Oral history interview with Joan Lyle

WOMEN VETERANS HISTORICAL PROJECT ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION INTERVIEWEE:Joan Lyle INTERVIEWER:Beth Carmichael DATE:May 1, 2007 [Begin Interview]

BC:Today is Tuesday, May 1, 2007. My name is Beth Carmichael and I’m at the home of Joan Lyle in Mission Viejo, California to conduct an oral history interview for the Betty H. Carter Women Veterans Historical Project at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro. Thank you for talking with me this morning, Mrs. Lyle.

JL:You’re welcome.

BCAnd if you could give me your full name, we’ll use that as a test for our tape recorder.

JL:Okay, my full name is Mary Joan Whelan Lyle. [recording paused]

BC: Mrs. Lyle, I would like to start by talking a little bit about your background. Can you tell me about when and where you were born and a little bit about your family and your childhood?

JL:Yes. There’s nothing spectacular about it, but I was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and do you want the date?

BC:If you are comfortable giving it.

JL:Well, 3/12/20, I’m used to saying to people who ask, and so I guess you can figure that out [BC chuckles] easily enough. Four score and seven. Anyway, I had three brothers who were older. I was the babe of the family. And they’re all—they have passed away at this time. So I am the lone member of our family. And my folks of course have been gone for many years. Let’s see, I went to school there, St. Louis Park [Senior] High [School] and graduated in—what year did I graduate? I was seventeen. Anyway, the year doesn’t matter.

BC:It would be 1937?

JL:Yes, ‘37 is right. So, anyway, I had a normal childhood there. Quite a few sports I entered—kind of an outdoor person, I didn’t ever care for dolls or playing house. So I was rather out playing run-sheep-run with the boys or whatever. Anyway, I was kind of a tomboy, shall we say.

And anyway, when I graduated from high school, I was seventeen in March and I graduated that year and then went to the airport the first chance I could get, because everyone had asked me—or somebody—what got me into flying? I don’t know. I’d say “I don’t know.” [chuckling] It’s something that—it isn’t something that I had in mind for years and this is what I want to do, it’s what I want to be. Nothing like that, I just knew I wanted to fly at that point. And I didn’t have anything, any job, or anything special to do after graduation, so I just said I was going to go out and do it.

BC:Had you ever been in a plane? Or—

JL:No.

BC:Did you live near the airport and see—?

JL:No, I wish that I had. It will come out that I wasn’t very near. No, it was about—took about an hour and a half to get there on the bus, on the street car, and then at the end of the line walking a mile.

BC:Oh my god.

JL:But this didn’t bother me any because I like to hike, so I made it first time. And I didn’t want to—couldn’t afford to spend my money to find out if I liked it, if I liked flying or not; I was so sure of it that I took my lesson first time I went out, first lesson. So, that sort of spells the start. I just kept on when I could. It was very slow, because our winters are bad in Minneapolis.

For one thing, I had no car, no driver’s license at that time. But that came soon after. It was just—we only had one car, and so—besides, my father didn’t know I was doing this. But, so when I could I would take this route and go out, and my lessons were very spread apart and then we had a lot of bad weather, that there was no flying. So that was a year before I soloed. And my time was varied, would be two or three months between lessons and so forth, so it wasn’t the best way to learn how to fly. Nevertheless, I liked it and enjoyed it, so I did it. And—let’s see.

BC:You said your father didn’t know, did you mother know you were taking lessons?

JL:Yes. She was in cahoots with me.

BC:How can you keep it a secret? [laughter]

JL:Yes, yes. It was—you’d have to know it about my father to understand this, but he was ultra-conservative. And of course he would—the reason for him not wanting me to do this would be for my safety. 00:05:00So anyway, it just started out with not wanting to mention it, and it just sort of kept going on and my mother went along with it, so I just left it that way.

BC:And what did she think about it? Was she concerned?

JL:Well, she didn’t—no, she wanted me to do what I wanted to do. And I persuaded her that it was safe and so forth if you follow the rules. So, she was a very, very about it, helped me. So that’s about it until I—see, I finally, when I was in college at the University of Minnesota, I was at the airport more than I should have been. And that’s when I was getting—I had gone ahead and had gotten a lot of time in as I could.

Incidentally, the one thing that helped me a lot was that there was some others at the airport who were in the same boat, trying to build up time for your licenses. You had to have two hundred hours for a commercial and so forth, and I think it was thirty-five for private. But anyway—what was I going to say? Oh, a bunch of us got together on a rainy day out there when there was no flying and we decided to—that, I mean, everyone wanted to learn to fly, but it was expensive to get your time in. So we formed the Minneapolis Flying Club, eleven boys and me. And we bought a Piper [J-3] Cub, which is what we were flying; that’s what I learned to fly in, and flew many hours in it.

BC:So you all pooled your money, the twelve of you?

JL:We all pooled our money. It cost us a thousand dollars, roughly, a piece. And we—one of the—got somebody had to go in—a friend of somebody’s, because we didn’t have enough time to do that. I think that’s right. Because I’m trying to think who went and I can’t remember. But it seems to me that we found another pilot to go. Maybe it was one of ours, but I didn’t think so.

Anyway, the point was it was our airplane. We could fly for about—I think at that time, which was very cheap, and it was about a dollar something an hour or two dollars an hour, right around in there. So we could get our time for a lot, lot, lot less than if we hadn’t done that. Even taking the initial cost into [consideration], so.

BC:Where did you keep the plane? Was while you were at the university?

JL:Oh, no, no, not at all. They didn’t have any airports. Where I learned to fly was called the Cedar Flying Club, and it was in a suburb of—well, it was really Minneapolis, but it was on the outskirts. It was not too far from the place where I learned—the airport where I learned to fly, which was Minneapolis—at that time called Minneapolis Airport. It was changed later to include St. Paul and it got bigger.

But anyway, I got my time. I started to tell you when I was in college, I had finished my commercial [licensing] and I was working on my instructor’s rating, so I’d go out as often as I could, oftener than I should, and get my time built up. So I finally got my—by the time I graduated, I was ready for my instructor’s rating.

BC:And what did that require, the instructor’s rating?

JL: That required two hundred—a commercial license first, which was two hundred hours solo, and passing the test [which] was written and flight test, of course. So that’s about it, just getting the flying time and taking those tests. And so I got that in the summer after I graduated.

BC:And when was that? What year did you graduate?

JL:That was ’37. No, wait a minute—that’s not right. That’s the dated I started high school—

BC:Right.

JL:That’s not the date I graduated. [chuckles]

BC:Well, high school was ’37. [laughter]

JL:It was forty—no, wait a minute. It was forty—let’s see. It was ’41. ’41 or ’42. It was ‘42 I think, early ’42.

BC:Okay, so after Pearl Harbor.

JL:Yes.

BC:Do you remember where you were when you heard about Pearl Harbor?

JL:Yes. I was happening to be having a birthday party at my house and it was—well, we know the date, but that’s where I was. We were having a party and it came over the radio and everybody was livid, 00:10:00almost. Anyway, that’s how I learned of it. And, of course, after that, everyone wanted to help.

BC:Is that when you first started thinking about flying for the war effort, or how did you get involved with the WASP [Women Airforce Service Pilots]?

JL:Well, yes. Well, I read about it and heard about it and thought it would be something I would enjoy and wanted to do.

BC:Okay. Because I know they didn’t need to and didn’t do very much actual recruiting.

JL:No. No, they didn’t because the girls were all eager. In fact, I would have been in a lot sooner but I had a problem with a report, a medical report that had happened a couple of years before that where I was unconscious for a number of hours that they didn’t—didn’t answer their requests, so I was turned down because of that. So then I started to work.

BC:So you were initially turned down for the WASP?

JL:Yes. Well, yes because they wrote and said they couldn’t take anyone that was unconscious for a period, because they were afraid that you’d fall back in to it or something.

BC:Right, anything could happen.

JL:Some rule. This didn’t—super. So anyway, I wrote and I was turned down twice. They that [unclear], “but we cannot do this.” So I went to—had to go to Washington. [crying] This is just terrible. I should’ve started out with that because I do this all the time. I’m one of those people that it just takes nothing and I start to cry and I’m so embarrassed.

BC:I’m the same way.

JL:But I’ve been fighting it all my life and I can’t stop it—and for the dumbest reasons. I mean, I have no reason. Even when I’m talking. Oh, it just makes me so mad, I’m trying to talk to somebody about something and they’ll started looking at me and I’ll start to cry and I don’t even know why. So don’t feel sorry about me.

BC:No, my mother does the same thing.

JL:Does she? Well, there are people that just have over—been over-given the—

BC:Extra tears.

JL:Just too generous with your tear problem. Anyway, it’s not a problem. Guess it is. Where was I?

BC:We were talking about what you did when you were first turned down by the WASP.

JL: Anyway, I called and made a—and she was very nice, gave me an appointment to see her.

BC:And who is this?

JL:Oh, I’m sorry, Jacqueline Cochran, are you familiar with her? She was the one that started the WASP. And she was very eager to get the girls in there and had already started, because I went through this business of waiting long times in between for my answers. Anyway, I went there and she put me in right now.

BC: So you met her in person?

JL:The requirements for the girls she was getting—going to get the girls, as many as she could, of course, there. And the requirement was thirty-five hours of solo flying. After you make your solo, thirty-five hours, then you could apply for the WASP. And I had a commercial license and I had the instructor’s rating, was teaching myself. I did a little bit of that, but I skipped part of that. But anyway, after I got my rating I started doing a little bit.

But anyway, she—I had my log book with me and my letters from the doctor that I had gotten before I left saying about this accident I was in. I was shut down in a rumble seat for about seven hours or something like that and I took unkindly to that, so that’s what fouled me up or I would have been in classes sooner. But anyway, she understood the whole thing and wanted to say yes, and did, got me in right then and said, “You’re in class 44-2.”

BC:What did you think of her?

JL:Oh, she was very nice. She’s a hard-blooded gal. She’s not just sitting around being a dainty little thing. She won a lot of flights, you know—a lot of airplane pilot flights. She entered contests and she won over the men. So, I admire her for what she had done. And I 00:15:00mean, she made a decision in my case and she made other ones, too.

BC:What had you being doing in the interim, between graduating and actually being approved for the WASP?

JL:Well, let’s see, let me separate those things. That was after the WASP, let’s see. Well, I didn’t have that much time. I went to see her in—I don’t even remember that, but the month—but it had to be in the spring of [’43 – corrected by veteran], because I was assigned to the class that started in September [’43 – corrected by veteran],. It was 44-W-2 it was called. And so I was in that, and so I didn’t have too much time. I didn’t go into any other thing at all. I just bided my time so I went and did as much flying as I could. I did have a couple of jobs that were like nothing. I think I was a saleslady at Dayton’s department store for a while. And I worked for photography outfit for a while because I had a darkroom in my basement—in the basement where my dad had built it for me, put the necessary boards up. And I was in the—preparing pictures after they were turned in—I can’t think of the word—for a little while. But just odd jobs like that until it was time for me to go in September.

BC:And what did your parents think about the WASP?

JL:Well, they knew that I was going to be doing flying. I was going to be an instructor some place or I’d—if I couldn’t do the WASP, I’d be [flying].

BC:You’d be flying anyway.

JL:Flying anyway, yes. So—[laughs] it’s funny. So I didn’t do too much spectacular that summer, but just got ready to go and did as much flying as I could. That’s about it.

BC:And so you entered in September of [’43 – corrected by veteran]?

JL:Yes. And then after I graduated—after, in [’44 – corrected by veteran], —Oh, I have to tell you an incident about our graduation. See, there was an instance before that. I should tell you these things.

BC:Why don’t you tell you me a little bit about your training at your time at Avenger Field [Sweetwater, Texas].

JL:Well, that’s just what I was going to get to. It was great. We had our program was designed to duplicate the men’s. We did everything they did in the same way, and so forth. The school was not—including uniforms, which were old uniforms of the men’s, and we just wrapped them around. So, we didn’t have our own uniforms as students, or as—to begin with. So anyway, one—I think it was Christmas vacation—one of the girls in our bay dressed her brother up in one of these suits and snuck him into our bay and spent three days there during Christmas vacation. I thought that was worth mentioning. And he never got caught and neither did she.

BC:[laughter] What did the rest of you think about that?

JL:We were all warned. Oh, it was fun having him, you know. He was like, I think he was fifteen or sixteen, or something like that. It was interesting. So anyway, then at graduation, General Hap Arnold—I don’t know if you’re familiar with that name, but anyway, he was one of great five-star—one of the few five-star generals in the air force. He was at my—our graduation with Jacqueline Cochran. He came as the guest speaker and doer. And he was going to pin our—pin our wings on. So we had the day out on the field and he was there ready to pin them on and did start.

Jacqueline Cochran told him, said, “You don’t have to—just because you’re kind enough to do this, you don’t have to do this to the whole class, if you just put a few on.” Here I go again. [crying] Oh! I feel so bad.

BC:It’s okay. It’s obviously a special 00:20:00 moment.

JL:Alright. Well yes, we’re funny. He did the first two, I think, and then Jacqueline Cochran, who told him this beforehand that she would take over for him if he just started it, and so he pinned on a couple and she said, “After this one I’ll do it. It’s not necessary for you to do the whole thing, General.”

He says “Oh, I’m having too much fun! I don’t want to be replaced!” He did everyone in the class.

BC:Did he really?

JL:Yes, including mine, and I was a W.

BC:A W, all the way at the end.

JL:Alphabetically. So, it was worth mentioning.

BC:Well, that has to have been quite a thrill.

JL:He was so nice and he just said, “Oh, I’m having fun.” And he sort of made a gesture like that which, of course, he didn’t use when he put all the pins on. So that was fun. Okay, what was after that—let’s see.

BC:How was the training? Was it difficult?

JL:Well, yes it was, but it was—it wasn’t more so than I expected, because I talked to boys who had done it, you know, went through flight training, a little bit, not very much. But it was rigorous, you know? We had reveille and the whole business that they had in the service that the boys had. We marched to everything, you know, line up with a couple of A’s[?] [pause] housing facilities, and marched and sang almost everything, and went to ground school or to the flight line or whatever. And that’s—we did everything the boys did. And it was—they wanted it patterned that way so—Jackie Cochran insisted on this so that they didn’t call us [party?] girls or something. We had good instructors, and it was a busy time, you know, but it was wonderful and we liked it. I mean, most of us enjoyed it.

BC:And it was a combination of flight time and also sort of—

JL:Oh, yes it was—

BC:—and classroom work.

JL:Yes, we had different planes than most everyone there was used to, because they were, a lot of them—there were some that had been in a previous program that went to England, you probably know about that one—but most of the rest of us were just coming from our home airports where we learned how to fly. And of course we didn’t have the equipment. Most of us were flying like Cubs and Aeroncas and the trainers, and couldn’t afford the bigger planes.

So we started—there were three phases: beginning, medium and advanced. And so the student—they called the first one the student one. And anyway, we had for the beginning plane, the primary—that’s what I was trying to think of—primary phase was a much bigger plane than we were used to. So it was a transition there. We didn’t start to fly and solo and so forth until we had more training, so we had a second solo flight training program with the air force. It was—I mean I just loved every bit of it. In the basic, we had still a bigger plane, and in advanced we had the AT-6, North American AT-6 [Texan], which you may not know of, but if you do, it was a wonderful airplane. It’s my favorite.

BC:Why was it your favorite?

JL:Oh, I don’t know. It was very maneuverable and very solid. You just felt that you had control, you know. So, it was a possibility of something going wrong in the plane, but we never experienced it, most of us. No running out of gas and things like that. But the equipment that we flew was great. The primary and basic were just fundamental. We’d get over with the advanced and the AT-6 was wonderful. It was something you could really enjoy, and that you were no longer a student after you checked out in it. After—well, you were a student the whole course with—you had a lot of solo time. So, it was enjoyable. I loved it.

BC:How long was the training?

JL:Well, let’s see. September to March—six months.

BC:Okay, so six months.

JL:Oh, yes. It was—it was not a couple week 00:25:00thing, the regular program. It was all enjoyable. And then we had the nice big graduation, and a lot of the parents came to that. My mother came down.

BC:Did she really? That’s wonderful.

JL:So—not my dad. No, she came, and that was a day to remember.

BC:I’m sure it was.

JL:It was a [lead up?].

BC:Yes. So, what did you do after graduation? Where did they send you?

JL:Alright, they sent—I think there were eleven of us; nine; I don’t remember exactly—to Dodge City [Army Airfield], Kansas, which was a transition to the B-26. And we were assigned to the B-26. And our final ending flight was to Boise, Idaho, for the—Gowen Field is what they called the airport. And that’s where we flew when we graduated, and went through the training [in] the B-26s in Dodge City, Kansas. Then we were shipped to Gowen Field in Boise, Idaho. That place is—I don’t know. I don’t think that airport exists anymore; so many didn’t after the war. It’s been gone for a long time. Anyways, we flew with a sock they called it, a linen piece of material for the gunners. This was a gunnery base.

BC:So you were towing these linen targets—is that what it was?

JL:Yes, they would practice their gunnery by shooting targets which we were carrying on the back of the B-26. So, that was what we did.

BC:How did you feel about that job?

JL:Oh, I liked it, because it was bigger aircraft and I liked the B-26. It was interesting. I enjoyed it.

BC:Were you ever concerned about them doing this target practice with live ammunition?

JL:No, no, no. There’s lots of jokes about that: did you get hit and all, this, that. But no.

BC:It was pretty safe setup, I presume.

JL:Exactly. It was not a problem as far as I was concerned. None of us had a problem with it, I’m sure.

BC:How were you received by the male pilots?

JL:Oh, fine. Most of them were good. Once in a while you’d find one, you know, “What are you doing here,” type thing. But, no, no, they were acceptive. I mean they wouldn’t—I mean, some were—Every year since I’ve been born, the women have gone up some to equalize the men, as far as working concerns and what you can do as a woman. Most of them can be doctors or lawyers or whatever, and has been for a long time, of course. And so this was just another step, getting the women into it. And most of them accepted it [unclear] fine.

BC:That’s great.

JL: So it was interesting.

BC: What kind of social life did you all have? Did you interact much with the pilots, or?

JL:No. This was verboten. We didn’t—we weren’t supposed to date the pilots. And I don’t know how much of a strict rule that was. I think there was a few that overstepped it a little maybe, but this is life.

BC:Right.

JL:I didn’t, of course. I really didn’t. Anyway, they were all the instructors, most of them. There was one, I think, one instructor that we called a sour guy. He was—kind of felt—his attitude was kind of like he felt like he had to do this and he didn’t want to. But I shouldn’t even mention that because they were mostly all very nice and very competent and good to get along with.

BC:How many WASPs were there?

JL:Oh, dear. People always ask me that and I never know.

BC:Was it a big number of you, or just—?

JL:Ask my husband. He reads something and remembers all these figures.

BC:Loves the details.

JL:I just ignore them. But he can tell you how many were in our class and how many graduated. I think he said less than half graduated. But, you know, I don’t remember the numbers, but he’d know them right off the bat. If you want to know any numbers, just ask him.

BC:And how long were you in Boise?

JL:In Boise. I think that was—I 00:30:00think it was, let’s see. [pause] I think it was six or seven months, because when they started bringing the boys back—let’s see—September, March—

BC:So through most of [’44 – corrected by veteran]?

JL:Pardon me?

BC:For most of [1944 – corrected by veteran]?

JL:Oh, [’44 – corrected by veteran]. Oh, yes. It was—we were there—I should have said that to start with. We were there until December of [’44 – corrected by veteran]. And then the reason we weren’t there any longer was because they cut us off. When the—the original purpose for this, from Jacqueline Cochran, was to replace the boys, the pilots, for combat. Too many of them were doing what we ended up doing, and they needed them in combat. So they—she organized this so they could send those boys, and they did send a lot of them to combat. When they started coming back, you could see the war was almost over, and they weren’t needed anymore. Then they could come back and take up their flying jobs here. So they [claps] didn’t need both, they said. Jacqueline Cochran was most unhappy about that.

BC:I’m sure.

JL:We all were, but—so that’s the way it happened. So in December, we all came home. Didn’t even send us home, we just were on our own. They just said we were through, bye-bye.

BC:Well, before get to that, and I want to talk about that, but I had read in Jean [Hascall] Cole’s book [Women Pilots of World War II]—I know she had spoke to you—that you had an accident in Boise.

JL:Oh, yes, my arm.

BC:Can you tell me what happened?

JL:Yes. I don’t like to, but I’ll tell you. [laughter] I got out of a plane that was still idling, not—well, it was on. It was just in the idle position, however. Anyway, I was going to get out and go into the office for some reason and the other gal was—there was always two, pilot and co-pilot. And I was co-pilot that day, and I wanted to get out and do something in the office, and I don’t know what that was now. But anyway, I got out, and I wish I knew exactly what I was doing—had done, but I wanted to stop the guy that was getting in the jeep and going in, and I wanted to—because I wanted a ride. It was a ways in to the office. And so I went like that [snaps].

Oh, you can still see that one, and that one. There were three times. It was a four-bladed prop. I got three blades right up to there, so I don’t wear short-sleeves. [chuckles] Well, I have other reasons I don’t wear short-sleeves: some medicine that takes, that makes you get purple and red and all that stuff; I mean, that’s not uncommon. So, that’s what happened to me.

So I had—I was very lucky, because the doctors in the air force mostly were sent out, not to—not a lot of them—not to do what they were used to doing, or majoring in, shall we say, as a business, but were—joined the—they were in the air force. They joined to help like all of us. [begins to cry] Oh! This was a—the one that I got, that happened to be there—I mean, a lot of them were in different areas of doctoring than they were back at their own home places. And the one I had was a specialist in doing exactly what I needed.

BC:What you needed.

JL:Yes. He was well-known for his ability in that area [and I needed it?]. I mean, it took a long time. They had to get—everything was cut in two, from the vibration and so forth. And they had to go like this—

BC:So they were able to—

JL:—for nine hours and put it back together again. I’m very fortunate all I have is this to remember. I can’t move that finger up, that one up. I can move it down. And it’s swollen, but I can’t move it up. So, you can do that all day long [laughter] and 00:35:00never move it. So—which I’m very grateful.

BC:And so then you stayed in Boise while you recovered from this?

JL:Yes. No, I was still in bed. I had a big bandaged arm when I left. I was up to that point. And at first I was on crutches for a while, and then they put me on—to go home. I was bandaged up, and part of the time at the hospital I was that way. And so then I had to go to a doctor in Minneapolis to finish up my training—my recovery. And they sent me—they gave me papers on just what to do and what I needed for the doctors, one doctor to another or whatever. And so I came home and did that. And it was just finishing up, actually, what I—what I didn’t have time to in Boise. [Actually, I got back on flying status in November 1944 and had a few more flights at Gowen Field before the WASPS were disbanded in December, 1944—added by veteran].

BC:So how did you all find out about that the WASP was being disbanded in 1944?

JL:Well, the only thing I can remember—and I have a lousy memory, as you have figured out—because I get asked that so many times. And what they did was—and this will, I’m sure, be echoed with anyone you talk to who was sent home—they just came through with an announcement one morning that they were being disband—that the WASP was being abandoned and was no longer to exist. And they thanked us for being there, but we wouldn’t be needed anymore, so that was it. I’m sure you could get a better answer from somebody else who was in it more, but I don’t know or I’ve forgot. But it’s well known among the WASP and talked about quite a bit that they just shelved us.

BC:Right. That there was very little notice.

JL:Very little notice and very little explanation other than they didn’t need us. Just “The boys are coming back and we don’t need you.” And it wasn’t that blunt, maybe, but that was the effect. We all had to find our own way home and so forth. I think of them did get flights from fellows that were flying—instructors who were flying back home also. A certain place they had that they could take some of the girls. I took a—I took a bus, I think, or an airplane or something.

BC:Now, you went back to Minneapolis?

JL:Yes, and that was my first—end of my first career. Oh no, it wasn’t. What am I saying? I flew a while after that. I was thinking of the WASP, but as a pilot I kept flying as an instructor for quite a few years and also cross-country type flying, different types of flying.

BC:So, what—

JL:Instrument flying and so forth.

BC:So what did you do when you went back to Minneapolis? You got a job flying as an instructor?

JL:Right. [pause] Now, wait a minute. That’s not right. I was instructing—I was instructing some before I went in. It was right at the point where I had gotten my instructors rating, but I was young in the business. And I know I went to the airport where I had been taking my flying lessons and when I got my licenses and so forth, and they said they’d give—I could work for them as an instructor as long as the pilots that they had—the regular instructors that they had there were all busy. And when another student came in, then I could fly, I would be an instructor. When they just—well, they were there every day and so forth, regular instructors, full time, to take any students and had schools going and so forth. So I said “Okay. Okay, I’m ready.”

So I kept going out there and there wasn’t much business. It was at a time when there wasn’t much business anyway there, in that area, so I thought I’m not going to spend my time hanging around the airport every day. It was getting old very fast, like one day. I’d spent enough time doing that, waiting for weather and things 00:40:00like that.

So at that time, what got me moving from there was—this was at Minneapolis, Wold-Chamberlain [Field] it was called then, later Minneapolis-St. Paul airway [sic— International Airport]. And the air force—I mean, not the air force. [pause] Alright, they had—they started a school for, and job—opened jobs for ladies for the first time right at that point in my life, and this was for airport control tower, or ATC, airway traffic control. They had—which were two then, you may know. The airway traffic control controlled flights cross-country and municipal flights and—well, any of the flights that you take and go from here. And they were taking applications for women. And the airway traffic control—so separated, I started to say, and airport traffic control, which was the tower. So they had the local boys doing the tower work, and then the ATC were in just with the machines.

And my first experience was they said I could go to the ATC and take the training, so I did. I built all this stuff. And so then I was with air traffic—airway traffic control it was known as then, for just a few months when they opened—there was no school opened yet. They just opened it up for women and you could make an application, but there was no school set up for training. So I went to work in the control office, the airway traffic control, and they worked in conjunction with the tower. They’d give messages back and forth and so forth from flights the airlines were on and all that. So they were then—after I’d been there several months, they opened a school for girls for this job, because they had lots of applications and they were all just learning day-by-day.

BC:Right, learning on the job.

JL:On the job training, OJT. And so I got a lot out of that, and then they sent everyone to the school, also. It was in Chicago, and I went to school in Chicago for about three months, I think it was. And then I was sent to—I can’t remember where I was working—Cincinnati, gosh that’s terrible—Cincinnati airport was where I was sent after completing the schooling there. So I was in there for, really, three or four months until I started feeling like I wanted to be in the WASPs. I wasn’t there that long, because I had that feeling before I went there. But when I got down there and was established at a new type of job, I couldn’t see [doing] this forever—that was—I couldn’t make the WASP. So I went through a lot of paper work there, and was turned down because of my—did we talk about that, the accident, car accident?

BC:Right. And that was why they—

JL:And they uncovered that, and that’s—and so that’s why they turned me down. And I went—yes, that was in Cincinnati in the airport traffic control. I was also up in the tower for a while doing that while they [the WASP] were turning me down. So I finally got something—no, I think I quit. I didn’t have—I didn’t think that was a good answer. I—there was another gal that felt the same way I did. She was also—we were in the same class and got sent to the same place, Cincinnati, daily[?]. So we decided to go for the WASP and to leave that job. So we did, and they weren’t too many people happy about that.

BC:I guess not.

JL:But we did. And we didn’t—well, they would have been. And we heard 00:45:00voices like this, because they put us through all this training and sent us there and everything; I don’t blame them any. But we couldn’t let that stop us from flying.

BC:No, not what you wanted to do was fly.

JL:So, she was from Chicago, where the school was anyway. We put in our resignations and went home. She went to Chicago and I went there, and she was fully planning to do the same thing I did, follow it up, but then she got married instead. [laughter] Never got near—

BC:[laughter] Never—never got to the WASP.

JL:No, never got through the WASP. So, anyway, then I went through this routine I was telling you about, and finally went to Washington and got the okay, and here I am. And why don’t you shut me up?

BC:What was your favorite part about being in the WASP?

JL:Oh, dear. I think the—I’d have to really separate it between the flying and the association, which is two different things. Because it was—it was very enjoyable just being with the group and going through the ground school and all that. I mean, I didn’t mind that at all. It was things that I had done some before, but this was fine. I enjoyed that part of it, you know, living in the base, which were six of us to one and so forth, and the gorgeous uniforms we wore, and the classes and the ground school classes and all that stuff. [End Tape 1, Side B—Begin Tape 2, Side A]

BC:So you finally got your regular uniforms?

JL:Well, when we graduated—not before we graduated—we did. But then the flying, of course, was number one, enjoyed that, and the AT-6 and the final couple months of flying was great, and the cross-country, especially, in the AT-6. We were just flying, and I enjoyed it. [recording paused]

JL:“Zoot Suits and Parachutes.” Are you familiar with that one?

BC:I’ve heard the name, but I just have never actually heard the song.

JL:It was one of the raciest, shall we say. But anyway it went, [singing] “Zoot suits and parachutes and wings of silver, too, silver too. We’ll ferry planes like our husbands used to do” or something—“the guys used to do.” [hums] I don’t remember all the words. But what he’s getting out for me to tell you, sing for you, you won’t really want. I don’t want to give it to you, but I’ll do it anyway. “We’ll ferry planes like our husband used to do.” [hums] “Early in the evening before the break of day, long—,” no, no, that isn’t the start of it. No, cross that out. [tries to figure out the words] “Along came a fellow ferrying a plane, used to fly in lover’s lane.” No. [hums, tries to figure out the words] “Asked me to ride with him down in lover’s lane. And I like a silly fool fearing no harm, climbed into the cockpit to keep the pilot warm. Early in the morning before the break of day, he handed to me this 00:50:00short-snort bill and this I heard him say, ‘You may have a daughter, you may have a son, you may have a—.’” “If you have a daughter, teach her how to fly. If you have son, [puff] in the sky.” [singing parts again] That’s it.

BC:That is a racy song. That’s not for ladies in the 1940s.

JL:Right. [laughter] So, just so you know, there were other things going on once in a while, and actually we weren’t that fond of that type of thing in our group. The whole group was very nice and clean. It was a nice bunch of girls. I enjoyed it very much.

BC:Yes, I bet. So now, when you returned in December of ’44 and were in Minneapolis, where were you when you heard about the end of the war? [pause] Or President Roosevelt’s death?

JL:[pause]Yes. Let’s see, I keep trying to remember. Now the end of the war. I’m thinking about—where was I—because I’m asked so often—where was I at the beginning of the war? [chuckle] I think I told you that, didn’t I?

BC:Right, at the—having a birthday party?

JL:Yes, or something like that. I think I was—no. Let’s see, where was I at the end of the war? I was in—I had moved to California. Oh, no, no, no, I hadn’t, because I flew a long time in Minneapolis, or not in Minneapolis. but out of there. Or whatever, I’ll sell it like it’s a bad [unclear]. You know, I can’t remember where I was before the war was over, but all I know is that it involved the flying.

My dad had a cousin in North Dakota who was a farmer and had a lot of money and bought an airport that was a—it was an extra airport that—I can’t think of it now—up on the border, the Canadian border. The name of the town was [Pembina—added by veteran]—I’m forgetting everything. Anyway, there was an airport owned by Northwest Airlines they used for auxiliary flight—auxiliary airport during the war. And the war was over and it was for sale and he bought it from Northwest Airlines and wanted to start flight school. Guess who was instructor? He called my dad and he said, “I know that your daughter was flying,” and he knew I was in the air—in the WASP. So he said, he told him about buying this airport, which was a very nice airport for a private airport, big enough for to use for training and so forth. So anyway, my father relayed the message to me, and anyway we got together, and he wanted me to go up there and start this flying school. I don’t have any experience starting a flying school, so I said, “Sure, I’ll do it.” [chuckles]

And I had to get a—find a mechanic, buy a couple of airplanes, none of which was in my area of expertise. But I had friends, and you get into it, you find ways. So I bought two airplanes for training and I hired an instructor—well, I didn’t right away. Mechanic, I had to get a mechanic, of course the most important thing at the airport, to see the airplanes kept running and were adequate keep us—to get us down, up and down. So anyway, I got two airplanes and a mechanic. And he knew the whole story, and he went with me to buy airplanes. He knew a lot more about engines than I did, even though I’d gone to ground school. Anyway, we went to—I can’t think of the name of the town. Anyway, 00:55:00we went up there and started a flight school. And my cousin—my dad’s cousin who bought it had his wife and a friend of his wife come up and run the office.

“You know I could find somebody, you know, that’s used to doing this.”

He said, “Oh, no. She wants to come. It’ll be good for her.”

And I said, “She won’t know.”

He said, “Whoa. She’s going to take times they want to fly and make dates and do the bookwork, and isn’t that what you want, somebody to do the bookwork?”

“Well, yes. I won’t time to do bookwork if we have a good reply, response.”

Then the response kept me flying from six in the morning almost until after dark, which was about eight or nine o’clock up there.

BC:Oh, my gosh. That’s a long day.

JL:It was a long day, and I was flying most of them. Of course, you do have to come down and change students. [laughter] Anyway, that’s what we did all that summer. And—well, I’ve skipped over something. In October we’re still flying, beautiful long days up there, and we’re still flying. Until one morning, the snow was up to the—halfway up the—what do you keep an airplane in?

BC:The hangar?

JL:Hangars, hangars. Halfway up the hangars was snow. It isn’t too good to fly if we can’t even get to the airplanes. So of course it was shut down immediately to the students, for the students, so forth, because there was—it would take quite a while. My first question was, of course, how long would it take to clear this out?

BC:Right.

JL:You know, I was thinking four or five days, you know. This is October. In March—March or April, whenever it clears. So just like that, the date up there was—Pembina, Pembina. That’s the town they were in. You’ve probably never heard of it. I didn’t—I hadn’t. Pembina was where this airport was. Anyway, it was right on the border of Canada. And so, that came to an immediate end. And in a few days we were all out of there, and me never to come back. You fly a few months of the year and sit around for the rest of it.

BC:Rest of it, right.

JL:Not for me. In fact, it not only soured me for starting that again in the spring, but for flying, had the same conditions in Minneapolis, anywhere you go in Minnesota. So anyway, it just so happened that my mother was going to visit my—her sister out here in Los Angeles. And she said, “Why don’t you come with me? You can fly.” So I went out for a vacation with my mother. And while I was here, “Hmm, year round flying.”

BC:Very tempting.

JL:So, I started investigating airports and positions, and I got a job almost on the same basis as that first job I had where—when they had enough business, because they already had enough pilots to handle it.

“I can fly.”

“Okay.”

I said, “Fine.” So I went out there and many days didn’t fly. But this didn’t last too long because more people were learning to fly. The war was over and it was almost—in fact, the air company I was flying for, they had a flying school, moved from—this was in a no longer existing airport in East Los Angeles. They moved to Culver City [California] and took me with them as an instructor, and so then I worked with them for several years and they moved—they moved later to on to Santa Monica Airport.

BC:And so this would have been the late forties, early fifties?

JL:Yes. Yes, exactly. In fact, forty—yes, I think we moved from Culver City to Santa Monica, which was known 01:00:00as Santa—No, had a different name then [Clover Field], and then turned into Santa Monica. The same airport where Douglas [Aircraft Company] had their—had a plant right on the side of this. They sent—their pilots came over to fly at Santa Monica quite often. Anyway, where were we? I’m lost. What are we talking about? [chuckles]

BC:You were instructing in Culver City and they moved to Santa Monica.

JL:Oh yes, that’s right. And so I—this was once a flying school for—oh, I don’t know, maybe a year. Anyway, eventually, they were closing because flying at first was very good, then it started dying down—student flying—and the people who were running it were not into aviation at all to start with, and I think they didn’t like the business too well. They were entirely remote in some business downtown that had nothing to do with flying when they bought this flying school. So they were going to close. There just wasn’t enough business.

In the meantime, down the hall, was this instrument instructor in an instrument flying school, and he came up and asked my boss if he could talk to me about switching. And this is a time [when everybody’s out?] and they said, “Well if you jumped after this, we’re going—we’re thinking of quitting.” This was when they were just talking about it. They had other plans and so forth. I went and talked to him for a while and came out with another job. So then I was with him at the instrument school. I did the flying under the hood training, if you know what I’m talking about.

BC:No, what is that?

JL:Well, it’s for—you have to use instruments entirely, and so you put something over there that they couldn’t see with certain glasses but the instructors could. They were open, of course, they’d have to be. They call it the hood. They had to have so many hours under the hood before they took instrument flying, because you have to be able to fly in blind weather and just to rely on the instruments along. So the students—I did so much instrument flying with him and Link trainer flying. You know what a Link trainer is? It’s a big, blue box in the instrument training office, wherever you are in school, where it’s all instruments but no plane. You’re inside the building, inside of a room, but you have—it’s all closed off and they have the instruments. It’s called lots of names, but it’s ground school instructor—instruction. Link trainer is what they call it. Link was—started it, I guess. So anyway, I did Link training. Had to learn how to do that myself. [chuckles] And then the flying instrument training also with him. For two or three years I was with him.

Then I went to Santa Monica Aviation for selling Beechcraft and selling airplanes, no instruction. And but I went there to work for them in a job doing just about everything. And then I came to the end of my career as a flight—as a flier, and began my career as a mother. Well, not quite that fast. [laughter] But I did decide to get married. I flew a while after we were married. But I think we were married in December and I flew until May.

BC:Well, where did you meet your husband?

JL:—the next May. George, I met flying. His father was one of the ones that was flying in that airport in East Los Angeles with—his good friends were well-known acquaintances with him and when they took him over to Santa Monica, his dad went with him, too. He was way above me instructing at this one airport, so we all moved over to Santa Monica. And then George appeared, who had been in the navy. He came home on leave. This was when I was still at East Los Angeles. George Sr. flew him over there with him one day, and that’s where we met was the East 01:05:00Los Angeles airport. He went back. He was on leave, on vacation or something. And he went back and was in the navy. And he went back until he quit the navy. When he came back, went to air force—into the air force training, trainer, and he stayed in the air force for the duration. I mean, he completed twenty years.

BC:And when did you all get married?

JL:In 1953, 1953. And then starting in 1955, we had seven kids.

BC:Did you do any flying during that time?

JL:Well, I was pregnant. Is that what you mean?

BC:[laughs] No, I meant while your family was growing up.

JL:Oh. No, I didn’t. I don’t think I flew. I didn’t fly any as an—as an instructor or as any business. The last flying I did as a job was at Santa Monica. I forgot all about that. When I was with Santa Monica Aviation, one of the customers there was a man who wanted a Beechcraft. And I was flying with him, demonstrating it and so forth. And he had decided that he was going to buy an airplane and learn to fly, because he lived in Beverly Hills [and] had his office in Chicago in this big office building in Chicago. Anyway, I can’t think of the name of it. So he was three weeks in Beverly Hills and three weeks in Chicago and he wanted to fly back and forth. And he attempted to do it himself, but after he took a couple of lessons, he decided it wasn’t for him. So he asked me if I’d be his pilot.

BC:Really?

JL:So I was accompanying pilot in a Beechcraft Bonanza, if you know what that is. I mean, that’s a very nice, wonderful little airplane. I loved it. It’s a four passenger. It’s not anything like I had been flying. Anyway, for a small airplane it was just great, so I did a lot of cross-country flying because I went back. I spent three weeks here and three weeks there for a couple of years flying him. And he’d fly—in each three-week-period he’d fly out of that airport on the coast here, and he’d take all of his friends. He wanted his friends. And then he’d take some business people and then they’d “Well, let’s go here,” on weekends, especially—a lot of times during the week, too. So I not only flew the back and forth every three weeks, but I flew at each end.

BC:In between.

JL:Yes, he’d want to take somebody to—he’d want to go to New York, or he’d want to go—

BC:What a great way to see the country.

JL:Oh yes. New Orleans, we went all over, so it was very enjoyable. He’d bring one or two friends with him almost each time. In fact, at the last several months I was doing that, when George and I were intending, he was instructing. He was in the air force. He was instructing down in Texas. I know where, but I can’t say it. Anyway, on weekends, he’d fly up to see me in Chicago, except in Chicago, a lot of times his [nibs?] would want to go some place. George would find out first. It got to be so that when we were going on a trip, he’d find out first where we were going to be, then he would get one of his students who needed cross country flying, and he would be working, taking his student, and they’d meet us for the weekend wherever we were.

BC:How nice. [chuckles]

JL:It was quite a nice—quite a nice thing. So, he did this several—and then finally—oh, not only he did that quite a few times [phone ringing]. Oh, I know. He’s taking care of that. Somebody keeps calling that he doesn’t want to talk to, and he’s not answering when they call back, after he hung up on them. Anyway, I forgot what I was talking about.

BC:We were talking about your job.

JL:Oh, yes. After George had 01:10:00come and met us several times, my boss, if he had just one, or if he didn’t—if he just wanted to go someplace by himself and he’d ask me to take him, he’d take George with him, too. So I think about—you might not—I might not be here because we’re going so-and-so another, talking to my boss, and I never mentioned anything about that. I didn’t know he would do that, you know. He said, “Why don’t you bring George with you?” And after that, a lot of weekends it’d be George and I with him or maybe one of his friends or business people or something, so it was all a very enjoyable tour I had. And of course I was torn, and guess who won?

BC:[chuckles] It’d be hard to give up all that flying.

JL:Yes, but then I’d had a lot of time by then and I wasn’t getting too young to get married. So I thought I better think about this a little bit, and I decided I wanted to marry him. So I did. End of story.

BC:That’s great. Do you consider yourself to be an independent person?

JL:Oh, dear. What do I do now? [chuckles] Well, I guess so. I don’t know more than anybody, I mean.

BC:Well, do you think that being in the WASP—even though that wasn’t the military at the time—being in the service and—do you think that had any impact on your life or some of the things that you did later on?

JL:I think that probably it had to, because I was doing it for so long. I mean, well, if you go back to just instructing for a school or a—of course, it wasn’t the same, but—What was the question? [chuckles] Well, I think that it had to have some effect on me, because I was introduced to so many people and so many circumstances that I wouldn’t have been or that I hadn’t been, because in the air force, or I mean as a WASP, we never had the same kind of flying, never for pleasure or for—solo time was pleasure, but you know what I’m talking about. That was schooling. And other than that when I was flying, a lot of times—I mean like for the Bonanza for a couple of years at the end; that was business. It wasn’t just—it was flying. It was fun for me, but when I was flying around—flying this guy around as his pilot, even if it was a Beechcraft Bonanza and it wasn’t even a tenth place airplane, I loved it. I’m sure some of that has affected me. I couldn’t tell you why or how, but I don’t think I could go through as many changes as I did, not just one job but different things, without having it affect me in some way.

BC:Did you consider yourself a pioneer or trailblazer when you became a pilot and went into the WASP?

JL:Well, I was about the only one who didn’t, matter of fact [laughter]. No, but I think that this was exaggerated to me, “Oh, you fly an airplane!” And this is something that nobody ever heard of, which wasn’t the case at all. But I mean there were a number of people who weren’t touched by flying at all, in any way, thought that this was—I was extra, extra special because I was flying an airplane, which wasn’t true either. So, you know, I just took it. I got used to it. Some people, “Oh, you fly?” And so we’d come to a gathering or something and they’d heard it from somebody else. “You fly?” Like I am the only woman in the world who flew, with thousands of them out there. There are a lot of them. So anyway, I kind of got to taking it in stride; people that were not associated with it would be aghast. But of course, now it’s common every day. There’s lots of women flying planes.

BC:Were you involved at all in the efforts to militarize the WASP in the seventies?

JL:No, I wish I had been. I didn’t have any association with it. My only contact with them was with Jackie Cochran. I knew that she was starting it, you know, and I wanted to do it, and then I got this report, this first 01:15:00report, and I just kind of thought, “Well, this is it.” And I—I mean, for a while I just bought it and I thought, “That’s it. I’m not going to be able to make it,” and when they—twice they turned me down medically. And I thought, “Well, this is a bummer, and it’s a bummer, but it’s true.” But then I didn’t have to think about it too long before I said, “I’m not giving it up.”

BC:Right.

JL:So it just—if you call that what you named it, go ahead.

BC:Well, when you were in the WASP, you were all still civilians?

JL:Oh, yes.

BC:But in the 1970s—

JL:They changed it.

BC:—WASPS were given military status. What did you make of that?

JL:Well, I—it was an “It’s about time,” kind of thing. We knew that there were people who really had pull who were like Governor Hap—I mean General, General Arnold. And there were other Arnolds—I mean, other people in the air force that associated with him and with Jacqueline Cochran. She knew more than just—she was a good friend of his. But he helped her, but it wasn’t just to help her; he really wanted us in. And he did his best to get it through Congress, but you know how some things in Congress sit for years. Somebody doesn’t want to handle it or there were people that probably thought we shouldn’t be in there. But General Arnold and—who’s—there’s one senator from—What’s his name? Georgia—Colorado, I’m quite sure it was—a senator who really fought for us and he’s well known and I can’t think of his name. [Barry Goldwater]

BC:I can’t either.

JL: But he fought for us and for the thing to pass. And I think there were several people in Washington who were—Hap Arnold, I know did, kept on it until he was [unclear]. I don’t know any of the names, but I know there were a quote “small group” for Washington, but that they kept—Finally Congress realized, when they got it out and looked at it and decided to do something with it, veto it down or whatever or say go, realized that it was a good thing. So I didn’t have anything to do with that because I didn’t have anybody to do with it. Of course, I could have written letters. But a letter from Joan Lyle in California isn’t going to sway anybody in Congress. [laughter] At least nobody’s feelings. So anyway, I don’t know what our big point was, but I hope I—

BC:Oh, you did. I don’t have any more formal questions for you. Is there anything that you would like to add about your flying or your time with the WASP that we didn’t talk about?

JL:[unclear] Pardon me. Would you say that again? I’m sorry, I wasn’t listening too well.

BC:[laughter] I said is there anything else that you’d like to add about your flying or your time in the WASP that we didn’t talk about?

JL: No. No specific thing—just that I enjoyed it tremendously and that I figured that we did help because we had all kinds of jobs, you know? There were a lot of gals that did a lot of delivering of airplanes and instructing certain—in certain planes instructing—I mean—well, yes, checking out that they hadn’t been in a plane they weren’t supposed to fly or something, certain flying jobs and certain other jobs which were combined with those. You know, there weren’t maybe much flying in them but they still—some of the girls stayed in the air force. I mean, or applied for it, I should say, I guess, to be in the air force. When this happened—before it was finally, they—this was an option given to us. We had to apply for to join the air force just like you would any other time, any other place, so some of them did. I said stay in it—go into it, stay in it.

BC:Did you ever think 01:20:00about doing that?

JL:No, I actually didn’t. [coughing] I didn’t because I—well, I don’t know. When I got home and—you know, maybe it did cross my mind sometimes. I never kept it very long though. I don’t know. This thing came along for the flying school quite soon, you know. [coughing]

BC:Excuse me. [recording paused]

JL:I will tonight when I’m in bed. “Why didn’t I do this or why didn’t I say that?” I told you about the incident with the graduation and the pinning with General Arnold. And I told you—and I sang that horrible song for you. [coughing] Don’t tell anybody. [laughter] [coughing] You know, I—I don’t think there’s anything else. You know, I didn’t—in fact, right up until the time when I quit, you know—and George was happy with me continuing flying, so I think he knew how I felt. After we were married even, and you know, maybe some wouldn’t. And I said, “Well, are you sure it’s okay?” and this and that. And I knew he really wanted me to if I wanted to, which I did.

BC:Right.

JL:So I just really—but then as time went on, didn’t you notice it wasn’t very long? About five months I stayed in doing this. I thought, “Gee whiz, I’m getting married. What am I doing here?” And I really wanted to be with him and have a family, so it was a pleasant ending. I had a job I liked and I quit and I didn’t get kicked out, fired or whatever. [coughing] Anyway, so I was—is this still going on there?

BC:Yes.

JL:Oh, dear. I keep forgetting. I don’t have anything I want to say.

BC:That’s okay.

JL:[laughs] No, I can’t think of anything special.

BC:Okay. Well, thank you so much for talking with me this morning.

JL:Well, you’re welcome.

BC:It’s been a pleasure.

JL:If there’s any question you have that you’d particularly like an answer to that I can’t think of now, you’re welcome to say it or ask it.

BC:No, I think we’ve gone through—

JL:Okay.

BC:—all of our questions.

JL:Okay, fine. I don’t want you to quit on me because I won’t answer any more.

BC:[chuckles] No.

JL:Because I would if it—okay.

BC:Thank you. [End of Interview]