00:00:00WOMEN VETERANS HISTORICAL PROJECT
ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE:Dolores Reed
INTERVIEWER:Beth Carmichael
DATE:March 2, 2007
[Note: this interview transcript includes changes made by veteran
post-interview, which are indicated within brackets. An original transcript is
available at the repository.]
[Begin Interview]
BC:Today is May 2, 2007. My name is Beth Carmichael and I’m at the home of
Dolores Reed in Encinitas, California to conduct an oral history interview for
the Betty H. Carter Women Veterans Historical Project at the University of North
Carolina at Greensboro.
Thank you for talking with my today, Mrs. Reed. If you could give me your full
name, we’ll use that as a test of our tape recorder.
DR:Dolores Meurer—M-e-u-r-e-r—Reed.
[recording paused]
BC:Mrs. Reed, I would like to start by talking a little bit about your
background. Can you tell me when and where you were born and about your family
and childhood?
DR:I was born in St. Louis [Missouri] in 1918 during the flu epidemic, and with
my nine lives, that’s the first one was gone. But I grew up, and it was a
regular—This, of course, was during the Depression, but I managed. My dad paid a
dollar to let me fly in an aircraft, [when—changed by veteran] I was
six-years-old, and I [unclear] the equipment in the backseat of a Stenson, and I
could hardly look out the glass window there; I was only six-years-old. And of
course, Lindbergh flew the Atlantic in 1928 and I was ten years old. And I
really had the flying bug at that time.
BC:What did you parents do?
DR:My mother was a housewife. My dad was a printer.
BC:And did the Depression have a big impact on his work?
DR:It certainly did. He was the only one working of all of our friends. Those
were very, very hard times.
BC:What about the rest of your family? Do you have brothers and sisters?
DR: I had three sisters. And I have one still living in Florida and Minnesota,
but the other two have passed.
BC:And did you grow up in St. Louis and go to high school there as well?
DR:Yes, until—until, of course, I went to the WASP [Women Airforce Service
Pilots]. But that was after I had to have thirty-five hours flying time, and it
was difficult getting the eight dollars for a flying lesson in those days. So I
had to do many jobs.
BC:So you started flying when you were in high school or was it after you had graduated?
DR:Sixteen, at sixteen. And I—at that time I was dancing a lot, which kids do,
dance. And I became attached to an agent, and then I started to doing some
modeling. And I was a starlet on a bus promoting a movie or something like
that—odd jobs. So then later on, I needed money for—eight dollars—for flying
lessons, so I became a beautician. And then, of course, I opened a dance studio.
And then prior to going into the WASP, I worked eleven to seven at night, a
third job to make it. Oh, oh it was difficult, but I made it.
BC:Did you think about going to college, or you just knew that you wanted to fly?
DR:I couldn’t. My folks couldn’t afford it and I think that Depression time,
that’s pretty rough. No I—I didn’t go to college.
BC:Where were you and what were you doing when you first heard about Pearl Harbor?
DR:It was on a Sunday, and I was driving out to Webster Groves [Missouri] to
visit a friend, girlfriend, and on the way here came Pearl Harbor. And of
course, the whole country was devastated. Then, of course, that was a turnover
there. The boys went immediately. I was engaged, and he, my fiancée, went off
[to the war in] January. And this, of course, happened in December, so that was
pretty fast.
BC:And what branch did he serve in?
DR:He served in the regular artillery.
BC:Had you—when did you first hear about the WASP?
DR:Well, I had an instructor—my instructor was a woman, Belle Sharr and she
soloed me. And, of course, after eight hours, I was soloed. And then she went
off to the WAFS, which was the Women’s Air [sic, Auxiliary] Ferrying Squadron.
And I told her, I said, “Well, if everything goes right, I’ll be joining you.”
Well, you know, I—she left and I got another instructor, and that’s how I—and
the WAFS became the WASP.
BC:How much flying time did you have before you joined?
DR:Thirty-five hours. You had to have thirty-five hours.
BC:And so can you tell me a little bit about that process of joining?
DR:Well, I got my thirty-five hours, and then the lady who came through St.
Louis for the interview. And of course I went with three other friends. And I
was sent a notice about two and a half months later, and that was that.
BC:And when was that?
DR:That was 1943.
BC:[Nineteen] Forty-three.
DR:Yes. Went to Sweetwater [Texas] to Avenger Field August of 1943, and I
graduated February ’44. W1 was my class.
BC:What did you parents think about your flying and about you joining the WASP?
DR:Well, my mother was very excited and my dad nearly fainted. He thought if we
were meant to fly we should have wings. But anyway, my mother was very eager.
She thought that was great. And then when I soloed, oh my gosh, my dad couldn’t
speak for a day. But that was—but he got over it.
BC:Well, tell me a little bit about training at Avenger Field.
DR:It was difficult. It was hard. And since I had not gone to college, it was
twice as hard. There were many girls there with master’s [degrees]. And then the
man teaching math said, “If you have a master’s it’s going to be pretty easy. If
you just have a degree, you—eh. But then, if you don’t have that, it’s going to
be tough.” And there I sat. But anyway, I made it through.
We had four hours of ground school and then four—like in the morning—then four
hours flying, like in the afternoon. But then that in between time we did
physical stuff. It’s called straddle hop and swimming and running and different
things. And then, of course, we had meals. It was—then we—at the end of the six
months training—at the end we took a solo cross-country [flight].
BC:What was that like?
DR:Well, we thought that we were going to graduate next week and it was a
sentence. All we had to do was fly to California and Texas. Yes, we—Then, of
course, we were not allowed to buzz. Buzzing is coming down and scaring the
cattle and the whole thing. And a week before graduation, we were all caught
buzzing, and supposedly washed out. But the whole class—they couldn’t wash out
the whole class. So one of our classmates was the daughter of the general who
was coming to make the speech at graduation. And then, of course, she had to
graduate, so we were good. But anyway, it was just fun. You let yourself—let
yourself have some fun. The forty-eight of us graduated, and most of them are
passed away now.
BC:Are there any particular incidents or people that stand out for you from your training?
DR:Yes. This one that lived in North Carolina, she—she was officer of the day
[and was doing bed check—added by veteran], and I came home after a party and
having fun with all my roommates, you know.
And she said, “Dolores, keep quiet or I’ll give you a demerit.”
And I said, “Oh, go ahead. Give me ten demerits.”
And she did. And I was up for insubordination. And anyway, I was confined to six
weeks on the post.
BC:And what did that mean?
DR:That meant I couldn’t go away on the weekends off the post, but I did. And I
went—on five weekends I went off the post, and I always had somebody—in
emergency they’d call me in town. The fifth week I was officer of the day, so I
had to be at the post. But I think that was the most—other than that I was very
good. [chuckles]
BC:What did you all do for social life and for fun?
DR:We’d go into Sweetwater, which wasn’t too much in the first place. But we’d
gather and listen to the big band records, have a hamburger, go to a movie, and
then go back to the base.
BC:What was Sweeter—Sweetwater like during the time?
DR:[chuckles] The town? Very dull. Had a hotel and a dry goods store, where you
could—bought the shoes, and that was it. That was it. Now, of course, Sweetwater
is booming like crazy. They want a museum there. They want all these
[reunions]—we’re too old to go back. But they’re boosting our museum there.
BC:Well, that’s great. So how was your graduation?
DR:Well, it was fine. It was my birthday in February of 1944. We had new
uniforms [and we received our “wings”—added by veteran]. That was the first year
of the uniforms.
BC:Can you describe the uniforms?
DR:Well, there’s a picture in there we can see.
BC:Well, why don’t we take a look at those afterwards.
DR:All right. Yes, the uniforms were Jacqueline Cochran—she was pretty
fashionable. What’s the big place in Chicago, big store? Anyway, they came over
and measured every girl, and we had the blue color that were part—I think we’re
like guinea pigs. So we had these nice uniforms, and I had a beret cap. And was
it Marshall Field’s?
BC:Marshall Field’s. [Neiman Marcus in Dallas—corrected by veteran.]
DR:Yes. Anyway, very—we had two sets of uniforms, a summer and a winter. And
after that the whole air force took our color, Santiago blue. So now the whole
air force—we were kind of guinea pigs.
BC:Did you all like the uniforms?
DR:Oh, yes. We had—we had [for] flying we had slacks, an Eisenhower jacket, and
a little kind of a baseball cap. That was for flying. And for dress we had a
beautiful trench coat. I still have it [as well as my dress uniform—added by veteran].
BC:Do you?
DR:Yes.
BC:Did they have anything for off-duty dress?
DR:The one to fly in [or dress uniform—added by veteran.]
BC:Oh, okay.
DR:It was not often. If you were going up, you wore the uniform [If you were not
going to fly, you wore the dress uniform—added by veteran.]
BC:Oh, okay. So you had to wear your uniform wherever you went?
DR:If it was dress. If it was not we—then with our slacks and our battle jacket,
we had a blue—I forget the name of the blue [Santiago]—but it was like the men
wore, a blue shirt with a black tie.
BC:Did you have much interaction with people in Sweetwater?
DR:No. I was very much concerned about graduating. Except once in a while, we’d
have a party.
BC:Well, what did you do after your graduation? Where were you sent?
DR:I was sent to [pause] Moore Field, Mission, Texas, as a tow [target] pilot
for gunnery. And I flew four hours a day, and alternating afternoon-morning. And
went there with [three—changed by veteran] of my classmates, and the one was killed.
BC:Oh no.
DR:I could tell you about that if you want me to.
BC:Sure.
DR:Well, this particular day, we were sitting in the mess hall, and this young
man said, “I would like one of you girls to fly with me.”
And [we—changed by veteran] said, “Okay,” when the afternoon or the morning I
was free.
So okay, I was going to go up that next afternoon, when that morning our
schedules changed. And instead of me flying with that young man, she went. The
wing came off, and she was killed.
BC:Oh my goodness.
DR:And I was towing targets. I was working towing targets. And when I landed, I
went to—I couldn’t eat dinner. I went up to my room and here came the chaplain,
came off the street. And he says “Meurer, I just came to give you the last rites.”
And I said, “Oh, well, I’m sorry, but I’m not sick.”
But anyway, she was killed. And we got a new WASP to join.
BC:Now, I had read that since the WASP were not actually part of the military,
that when something like that happened, other WASP came together to do something
for the family or to help.
DR:Well actually, in our case, they put her in a casket and took her down to the
railroad station, called up Mr. and Mrs. Keene and said, “You daughter’s coming
tomorrow.” That was it.
BC:Oh my goodness.
DR:So then there was only two of us. Well, at that time, there was three. But we
had—we were missing a tow target pilot, and so we couldn’t join [escort] the one
going home. So she had to go—So Mr. and Mrs. Keene went down to the railroad
station to pick her up.
BC:Horrible. Can you tell me a little bit about your work towing targets?
DR:Oh, yes. Well, we had to tow a target about, oh, twenty-five feet long and
about five to six feet high, and it was made like chain link. And we’d sit—I’d
sit in the plane and then there was a GI who had put the target in the plane,
and then up we’d go. And we’d have a stretch, like a stretch of rope to fly. So
the squadron, six of [them]—they were all officers just about to go overseas, to
combat, and this was to, you know, for gunnery practice. Anyway, we’d designate
a place and we’d[the GI would release the target—added by veteran]—I’d be towing
the target back and forth and then here came the six planes, you know,
do-do-do-do [mimicking a gun]. And then after they finished, then I would go
over an auxiliary field, drop the target, land, and the crew chief [GI—corrected
by veteran] would pick it up and roll it back into the yard [plane—corrected by veteran.]
And there was one time there was some Turkish pilots there [for training—added
by veteran], and there was a little lost in the language. [chuckles] And they
were a militant group. And I just closed my eyes. I thought, “Oh, my gosh.” But
it worked out.
BC:Were you ever afraid doing this?
DR:No, never, never. I was afraid to fly with anybody else after that happened
to my classmate. So you never know how they [other pilots] fly.
BC:Right. How long were you at Moore Field?
DR:I was there, I guess—oh, let’s see, [from—changed by veteran] February til
about August. And then I was sent to [fly the] B-26 up in Kingman, Arizona. By
that time I had decided, well, I was no longer engaged. And the man who was
squadron commander for my squad—we alternated—was Bob Reed, and I married him.
So anyway, he was over at Randolph [Air Force Base, Texas] and I was sent to,
gosh, San Marcos [Texas]. I became an administrative pilot in a twin Beech.
That’s—you know what that is. That’s like taking generals that can’t fly
anymore. And [one one trip—added by veteran] I had to go up to Chicago to—some
officers up there landed and broke the landing gear, and I had to go up because
they were going to combat the next day. I had to go and fly a plane so they
could get back to the field, and I stayed with the crippled plane.
And it was exciting because I was coming—the place was closed. The snow was this
high. The airport was closed [except for emergencies—added by veteran], and
coming in for a landing, the tower said—whatever my number was—“Pick up and go
around, you have TWA on fire in the back.” So anyway, I landed, and they took
the plane and [makes a noise] [the officers took my plane as they went off to
combat—added by veteran.] And I had the crippled one. I had a crew chief with me
that had a hose that fixed it, and so it worked out fine.
BC:So then did you fly that plane back?
DR:I flew the plane that had the new hose put on it. [laughter] You know, that
was our job. You know, things that—like when I went to Moore Field and one of
the pilots, tow target pilots, said, “Oh, I’m so glad you’re here. That’s the
most boring job in the world.” And I thought, “Well—.” And he went off to
combat. And I thought, “Well, I did do something good for the war.”
BC:Oh, yes. So when you left Moore Field and you went to B-26 training?
DR:No, I didn’t get to do that. I—it was changed. B-26 was at Kingman. And we
were—no, I was at San Marcos and my fiancée was at Randolph Field, and we
thought that was really good.
BC:What was your job at San Marcos? Were you still towing targets?
DR:No, administrative [pilot].
BC:Oh, that was when you’re—
DR:That was when I was in the twins [engine planes].
BC:Okay. And can you tell me a little bit more about that and what you did?
DR:Administrative? Yes. Well, for one, one of our WASPs was in Georgia or North
Carolina—one of the southern places—and they crashed. They were flying
navigators around and had trouble with the plane, and so the navigators got out
the parachute and the pilot and copilot crashed in the trees. So I was sent to
North Carolina or wherever it was to pick up the girl and the—out of the
hospital now, and to take her back to the [base—changed by veteran]. And so, we
got as far as New Orleans and got stuck there for a week because of the
hurricane, which was fairly nice[?].
BC:A week in New Orleans.
DR:A week in New Orleans. Every morning we’d call up [for the weather
report—added by veteran.] and they’d say, “You can’t go today because of the
weather.” We’d just [say], “Okay.” And we were running out of clean shirts
there. We were using the soiled one. In those days it wasn’t nylon, it was
cotton. And that was—that turned out to be—and then, this I said, I went up to
Chicago to get those two guys to combat—no, it was four guys to combat. And took
a general to some meeting of some kind. Just things like that.
BC:So your main job was—
DR:A taxi. [chuckles]
BC:Right. Basically to transport people and fly wherever they needed you to go.
DR:That’s right.
BC:Bring planes or bring people back.
DR:Right, yes.
BC:And how long did you stay there?
DR:That was from up until the time of deactivation, which was December 15, 25,
something, 20, something like that.
BC:How did you all hear about that?
DR:Deactivation? Well they said, “Get ready to leave.” And, of course, we were
not—we were not in the air force at that time. We were just civil servants. So
we were a little bit ticked off; to dump us just like that. Of course, the
airlines, we thought—the airlines didn’t want [female] pilots. They wanted us to
be ticket people. We said, “No, absolutely not.” Anyway, we went home. Two weeks
later I was married to my [husband, Bob Reed—added by veteran]—he was then up in
Chicago at the university. There for teaching something. And so we got married
in St. Louis. Lived happily until thirty-four years ago, he died.
BC:What was your most memorable thing about your service in the WASP?
DR:Getting my wings. And not washing out, you know. They didn’t give you a
second, third, [or—changed by veteran] fourth chance. You went out for a check
ride and got a pink slip—you got a check-ride with the army air force pilot, and
if he said no, you were out that evening. It wasn’t that you had three days to
pack; you just had to—and out came the cot. You can see on those pictures. The
cot was pulled on the porch and you’d say, “Uh oh. There goes another one.”
BC:And that happened a lot didn’t it?
DR:Well, there were fifty-two out of our class.
BC:Were washed out?
DR:Were washed out.
BC:What did you think about President and Eleanor Roosevelt during the war?
DR:Loved them. Eleanor was just peachy. She spoke well. And, of course,
Franklin, he—when Pearl Harbor came along, it was all the way then, you know.
And then he got the people together. At that time, women were riveting and doing
all kinds of things [for the war—added by veteran]. And all the men were
practically all gone. And it was a tough time, and he got us through. I loved
her. She was a—she was not a beauty queen, but she certainly spoke well.
BC:So after the WASP disbanded, you were married in early 1945?
DR:Forty—’44. Got married January—got home in December and January 21 we were married.
BC:And what did you do then?
DR:Well he—we went off to Texas—Austin, Texas. He was going to go up to the
university to become an architect, which he did. And of course, I was pregnant
with my first baby. So we got a—I forget—$104 a month, I think something like
that, and he worked at night drawing plans. And then we bought an airplane. The
last $1,200 we ever had. And he, my husband said, “But that’s the last money we have.”
And I said, “If that’s—.”
He said, “That’s the only money we have.”
And I said, “If that’s the last $1,200 that we’re ever going to have, we’re in
bad shape.”
But we bought an airplane, and then after my baby was born, two weeks later, I
went out to fly it. Well, it was a navy [surplus—added by veteran] plane, and I
took it off, and all the instruments were off. So I flew it around and landed it
without anything but fear. [unclear] [chuckles] Anyway, I got out of that plane,
and I said, “I am not going to fly until my youngest child is old enough to take
care of himself.” So I had [three—changed by veteran] more children. I didn’t
fly for twenty-two years. And then I got my—Well, okay. So I started air racing
[when my children were older—changed by veteran].
BC:Really?
DR:So I started that and that was fun. And I have several trophies, but I—about
eight years ago I flew my last race. I won it and I quit.
BC:[laughs] That’s a good way to finish up.
DR:Yes.
BC:Can you tell me a little bit more about air racing and what that is?
DR: Oh, yes. It was fun. It was certainly not as powerful planes as we—well, we
flew faster and stronger [larger--changed by veteran] planes in the air force.
These are [usually—added by veteran] Cessnas and the—[private—added by veteran]
smaller planes. And so I flew for a long time with friends of mine. She owned a
big flying school so we’d always fly one of her dainty airplanes. Always came in
seventh or fifteenth or something like that. So the last race I insisted on a
better air plane. And by golly, we won it. And I said, “Okay, that’s enough of
that. I’ve done that now.” And I flew up in a balloon. And I flew—I did some
hang gliding. I flew the airship [blimp], you know, MetLife or whatever it is,
with the big wheel. Flew it for fifteen minutes. [chuckles] I’m proud. I sold my
airplane about five years ago. And that’s it. I’m limping around [with a
cane—changed by veteran] now.
BC:What was your favorite plane to fly?
DR:The P-40. The AT-6, that’s the one that we trained in. Then, the twin Beech
[AT-7 and AT-11 with 250—changed by veteran] horsepower. I liked that. It was—it
was nice.
BC:What was the hardest thing that you had to do physically while you were in
the WASP?
DR:Chinning myself.
BC:Chinning?
DR:Yes. Well, we’d have to take—
BC:Like pull-ups?
DR:Pull-ups, yes. But it worked out.
BC:What about emotionally?
DR:Oh, emotionally. We’d get up. We’d have, what, reveille at 6:00 and off to
the mess hall. And eating breakfast, you didn’t know whether you were going to
be there at night for dinner. And it was stress.
BC:So that was something that you were really always thinking about, the
possibility that you might—
DR:Was thinking about it, absolutely. It was on your mind all the time.
BC:For a full six months.
DR:For a full six months. Because you could get washed out for flying mostly. I
mean, they—I remember my first flight with a check pilot, air force check pilot.
He was noted for washing out. It’s why they called him [Lieutenant—changed by
veteran] Maytag, because he a washing machine. So I really thought, oh boy, I
thought I was Amelia Earhart, and I—golly. So after a week, the primary
[airplane], which is, oh, maybe 180 horsepower—I don’t know. And took that up
and I thought—oh, my mother said, “Dolores, I know you can fly.” I said “she
never flew with me.” She—because I would think of flying all the time. And so
anyway, he took me up. He said do a chandelle. I used to [fly with—changed by
veteran] the other pilots on the field, if they were going to get their
commercial [license], I would carry the weight that the check pilot would be. So
they would do the chandelles and the lazy eights and everything. And I kind of
knew he wasn’t supposed to check me on that.
But he said, “Do a chandelles and [unclear]” you know, whatever.
And okay, I thought, “Geez, I’m just the greatest pilot.” And I got down, I
said, “Well, how’d I do?”
He said, “You’re not going to kill yourself.” [laughs]
So that’s about the best he could do. But he didn’t—I passed.
BC:How did most of the check pilots respond to the WASP and female pilots?
DR:Well, they were very nice. And they did everything they could. You’re talking
about instructors?
BC:Yes.
DR:Or the check pilots—the air force pilots were—they were not too happy to
be—for what they did, they were put to a girls’ school there, and they didn’t
think that was great. But they were fair. Sure washed out a lot of them.
BC:Did you ever have any problems with a male pilot who didn’t think women
should be flying?
DR:No. I never did. When I was at Moore Field, the officers who were going off
to combat, they were all very nice.
BC:Did you have any heroes or heroines during this time? Any particular people
you admired?
DR:Well, I admired Jacqueline Cochran for what she did [for us—added by veteran].
BC:Did you ever get to meet her?
DR:Oh, yes. I got a picture in there where she’s hugging me.
BC:What was she like?
DR:Well, she was—she grew up in the South barefoot, picking cotton, and brought
herself up to being a scrub girl at a beauty shop, and they sent her so she
became a beauty person. And then she started in Chicago with her oils and things
like that, and that’s how she met Floyd Odlum, the richest man in the world.
[chuckles] But she was—she was a real great person. Had us out to her place in
Palm Springs and had us for lunch and she was there cutting the cheese. Very
cute. Great gal.
I really admired—I’m not too sure—I admired Amelia Earhart as much as Cochran.
But the heroines—I can’t say that there were not heroines in our class in school.
BC:Do you consider yourself a pioneer for having entered the service and being a pilot?
DR:Breaking—breaking the, what they called, the ceiling of the women.
BC:Right.
DR:Yes. As a matter of fact, I’ve been to the air academy [United States Air
Force Academy] in Denver [Colorado] and we have a statue there. We were there a
year and a half ago for the ceremony. Every one of those women and the women who
have graduated and are now flying F-15s in Iraq, have come up to us [unclear]
and say, “We appreciate the breakthrough that you did.” Of course, we didn’t fly
jets, F-18s, but we were pioneers.
BC:Did you feel that way at the time?
DR:No. I was just glad to get paid for flying.
BC:What was it about flying that you liked so much?
DR:Well, as I said, when I was six years old, I went up, landed, and I couldn’t
even look out. And I thought, “When I grow up—.” And then when Lindbergh—he
impressed me. And I read every book in the library about flying. I actually knew
how to fly some of the instruments that they had at that time just by reading.
BC:That’s great. Well, I don’t have any more formal questions. Is there anything
that we didn’t talk about that you’d like to add? Any other stories or people
that were important?
DR:Well, I have three children, five grandchildren, and I just recently got a great-grandson.
BC:That’s wonderful.
DR:My son is a—went to Embry-Riddle [Aeronautical University]. He’s a private
pilot, one of my sons.
BC:That’s great.
DR:And my husband was a very good pilot, a natural. And anyway, that was very
happy memories. I’ve been a widow thirty-four years. [pause] Keep going.
BC:Well, great. Thank you so much for talking with me.
DR:You’re welcome.
BC:I appreciate it.
DR:Do you have any more questions?
BC:No, I think we’ve covered it.
DR:Oh.
BC:Thank you.
DR:Nice meeting you and—
[End of Interview]
00:05:00WOMEN VETERANS HISTORICAL PROJECT
ORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE:Dolores Reed
INTERVIEWER:Beth Carmichael
DATE:March 2, 2007
[Note: this interview transcript includes changes made by veteran
post-interview, which are indicated within brackets. An original transcript is
available at the repository.]
[Begin Interview]
BC:Today is May 2, 2007. My name is Beth Carmichael and I’m at the home of
Dolores Reed in Encinitas, California to conduct an oral history interview for
the Betty H. Carter Women Veterans Historical Project at the University of North
Carolina at Greensboro.
Thank you for talking with my today, Mrs. Reed. If you could give me your full
name, we’ll use that as a test of our tape recorder.
DR:Dolores Meurer—M-e-u-r-e-r—Reed.
[recording paused]
BC:Mrs. Reed, I would like to start by talking a little bit about your
background. Can you tell me when and where you were born and about your family
and childhood?
DR:I was born in St. Louis [Missouri] in 1918 during the flu epidemic, and with
my nine lives, that’s the first one was gone. But I grew up, and it was a
regular—This, of course, was during the Depression, but I managed. My dad paid a
dollar to let me fly in an aircraft, [when—changed by veteran] I was
six-years-old, and I [unclear] the equipment in the backseat of a Stenson, and I
could hardly look out the glass window there; I was only six-years-old. And of
course, Lindbergh flew the Atlantic in 1928 and I was ten years old. And I
really had the flying bug at that time.
BC:What did you parents do?
DR:My mother was a housewife. My dad was a printer.
BC:And did the Depression have a big impact on his work?
DR:It certainly did. He was the only one working of all of our friends. Those
were very, very hard times.
BC:What about the rest of your family? Do you have brothers and sisters?
DR: I had three sisters. And I have one still living in Florida and Minnesota,
but the other two have passed.
BC:And did you grow up in St. Louis and go to high school there as well?
DR:Yes, until—until, of course, I went to the WASP [Women Airforce Service
Pilots]. But that was after I had to have thirty-five hours flying time, and it
was difficult getting the eight dollars for a flying lesson in those days. So I
had to do many jobs.
BC:So you started flying when you were in high school or was it after you had graduated?
DR:Sixteen, at sixteen. And I—at that time I was dancing a lot, which kids do,
dance. And I became attached to an agent, and then I started to doing some
modeling. And I was a starlet on a bus promoting a movie or something like
that—odd jobs. So then later on, I needed money for—eight dollars—for flying
lessons, so I became a beautician. And then, of course, I opened a dance studio.
And then prior to going into the WASP, I worked eleven to seven at night, a
third job to make it. Oh, oh it was difficult, but I made it.
BC:Did you think about going to college, or you just knew that you wanted to fly?
DR:I couldn’t. My folks couldn’t afford it
and I think that Depression time, that’s pretty rough. No I—I didn’t go to college.
BC:Where were you and what were you doing when you first heard about Pearl Harbor?
DR:It was on a Sunday, and I was driving out to Webster Groves [Missouri] to
visit a friend, girlfriend, and on the way here came Pearl Harbor. And of
course, the whole country was devastated. Then, of course, that was a turnover
there. The boys went immediately. I was engaged, and he, my fiancée, went off
[to the war in] January. And this, of course, happened in December, so that was
pretty fast.
BC:And what branch did he serve
in?
DR:He served in the regular artillery.
BC:Had you—when did you first hear about the WASP?
DR:Well, I had an instructor—my instructor was a woman, Belle Sharr and she
soloed me. And, of course, after eight hours, I was soloed. And then she went
off to the WAFS, which was the Women’s Air [sic, Auxiliary] Ferrying Squadron.
And I told her, I said, “Well, if everything goes right, I’ll be joining you.”
Well, you know, I—she left and I got another instructor, and that’s how I—and
the WAFS became the WASP.
BC:How much flying time did you have before you joined?
DR:Thirty-five hours. You had to have thirty-five hours.
BC:And so can you tell me a little bit about that process of joining?
DR:Well, I got my thirty-five hours, and then the lady who came through St.
Louis for the interview. And of course I went with three other friends. And I
was sent a notice about two and a half months later, and that was that.
BC:And when was that?
DR:That was 1943.
BC:[Nineteen] Forty-three.
DR:Yes. Went to Sweetwater [Texas] to Avenger Field August of 1943, and I
graduated February ’44. W1 was my class.
BC:What did you parents think about your flying and about you joining the WASP?
DR:Well, my mother was very excited and my dad nearly fainted. He thought if we
were meant to fly we should have wings. But anyway, my mother was very eager.
She thought that was great. And then when I soloed, oh my gosh, my dad couldn’t
speak for a day. But that was—but he got over it.
BC:Well, tell me a little bit about training at Avenger Field.
DR:It was difficult. It was hard. And since I had not gone to college, it was
twice as hard. There were many girls there with master’s [degrees]. And then the
man teaching math said, “If you have a master’s it’s going to be pretty easy. If
you just have a degree, you—eh. But then, if you don’t have that, it’s going to
be tough.” And there I sat. But anyway, I made it through.
We had four hours of ground school and then four—like in the morning—then four
hours flying, like in the afternoon. But then that in between time we did
physical stuff. It’s called straddle hop and swimming and running and different
things. And then, of course, we had meals. It was—then we—at the end of the six
months training—at the end we took a solo cross-country [flight].
BC:What was that like?
DR:Well, we thought that we were going to graduate next week and it was a
sentence. All we had to do was fly to California and Texas. Yes, we—Then, of
course, we were not allowed to buzz. Buzzing is coming down and scaring the
cattle and the whole thing. And a week before graduation, we were all caught
buzzing, and supposedly washed out. But the whole class—they couldn’t wash out
the whole class. So one of our classmates was the daughter of the general who
was coming to make the speech at graduation. And then, of course, she had to
graduate, so we were good. But
anyway, it was just fun. You let yourself—let yourself have some fun. The
forty-eight of us graduated, and most of them are passed away now.
BC:Are there any particular incidents or people that stand out for you from your training?
DR:Yes. This one that lived in North Carolina, she—she was officer of the day
[and was doing bed check—added by veteran], and I came home after a party and
having fun with all my roommates, you know.
And she said, “Dolores, keep quiet or I’ll give you a demerit.”
And I said, “Oh, go ahead. Give me ten demerits.”
And she did. And I was up for insubordination. And anyway, I was confined to six
weeks on the post.
BC:And what did that mean?
DR:That meant I couldn’t go away on the weekends off the post, but I did. And I
went—on five weekends I went off the post, and I always had somebody—in
emergency they’d call me in town. The fifth week I was officer of the day, so I
had to be at the post. But I think that was the most—other than that I was very
good. [chuckles]
BC:What did you all do for social life and for fun?
DR:We’d go into Sweetwater, which wasn’t too much in the first place. But we’d
gather and listen to the big band records, have a hamburger, go to a movie, and
then go back to the base.
BC:What was Sweeter—Sweetwater like during the time?
DR:[chuckles] The town? Very dull. Had a hotel and a dry goods store, where you
could—bought the shoes, and that was it. That was it. Now, of course, Sweetwater
is booming like crazy. They want a museum there. They want all these
[reunions]—we’re too old to go back. But they’re boosting our museum there.
BC:Well, that’s great. So how was your graduation?
DR:Well, it was fine. It was my birthday in February of 1944. We had new
uniforms [and we received our “wings”—added by veteran]. That was the first year
of the uniforms.
BC:Can you describe the uniforms?
DR:Well, there’s a picture in there we can see.
BC:Well, why don’t we take a look at those afterwards.
DR:All right. Yes, the uniforms were Jacqueline Cochran—she was pretty
fashionable. What’s the big place in Chicago, big store? Anyway, they came over
and measured every girl, and we had the blue color that were part—I think we’re
like guinea pigs. So we had these nice uniforms, and I had a beret cap. And was
it Marshall Field’s?
BC:Marshall Field’s. [Neiman Marcus in Dallas—corrected by veteran.]
DR:Yes. Anyway, very—we had two sets of uniforms, a summer and a winter. And
after that the whole air force took our color, Santiago blue. So now the whole
air force—we were kind of guinea pigs.
BC:Did you all like the uniforms?
DR:Oh, yes. We had—we had [for] flying we had slacks, an Eisenhower jacket, and
a little kind of a baseball cap. That was for flying. And for dress we had a
beautiful trench coat. I still have it [as well as my dress uniform—added by veteran].
BC:Do you?
DR:Yes.
BC:Did they have anything for off-duty dress?
DR:The one to fly in [or dress uniform—added by veteran.]
BC:Oh, okay.
DR:It was not often. If you were going up, you wore the uniform [If you were not
going to fly, you wore the dress uniform—added by veteran.]
BC:Oh, okay. So you had to wear your uniform wherever you went?
DR:If it was dress. If it was not we—then
with our slacks and our battle jacket, we had a blue—I forget the name of the
blue [Santiago]—but it was like the men wore,
a blue shirt with a black tie.
BC:Did you have much interaction with people in Sweetwater?
DR:No. I was very much concerned about graduating. Except once in a while, we’d
have a party.
BC:Well, what did you do after your graduation? Where were you sent?
DR:I was sent to [pause] Moore Field, Mission, Texas, as a tow [target] pilot
for gunnery. And I flew four hours a day, and alternating afternoon-morning. And
went there with [three—changed by veteran] of my classmates, and the one was killed.
BC:Oh no.
DR:I could tell you about that if you want me to.
BC:Sure.
DR:Well, this particular day, we were sitting in the mess hall, and this young
man said, “I would like one of you girls to fly with me.”
And [we—changed by veteran] said, “Okay,” when the afternoon or the morning I
was free.
So okay, I was going to go up that next afternoon, when that morning our
schedules changed. And instead of me flying with that young man, she went. The
wing came off, and she was killed.
BC:Oh my goodness.
DR:And I was towing targets. I was working towing targets. And when I landed, I
went to—I couldn’t eat dinner. I went up to my room and here came the chaplain,
came off the street. And he says “Meurer, I just came to give you the last rites.”
And I said, “Oh, well, I’m sorry, but I’m not sick.”
But anyway, she was killed. And we got a new WASP to join.
BC:Now, I had read that since the WASP were not actually part of the military,
that when something like that happened, other WASP came together to do something
for the family or to help.
DR:Well actually, in our case, they put her in a casket and took her down to the
railroad station, called up Mr. and Mrs. Keene and said, “You daughter’s coming
tomorrow.” That was it.
BC:Oh my goodness.
DR:So then there was only two of us. Well, at that time, there was three. But we
had—we were missing a tow target pilot, and so we couldn’t join [escort] the one
going home. So she had to go—So Mr. and Mrs. Keene went down to the railroad
station to pick her up.
BC:Horrible. Can you tell me a little bit about your work towing targets?
DR:Oh, yes. Well, we had to tow a target about, oh, twenty-five feet long and
about five to six feet high, and it was made like chain link. And we’d sit—I’d
sit in the plane and then there was a GI who had put the target in the plane,
and then up we’d go. And we’d have a stretch, like a stretch of rope to fly. So
the squadron, six of [them]—they were all officers just about to go overseas, to
combat, and this was to, you know, for gunnery practice. Anyway, we’d designate
a place and we’d[the GI would release the target—added by veteran]—I’d be towing
the target back and forth and then here came the six planes, you know,
do-do-do-do [mimicking a gun]. And then after they finished, then I would go
over an auxiliary field, drop the target, land, and the crew chief [GI—corrected
by veteran] would pick it up and roll it back into the yard [plane—corrected by veteran.]
And there was one time there was some Turkish pilots there [for training—added
by veteran], and there was a little lost in the language. [chuckles] And they
were a militant group. And
I just closed my eyes. I thought, “Oh, my gosh.” But it worked out.
BC:Were
you ever afraid doing this?
DR:No, never, never. I was afraid to fly with anybody else after that happened
to my classmate. So you never know how they [other pilots] fly.
BC:Right. How long were you at Moore Field?
DR:I was there, I guess—oh, let’s see, [from—changed by veteran] February til
about August. And then I was sent to [fly the] B-26 up in Kingman, Arizona. By
that time I had decided, well, I was no longer engaged. And the man who was
squadron commander for my squad—we alternated—was Bob Reed, and I married him.
So anyway, he was over at Randolph [Air Force Base, Texas] and I was sent to,
gosh, San Marcos [Texas]. I became an administrative pilot in a twin Beech.
That’s—you know what that is. That’s like taking generals that can’t fly
anymore. And [one one trip—added by veteran] I had to go up to Chicago to—some
officers up there landed and broke the landing gear, and I had to go up because
they were going to combat the next day. I had to go and fly a plane so they
could get back to the field, and I stayed with the crippled plane.
And it was exciting because I was coming—the place was closed. The snow was this
high. The airport was closed [except for emergencies—added by veteran], and
coming in for a landing, the tower said—whatever my number was—“Pick up and go
around, you have TWA on fire in the back.” So anyway, I landed, and they took
the plane and [makes a noise] [the officers took my plane as they went off to
combat—added by veteran.] And I had the crippled one. I had a crew chief with me
that had a hose that fixed it, and so it worked out fine.
BC:So then did you fly that plane back?
DR:I flew the plane that had the new hose put on it. [laughter] You know, that
was our job. You know, things that—like when I went to Moore Field and one of
the pilots, tow target pilots, said, “Oh, I’m so glad you’re here. That’s the
most boring job in the world.” And I thought, “Well—.” And he went off to
combat. And I thought, “Well, I did do something good for the war.”
BC:Oh, yes. So when you left Moore Field and you went to B-26 training?
DR:No, I didn’t get to do that. I—it was changed. B-26 was at Kingman. And we
were—no, I was at San Marcos and my fiancée was at Randolph Field, and we
thought that was really good.
BC:What was your job at San Marcos? Were you still towing targets?
DR:No, administrative [pilot].
BC:Oh, that was when you’re—
DR:That was when I was in the twins [engine planes].
BC:Okay. And can you tell me a little bit more about that and what you did?
DR:Administrative? Yes. Well, for one, one of our WASPs was in Georgia or North
Carolina—one of the southern places—and they crashed. They were flying
navigators around and had trouble with the plane, and so the navigators got out
the parachute and the pilot and copilot crashed in the trees. So I was sent to
North Carolina or wherever it was to pick up the girl and the—out of the
hospital now, and to take her back to the [base—changed by veteran]. And so, we
got as far as New Orleans and got stuck there for a week because of the
hurricane, which was fairly nice[?].
BC:A week in New Orleans.
DR:A week in New Orleans. Every morning we’d call up [for the weather
report—added by veteran.] and they’d say, “You can’t go today because of the
weather.” We’d just [say], “Okay.” And
we were running out of clean shirts there. We were using the soiled
one. In those days it wasn’t nylon, it was cotton. And that was—that turned out
to be—and then, this I said, I went up to Chicago to get those two guys to
combat—no, it was four guys to combat. And took a general to some meeting of
some kind. Just things like that.
BC:So your main job was—
DR:A taxi. [chuckles]
BC:Right. Basically to transport people and fly wherever they needed you to go.
DR:That’s right.
BC:Bring planes or bring people back.
DR:Right, yes.
BC:And how long did you stay there?
DR:That was from up until the time of deactivation, which was December 15, 25,
something, 20, something like that.
BC:How did you all hear about that?
DR:Deactivation? Well they said, “Get ready to leave.” And, of course, we were
not—we were not in the air force at that time. We were just civil servants. So
we were a little bit ticked off; to dump us just like that. Of course, the
airlines, we thought—the airlines didn’t want [female] pilots. They wanted us to
be ticket people. We said, “No, absolutely not.” Anyway, we went home. Two weeks
later I was married to my [husband, Bob Reed—added by veteran]—he was then up in
Chicago at the university. There for teaching something. And so we got married
in St. Louis. Lived happily until thirty-four years ago, he died.
BC:What was your most memorable thing about your service in the WASP?
DR:Getting my wings. And not washing out, you know. They didn’t give you a
second, third, [or—changed by veteran] fourth chance. You went out for a check
ride and got a pink slip—you got a check-ride with the army air force pilot, and
if he said no, you were out that evening. It wasn’t that you had three days to
pack; you just had to—and out came the cot. You can see on those pictures. The
cot was pulled on the porch and you’d say, “Uh oh. There goes another one.”
BC:And that happened a lot didn’t it?
DR:Well, there were fifty-two out of our class.
BC:Were washed out?
DR:Were washed out.
BC:What did you think about President and Eleanor Roosevelt during the war?
DR:Loved them. Eleanor was just peachy. She spoke well. And, of course,
Franklin, he—when Pearl Harbor came along, it was all the way then, you know.
And then he got the people together. At that time, women were riveting and doing
all kinds of things [for the war—added by veteran]. And all the men were
practically all gone. And it was a tough time, and he got us through. I loved
her. She was a—she was not a beauty queen, but she certainly spoke well.
BC:So after the WASP disbanded, you were married in early 1945?
DR:Forty—’44. Got married January—got home in December and January 21 we were married.
BC:And what did you do then?
DR:Well he—we went off to Texas—Austin, Texas. He was going to go up to the
university to become an architect, which he did. And of course, I was pregnant
with my first baby. So we got a—I forget—$104 a month, I think something like
that, and he
worked at night drawing plans. And then we bought an airplane. The last $1,200
we ever had.
And he, my husband said, “But that’s the last money we have.”
And I said, “If that’s—.”
He said, “That’s the only money we have.”
And I said, “If that’s the last $1,200 that we’re ever going to have, we’re in
bad shape.”
But we bought an airplane, and then after my baby was born, two weeks later, I
went out to fly it. Well, it was a navy [surplus—added by veteran] plane, and I
took it off, and all the instruments were off. So I flew it around and landed it
without anything but fear. [unclear] [chuckles] Anyway, I got out of that plane,
and I said, “I am not going to fly until my youngest child is old enough to take
care of himself.” So I had [three—changed by veteran] more children. I didn’t
fly for twenty-two years. And then I got my—Well, okay. So I started air racing
[when my children were older—changed by veteran].
BC:Really?
DR:So I started that and that was fun. And I have several trophies, but I—about
eight years ago I flew my last race. I won it and I quit.
BC:[laughs] That’s a good way to finish up.
DR:Yes.
BC:Can you tell me a little bit more about air racing and what that is?
DR: Oh, yes. It was fun. It was certainly not as powerful planes as we—well, we
flew faster and stronger [larger--changed by veteran] planes in the air force.
These are [usually—added by veteran] Cessnas and the—[private—added by veteran]
smaller planes. And so I flew for a long time with friends of mine. She owned a
big flying school so we’d always fly one of her dainty airplanes. Always came in
seventh or fifteenth or something like that. So the last race I insisted on a
better air plane. And by golly, we won it. And I said, “Okay, that’s enough of
that. I’ve done that now.” And I flew up in a balloon. And I flew—I did some
hang gliding. I flew the airship [blimp], you know, MetLife or whatever it is,
with the big wheel. Flew it for fifteen minutes. [chuckles] I’m proud. I sold my
airplane about five years ago. And that’s it. I’m limping around [with a
cane—changed by veteran] now.
BC:What was your favorite plane to fly?
DR:The P-40. The AT-6, that’s the one that we trained in. Then, the twin Beech
[AT-7 and AT-11 with 250—changed by veteran] horsepower. I liked that. It was—it
was nice.
BC:What was the hardest thing that you had to do physically while you were in
the WASP?
DR:Chinning myself.
BC:Chinning?
DR:Yes. Well, we’d have to take—
BC:Like pull-ups?
DR:Pull-ups, yes. But it worked out.
BC:What about emotionally?
DR:Oh, emotionally. We’d get up. We’d have, what, reveille at 6:00 and off to
the mess hall. And eating breakfast, you didn’t know whether you were going to
be there at night for dinner. And it was stress.
BC:So that was something that you were really always thinking about, the
possibility that you might—
DR:Was thinking about it, absolutely. It was on your mind all the time.
BC:For a full six months.
DR:For a full six months. Because you could get washed out for flying mostly. I
mean, they—I remember my first flight with a check pilot, air force check pilot.
He was noted for washing out. It’s why they called him [Lieutenant—changed by
veteran] Maytag, because he a washing machine. So I really thought, oh boy,
I thought I was Amelia Earhart, and I—golly. So after a week, the primary
[airplane], which is, oh, maybe
180 horsepower—I don’t know. And took that up and I thought—oh, my mother said,
“Dolores, I know you can fly.” I said “she never flew with me.” She—because I
would think of flying all the time. And so anyway, he took me up. He said do a
chandelle. I used to [fly with—changed by veteran] the other pilots on the
field, if they were going to get their commercial [license], I would carry the
weight that the check pilot would be. So they would do the chandelles and the
lazy eights and everything. And I kind of knew he wasn’t supposed to check me on that.
But he said, “Do a chandelles and [unclear]” you know, whatever.
And okay, I thought, “Geez, I’m just the greatest pilot.” And I got down, I
said, “Well, how’d I do?”
He said, “You’re not going to kill yourself.” [laughs]
So that’s about the best he could do. But he didn’t—I passed.
BC:How did most of the check pilots respond to the WASP and female pilots?
DR:Well, they were very nice. And they did everything they could. You’re talking
about instructors?
BC:Yes.
DR:Or the check pilots—the air force pilots were—they were not too happy to
be—for what they did, they were put to a girls’ school there, and they didn’t
think that was great. But they were fair. Sure washed out a lot of them.
BC:Did you ever have any problems with a male pilot who didn’t think women
should be flying?
DR:No. I never did. When I was at Moore Field, the officers who were going off
to combat, they were all very nice.
BC:Did you have any heroes or heroines during this time? Any particular people
you admired?
DR:Well, I admired Jacqueline Cochran for what she did [for us—added by veteran].
BC:Did you ever get to meet her?
DR:Oh, yes. I got a picture in there where she’s hugging me.
BC:What was she like?
DR:Well, she was—she grew up in the South barefoot, picking cotton, and brought
herself up to being a scrub girl at a beauty shop, and they sent her so she
became a beauty person. And then she started in Chicago with her oils and things
like that, and that’s how she met Floyd Odlum, the richest man in the world.
[chuckles] But she was—she was a real great person. Had us out to her place in
Palm Springs and had us for lunch and she was there cutting the cheese. Very
cute. Great gal.
I really admired—I’m not too sure—I admired Amelia Earhart as much as Cochran.
But the heroines—I can’t say that there were not heroines in our class in school.
BC:Do you consider yourself a pioneer for having entered the service and being a pilot?
DR:Breaking—breaking the, what they called, the ceiling of the women.
BC:Right.
DR:Yes. As a matter of fact, I’ve been to the air academy [United States Air
Force Academy] in Denver [Colorado] and we have a statue there. We were there a
year and a half ago for the ceremony. Every one of those women and the women who
have graduated and are now flying F-15s in Iraq, have come up to us [unclear]
and say, “We
appreciate the breakthrough that you did.” Of course, we didn’t fly jets, F-18s,
but we were pioneers.
BC:Did you feel that way at the time?
DR:No. I was just glad to get paid for flying.
BC:What was it about flying that you liked so much?
DR:Well, as I said, when I was six years old, I went up, landed, and I couldn’t
even look out. And I thought, “When I grow up—.” And then when Lindbergh—he
impressed me. And I read every book in the library about flying. I actually knew
how to fly some of the instruments that they had at that time just by reading.
BC:That’s great. Well, I don’t have any more formal questions. Is there anything
that we didn’t talk about that you’d like to add? Any other stories or people
that were important?
DR:Well, I have three children, five grandchildren, and I just recently got a great-grandson.
BC:That’s wonderful.
DR:My son is a—went to Embry-Riddle [Aeronautical University]. He’s a private
pilot, one of my sons.
BC:That’s great.
DR:And my husband was a very good pilot, a natural. And anyway, that was very
happy memories. I’ve been a widow thirty-four years. [pause] Keep going.
BC:Well, great. Thank you so much for talking with me.
DR:You’re welcome.
BC:I appreciate it.
DR:Do you have any more questions?
BC:No, I think we’ve covered it.
DR:Oh.
BC:Thank you.
DR:Nice meeting you and—
[End of Interview]
