a few other questions about things during that time and then we'll talk a little bit about what happens after your military experience. You had a job. That special the other day on TV was called "Free a Man to Fight," because that was actually what the campaign posters said, the advertising posters.

DJ:That's right.

EE:And yet it doesn't sound like that in your work that was what you did. That was a wholly created job. You didn't send a man to the front, in other words.

DJ:No, no, I didn't send a man to the front.

EE:Because some people have had a little conflict about that. Although I did meet a woman who was--I guess she was in the WAVES at Pearl Harbor and she has kept in contact for fifty years with the man that she freed to fight. Things worked out well and they just have--He would send her letters.

DJ:Naturally most of the WACs did free men, but of course my aspirations of being an MP was not one that did, but I still did a job that had to be done, I felt. I was proud of it.

EE:And you do feel you contributed to the war effort because of that?

DJ:Oh, definitely. Oh yes, I do. I have no doubt about it.

EE:It sounds like your work, because it was totally within the WAC structure, you weren't really exposed as much to--Your COs [commanding officers] were always women, they were not men.

DJ:No.

EE:Did the other MPs, the male MPs, the other people you worked with, did they treat you professionally?

DJ:Oh yes. The male MPs, the unit that was down there, yes.

EE:So you didn't have any trouble with that?

DJ:No, we didn't have any trouble. As I say, you met all kinds of people in the service, you really did. Now I had friends, and they were friends of mine, but they thought nothing of picking up a guy and going to bed with him. Morally, I didn't think it was right, you know. I mean, that's the way I felt. And I had this girl, I think she's passed on now because I haven't heard from her now, but I corresponded with her for years and years and years and she was a good friend of mine, [chuckling] but she was just a tramp, in my opinion. And she'd go to church on Sunday and she'd say, "Jordan, come on, get up, get up, it's time to go to mass." And I'd say, "Oh no, I just got to bed. I just got in from my 11:00 to 7:00. No, I'm not going to get up." And I never, never missed mass, and I know if my father or my mother knew it, I knew I would hurt their feelings and my own. And I was very guilty about it. And ironically this car came by, and this was just in the phases when Oglethorpe was closing and there wasn't much left on. But I was working an outpost, and this car came by, and I didn't even bother to get out, I just waved it on, you know. And the car went in. A little time later the car came back out and the car stopped. And ironically it was a priest. I mean, he had a Roman collar, you know. And he said, "You didn't stop me when I went in." I said, "No, because there's not much in there." "Oh," he says, "I thought maybe you knew I was a priest." I said, "No, I really didn't." [chuckling] And of course I'm starting to sink under the chair as it was, you know--

[End Tape 1, Side A--Begin Tape 1, Side B]

DJ:--because of this girl. I said, "She just makes me feel why go to church? If she can go with her rosary beads in her mouth--" So he explained to me, he said, "You're not out to save her soul. You can't save anybody else's soul but your own, Dorothy. Now I'll be back here Saturday. I'm going to give confessions. I'll be on the north post." We were on the south post. He said, "Will you come and have confession?" I said, "Oh yes, Father." Well, that Saturday came and I really had cold feet. I remember my buddy Wos, I'd say to her, "Oh, I'm not going to go. Oh, I can't go. Oh, I could never tell him--" She'd say, "Well, Jordan, make up your own mind." With that the phone rang and it was the priest. He said, "Are you coming over? I'm here." And I said, "Oh yes, Father, I'm getting dressed. I'm on my way over." And that's true, it happened, and that's what he told me. He said, "You're not out to--" But I knew girls that did things like that.

EE:Well, I'm curious because, given the history of the innuendo campaign against the WACs in particular, how much was the--

DJ:Yeah, but it happened in the other services, too.

EE:We got a letter from an army nurse, who wrote us because in our first literature we didn't have anything about the nurse corps. She said, "All you have is stuff about the WAVES and the WACs, and all they wanted to do was to get a man in bed." You know, you could tell that was something from a long time ago. Her letter said, "We did all the work. These girls were just out to get a man."

DJ:Yeah, yeah, well, it's just an individual. It's just your individual personality and how you were.

EE:As MPs, you were not instructed--If somebody's private business was private, you were concerned with their--public behavior was what you were to monitor.

DJ:That's right, that's right. Well, yes, to a degree, to a degree. Unless they were an undue influence on others, then you would pursue it. But of course, as I say, we had like the first sergeant. I guess she herself and the captain would pursue things like that.

EE:That was something the higher-ups would handle with the individual.

DJ:Yeah, the higher-ranking one. We peons, we worked, as I say, the outposts, downtown, and, well, the guardhouse, which they eliminated after a while. They eliminated that. Colonel Hobby said there were no bad WACs, so she eliminated the guardhouse. But as I say, there that's all we had.

And then one time I got the opportunity to come up to New York to Governor's Island to pick up a prisoner, an AWOL girl who was AWOL from Fort Oglethorpe. 00:50:00They knew I came from New York and they said, "Oh, Jordan, do you want to take a trip up to New York?" And I had just been home. But I said, "Oh, that would be an experience." So I went up and I spent overnight at my house, and then the next morning I went to Governor's Island. I picked the girl up, and I told the girl, "You know, we can travel as just two WACs if you want. I'm not going handcuff you or anything like that. We're just two WACs traveling, as long as you behave yourself." I don't know, she had trouble at home and she felt she had to get home, and she couldn't get a pass, and that's why she went. She wasn't a bad girl. So that's how we traveled. We traveled back down and she got her discipline--whatever they did to her I don't remember or anything--but that was an experience, too.

EE:Did you get a chance to travel back home much during the time you were in service?

DJ:No, just my normal furloughs that I would have. A lot of times I wasn't home for the holidays, you know, things like that. The war really changed everything. It changed families and all. The war changed our family, I know that. My mother, she suffered a lot silently, you know, because my brother and brother-in-law and I were in, and then my other brother in the religious had come home. He went out of his religion. Things like that changed--you know, the war.

EE:Did your family have one of those flags in the front?

DJ:Oh yeah, Mama had her flag with her three stars. Oh yes.

EE:So WACs got a star on the flag, too.

DJ:Oh yes. Oh yeah, she had three stars.

EE:Was that a red flag with a--what did you have, a yellow--How did it work?

DJ:It was a bordered flag.

EE:Red and blue border, or red border?

DJ:There was a blue border and a white background and then red--I don't know if they were red stars. No, I think they were blue stars [red border on white background with blue stars]. There were four blue. And then it was a colored star if one was dead.

L:A gold star.

DJ:A gold star if they were killed. That's right.

EE:Right. I had a woman who said that she comes from a family of only women. And her dad was very eager because everybody else on the street had flags in front of their house and he said, "Yes, you join the service. I want to have a flag in front of the house, too." [laughter] So psychologically it was a big thing.

DJ:Well, these were put in the window.

EE:What was the hardest thing for you, either physically or emotionally, during your time in the service?

DJ:Well, I think when I got up there to Battle Creek. Other than the fact that I had good friends up there, too, that pulled me out of my doldrums, but I think just being shifted around and not really doing the job. Although my discharge shows me as a--I have a specialist number of a WAC MP, so I really had every intention of pursuing it until my skin condition prevented me from doing anything. I came out and I was a year in the vet's hospital with a skin condition, and they just couldn't help me.

EE:Which hospital were you in? In New York State?

DJ:I was in the Kingsbridge Veterans Hospital on Kingsbridge Road, the Bronx, New York--Bronx Veterans--for a whole year. And they'd say, "You look like hell, but I don't know what to do." And I had the best doctors in the world. Ironically, at the time that I was in the hospital, and I had a news clipping about it but I don't know if I still have it, but they had the policewoman test. You'll see pictures of me as I looked when I was in the hospital. I really got very bad, and I came out to take the test. And I passed the test. I didn't have a very high mark, but with my military service I got preference and I was very high up on the list. But then when it came time to have the physical, which was part of the test, I couldn't take the physical. I wasn't physically able. I was still very ill.

I got very ill with my skin condition. Actually, I was poisoned. A doctor had poisoned me, and then he told me he couldn't help me. He was poisoning me with arsenic. My mother was going to him at the same time for her leg condition, and he didn't help my mother and he didn't help me. And then he told me he couldn't treat me because I wasn't cooperating. But at that time you didn't sue a doctor 00:55:00or anything. And then I went to another doctor and he said to me, "You know, you're a veteran. You can go to the veterans hospital." I said, "Oh, I don't want to go in the hospital." He said, "No, no, you can go as an outpatient." So I went up to Kingsbridge, which was in the borough where I lived anyway, and I saw the doctor and he said, "I'm admitting you as a patient." I said, "Oh no, I didn't come here to be admitted. I just want treatment." He said, "No, you're a hospital case. You live close enough, your family can come and bring what you need, but you're not getting out of here. I'm putting you in as a patient."

And at that time they separated the male from the female. We were up on the sixth floor, they called it Hollywood, and the men were on the other floors. I had the best skin doctors, but nobody could figure out what it was. But I think it was all nerves, you know. And then, of course, you automatically become "100 percent" [disabled] when you go in the hospital, and I'm 100 percent disabled. And actually when I came out of the hospital--And the reason I came out of the hospital is my mother needed me. I let them try a whole year to help me and I just was in bad shape. So when I came out I just stayed home, you know. I didn't do anything. So I haven't done anything much since.

But then they wrote me and they said they--The VA [Veterans Administration] wrote and said, "Mr. Jordan, Mr. Dorothy Jordan," which I always loved. I love that: Mr. Dorothy Jordan. They said they had no case on the book of being 100 percent disabled for skin, I had to go down for a review. So at that time I was in the [American] Legion. I was a commander of the Legion post, an all-women's post in the Bronx, New York, and I had the Legion liaison man meet me down there at the VA And he said to me, "Now I'm going to ask you questions, Dorothy. Now don't get upset what I ask you." So he asked me pertinent questions: Do I date? Do I have boyfriends? And I said, "No, would you go out with me the way I look?" He said, "Dorothy, you answer that the same way when you get in there." And I did. I just told them, I said, "You haven't helped me. Help me. That's all I want is help." So they deemed me 50 percent for my skin, 30 percent for my nerves, and 20 percent for my inability to work. And that lasted for about twenty years that I stayed like that. And then finally I was going with a fellow and he died suddenly of a heart attack, he was a beautiful man. And then my brother-in-law, Loretta's husband--I was going to look for a job and I said, "Oh, I won't go today, I'll go tomorrow." He picked me up bodily and said, "You get out and get the job." So I went out and I got--I just worked. I really worked just to get the quarters for my Social Security. So it's only my pension that keeps me going. Because I was not able really physically. As you see, I still have quite a bit of skin trouble right now, but I've learned to live with it.

EE:You know, my father is going to Wake Forest right now. He'll just break out in a red rash. They have a technical name for it: red itchy bump disease. That's all they know what to call it [chuckling] because they can't define what it is. They thought it was--

DJ:Oh, it's very, very difficult.

EE:He had had--What is it? I want to say scabies, but is that the thing?

DJ:Oh, shingles. Oh yeah, I had shingles.

EE:He had shingles, and they thought maybe it was that, but it's not shingles. That's kind of a viral thing.

DJ:Oh yeah, I had that, I had shingles.

EE:Well, I'm sorry to hear that, but it sounds like you've had family and folks to help out. That's good.

DJ:Oh yeah, I had family. No, I'm very lucky. My life is what it's been, and I really--As you can see, I guess, that I do remember quite a bit of my--you know, and I like to meet other people. But nine times out of ten now you meet veterans and they're not--they're either not interested in talking about it--Now I met one woman at bowling and she was in the air corps--in fact, her husband got killed in the service--and she told me just quite frankly she wasn't interested. So I thought, well, I'm not going to--

EE:One of the things we've discovered in talking to women, especially who have had family members who are close who were in the service, men who were in the service, is that for the men this was the worst time in their life. For most of the women, it was some of the best times in their life when they were in the service because they did things they would never have gotten to do before.

DJ:That's true. That's very true, very true. But I really feel that way. Then, 01:00:00of course, I've been associated with the WAC veterans, too. I was the chapter president in New York of the WAC veterans. And then when we went down to Florida I continued down there. And that's why I told Bertha, I wrote and told her I said about that letter that I had got from [Betty] Carter. And Bertha said, "Gee, Dottie, let us know because there's a lot of the girls that have memorabilia that they'd probably be glad to give." So whatever I know that you kind of are looking for is what I'll be able to tell them.

EE:Okay, good.

DJ:But here, I thought if you wanted any of these pictures, because they mean nothing to anybody else. What pictures I thought would interest the--

EE:Okay. Well, let me get through a few of these other questions right quick.

DJ:Oh, okay, you're not through yet! Oh, come on!

EE:I want to ask a few others just in general. Well, you've answered a lot by going on the rest of them. I want to ask you a few more things about that particular time. It doesn't sound like--but I don't know, were you ever afraid in your work?

DJ:No.

EE:You were never? Were you ever in physical danger?

DJ:Well, yes. I can't say I was afraid, because I always--I think I always--my appearance itself kind of was forbidding to a lot of people, and I feel that that probably helped me. No, there were times. In fact, there was one unruly WAC in Battle Creek and she went off her rocker or something, and they had me kind of control her, you know? Yes, I've got to say I was a little afraid then. She was really psycho, though. She took her feces and she went on the wall with it and everything. She was really nuts. So I think then I'd have to say I was a little afraid. [chuckling] I told her, "Hey, I'm not going to tangle with you." But on the whole, no, because most of the times it really was a WAC who had just had too much to drink or something, or a fellow molesting a WAC and you had to tell the fellow to forget it and so forth and so on, things like that. I don't ever remember having any very crucial encounters. If I did, then I'm forgetting them.

EE:Well, is there something that you can remember that was--The question I have says: "What was your most embarrassing moment?" I've discovered that some people are reluctant to talk about their most embarrassing moment; however, they are eager to tell somebody else's embarrassing moment. [chuckling]

DJ:No, I have two embarrassing moments, and one happened when [President] Franklin D. Roosevelt died and they had the parade. They had a parade down at Oglethorpe for him right the day or the day after or something in memoriam for him. And of course it was a very emotional time. And as I say, I was an MP at the time and we were supposed to be around the parade ground just kind of watching, and we had little vials of ammonia, I guess it was, you know, that you--if somebody passed out, because they were passing out--I think he died in August, if I'm not mistaken.

EE:April, April of '45, just before VE Day.

DJ:April? All right, but it was a warm day. I know it was warm and everybody's emotions were such--you know, and they were falling like flies all over. And yes, I went to crack a vial of ammonia and I cracked it in an officer's face. And that was embarrassing. I had to say, "Oh, excuse me, ma'am," and then put it under this private's face to revive her. But as I say, that was embarrassing.

And then the other one, I guess, was my own personal embarrassment to the fact that when I was up in--Where was I? I guess I was in Camp McCoy. I guess it was Camp McCoy, yeah. As I told you, there were a handful of WACs, and a couple of WACs and myself went out. We had met some fellows, you know, and we were coming home. This one fellow dragged me down in the woods, and I guess he thought I was an easy catch or something. I kept saying, "Oh, please, please don't! Don't do anything! Oh, I'm a virgin! I don't want to be--Oh, don't, don't!" And that was my own embarrassment. And I saw the fellow after it and he apologized to me. And it was just the fact that I really led him on when I shouldn't have. And I realized then and I said, "You've got to realize that you can excite a guy too and it's not really fair." So we became good friends. And what I always try to 01:05:00do, I'd always try to get involved with a married man that would tell you all about his wife and kids, and I felt safe that way. [chuckling]

EE:That's true.

DJ:Because no, it's true. And it was too bad, but the WACs did have that reputation that they were loose. And it was far from true. Because if you were loose out in civilian life you were loose in the service, it wasn't that you became loose because of the service. I don't care what anyone--I defended that all through my days when I was in and they'd say, "Oh, well, what are you going in the WAC for? Oh, they're so mannish, and, oh, they're lesbians and they're tramps and they're--" I said, "You're what you are no matter where you are," and that's the way I felt about it, and I would defend it right to the very end. Because of the thousands that I've met, I could put on a handful those that weren't nice. So there you are.

EE:What did you think of Roosevelt, or Mrs. [Eleanor] Roosevelt even?

DJ:Well, at the time, of course, my father was Democrat and I think I was Democrat. I was a dyed-in-the-wool Democrat. But I didn't vote. I don't remember voting. I don't know, I guess I did vote. I did vote, and I know I voted Democrat. That's all I felt about him. Her, I thought she was an ugly woman, but I think in the years since--and you found out that she was a humane person and really a woman that did things--I would say I would have had to admire her. But at the time, I don't think I gave her two thoughts, really.

EE:You were pretty young at the time, too, so--Did you have any heroes or heroines from that time?

DJ:No, not really. No, although other than, as I say, Mrs. Sullivan, whom I was so happy to have met. I think I've got her book somewhere--my cousin has it down at her house, I hope--that she autographed for me. At that time that was it, you know. And the ballplayers. My baseball--I used to admire Carl Hubbell and all those. They were my heroes. [chuckling]

EE:Oh yes. Well, I sort of wish I could have seen Ted Williams play, myself.

DJ:Oh, yeah.

EE:Do you have any favorite songs or movies that you think about from that time period?

DJ:No, not really. I don't think so.

EE:You said for fun you sometimes would scoot off--

DJ:I was an athlete. I bowled, we went bowling, I played softball. I was a tomboy till I was about eighteen.

EE:They did that at Fort Oglethorpe as well?

DJ:They did that in the service. As I told you, the gals that were in basic training, most of them were that type. The type that I gathered with were all just ballplayers. We played softball and we played basketball, inter-league and so forth and so on. And then we went bowling. I went bowling. I just hung around.

We'd go into the NCO [noncommissioned officers club], and that was where I learned to drink beer. I'm not a drinker, I don't drink, although I did drink. I used to drink Kinsey straight. [chuckling] Yeah, because it had a sweet taste. Then that Southern Comfort. It was like Southern Comfort. But in the NCO club, you know, it was right on the post. You'd go, and the fellows and the girls would sit and get together, the guys that were there, you know. But it was the basic trainees that the guys used to get, and they'd come with their blankets. You know, they were just after the trainees, because we all knew them, we knew these guys.

EE:Right, you knew they were operators.

DJ:Oh, sure! We used to laugh at them. "Oh, you've got your blanket tonight?" we'd say. We knew they were going to try to lure some poor rookie into going to the woods or something with them. But they were crazy, you know, everybody. It was a crazy but a happy world then. You didn't have a gun and weren't going to shoot somebody or something.

EE:You didn't have to carry a gun?

DJ:No, we didn't carry a weapon.

EE:I know some of the people who carried payroll had to carry guns.

DJ:We had a little billy club. That's all we had was a little billy club, what they call a billy club. No, we had no weapons.

EE:This is before Miranda rights, so you could just take somebody in if they acted ornery.

DJ:Right.

EE:I guess you had handcuffs?

DJ:No, you just took them. You know, these were basic trainees. These were 01:10:00trainees. Their first night into town, the first weekend that they were allowed--they were restricted for probably four weeks, and the last two weeks of basic they're allowed to go in. And they went in, and some of them, as I say, they'd go to the clubs, the Silver Dollar--there's always a Silver Dollar in every [town]--and all these other shanty clubs. They'd get a couple beers in them or some drink and then they'd--[chuckling] It was ironic. You'd walk in, you and your partner, and you'd have your brassard on, MP, and the little stupid things that they were, they'd be sitting and they'd see you, and then they'd pass by staggering to go to the ladies room, "Hello, MP." Well, you waited till they came back out of the ladies room and then that's what you said to them: "Hon, I don't want to see you in here again when I come by the next time." Because you knew they had had enough, you're not going to pull them in right away. You know, you don't want to make trouble for them either because you know it was their first time. And they had had shots in the morning, and then they'd go in the afternoon, you know, so this is--And then you'd have to check that their passes were--you know, they weren't over their time limit in being--and it was kind of basic.

EE:Well, I'm just wondering, do you think the military experience made you more independent than you would have been otherwise?

DJ:Oh yeah, I think so. Oh, definitely, yeah. Boy, you've got a lot of nice questions. [chuckling]

EE:Well, the other thing that we notice is that no matter--people have all different experiences in the kinds of work they did, where they went, but just being a woman--and this is a new kind of experience for women, to actually be out in the workforce, to be away from home, to be doing a lot of times jobs that previously were only men's jobs. And when we look back at that time they think, well, socially that's probably the start of the women's lib[eration] movement, frankly--when you get women out in the workforce, the same pay--

DJ:Yeah, but I don't believe in the women's lib.

EE:That's not something that you--You don't feel like that was a part of it for you?

DJ:No, not to a degree, I don't believe. I think women have gone too far and they've lost the respect of men. Men don't hold doors open for you anymore, they don't--they sit with their hats on. I don't believe in it, because they've lost respect for women.

EE:Do you think there are some jobs in the military that women shouldn't do? I mean, we just sent women into combat.

DJ:Yeah, well, the modern-day army I don't believe in it, not segregating the females from the males. I don't believe in that at all. And in fact, this young girl that I told you I met that was twenty years in, she says, "No, it's changed. No, it's not what it was." And I would never want to be in today. I wouldn't want to be in for nothing today, because, no, the military today, I don't feel that it's what it should be. And don't ask me about [President Bill] Clinton, please!

EE:[chuckling] No, we don't want to censor it too much. Besides that, it might jeopardize some benefits from the government, who knows.

DJ:Oh, he's probably cutting me now, anyway.

EE:[chuckling] Well, is there anything that I haven't asked you about with your service that you'd like to share with us?

DJ:I don't believe so. [chuckling] I think I've told you--

EE:I think you've gone over quite a lot, actually.

DJ:Quite a lot.

EE:Maybe what I'll do--this will be the end of the formal interview, but I might leave it running for a few minutes so she can walk me through the photo album here. Because sometimes I've discovered that people will end up telling some stories that are interesting while they're looking over photographs. So this is the end of the interview, but I'll let this go. So show me what you've got here.

DJ:Well, as I say, and any that you want, you're more than willing to take. Now that's the WAC MP down there at Fort Oglethorpe.

EE:Well, this and the one of the MPs, I think, is a good--Well, this is the MP.

DJ:Oh, this is the MP. Oh yeah, I keep saying that one. Yeah. Yeah, this is the MP one. That was my basic. Now that's the MP, and then these again now are just subsequent companies after I was there. I just picked them up, you know. And the only thing is you can see the change in the personnel. Now this is--

EE:I should have asked you about the uniform. Did you like your uniform? You know, I've had some WAVES who said that they joined the WAVES simply to wear the uniform. Did you like wearing a uniform?

DJ:Oh, I did. Oh yes, and I was very proud of it, very proud of it.

EE:A lot of folks got lots of discounts [because of wearing the uniform]. They'd get into movies free or they'd get a discounted meal or something.

DJ:Well, I don't know any--Now this is the gal I told you that I wasn't too fond of, but she attached to me down there. This is a corporal at staging. These are 01:15:00just when we're first rookies--us as rookies. This is me, and this gal, she was another big gal. This was in basic. Now here's that Drewett that I told you I got friendly with and who I corresponded with. I think that may be Drewett, too. That's me up there. This is when we first got our fatigue outfits.

EE:[chuckling] Little culottes.

DJ:Yeah. And this gal here, she broke an ankle or something. She was handicapped. I don't know what they did with her. Now these are the ones that I thought you would like, see, because that's the fort.

EE:Oh yeah! This is actually labeled and tells you what's--Oh, well, they'd be great.

DJ:These are promotional. This is promotional from Fort Oglethorpe.

EE:Oh, that would be wonderful!

DJ:So I thought perhaps these would be the ones that you would like.

EE:Sure! And the fact that they're already labeled is great.

DJ:Well, that's how I bought them.

EE:So this is what they would have, like if you were to have family come visit you and you'd go by the PX or something and pick up this sample?

DJ:That's right. These I had bought down there.

EE:The ball game. This is what you were talking about. Did different companies have teams? Is that how it worked?

DJ:Oh, is that what they're doing?

EE:That's a ball game, playing a ball game.

DJ:Yeah, and we'd play in between. Third WAC Training, yes. And that's where we lived, in those barracks. And the MPs had a barracks like that, too. Oh, and this one, too, is--

EE:This is great.

DJ:Yeah, these are the ones that I thought she probably would be interested because of--

EE:[chuckling] Did you actually look like that?

DJ:No, no, these were just promotional, so to speak, you know, that you would buy.

EE:This would have been from '43, I guess. No, '44, when you were in in '44.

DJ:Yeah.

EE:That's wonderful.

DJ:Yeah. See, now these are basic training. This was our sergeant and this was our lieutenant. As I say, they were all young girls and they were a lot of fun. Now what we did, I put safety pins on our fatigues. Now this gal, Mazurousky, she was from Chicago. Oh, you've got that on?

EE:Yes. [chuckling]

DJ:And she got drunk. She went into town, got drunk, and she got pregnant.

EE:Oh, my goodness.

DJ:Poor dumb little stupid girl. She wasn't too young either. She was an older woman than most of us. There she is, Mac [Mazurousky]--we called her that--and she had to get out of the service. Now this is all the basic trainings. Now if you see any that you think you would like, I don't mind.

EE:Now show me where you are in these pictures.

DJ:Oh, well, of course that's me, you know, but I have other pictures of me. Now this is our Lieutenant Mann and Lieutenant--

EE:I like that. Can I take this one?

DJ:You like that? Sure!

EE:This is such a nice fresh face in the sunshine picture. That's pretty.

DJ:Okay. Well, listen, this is how we gathered at mail call, see?

EE:This is you in the middle here?

DJ:Yeah. And Mac was our mail clerk. She was the mail clerk at basic training. This is how we gathered for mail. See, here we are.

EE:I'll take this one right here. This is a group shot. And it looks like these people--some are in more formal dress than the others.

DJ:Yeah. You know I've also got a copy of my orders, my shipping orders, but I don't know how good it's going to be.

EE:Is the hat part of the standard issue?

DJ:What's this?

EE:The hats they're wearing, is that standard issue?

DJ:Oh yeah, they're fatigue hats. Yeah, they were fatigue hats. That's "Brownie" [her name was Brown]. See, Mac is on me. As I say, they were nice people for us being away from home for the first time because they joined in with us. They all did. This is Lieutenant Mann.

EE:Were most of the women there older or younger than you?

DJ:I think most of them were older, to be honest with you. Some of them, I don't think there were many younger because I was only twenty-two. You know, I mean only, but you had to be what, twenty-one anyway. Eighteen. No, I guess eighteen. Yeah. That's Lieutenant Mann.

EE:That looks like mail call. They're calling out the name right there.

DJ:Yes. You want that?

EE:Yeah.

DJ:That's how they did it. See, we all gathered and we all waited for her to call--

EE:Now were these all taken with a little Brownie camera?

DJ:I guess so. I think somebody took them and we passed the negatives around. Now I think I just cut them to go into here, and that's the whole thing. That's 01:20:00how we used to go to town. That's me and two of the others.

EE:This is your MP outfit?

DJ:No, no, I'll give you an MP outfit.

EE:Okay, show me the MP stuff.

DJ:Oh yeah, you've got MP back here. This gal, she married an enlisted--

EE:On the base.

DJ:Now this is my [chuckling] brother and I. Now here's a picture of me with the MP, with my brassard. This was my first time home. Now here's Loretta and I. Yeah, I had my brassard on but you can't really see it.

EE:It looks like you don't have it on here, you have it on here.

DJ:Yeah. This is my brother that was in the religious and came out. And that's me, but that's not a good picture of me. Now here's the MPs, and that's a good one.

EE:Yeah, that is. Although that's not the mountains around Chattanooga, I can tell you that. [chuckling]

DJ:Oh no, no, but see it's Dixie Studio. We used to just go in and have our picture taken. Here's another one. This is Clarkson and me. I can put names on the back. I know that's little Lynchey. I don't know her name now maybe.

EE:It's on the back, [reading] "Mary Lynchey from Portsmouth, New Hampshire." And this one is--

DJ:Troutman. That was Troutman.

EE:Stoop?

DJ:Stoop, I called her. Yeah, we called her Stoop.

EE:Clarkson?

DJ:Clarkson, right.

EE:It looks like her name is Theresa Clarkson.

DJ:Yeah.

EE:Stoop.

DJ:I don't tell where she's from.

EE:You probably do. I just probably can't see it.

DJ:Oh. Let me see if I can.

EE:It's faded out there.

DJ:Oh gosh, no. And see, this is me at--

EE:Is that at a guard post?

DJ:Yeah. These were--how do you say, promotional pictures taken.

EE:[chuckling] Right. Did they have an MP--

DJ:Yeah. Well, the two gals sitting there. If you want this one--

EE:Sure. That's what you were doing?

DJ:Yeah.

EE:One of the things that I don't have much of is pictures. Now this is an official photo?

DJ:Yeah, these were promotional pictures taken down at Fort Oglethorpe.

EE:And this is of you?

DJ:That's me, and they were taken--

EE:See, one of the things that I'd love to have is pictures of people doing their work in the service.

DJ:Well, okay, that was it. This was our first sergeant, Smarrup. This was our gripe tree. These are all WAC MPs. That's what I say, when they had time off these would be together who were together, you know, and all. This is the trollop that I told you about, Majerus with the rosary beads in her mouth. [chuckling]

EE:There was no air conditioning at Fort Oglethorpe.

DJ:No, no. This was Case, Sergeant Case married Calvert. She was our--

EE:Your CO [commanding officer]?

DJ:No, she was a sergeant for personnel, I guess. This was our top sergeant, Smarrup.

EE:Who is this?

DJ:Her name was Nation. I don't know if I have a name on the back. See, some of these I sent home so I put names. No, I didn't. But that was that folder that she had, see? There's the MP. That was Nation, her name was, I remember. She came from Wisconsin or Ohio or something. Now there's me. And Walter Pidgeon was down, but I wasn't there at the time. And this was the--he was the chaplain. I wasn't there at the time. That's Lieutenant Hubbinger. She was a sweetheart, she really was. She was a good motherly--

EE:Where were all these livestock [in picture] coming from?

DJ:I don't know, they got loose. They got loose, I guess.

EE:Is this your own little private garden?

DJ:No, that was right outside the provost marshal's building. We had nice surroundings.

EE:What have they got, a little motorcycle with a sidecar?

DJ:I think so, yes. But see, I wasn't--I think they gave me these. Somebody had them and I had them made up for me. These gals all came from Wisconsin. Oh no, Bernie didn't, I know. This is our chaplain up there. Now, see, these were Chattanooga, Chickamauga Park, the WAC training.

EE:Right, up on the hill.

DJ:Now if you want that--

EE:Sure. Which one is you?

DJ:No, I'm not in that. There stands what's-her-name with her jacket open, a WAC MP with her jacket open. [chuckling] So does Monday have--They all have their jacket open.

EE:Yes, two of them do. That's great.

DJ:These still are MPs. I had to write and say that she had--Where is that? Oh, 01:25:00this one, that she had a bra on, because--

EE:You couldn't tell too much from this shot.

DJ:This was toward the end now. They were letting in younger girls, and they really were not trained for MPs. This is one case right here, and this gal, too. They were a younger crew coming in because we lost a lot of the other girls. These are just again--

EE:Palling around the barracks.

DJ:We were getting ready to go on duty. I remember this with Dewey. Now these gals changed uniforms. This gal, Katie Wildes, she was a store detective in Minneapolis-St. Paul, I think in Minneapolis or St. Paul. And this is Walters, she came from Ohio, I know that, but they switched all their uniforms. I think they sent them to the GI magazine at the time. I forget what the GI magazine was, but they sent them there. And here's a couple of the fellows. They were MPs from there. Now this gal, she came in as an MP, but she was one of the first WACs to go over to France. And when she came back they assigned her to the MPs. But that's what I say, now these gals here, see, they were only staff car drivers. That's Warren from--I don't know where she came from in North Carolina. No way to know now. Now that's the WAC van down there in Oglethorpe, if you want that.

EE:Yeah. It must be a promotional photo or something.

DJ:I think it was. That's the van--And then we took the flag down at retreat. One time I'm chewing gum and pulling the flag down and I got reported.

EE:Disrespectful to chew gum while you're doing that.

DJ:Now, see, these are just Chickamauga Park [overlooking Chattanooga, Tennessee]. I don't think you want to bother.

EE:I just took the kids up to that just recently.

DJ:Oh yeah, we've been there.

EE:And now the view from there is obscured because across the way there's a big shopping mall. [chuckling]

DJ:Oh sure. Oh yes.

EE:What is this on the side here?

DJ:Well, that's the Fourth WAC. That's what it was, the Fourth WAC Training Center. I said Third.

EE:So that was the symbol for the Fourth WAC.

DJ:Yeah. See, one, two, three, four, Fourth WAC Training. I think the Third was in Devon, I think the First was in Des Moines. Devon, Daytona, and then Fort Oglethorpe. Now that's my Army buddy that I was very, very close to, as sisters actually. This was her husband. She stayed down there, but she's passed on. She had cancer very bad. This is Wos, and Fox. See, I remember their names. But these all, they were staff car drivers. Wos was a staff car driver, too. Now, this is in Battle Creek, Michigan.

EE:This is up at the hospital?

DJ:Yeah, it was at Percy--Oh, here's a nice one of the MPs, Monday and I, if you want that.

EE:Was this in Battle Creek?

DJ:No, no, this was in Oglethorpe. I don't know how they come out.

EE:Yeah, I think you told me that in Battle Creek that you yourself the only one to be there.

DJ:Yeah. [short commentary about inserting photos into their slots, not transcribed] That's Monday and I. But these were the fellows. Now these are kind of jumbled, but this was the crowd of girls that I met in--That's what I say, I always met a nice group. And this is in Battle Creek. Now we lived behind the hospital, Percy Jones. I have a picture of Percy Jones. And this was just all of us. That's my other best buddy. And this gal I still see, or I correspond with, Billie. She lives in Akron, Ohio, she and her husband. Now these two are--

EE:Quite a switch from Fort Oglethorpe where it was hot all the time to Battle Creek.

DJ:Oh yeah! Well, we built a snowman. But see, I wasn't feeling well at that time. That's just before I went in the hospital. Now this girl, Luckabill, I just told Loretta, she was from Danville, Virginia, but I wouldn't know how to contact her. Lucky Luckabill we called her. Now these two were lesbian. This one was married. I don't know if she was, but she got infatuated with her and she didn't want to leave. She was a sergeant and she was a lieutenant. Heidelman and--I don't know what her name was, I don't remember. There's Gladys dancing with--Now, this is my brother and my friend Billie whom I told you I still correspond with.

EE:This is the one [brother] who was in the service--I mean the order?

DJ:Yeah, religious. We went to downtown New York. Billie and I, we had a pass, mind you a weekend pass, to go to her home in Akron, Ohio. And we're at the station and Billie said, "Gee, I wish we were going to New York." And I said, "Oh, let's go to New York, Billie. They don't check you. And if they check us we'll just tell them--" So we went to New York. [chuckling] To my house, see. And my brother John--Milt, we called him Milt--my brother John, I said to him, "Oh, Milt, will you take us downtown? Billie has never been downtown." So he took us downtown to show us downtown. In those days you could do things like that. Take a nickel subway ride, you know, and go downtown. So we went downtown and we stopped in this photo place, and he had three photos made and the guy says to him, "Fifteen dollars." My brother says, "Fifteen dollars? I don't have fifteen dollars." He wanted five dollars apiece for these, and we were going to have one, Billie was going to have one, me and John. So we settled for two, gave it to Billie and I, and he paid three dollars apiece. He only had six dollars on his person. What did he have, you know, in those days? So that was the story on that. But we had fun about it.

EE:That's funny.

DJ:These girls were already leaving. They were already getting out of service because their time was up, and they were all dressed to go, you know, and that's--They had black squirrels there in--Now this again is a promotional. Now this was down in the candy store in my neighborhood. I don't know if you want it.

EE:Sure! This was at Battle Creek?

DJ:No, this was at Oglethorpe. No, see, at Battle Creek I didn't do any of this. But as you see, that's where I lived. And I let them have it--[reading] "PFC Eunice--" See that? I let them have it down at the candy store, you know, the neighborhood people in service. So that was this one that was down there. That's why it's pretty shot. This is Gladys. She died, too. She was another army buddy. Now here I am. I'll show you these. These you don't want, they're just--But now here I am in the hospital. Now where am I? These were all taken up in the vets' hospital. These are women veterans.

EE:This is what you had as an ID.

DJ:Yeah, that's my pass. Now I've got a picture of me, and you can see how bad I looked. I'm sitting in one and I don't see it now.

[End of Interview]