00:00:00WOMEN VETERANS HISTORICAL PROJECTORAL HISTORY COLLECTION
INTERVIEWEE:Carol Nachtrab
INTERVIEWBR:Therese Strohmer
DATE:February 26, 2008[Begin Interview]
TS:Okay, this is Therese Strohmer and I’m at the house of Carol—?
CN:Nachtrab.
TS:Nachtrab.
CN:Nachtrab.
TS:And we’re in High Point in the state of North Carolina. Today is February 26,
and it is about quarter after two in the afternoon. This is an oral history
interview for the Women Veterans Historical Project at the University of North
Carolina at Greensboro. Go ahead and state your full name, Carol.
CN:It’s Carol Ann Nachtrab.
TS:Okay, very good.
[recording paused]
TS:Okay, Carol, my first question is why don’t you tell me a little about where
and when you were born?
CN:I was born in Napoleon, Ohio, in June of 1941. It’s a small town, small
farming community. We do have a Campbell Soup Company there. And I am the only
girl. Three boys, one older and two younger than myself. It’s basically the two
younger ones were quite a bit younger than I was, like eight years and ten years
younger, so it was almost like two separate families, but I enjoyed being the
only girl in the family. And I went to high school there. After high school went
to nurses training in Lima, Ohio, and after nurses training moved to Columbus,
Ohio, and worked there.
TS:Do you know about what year that was when you started nurses training?
CN:In 1959.
TS:1959.
CN:Yes.
TS:Where was it that you went to high school? What was the name of the school?
CN:Napoleon High School it was called.
TS:Did you have a favorite subject?
CN:Like, anatomy I liked best. Math I wasn’t good at at all, but liked anatomy.
TS:Did you have a job while you were in high school?
CN:Yes. When I was sixteen I cleaned motel rooms at a local owned motel. During
school, I worked on the weekends, and then during the summer I worked Monday
through Friday, and it was just mainly for spending money, so I was spoiled in
that respect.
TS:And so what, when did you graduate from high school
CN:I graduated in ’59 from high school, and then went on to nurse’s training.
TS:Okay.
CN:Had a little bit of a glitch, went to Toledo Hospital School of Nursing with
seven of us from the same high school graduating class, so we kind of did more
partying than we should’ve. And so several of us were asked to leave, and I was
quite upset because I wanted to be a nurse my whole life. And I remember coming
home and my father saying that nobody could take an education away from me that
I had already gotten, and that maybe I had gotten more of an education by just
this fact. And so I waited, then, till the next year and went to Lima, and went
there for three years and graduated from Lima Memorial Hospital School of Nursing.
TS:Do you recall anything else about your college days that you’d like to share?
CN:I think one thing that was interesting was when I went to Lima, I didn’t—and
I’d always been a person that got along with everybody and, you know, was
sometimes the instigator of things. And when I went to Lima, I wouldn’t talk to
anybody because I felt like they were all very immature and I was the mature
person who’d been out of school for a year. But that soon stopped. It was a
three-year program and I really enjoyed it, because I felt like we really got to
the meat of nursing and really got thrown into things and got the basics at the
same time.
TS:So after nursing school, what did you do next?
CN:I moved to Columbus and got a job at Riverside-White Cross in Columbus. It
was an eight hundred bed hospital. I was there eight years; started out on a
medical-surgical floor, then became evening supervisor, and then became staff
development coordinator where I taught some classes there and I thoroughly
enjoyed it. Four of us lived in an apartment together and had good times, and
really, it was a good, good time in life that we
just worked for clothes and new clothes and went to parties. And at that time,
the Vietnam era was starting. The war had started and that seemed
00:05:00to be what everybody talked about. When you went to parties and everything else,
everybody had their opinions and, “This should be done,” and, “This is going
on,” and “that’s going on.” And so it was a different time.
TS:Now, you were also—let’s see, where were you at when JFK [President John F.
Kennedy] was assassinated?
CN:I was in Columbus. In fact, my daughter and I were just talking the other
night that how you remember where you are and what you were doing at certain times.
This is just a side note, but Todd Beamer, from 9/11 [September 11, 2001], the
plane [United Flight 93, that crashed] in Pennsylvania, his father was at our
church Sunday and he spoke, and that’s how got us started on, because you know
where you were on 9/11. I knew when JFK and also the Challenger [Space Shuttle
explosion], you always know.
In fact, I was working nights and my one roommate was working downtown in an
office and she called us up and we got up and laid on the living room floor
watching it. And I remember that night going to work, none of the patients could
sleep. That’s all we talked about, like it was almost like our country’s in a
wreck, you know, turmoil, and it was really very impressive and long lasting memories.
TS:So they couldn’t sleep?
CN:No they just, they just—everybody wanted you to sit down and talk about it,
and, you know. I think almost some reassurance that things were going to be
okay. It was really a strange night.
TS:And then do you remember anything in, from your days in Ohio about, like
black power or some of the other social movements that were going on at that time?
CN:Not really in Napoleon. We didn’t really have any of that in Napoleon. It was
strictly—I think we had one black family in town— [coughs] excuse me—a few
Spanish families, but it just wasn’t an issue there at all. And Columbus, I
didn’t know—it didn’t appear that much, even working in a big city hospital. You
had your groups and stuff, but we just, I think coming from Ohio, we just didn’t
pay attention to that, because we were just used to treating everybody equally.
So you just didn’t pay attention to it.
TS:Well now, Kent State [shootings] would’ve happened, I think, when you were
still there?
CN:Kent State happened after I had left.
TS:Oh it did, okay.
CN:Yes, yes. I remember my parents calling, or writing to me and telling me
about it. I couldn’t believe it.
TS:Yes. Well, let’s go a little bit into why you decided to join the military,
then. Why don’t you tell me a little bit about that that and other things you
might have been considering at the time, although you were working as a nurse.
CN:I was working as a nurse and I loved my job, but I felt like I had gone as
far as I could go then, that I would’ve had to make a decision of going back to
school or, you know, and doing—going to school full time or pursuing something
else. And then again, as I mentioned earlier, everybody was talking about
Vietnam and all of that. And so I just got to the point where I figured, “If I’m
going to talk about it, I’m going to want to know what’s going on.” And so my
roommate and I, we talked about it and everything, and we decided to join the
air force. And so we went down to the recruiters and talked to the recruiter and
he seemed very pleased, and filled out the paperwork, and then he told us that
we would be leaving for the air force basic training on October first of that year.
So we put in our thirty day notice, so that we could spend some time, about a
month, at home before we left. She was from Newark, Ohio. And so we quit and
went home and we talked back and forth, “Have you heard anything?” And of
course, we were naïve when it came to this stuff. Hadn’t heard anything, didn’t
realize that he could give us a date that we were going in and stuff. We didn’t
know this, you know, you trusted everybody. So the time kept coming and coming
and it kept coming closer and we still hadn’t heard anything. So she
went to her congressman and I went to my congressman to see what was going on.
And they discovered that he had put our file in a bottom drawer and
00:10:00had left it there. I don’t know whether his—I think they had certain quotas they
had to meet and I think he was putting us away for another time and forgot about
us. So she went ahead and reapplied to the air force and I thought, “Eh.” And
there was an army recruiting place.
In the meantime, I had started working at our local hospital, just because I
couldn’t see sitting around not working. And living at home, it was a little
difficult after not living at home for a while. So my mother worked days and I
worked evenings and it worked out nice. And so one day I just decided to go to
Defiance, which was a town about twenty miles away that had an army recruiter
place there. So I walked in and there was this little PFC [private first class]
sitting behind the desk, and he asked if he could help me, and I said yes, that
I wanted to join the army. And he said, “Okay,” and he started filling out, and
I said I was a nurse and his eyes got a little bit bigger. Said I had eight
years experience and his eyes got bigger. And he said, “Excuse me ma’am will you
just wait right there.” And he ran next door to where the recruiter was eating
his lunch and he came flying back because I think I met his quota for quite a
while. [chuckles] So they were quite shocked that—.
So then I knew that I had to wait and everything and the papers were processed.
And my younger—the older of the two younger brothers, when I had to report for
Fort Sam Houston [Texas], we drove down, took my car with me and drove down
together. It was nice, because I was already older when they were growing up and
so we really got pretty close on the way trip and had a good time and
everything. And then I started at Fort Sam Houston. So that’s how I got into the
service. [chuckles]
[recording paused]
TS:And did you have any—well, how did your family feel about your decision?
CN:They were all right with it. They were used to me doing what I wanted to do,
and I was older and everything. At the time, of course, they didn’t know that I
had signed up strictly to go Vietnam. I hadn’t told them until after I was at
Fort Sam Houston, and then I told them that I had signed up strictly to go to
Vietnam. And my mother told me years later that—of course, they would not stop
anything that I wanted to do—that she was really, really upset because her only
daughter was going over where people were being killed, but she knew that I had
to do what I wanted to do, so that’s about it.
TS:How about your brothers?
CN:They were pretty good with it, in fact—
TS:About how old were they at that time?
CN:They were—the older brother was—let’s see, I had my twenty-ninth and
thirtieth birthday party over there, so the older one was probably about thirty,
thirty-one. He was married and had children. And the younger ones were probably
in college by then. But it’s really ironic, because the one that was, that
traveled with me to Fort Sam Houston, dropped out of college on a stupid whim
because he couldn’t get the classes that he wanted one semester. So we had a
family business, so he decided, “I’ll drop out and work at the family business
and then go back.” Well, he got drafted, so he ended up with orders to Vietnam
while I was there, so I extended. That’s why I was there eighteen months,
because a normal tour was a year. So I extended so he wouldn’t have to be sent
over there, because at the time Congress had passed a law that only one family
member had to serve over there, because what was happening was so many families
were being wiped out because all their sons were sent to Vietnam and being
killed. So I just stayed over there so he wouldn’t have to come over there.
TS:Wow.
CN:He still is very grateful.
TS:I bet.
CN:Very grateful. But that was another thing I think that drew us a lot closer, too.
TS:How about your friends that you had?
CN:Most of the friends I had left were in Columbus, and, of course, they were
used to people coming and going in their lives and stuff like that. And so really,
some of them just couldn’t believe that we would do it, especially the guys.
“You’re going when you don’t have to go?” and things like that. But I think they
00:15:00respected our decision to go and stuff. And it was funny, the—I, of course,
after—I guess it was before I went to Fort Sam Houston, they had a big party for
me at home. And here I was almost thirty years old and had never smoked a
cigarette in front of my parents. So it was really funny, after the party was
over, why—of course, my dad always went to bed early but my mom was sitting
there with us, and several of my brother’s friends and my brothers were sitting
there. We were just sitting round the table talking, and, of course, a couple of
them were smoking, and one of them threw his pack of cigarettes to me and said,
“Here. I know you’re dying for a cigarette.” So I lit up a cigarette in front of
my mother for the first time. And she probably was more upset about that than me
going to Vietnam. But it was strange how in those days and age, you just didn’t
do certain things in front of your parents, and that was one of them. So I grew
up a little bit then, too.
TS:I had a similar experience.
CN:Yes?
TS:One thing I forgot to ask you was what did your parents do when you were
growing up?
CN:My family had, they had a family business, a roofing and sheet metal company.
In fact we lived right next door to the company. It was like—uncles worked
there, and my mother didn’t work while we were younger and then when the boys
got school-age, then she worked. Well, when I was smaller, she worked as a
kindergarten teacher, because I went to kindergarten for three years in a row.
And in those days, the teachers didn’t have to be certified for kindergarten. So
in order— didn’t go to a babysitter, I just went to kindergarten for three
years. But then she became a receptionist for a physician in town when the boys
started back to school. So it was—I had a very happy childhood and very loving.
Nothing unusual, except I was spoiled because I was a girl. [laughter]
TS:That’s right. Well we’re going to go back now to pick your brain a little bit
further on when you signed up for the army and you said you wanted to go to
Vietnam. Why? Why that—why did you want to do that, Carol?
CN:I just, like I said, I got to the point with my job I wasn’t that satisfied
with it. I felt like maybe I could make a difference even though I was one
person. I felt like I wanted to see what was going on and that maybe I could
help. If I just helped one person, you know, that I could make a difference. And
then I think that it was the era that we grew up in. You know, it was America
and apple pie, and you just didn’t question not going if you’re able to do
something like that. It was just—I just felt like I should go.
TS:So that was in 1970?
CN:Yes.
TS:So there had been a lot of student protests at that time.
CN:Yes.
TS:What did you think about that?
CN: Very upset about it. That I thought again, “You don’t know what you’re
talking about.” Here’s these guys over there getting shot at and killed, and
some of them were younger than the people that were protesting. And it’s like—I
just—I just—just didn’t approve of it. It upset me a lot. It upset a lot of
people over in Nam [Vietnam] with it going on then.
TS:So you get to Fort Sam Houston, and how old were you at that time?
CN:I was twenty-nine then. Twenty-eight, twenty-nine, in through there. So
again, I was older then what most of the people there were. And you had
different groups of the nurses. You had just regular people that came in after
nurses training; you had the RANE[?] students, which were students that were
taught in the army nurse program; you had students that the army paid for their
schooling, so they owed the army; and then you had a few people like me.
[chuckles] So there were about, oh, five or six of us that—excuse me
[coughs]—that were older and had been out of nursing.
So it was really interesting, because when you first get there you have all
these classes, and of course we had been out of school so long we didn’t know
what to study and all this stuff, and you have to learn all the ranks you have
to learn all this stuff about the army.
00:20:00So we formed a study group and we’d be out until all hours of the morning
studying. These young kids were out partying. We’d take the tests and we would
not pass or not get very good grades. These young kids would ace it. We got so
upset. We thought, “Here we are, we’ve been out.” So we went to talk to the
chief nurse, we were that upset. We thought can you get kicked out because your
grades aren’t that good? And she just laughed and she said, “Don’t worry. The
second half we’re going to be running field hospitals.” And she said, “Guess
who’s going to be in charge?” So we were running field hospitals and we were in
charge, and that’s where we were shining much over everybody else, and so we
saved our face by doing that. But it was interesting being up with those.
And we had some—we didn’t have a lot of the hard stuff that the guys had, but we
did have one time where they’d take out—it was called Camp Bullis, and anybody
that’s been through Fort Sam knows about Camp Bullis. And so they take you out
and they dump you out, and you have a compass and you have to find your way
back. And so I guess after a while, they come and get you. And so we kind of
walked around for a while and then we’d just sit down and smoke cigarettes until
they came to get us. We couldn’t be bothered with this nonsense. [chuckles] [coughs]
But part of the training was a little bit, I don’t know, you wonder what you got
yourself into. We did get—we were taught how to shoot an M16. We weren’t taught
how to tear it down and all that, but how to shoot one. Then we also, they—in
our labs and stuff, they would—which was kind of cruel, and I suppose animal
activists would have a fit—but the goats were anesthetized, but they would shoot
them full of holes and stuff. And so then we would practice sewing them up. And
we also had to practice doing tracheotomies, because they felt like if a
compound was overrun, either the doctors would be help—would be fighting or
maybe would be some of the casualties. There were more nurses than doctors, so
that we might have to be doing some of the things that the doctors did.
Fortunately, only one time we thought we were being overrun, but other than that
we were okay.
TS:Did you ever have to put any of that training into use, though?
CN:No, like I said, the one time it—we—in Qui Nhon we were on the coast, and
then behind us was a mountain range, terrain. And they—on one of the mountains
kind of behind us, they had an ammo [ammunitions] dump, the United States had an
ammo dump. And one night we were working nights as [unclear], and there we
worked a month of nights and a month of days and a month of nights, we rotated.
And we were on nights and they blew up the ammo dump. [coughs] And so what
happened to us was our ward immediately went black and you could hear it. And
so, like I said, you didn’t know what was happening. The windows blew out. We
had a metal cabinet on the wall where a lot of our medicines and stuff were;
that fell to the floor.
So we were taught that if we were overrun or if anything happened, we get our
GIs under their beds. And I worked the intensive care unit, so they couldn’t get
out themselves and our ward had GIs at one end and Vietnamese at the other end,
and Viet Cong. The Viet Cong were under guard continually, but because we were
intensive care unit, we took care of all of them. And so, of course, we first
got the GIs under and then we got the Vietnamese under, but the VC stayed in
their beds. We didn’t get them under. And then we got under the beds with the
most critical. So you’re under there pitch black, and we finally get everybody
under the bed. You’re under with the most critical patients, and you hear
footsteps out—out in the ward. So finally somebody gets up enough nerve and
says, “Who is it?”
And it was one of the corpsman, and he said, “If I’m going to die, I’m going to
die with a cigarette in my hand.”
So cigarettes made it important and so everybody said, “Bring me mine! Bring me mine!”
So we’re sitting under there smoking cigarettes and looking at—there was big
double doors at the end, and pretty soon those big double doors come flying open
and it was one of our majors that was an anesthetist there. And he came in with
his flak jacket
on and his helmet and his M16 and said, “You guys all right?” because we didn’t
know if what was coming in. So then they got the generators going. But we had a
00:25:00couple of the guys we couldn’t move, and the one was what we called a crainy
that had frag[ment]s in his head, and he was unconscious and stuff, and when we
turned the lights on, he had a piece of glass from the window, laying on his
chest, very pointed, laying flat on his chest. If it had come down any other
way, it would’ve just been it. So that was the main scare that we had there. We
had some times when—of course, we always worked twelve hour shifts and we worked
six days a week. [recording skips]
—that had some problems with living in the apartment. And it, if it gets too bad
we could move. You want to see if it’s coming—?
[Recording paused]
TS:Okay. I’m just doing a quick test here in this room so, one, two, three.
We’re still with Carol.
CN:I’m still here.
TS:Enjoying a lovely afternoon.
[Recording paused]
TS: Okay, Carol, sorry about that interruption. You were talking about the
corpsmen wanting to get a smoke.
CN:So we all got our cigarettes and then, I said before, the major came in and
all was well. But the ironic thing was that ammo dump blew for two days
afterwards. It just kept blowing up and blowing up, you know, and it’d be quiet
a little bit and blow up. What really made it bad was after it finally settled
down, the troops were able to go in and they found a guy still alive in there.
And they, of course, brought him and he was on my ward, and he was literally out
of his mind. Because you can imagine laying there hearing this not knowing if
the next one was going to blow up—blow you up or not. And I often wonder about
him if he ever got, you know, okay.
We thought about a lot of people that, of course, we would fix them up and get
them to the point where they could travel, and they would load them on planes
and usually they would send them to Japan and then on to the States. And so we
wouldn’t hear from them very much after that. Once in a while we might get a
letter that—we got—one time we had a senator’s son and we did get a letter from
his dad thanking us, you know, after he had finally gotten home. But you
wondered. Some of these guys were newly married, like a day before they came,
and some of them were so young and they would go home. Some of them, the ones
that got shot in the head would go home as literally nothing. Some of them would
have both arms off, an arm and a leg off, and you just wonder how—how the
marriage survived, you know, with just being married and then to come home like
that. And then what the guys had gone through. We would get calls at night all
the time from the guys out in the field just wanting to hear our voice and to
talk to us and stuff like that—with the American female’s voice and stuff.
TS:What kind of things would they like to talk about?
CN:Oh, they’d talk about, you know, back home and talk about music and sometimes
they’d talk about their girlfriends and, you know, just whatever that we’d talk
about. And mutual things, where they grew up and different things like that.
There was always one of us usually, if we weren’t too busy, that would talk to
them and stuff.
TS:Could you talk a little bit about—make sure I did that right. [chuckles]
Could you talk a little bit about your plane ride—you described a little bit in
the News and Record—to Vietnam.
CN:Yes, that was—
TS:And maybe even just, even before you got on the plane, how that—
CN:Yes. Of course, I had come back home, and then—before I left—and then I took
a ride from Toledo to San Francisco. I think it was San Francisco we landed. And
so then, you know, was in the process of waiting while they board the planes and
all this stuff, and immediately—of course, I was in uniform—and immediately
there was somebody there to help me. The guys were so good. Of course, being the
minority helped matters, but they were so good. There was always somebody there
to carry my luggage. There was always somebody there to talk to me. So we
boarded the plane, and the plane flight was twenty-four hours long. And I
was the only female on with the exception of the stewardess. Of course, it must
have been pretty lucrative for the stewardess, because it was always the older
stewardesses that were on the plane. Had
00:30:00warrant officers who were dustoff [medical evacuation] pilots, and most of them
this was their second or third tour over there, so they kind of took me over
under their wing and told me what to do and took me wherever and we played cards
all night long. And, of course, they told me what I should do, what to expect
when I’m over there and everything.
TS:Can you explain a little bit about for people who don’t know what a dustoff
pilot is?
CN:Dustoff pilots, well, they were warrant officers in the—and they were the
pilots that were trained for the helicopters. And what they did was they went
into, whether it was the battlefield, whether it was the aid station or
whatever, and picked up the wounded. So it was a pretty dangerous job that
sometimes they would go right into where the fighting was going on to pick up
the wounded and then they would fly them to the evac[uation] hospitals or any of
the hospitals in the area. So we got to know most of the dustoff pilots that
were there, because they would bring the guys in and stuff. So they were great.
They really took care—took care of me a lot.
TS:So you’re playing cards with them on the plane
CN:Yes, played cards and I don’t know if there was a movie on that plane or not,
I don’t think we watched it if there was.
TS:Did they have to do like an aerial refueling for a twenty-four hour flight?
CN:Yes, you landed. We landed in Hawaii and then Guam, but you didn’t get off
the planes or anything. It just was a quick refuel and up again. And they—and
then we landed. I’ll never forget the landing, it was so hot. I mean, you got
off that plane and the heat just hits you in the face. Immediately drenched,
inside and out. Clear into your underwear, you were completely soaked, because
the heat is just oppressive. Even worse than North Carolina’s heat in the
summertime. [chuckles] And the smell was just unreal. There’s a smell over there
and you can’t describe it, but anybody who’s been over there knows what you’re
talking about. And when I’ve talked before to groups, all the guys sit there and
shake their head when I say that.
First of all, we couldn’t land when we first got there, because there was some
ground fire not far from the airport. So we had to circle until it was safe to
land, which you know, certain times I kept thinking to myself through all this
whole thing, you know, “Why did I do this again?” Just kind of fleets through
your mind every once in a while. So then got off and had to stay in Long Bihn
for a couple days till we got our assignments and stuff. There were more women
there then waiting to be dispatched throughout the country. We stayed in these
little hooch-like places that all there was was a bed and a chair and a lamp in
there. And it had, you had to go outside to the shower, and the shower was open
air shower. And you always had bugs in your room and in your showers and little
geckos or little lizards on the walls and stuff. I’ve been all right with
certain bugs, but I hated crickets and grasshoppers. Wasn’t too bad; I didn’t
see too many of those over there. We spent most of the time in the officer’s
club, again playing cards and drinking a few drinks. And again, never had to buy
a thing, never had to do a thing. The guys just took care of the females so well
over there. And I think—I don’t know if it’d be different now because the women
are now more in combat and more—like where we were kind of put up on a pedestal
for the guys, where I often wonder now if it’s any different than that.
TS:That’s a good question. How about, where was the evacuation hospital, what
was the name of it?
CN:It was the 67th evac hospital and it was in Qui Nhon, which was right in the
kind of middle of Vietnam on the coast. And the army or whatever, the military,
had it divided into three sections, in the upper and then the middle and then
the bottom. Down at the bottom was where the delta was and all of the rivers and
stuff like that. So we were kind of in the middle. We were what they called an
evac hospital, in which they brought them in straight
out of the fields and we had an emergency room where were triaged them and
everything. Had a surgery and recovery room area. And then we
00:35:00had intensive care, we had some surgical wards. We also had some medical wards
that sometimes the guys had medical problems and stuff, malaria or something
like that, then they were on the medical floors. Once in a while the guys would
be there and then they’d get shipped back out. Of course, any of them in our
unit they got shipped to Japan and the States and stuff.
TS:Because you were in intensive care?
CN:Yes. And what was very interesting, which I often think about that, which
came into play later on in my career, but these guys had to be on oral pain
medicine before they could fly out. So you would have guys that were literally
blown up, you know, arm and a leg off and everything within a day or two, they
were on oral pain medicine. Which kind of, after I got out of the service and
everything and was married, I was working in a hospital in Maryland that 90
percent of their patients were—I was on a surgical floor—was facelifts and all
of that stuff. And those people would be ten days post op[erative] and still be
on IM [Intramuscular] medicine. It was a little bit difficult for me to accept.
In fact, I would come in the nurses’ station and shut the door and expound every
once in a while. When I saw so much that the guys went through, and like I said,
they were on oral medicine, usually Darvocet, before they could be shipped out,
so they did everything possible before they could go.
TS:A lot of people, I’m sure, have an image of an evacuation hospital like
M*A*S*H. Can you describe really what it looked like for—in person?
CN:Ours was—we didn’t have the tents. I think originally, when the United States
first went over there, they had tents. But, of course, ours was a—they were what
they called Quonset huts which had cement sides and then tin roofs. They did
have—the hospital did have two stories in some sections. Ours was a one story,
the intensive care unit. And some of them were just a series of buildings with
walkways between. And of course, our intensive care unit was right on the air
field, and then the rest of the hospital was around and behind us. And it was
just long cement wards, cement floors, windows at the top, and just with beds
along the walls and stuff. You know, it was quite different.
But like I said, ours—where we lived was also Quonset hut, no tents or anything
like that. It was pretty good. We had indoor plumbing, which I think originally
when the nurses when over there, they didn’t have that. We had rooms, which two
of us shared a room and then it was connected to another two-man room with a
bathroom in between. And so that always—excuse me—posed interesting things,
because when you got up to go in the bathroom, you never know what was going to
be greeted.
We’ve had—several times there were mice or rats in the toilets that had come up
through the sewers, and, of course, cockroaches. We just lived with those. There
were cockroaches all over the place. And before you went to bed at night, you
opened your covers and flicked them out of the way, so that they wouldn’t take
up too much of the bed with you and stuff. Which that’s one thing my family
couldn’t believe, that I managed to live with cockroaches, because, like I said,
I was afraid of—didn’t like crickets and grasshoppers which my brothers used to
chase me with. But you had to accept it, otherwise you’d go crazy.
And we also we were always writing home to the States to send us stuff. And we
could cook a complete Thanksgiving dinner in the fry pans, and we did it.
[laughs] Of course, it was always good to know the guys who worked in the mess
tent because you got some extra privileges there.
TS:I was going to ask you a little bit about that. What did you have for like
food and things like that?
CN:Our food was pretty good. They—like I said, if you knew the guys in the mess
tent you got special things when you went through the line, but just regular
food most of the time. Everybody talks about the old SOS [shit on a shingle],
the stuff
on the toast, which was just hamburger and gravy over toast in the morning, but
you had other things if you wanted it. You know, you had cereal and stuff like that,
00:40:00and so most of the time our food was pretty good.
We had what we called the roach coach. It was a trailer that, I think, was run
by the Vietnamese. There were Vietnamese working in it. Probably it belonged to
the United States, but we had a lot of Vietnamese working on the ground. And you
could get hamburgers there, what you’d call hamburgers. They weren’t like the
United States, but it was close enough for us. Potato chips were one thing we
talked about a lot, because our potato chips came in a can and sometimes they
were rancid. So you talked a lot about the real world and real food. We talked a
lot about McDonalds, and at that time I don’t think there was Burger King and
stuff like that. We talked about potato chips, couldn’t wait to get actual
potato chips in a bag. So that was one thing families sent us, but usually by
the time we got them they were pretty much crumbs. Like I said, food wasn’t bad
for us.
And we had a lot of people that stopped by our mess tents and stuff, like
travelling in country and stuff like that. A lot of the guys would fly in and
then fly out and stuff so it was pretty used quite a bit.
TS:So you think you could describe—I hate to use the word typical, because I
don’t imagine you had a typical day—but could you describe from the time you got
up to the time you went to bed? Could you give us a scenario like that or maybe
even a most memorable one?
CN:They were all pretty much about the same, depending on what, what kind of
action was going on. In the intensive care unit, of course, we went to work at
7:00 in the morning, got off at 7:00 at night, or vice versa if we were working.
And of course, got report and everything. And then it was mainly, most of the
time we were full and so we had a lot of tracheotomies. We had a lot of
dressings we had to change.
We had—of course, in nurses training you’re always taught you never give a
medicine that someone else has mixed up. And I think that was the most memorable
thing, because we had— the guys were on so many IVs. Some of them had three IV
sites going that we had to—and of course, all the IVs had massive doses of
antibiotics in them because the infection rate was horrible over there. So we
had one person that all they did for the twelve hours that they worked was set
up the IVs for the next shift and put the medicine in and label them and
everything. And we had a counter, it was probably at least twice the size of
that coffee table, that was solid, row after row after row of IVs that you set
up. You mixed up the medicines in them and that was another thing you were
taught. You mix it up as you use it. Well, this you mixed up. A lot at that
time, the antibiotics we had to mix in the saline and stuff like that, now they
come already done and everything. But then, we had to do all of that, and they
were in bottles, they weren’t in bags. We didn’t have bags. So they were just
row upon row upon row of bottles that you put the antibiotics in and you put a
cotton ball on top and a medicine cup and taped it, so when you needed it on
your next shift you could just go and grab it, because you didn’t have—you had
so many of them you didn’t have time to do it.
We had burn patients. Those were usually the Vietnamese patients. We had one
little boy, I’ll never forget him. He was burned over 90 percent of his body. He
was in the garbage dump with his family going through the garbage, and, of
course, hit a land mine. And so that was an interesting case because we had to,
every hour, roll the pus out of his grafts. He was grafted with pig’s skin,
which they did a lot of grafting in those days with pigs’ skin. And at night you
would go back there and he had a heat cradle over his bed. It was just a wire
frame to keep the covers off of his legs and his body. And you’d go back at
night, of course, it was dark and warm in there, flip back that heat cradle and
the cockroaches would just scatter. They had been eating on the pus. But I’ll
tell you one thing, that kid walked out of there with very little scarring. So I
often said, if you could stand it, that they could somehow breed sterile cockroaches
that would be something to look into with burns that were infected, because he
had very little scarring because they kept it clean. So you
00:45:00learned all kinds of stuff over there.
TS:That’s amazing.
CN:But your day was pretty much taken up with just giving the medicines, doing
the IVs, suctioning, tracheotomies. Once in a while we’d have patients on what
we’d call the striker frame that had back injuries, which I don’t even know if
they use the striker frame anymore. It’s like a—it looks like two ironing boards
together and the patient is in between and it’s on this frame and its bolted and
then you turn them every hour to—you have to turn them so their pressure is not
always on—so we had those that had to be turned all the time. A lot of people on
oxygen. I saw cholera. We had a cholera patient, which I’d never seen that and
probably never will. We had a patient that had tetanus, which never saw that and
probably never will again.
TS:Were those Vietnamese?
CN:No they were GIs.
TS:They were GIs?
CN:Both of them were GIs. And like I said, burn patients. Just about everything
the critical patients you know, we had. Sometimes we would have to relieve the
recovery room if they got really busy in surgery. And that was—surgery was right
off our ward and recovery room was right off our ward. But nights were usually,
depending a little bit, quieter, but it was the same routine with us for nights.
Some of the other units, of course, weren’t as busy at night, but we were. We
had the same things, so just real busy.
One time there was a big push over Easter, as a matter of fact. It was an
outpost some place that there was about sixty of our GIs up there and the rest
they were training the ARVNs [Army of the Republic of Vietnam], which were the
good Vietnamese that were ARVNs. There was the Viet Cong and the ARVNs. The
ARVNs were the good Vietnamese. And they got overrun. And so, at that time, we
worked four hours on and four hours off, four hours on and four hours off, just
to keep up with it. And because we usually had one day off a week, but then you
couldn’t. We did that for about two weeks straight, till we got everybody stable
and out of there and stuff.
Sometimes at night, maybe I shouldn’t even talk about this, but we’d get off
work in the morning and sit and drink beer until about ten o’clock. [laughs] We
were lucky, there was a beach not too far. Because, like I said, we were right
on the coast. And they had like a USO [United Service Organizations] place there
that the—it was kind of an R&R [rest and recuperation] place for the
soldiers in-country, so once in a while we could go there if we had like the
next day off. Or sometimes we’d go to the beach, lay on the beach all day, come
back, get ready for work, and go to work again. We could only do that for two or
three days and then—of course, I was older than the rest of them, so it was a
little bit more hard on me. But we had our good times and we had our bad times.
It sounds like we had good times all the time, but you didn’t.
But you just utilized those good times so much more, you know. You became closer
with people than you ever did any place else. Like I said, the friends you made
there, you know, I’m still close to a couple of them. You know, you let them
take care of your kids. You’d let them—lay your life down. It was probably
twenty some years afterwards, I picked up the phone one night and this guy said,
“Well, what are you doing, Captain?” They used to—I was a captain at the time. I
can’t remember, it was some stupid name they always said. And it was one of the
corpsmen. And I knew right away when I heard his voice who it was.
And so several of us—he lives in Savannah, Georgia—so several of us for years
met in Savannah, Georgia, over St. Patrick’s Day. We did that for ten, fifteen
years I guess. But now we’ve kind of—some of us are getting too old and
infirmed, but we laughed because all we’d do when we were down there was drink
coffee and smoke cigarettes and sit up and talk all night long. And we laughed
because at first we’d be talking about our children and families and stuff, and
then it was our grandkids and all of that, and then it was, last time we got
together, it was our illnesses and what was wrong with us. So maybe it was good
we don’t get together that much anymore. But the friendships you make over there
is unreal. It’s just unreal.
And
we had it, I think, better where we were than some places were. Like I said we
were protected by the 173rd Airborne [Brigade Combat Team]. And if you know
anything about the
00:50:00service, the men in the 173rd are nuts. And they would do anything if you ask
them to. So we were lucky that they were there. In fact, the 173rd I think is
out of Fayetteville, isn’t it? I don’t know.
TS:Not sure. Not up on my airborne. [chuckles]
CN:They would always—them and the air force guys would always bring us stuff
that we couldn’t get in the PX [post exchange]. So they were all good to us.
They’d bring us Matuse wine and Salem cigarettes. You never could get those in
the PX, and so they always brought them to us and stuff.
TS:Well, let me ask you, Carol, if there—was there any particular time that was
particularly difficult that you remember that was—?
CN:Yes, the difficult time was—and I think I mentioned it in the poem—where the
unexpected—or the expected room. That we had this room, it was off of the
emergency room, and one of us was always assigned to that room. It could be your
day off, and if it was your day, you got called in. And it was a place where
they brought them to die. And we—in fact, the nurses are the ones that really
started that, because we didn’t want them to die alone. So any other time, say
if it happened now and it was one person, and say in auto accident with the
equivalent, they might have been saved, but when we had so many that you
couldn’t take the time, it was better to sacrifice one to save many. And so that
was the worst time that you had. But like I said, we all went through it. We’re
the ones that decided it and so we’d always sit in there and hold their hands
and talk to them until they died. And so, that was the worst part of it.
The other thing was they were so young. And I think maybe because I was older,
it just—it just would get to me how young these boys were and that their life
must never be the same, never. And it just—that got to me, I think, more than
anything. But like I said, I’d do it again in a minute.
But it just, when I came back, I wouldn’t talk about it. And if you notice
any—know any Vietnam vet, you can’t talk about it. You can’t talk about it. And
it took me a while, it took me a long time. You know, my family would say, “You
were in this beautiful—.” Because I wouldn’t even write home half the time. “You
were in this beautiful country,” and, you know, all this. You just have to put
it aside. The best thing that happened to me was this friend from West Virginia
that I talked about. She lived up on the side of a mountain and so—my parents
about killed me but—in fact, after I’d been there [Vietnam] a year, I came home
for a thirty day leave, and you just couldn’t handle people and their questions.
You know, constantly, “So-and-so wants you to speak to them,” and this. I took
off and went and sat up on her mountain, because nobody asked me a thing, and I
was there for two weeks, which I really feel bad for my parents because I only
had two weeks when I came back. But I couldn’t handle it, you know, I just—it
took a long time. So I think when I got home from it, why, they finally realized
and kind of left me alone for a while and stuff. So I never really said—.
A lot of people I worked with never knew that I’d been there, never until one
Veterans Day, I think, somebody asked to interview me and there was a thing in
the paper. Many of the doctors came in and stuff and said, “I never knew it.”
And I said, “No.” I think because the country, they hated Vietnam vets. And it
just—you just didn’t want to go through that hassle. And so you just never,
never told anybody you were there. And then one day, I think it was Memorial
Day, they were dedicating the war memorial in our town of all the wars, and so
my daughter and I went down. And there were all these guys in their uniforms,
every—in their dress uniforms, every branch of the service. And there was this
ragtag bunch in fatigues, because, see, we never got issued dress uniforms at
all. And I knew what they were and I went over and asked them if I could stand
with them because I was a vet.
And, you
know, like I say in the thing, there’s—the guys were so appreciative of us, you
know, that it just—that’s why I wonder about now. I still
00:55:00don’t believe in women in combat, I’m sorry. And maybe I’m not a feminist or
something like that, but I just—I just feel that—I don’t know, maybe it’s a
different army now and different service of all, but I just, I just don’t think
that they need it. Maybe because we were treated so great.
TS:Well, a different era too.
CN:Yes, very different era.
TS:Well how about— [cough].
[End CD1, begin CD2]
TS: How about tell me—do you remember anything that was specifically humorous?
CN:[chuckles] Well, let’s see. Oh, we’d pull some things. Like I said,
nights—you had to see humor in some things or you’d fall apart. And so sometimes
we had humorous things that really shouldn’t have been. But other times—like I
said, nights weren’t quite as busy as days. And every time you worked and you’d
come on days, you’d wonder if there had been a push that night or something and
you’d come on and the ward would be packed full. So one night we were working
nights, and, you know, sometimes you’d get so tired. And so we decided then—so
we gathered up a bunch of corpsmen and stuff and we put them all in beds and we
bandaged them up and all this stuff. And it doesn’t sound like it’s funny to
other people, but the day crew came in and they were just, “Oh no!” you know,
and all this stuff. And we gave them report just like everything was—then they
finally decided what we’d done to them and stuff. I don’t know.
Some of the memorable things were—the nurses were always asked by the brass
to—like the commanding officer of the post would have visiting dignitaries in
and for a dinner or something and they’d want the nurses to come over, and a lot
of us wouldn’t do it. We were more comfortable with the enlisted guys than we
were the officers. Most of the doctors were more comfortable with the enlisted
guys. And so we had the commanding officer, he had a nice trailer and stuff that
was there and our hooch was right next to it, and we had this big under cover,
almost like a patio that we always sat out with picnic tables. So we’d just sit
out there with the corpsman when he’d have his parties and stuff. I don’t think
he liked it that much, but they couldn’t do anything to us! They couldn’t send
us home. So we weren’t very good, as far as being the officers we were supposed
to be. It just—stuff like that.
I don’t know there was a lot of stuff we did, a lot of stupid, idiotic things
that—I had a friend back here in the States and he would send me stuff, like
he’d send me the Muppets tapes of songs and stuff. And I mean, everybody got
into these! They were borrowing and playing them all over the stuff. And I think
just anything that has contact with, you know, the outside world. Oh, we had—our
chief nurse lived in our compound where the nurses lived. We sandbagged her door
one night so she couldn’t get out the next morning. We never did admit to that.
And, oh, different stuff like that that we used to do.
TS:I know I had a friend who was a practical joker, so I know in the military
what sort of things you can do.
CN:Oh yeah.
TS:How about like the culture that was happening? There was a lot of new types
of music coming out. Was there an interest in that? Like even in the—what about
the anti-war songs with [Bob] Dylan and the things that were playing? Did they—
CN:I didn’t like those too much. The big song over there was of course, “Leaving
on a Jet Plane.” I still think of Vietnam when I hear that. “I want to get out
of this place,” whatever song that was. And I tell you one thing, they did have
TV reception over there, which wasn’t very good. But all they played was Big
Time Wrestling and some local
weather stations or something. So the big thing was to watch Big Time Wrestling
for entertainment. But
01:00:00of course, a lot of people were in to the black lights and the smoking the
marijuana and that type of music, but we never got into that that much, maybe a
little bit, but not much of that.
TS:Like the way you see it portrayed in movies and things like that today, it’s—?
CN:No, I watched China Beach when it first came out and then I quit watching it,
because it was not realistic at all. I mean they had her wandering all through
town by herself and stuff like that. We never were allowed that. I think
originally, when the very first nurses went over there, they were allowed to go
downtown, but we could not go downtown unless we had an escort. She had to find
her own housing and stuff like that. No. And it seemed like she was the only
person working in the whole place. It was nothing like that, and so I quit
watching that. I didn’t like that one.
There was one other documentary they had out where they interviewed some of the
nurses, and that was pretty good. But most of the movies, even The Men of—is it
Charlie Company [The Boys in Company C?]? Was it that the one? That one was the
most realistic, with Charlie Sheen [Platoon]. I can’t remember. But a lot of
them I haven’t even seen, and I know a lot of the friends haven’t seen them
either. Because they just—it’s impossible to tell and to write about how it was.
It just is impossible. Because I think if you did make a movie, people wouldn’t
be able to stand to see it. And you know, M*A*S*H was okay. It—their OR
[operation room] and our OR sometimes was nonstop and stuff like that. And, you
know, there was a little bit of truth in that stuff. But you just had to be there.
TS:You said you worked like twelve hours shifts, and that sometimes you had the
four on and four off, and you described a little bit about your downtime, but
did you have any—did you get out at all?
CN:I was fortunate because I was dating a guy that was in special services, and
so he—in fact, this compound where it was on the beach, he was in charge of that
compound, and he had a vehicle. And so I wasn’t supposed to do it, but he would
come pick us up and we’d go over on the compound and stuff. They would get
Vietnamese bands and the big song that they always sang was “Proud Mary” and it
was always something to watch how they tried to do a Tina Turner and how they
pronounced the words and stuff like that.
But we’d get there and then, of course, on R&R I managed to go to Australia,
and because I was there for an extended time, I went to Taiwan and went to Hong
Kong. Now when I was in Taiwan, I discovered I had hepatitis, so that was after
I had been over there a year. And when I went back, my unit had stood down, so I
went to Cam Ranh Bay to a drug treatment center, which another whole side of the
war there.
I was head nurse of a—it was called an intensive care unit there, but it was
just the people that were really, really sick with hepatitis. And we always had
to draw our own blood from the patients. They didn’t have like lab techs. They
had lab techs but they just ran the tests, the nurses had to draw the blood. And
I always tell people I got hepatitis through my boob, because we had, of course,
our fatigues had pockets like this is, and we’d draw the blood and then we would
put the syringes in our pockets because we kept them locked up, so you didn’t
run back every time. And so in those days you didn’t worry about getting stuck
and all of that stuff. And I’m sure that one of the caps came off and I got the
hepatitis. And so, I had noticed that I hadn’t been feeling well, but they
always say nurses and doctors are the last to know. And I was awfully tired, and
cigarettes tasted terrible but you smoked so many of them because they were so
cheap. So I went on R&R and had
my first big meal in a long time and of course promptly lost that. I went to the
bathroom and it was all white and I looked at my eyes and I thought—So I was in
a navy hospital
01:05:00for about a month while I was there with hepatitis.
So then I went back to Vietnam and was there just—I was close to my date to
leave, so then I came on home. I could have been medevac[uat]ed out but I didn’t
want to because they said that you had to make sure you had your payroll papers
and all that, and I was getting out anyway so I just came home regular. Of
course, the money you made over there, because we never spent anything, that I
think I drew $75 a month and always had money.
One thing that was—they paid us in MPCs, which was military payment coupons.
They looked like monopoly playing money. Well, periodically they’d have to
change it because it would get out on the black market, and so they would change
it so that what was on the black market became worthless. So they would always
announce that they’d be changing it on that certain day. And so you’d bring all
your old MPC that you had to exchange for new. Well, half the time you forgot
you had it, and I can remember one time a friend of mine had some in her desk
drawer or dresser drawer that she forgot about. So of course, once it’s changed
its worthless. So we’re lighting cigarettes with $20 bills and stuff like that,
because it was worthless. We learned our lesson about that. We made sure we got
our MPCs changed and stuff.
TS:And that was to help prevent black market.
CN:Yes, because it—everything filtered out on the black market. That’s why we
never had Salem cigarettes and Matuse wine, because they like that on the black
market. So they would change it so that all the money out there would be worthless.
But Vietnamese—we had Vietnamese women that did all our laundry, cleaned our
room and all of that for like I think it was ten bucks a month or something like
that. Really took care of us, did our dishes if we had dirty dishes in our room
and all of that. And we had two Vietnamese nurses that worked on our ward. Of
course, they didn’t work as nurses because they couldn’t, but they took blood
pressures and temperatures and then acted as interpreters for any of the
Vietnamese patients that we had and stuff. You often wonder about all of those
people, you know, what happened to them and stuff.
TS:Now you’re—you’ve talked very highly of the men that you worked with. Did you
ever know of anyone that had suffered any kind of sexual harassment or
discrimination or anything like that?
CN:Not in our ward at all. Not at all. They just—we were just always treated
quite well. There were several couples dating and stuff like that, and that was
a big thing. If a nurse was dating a corpsman, you know, you had to sneak around
with that. But no, we never had any problems with that whatsoever.
TS:How about since you went over and you’d been working as a nurse for a
while—so you had—I don’t know if you had more experience than a lot of other
nurses that were there.
CN:I had—when I first got my orders, because I had been in the teaching end of
it in Columbus for probably a couple years and hadn’t done any actual bedside
nursing. So when I got my orders and arrived—you arrived at four o’clock in the
afternoon. You went to the chief nurse, she gave you your assignment, and you
reported to duty at seven o’clock the next morning. And it was to intensive care
unit. And I thought, “Oh my word.” Another time I thought, “What am I getting
myself into?” But it’s like riding a bicycle, your basic stuff never leaves you,
it comes back. And it was a type of thing that you learn by doing and learn
very, very fast. And the doctors were very respectable. They valued your
opinions, and many cases we’d sit and talk about together and stuff what was
going on.
And then you had your basics, you know. Like I said, we had the one cholera case
and the one tetanus case, but most of them were injury-type cases. We had some
punji stick injuries,
01:10:00which were really bad. And those were when the VC would file down bamboo to a
point and then rub it in either animal or human feces and then stick them up in
like where—the swamp or where the men were going. In fact, they developed a boot
after a while, after they’d been over there, that had a metal sole in them
because the punji sticks would go up through their foot. And as a result after
that, then they’d get them in the side of the leg or whatever. Of course highly
infectious, highly infectious. So we had those.
And a couple times we got white phosphorus burns in, and those were one of the
worst I think. In which—it’s a type of chemical that burns when it is in contact
with air. And they would make, I don’t know, with bombs or whatever they would
make. And when they exploded all these pieces of white phosphorus, so it would
hit like the leg, it would continue to burn all the way through. So when they
arrived, usually, in the ER, somebody would jump on the gurney, other people
would come along and we had big bottles of water or saline and you just kept
pouring water on it and rode them right into OR. And they wouldn’t even hardly
mask or gown to pull those out; otherwise it would burn all the way through. So
[we] had a few of those. But most of the other times it was you know the
routine: the burns, the frags, the stuff like that. So you learn quickly.
TS:Was it what you expected, do you think, when you went?
CN:No, it was more than what I expected. It really was. And it wasn’t quite as
primitive as what I thought, but it also wasn’t as nice as what I thought. You
know you have different pictures in your head. But the medical care was
top-notch. In every war they learned different things, and this war was one of
that they developed some things because the guys were getting wet lung syndrome,
because it was so damp during monsoons and stuff. And they would get—like it
would be a pneumonia type thing. So they developed a lot of different strategies
for treating that through the Vietnam War. And at that time, the care was
top-notch, you know, that they could get at that time.
A lot of blood was needed. We sometimes gave blood, depending on how low the
blood supply was. I felt sorry for the guys or anybody that was type O because
that’s the universal donor, and so they were always tapping those guys. Because
a lot of times we’d get them from the helicopter and we had to be pumping blood
in them right away. So those poor people were dragging a lot of the times and
stuff. But there was always somebody willing to give blood when needed.
TS:Did you have any like favorite supervisors or commanders or anything? You
were there for eighteen months, so I don’t know if there was a turnover.
CN:Yes, there was a turnover. There was a couple of the superiors that—the one
assistant CEO, or chief nursing officer, she was really, really nice. The main
CO, nursing CO that was there while I was there, she was the one that we
sandbagged her door and stuff. We didn’t like her that well. When I first got
there, one that was there was really nice, but she left shortly after I got
there. Most of the time we didn’t have a lot to do with them, and like I said,
they really had no control over us. I mean they tried, but we, you know, we did
our job and that’s what we were there for. And we didn’t like all that saluting
and all that stuff.
TS:Nurses were different than the army?
CN:Yes, different breed. Like I said what were they going to do, send us home?
TS:About how many nurses were there at a time, approximately?
CN:I’m thinking— well,
there may be forty. I don’t know. I’ll get my stuff, because I think there’s
some numbers in some of my stuff.
TS:We can look at that.
01:15:00How did you feel about your fellow nurses then that you worked with, and the
corpsmen, too?
CN:Like I said, we all were very, very close. Everybody really, really knew what
they were doing. I mean, after you worked there for a while, you really knew
what you were doing. And the corpsmen were well trained. Some of them liked to
give us a bad time but it was all in fun. We knew it was in fun. They—those are
the ones that we still get together with and stuff. But we were all a close-knit
[group]. Usually the closeness was between the physicians, the nurses, and the
corpsman, that group. Of course, that was about all that was there besides.
Pretty much that was a good group.
TS:You had talked in your poem that I remember that you wrote, about trying to
look—you remember always trying to look your best, and the perfume. Do you want
to talk about that a little bit more?
CN:The humidity was terrible over there, terrible. And a lot of us had hair
like—of course, your hair was long because you couldn’t get it cut over there.
Somebody’d cut it, but most of the time you just pulled it back. So you tried to
at least do something with it. And that was one thing, we were always writing
home for hairspray and perfume and all this stuff. You just tried to look your
best even though it was—the humidity was so bad, just because the guys
appreciated it so much. Perfume, they loved the smell of perfume when you’d lean
over and stuff. They’d always say you smelled so good. It just, I think, helped
them a little bit. We tried to do what we could. But that was stuff that wasn’t
available. We always had to write home for it and stuff. And every time we got a
package from home—because your mail would come to your ward, and then you’d have
to go pick it up. And if there was a box of anything, usually by the time you
got there somebody had opened it up to see if it was food or not, cookies or
not. [chuckles]
TS:You have to share.
CN:Yes, you shared with everybody.
TS:I remember having to share.
CN:Yes, yes.
TS:It didn’t matter if it was labeled for you or not.
CN:No, no, no, they’d get in to it. Especially if they could smell anything
through the package.
TS:And then you had also talked about when the USO came.
CN:Yes. That was kind of our triumph. It first of all was kind of a downcast,
because these chicks came in and were unreal. They had these beautiful gowns on
and this hair just perfect and this makeup perfect. And there we sat in army
fatigues, combat boots, our boonie hats, standing off to the side. They would
just go around and just, you know, think they were being so wonderful to the
guys. And that one that was, I could’ve—well, in fact, I think I did after they
left, went over and kissed him and everything.
When she leaned down and said, “Isn’t it nice to see these beautiful women from
the United States?”
And he looked at us and said, “No offense, ma’am, but my nurses are the most
beautiful people in the world.”
So we had our day that day. We felt good. Because they always had—well, Bob Hope
didn’t come to where we were because at the time it was pretty hot, so he didn’t
come there. Which I think was good that they came and they boosted morale and
stuff like that. But they just had a lot more to work with than what we did. So
we were pretty happy that day [chuckles] that he said that. I don’t even
remember his name. That’s another thing, you forget people’s names and stuff
like that.
TS:Sure would’ve been a lot of names to remember though.
CN:Oh, yes. Yes.
TS:Now what did you think about, basically, the administration, the government
at that time and the leadership at that time?
CN:At that time, I don’t think we agreed that we should be there. We felt like
it was a very political war. We saw it every day and the construction companies
that were there was owned by Lady Bird Johnson’s companies. And different things
like that. I think that war started even in the Kennedy administration. I think
there was rumblings of it then. And
there was a lot of people made a lot of money off that war. And I think we saw
that more than anybody else, and that’s what we didn’t agree with
01:20:00is that type of thing. And we felt like we weren’t making any progress, you
know? That that country had been at war for so many years and just felt like
there was a lot of lives that shouldn’t be lost. But again, it was that era that
most of us had grown up in, that it was the thing to do.
TS:The patriotic duty.
CN:Yes very much so. [pause]
I can tell they’re going to start again.
TS:Oh, they’ll be fine. I was going—with the way that you felt about that, you
know, not necessarily agreeing with it, but then having to see all the GIs every
day. And then you had said something, too, in your—in going home. Do you want to
talk about that?
CN:It was difficult. Totally different atmosphere on the plane coming back than
going over there. I mean, there was—it wasn’t total plane full of GIs, like
going over the plane was completely full of GIs, and just a totally different
atmosphere. I mean the guys were glad to come home, but a lot of those guys were
in the field one day and the next day they were on a plane to go home. So you
look at that shock of it, you know, type of it, still mud on their boots and
stuff like that. So we always landed in California, again I think it was San
Francisco. So we got off the plane. And there just at that time, the feelings
towards the military was not good at all.
TS:This was would’ve been ’72?
CN:Yes, and you could sense it no matter what. They—of course, we got to where
we were to pick up our luggage, and this guy on—he had on a uniform from the
airport there and got on the thing and asked the people that—the military people
wait until the “paying customers” could get their luggage. And I was really
upset and I don’t know what made me do it, but I went over and took the mic from
his hand and I said, “If you guys would only realize what these guys have been
through. They were in the field yesterday, and they’re here. You would be
honored to carry their luggage.” So the majority of the people stepped back.
There were still a few people.
But I held it together and I could never get a flight out of there to Ohio, to
Toledo, till the next day. So I always had to stay over the night in a hotel or
motel there. So of course, they have those phones to the different motels that
you can call. And so I called to have a car to pick me up to take me to my
normal Holiday Inn or something like that. So the guy came and the sweetest guy
you’d ever want to see. Of course, I had a uniform on and he was asking me about
it. And I got in there and he asked me a couple questions and I started crying.
I held it together till then. And he got so concerned and everything. He pulled
over, he got out, and he kept talking to me and everything. I got calmed down
and everything, and he got me to the hotel and stuff. That night, his wife
called me to see if I was all right, and I found out that they had lost three
sons over there. And then I felt even worse.
But just the whole country was just, it just wasn’t good. And for what those
guys went through, it just was unreal that the people had that attitude. You
know there were bad things that the GIs did, but there’s bad things in
everything. I mean you’re not going to be able to control. You’d like to, but
you can’t. And I think sometimes that breeds. You know, and I hate to say it,
and in those days—I don’t know if they still do it—but a lot of people had the
choice of going to jail and going to the army, and so you will have some unrest
and stuff like that. I don’t know if they still do that, but then they did it a lot.
TS:That’s right
CN:Not
to make any assumptions or anything.
TS:Did you—you had—would you say you had a difficult time
01:25:00then, in returning?
CN:Somewhat. After that, again, like I said, I couldn’t talk about it. By that
time I think my family pretty much backed off. Then I had trouble when I was
working in Maryland. I had met my husband through mutual friends in the army and
we had—I had gotten married and everything, and was working in Maryland when I
went through all this with the—I had trouble dealing with patients because of
the fact—I guess I didn’t have the patience to take care of them after seeing
what I saw. And then these, what I considered minor, but looking back now, it
was very major to these people, but I couldn’t see it. Fortunately, I’d been
married for about a year and I became pregnant, and so then I didn’t work for a
while. And that gave me time I think. Because I went right back to work when I
got home. So I hadn’t worked through some issues.
I think nurses didn’t have quite the issues that the men do, but then you look
back and we do. A lot of us still are dealing with it. We do everything in
excess, you know. We’re overweight, we eat too much, we smoke too much, some
people drank too much. You know, that you just feel like—I think everybody over
there felt like—some of the guys felt guilty because they lost their buddies.
You felt like, “Look at me, I survived this. I can survive anything.” And I
think that’s what’s been so hard for us to realize, that no, we can’t, you know?
And I think that is the biggest adjustment, and some of us haven’t made that
adjustment yet. When reality is going to look at us.
Some of us have had conditions that developed over there. And I think that’s
another thing that was so hard, that the government would not accept the fact
that some of these things, you know. I’m convinced I had Agent Orange
[herbicide] poisoning. I had become a diabetic, [with] no diabetic history at
all. They do not know what caused this tumor. It’s a big mystery. I had—it was
exactly ten years after I got back, all of a sudden, my hands up to here, my
feet up to mid-calf broke out. Just in great big massive cracks and stuff, and
would bleed and stuff. And it was really bad. I couldn’t hardly get, put
anything on it or anything. Talking to other guys, I knew of three guys in my
hometown that had the same thing, were all Vietnam vets. Exactly two years
almost to the date, it went away. It’s really strange. The same thing happened
to those guys.
TS:It’s not like eczema?
CN:No, it was just—I mean I hated to even put my hands out to get change because
it looked so bad. And a lot of times when I was in public I’d wear gloves
because it looked so bad. To this day I can’t stand heat on my hands and feet
for any length of time. So it’s really strange. I had a basal carcinoma on my
shoulder, which we had what we called jungle rot across our shoulders, which was
a type of a fungus that— So, and when I think of all the DDT [pesticide]
intoxication that these guys—and I think that’s what’s so bad, is that they’ve
seen so many birth defects and stuff like that, and they really don’t take the
responsibility of staying, “Yes, this did happen.”
Somebody asked me, “Well, why don’t you put in some claims?”
And I said, “No.” Because number one, all the red tape, number two, the guys
deserve it much more than I do. I can function. I can do things. So I think
that’s been hard to accept, that, yes, there was. And I think the guys from
Desert Storm are seeing the same thing with all the fuel oil, the lung problems
and stuff. You know, if they’re going to send our guys over there, then make
sure that you back them up. But that’s my soap box, I
will get off of that. [chuckles]
TS:It’s okay. I was going to ask you if you—so when you joined the army, it was
the Army Nurse Corps.
01:30:00Was there a period of time that you were supposed to serve? Was it a three year—?
CN:It was a two-year [commitment].
TS:A two-year, okay.
CN:Yes, and like I said, I got a little bit of an early out, because they were
usually giving early outs. And like I said, Vietnam was only one year, but
because I extended then I got the early out, because I just extended the six
months. So I was out within the eighteen months. I could’ve stayed in, and I
thought about making a career of it. But I was only a captain, so I would’ve had
to go back to school to become a major and in order to stay in. But at that time
there was a quirk of something that I would’ve had to—they recommended that I
get out, go to school on the GI Bill, and then reenlist. And then, of course, by
the time I got out, then I got married and the service was the last thing I
wanted to do. So I didn’t stay in. I don’t know if I could’ve stayed in. I don’t
know. Because I’ve always been kind of an outspoken person, and so I don’t know
if I could’ve buckled under all of it or not. I loved the travel. I would love
to travel, but life took a different turn.
TS:So your whole experience in the army was in—?
CN:Was Vietnam.
TS:And Fort Sam Houston.
CN:Yes.
TS:How about that? How do you feel about how the army treated you then? For a—
CN:Yeah. I think it was all right. I mean I got—I went in, I got what I wanted,
pay was good. I think it was okay.
TS:Anything not okay that you would care to share with us? [chuckles]
CN:I just don’t like the bureaucracy of the service and stuff like that, but I
suppose they have to have it. But anybody that—I don’t know. One cute thing was,
of course, I’d gone in as a first lieutenant, where most nurses went in as a
second lieutenant, but because of my experience and everything I went in as a
first lieutenant. And then after I had come home after the year and I was
checking back into country, this guy was sitting at the desk that I was checking
in, because you had to check in with your orders and stuff like that, and he
said, “Lieutenant, you’re out of uniform.” And of course, we never could get
things straight half the time and I thought, “Do I have my caduceus on the wrong
thing or something like that?” And he reached in his drawer and pulled out some
captains bars and he said, “Because you’re a captain now.” I had gotten promoted
when I was home and didn’t know it. So it was cute the way he told me that I got
promoted to captain.
TS:What’s a caduceus?
CN:It’s the—oh, I know you’ve seen it. It’s a medical insignia. It has the snake
up the—yes. And ours we had that, and then we had an N in it for nursing.
TS:That’s right, and they had the M for the medical. That’s right, okay, I
remember what those are now. Do you think there’s anything that you would like
to, you know, to have a civilian understand about life in the military, or even,
mostly because you were so—you were—it was all in Vietnam. Is there anything
that you think the people don’t understand that they should understand?
CN:I think, in talking to other people in the military, they said mostly the
stateside—what they have to serve stateside is just kind of like having a job.
That it’s not really—you know, you can have your own apartment and different
things like that. So I think—I think it would be a good career for someone that
really wants something with security and wants to see, kind of travel and stuff
like that. I think it would be good. I think if my daughter said she wanted to
join the military I probably would’ve said go for it. But I would’ve said get
your, either your bachelors or your masters or something before going in.
Because I
think it’s better if you do have that behind you and go in as an officer than as
an enlisted man. You just get a little bit more perks and stuff like that.
TS:As
01:35:00an enlisted person I can say yes. [chuckles]
CN:Yes, yes.
TS: I liked being enlisted, too. It was okay.
CN:The nurses loved the enlisted men.
TS:We talked a little bit about the anti-war movement and how you felt about
that. Is there anything you’d like to add to that? From when you came back,
more, because we talked about a little bit before you went in.
CN:Yes. I just, I don’t know. Maybe it was a time and they had to do it and all
of that. But I just don’t—I’m one—why bother with stuff like that. If you
question something or don’t agree with something, then do something. Make it
better, don’t just protest it. Make it better, or find out why it’s this way.
And I’ve always been that way, you know? It’s just like—and I think I said it in
the poem—that my daughter had asked me when we had all this Desert Storm welcome
home and stuff, which the Vietnam guys started, she said, “Why didn’t they do
this for the Vietnam vets?”
And I said, “It was a different time. Our country was at a different place,” and
stuff like that.
And I think that’s it. I’ve always said, you know, if you don’t agree with
something, find out why, what’s happening, and then do something. Don’t just
stand waving a flag and saying you know, “This is wrong.” Then figure out why
it’s wrong and do it. And I’ve always been that way. I just think there was a
lot of time wasted, money wasted, and stuff like that. It didn’t get us out of
there any sooner, I don’t think.
TS:How about the women’s movement?
CN:That has its pros and cons, which I think it’s been good. Of course, I’m all
for equal pay and stuff like that. I think that, like anything else, could be
taken to extreme. But I think it was good that we’re no longer in the dark ages
that way. Then I think that still women have got a lot to—a lot further to go,
but then again, I say I don’t know if I agree with the women in combat, you
know. So I guess I’m kind of wishy-washy on the subject. Just being over there
and not being in the fighting zone, you know, I just—I just can’t believe, I
don’t know, maybe they’re better people than I am. But I just—I don’t think it’s
right. But the women’s movement would differ with me. But it was good. It’s got
us a lot of things.
TS:I think there’s some on both sides of the women’s movement, some are anti-military—
CN:Yes, and some are the apron meeting at the door type thing.
TS:Now have you—were you able to use any of your veteran’s benefits at all?
CN:I didn’t. I probably could’ve when I bought my house, but I didn’t. And I
thought about going back to school. Now I did, once I retired and moved down
here, I did go to the VA [U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs] to see if I could
get some of my medicines and stuff like that. And I was treated better than most
of the guys were treated, but still wasn’t treated the best in the world. And
[I] was told that to get myself a civilian doctor because it would be months
before they could do anything with me. Which I’m kind of glad now, because I
developed—they discovered the tumor. But it’s just that they have so many that
they have to—you have to jump through so many hoops.
But then you have the other example, you have people who are taking advantage of
this, too. That they’re claiming or filing claims when they really don’t need to
file claims. So I think that’s what’s overwhelming, but I think the system’s so
overwhelmed. And people, I talked to other vets and they say, “Go for it. Go get
them,” and I will, probably eventually. But we were down there all day long and
I came out with nothing. They said, “Well call back in six months for an
appointment,” and I thought, you know, it’s just it’s not worth it right now.
There’s so many guys that need it worse than I do. And
that’s not being noble, it’s just—oh, I don’t know.
TS:Do you think that, because there’s been a lot in the news in the last couple
of years about
01:40:00the VA, do you feel that’s fair criticism that they’re getting or needed? You’re
kind of answering that.
CN:I think maybe some of it’s true. But again, working in a hospital most of my
career—of course, I don’t believe in mistakes happening and neglect and stuff
like that, but so many times, sometimes inspectors come in with no background
and don’t know what they’re looking at. So I think sometimes they see other
things that really aren’t the big deal that they see. They don’t know what
they’re seeing. But then again, I think there are some areas that really could
be very much improved on. But again, I should get involved if I want to know
what’s going on. [laughs]
TS:How about—you know a lot of Vietnam veterans. Do you know of any that may be
homeless? Or the issue of the homeless Vietnam veterans, is that an issue that
has concerned you at all?
CN:It’s concerned me, but I really haven’t come—been involved in it. Now when I
was up north, I served on the Veterans Commission, which—and again is another
prejudice that I kind of had to deal with. And it’s a judge appointed position,
and what we do is—or what I did when I was on the commission, is you review
cases of veterans asking for assistance. And it’s a temporary assistance that
maybe they’ve lost their job and they need money for heating and groceries and
stuff to get back on their feet and stuff. And so every month we would meet and
go through these cases. Now the com—or the service officer, he could okay
different things but then he had to run them through us. And so I saw a little
bit, and we did as much as we could. But the whole thing with that was to get
the veteran help to get them back on their feet so they wouldn’t be homeless.
But I also had a comment from some guys that observed our group and left and
wanted to know what in the H a woman was doing on that board. And so he got
promptly told by a few of the other veterans, “She has every right to be on the
board,” but that’s another whole story. I mean in Napoleon where I lived, we
didn’t have that much of it. I’m sure Toledo had it and stuff, but I hadn’t been
involved that much with it. I think we probably have got homeless just like
there’s other homeless people. And I really think things should—they should be
helped at all possible. And then you also have the ones that don’t want help,
too. So I think it’s a double-edged sword there.
TS:Do you think there’s any link to mental illness at all and some of the trauma
they went through?
CN:I think there is very legitimate the PSTD [PTSD, post-traumatic stress
disorder]. I think very much so. Again, you know, when they left one day and
arrived back here—and I think the combination of the country not accepting them.
I just can’t imagine killing somebody and then coming back and saying, “It’s all
right,” you know. And some of the living conditions and stuff like that. Then of
course, you have others that are claiming they never even saw any, you know,
fighting. So I think there is very legitimate reasons, and I think they need to
be helped, whether it’s a support group or, you know, something.
TS:Now you had started out a little bit, when you were talking about why you
went in the military, part of that—part of it, not all of it—had to do with
patriotism. Have your views on patriotism changed at all since then, since 1970?
CN:No, not really. Not really. In fact, I think even with 9/11 it’s gotten
stronger. I think everybody’s have gotten stronger with that. But, no. Like I
said, I’d do it again in a minute.
TS:Did being in the military change you at all?
CN:Oh definitely, definitely. I’m not as patient as what I used to be. My
daughter points that out to me all the time. And
then again, I kind of think I’m more understanding of certain things and stuff.
01:45:00But as far as job-wise and everything, military, I got the experience that I’ve
never had, would’ve never gotten in a lifetime and never will. But I also was
raised from a family that my father, “You do your job, and you do it well, and
you shut up about it.” So I think I still have that in the back of my mind, even
though I became more outspoken on certain things. I think maybe it’s made me a
better person, too. I really do. It’s made me proud of what I did.
TS:Would you—is there anything in particular that you would—advice that you
would give the current generation of women veterans or women—servicewomen?
CN:I think in a way they probably got it tougher than what we had. I think
again, because of being in combat. Like I said, there was—to my knowledge, there
was no sexual harassment in my whole area. Where I think now they have it more,
and I don’t know why it’s more, whether it’s just more common now or being
reported now, you know. I kind of feel bad about that. But I think it’s good,
you know, that—I think, like I said, try and get education or get your education
in the military. What a wonderful way to get it and get it paid for, if you can.
I think it’s great. I think we need people to go into the military.
TS:We have covered quite a lot.
CN:Yes.
TS:Is there anything that you’d like to add that we didn’t get a chance to talk about?
CN:I think it’s really great that something—that you’re doing this, because I’ve
always had the fear—and that’s one reason I wrote the poem, too, and I like to
give the poem out—because I’ve always had this fear because the women’s
veterans, especially the Vietnam era, were kind of back here, that we just kind
of disappear and nothing, you know, there would be one line in a history book
that, “Oh, X number of women served in Vietnam,” and that’s all you’d see. So
I’m really proud of that fact that you guys are doing this. I think it’s
wonderful. And one thing I didn’t bring up with my poem: you know, you always
want to help at least one person. And my church back home on Veterans Day, the
minister knew I had written this, so he asked me to come up and read it. And so
I read it in front of the church. And the next—the next Sunday, this young woman
came up to me that I had never met before. And she said, “I want to thank you
for your poem.”
And I said, “Well, thank you, that’s nice.”
And she said, “You know, my father was a Vietnam vet.” And she said, “He came
back and he was totally changed.” And she said, of course, “He became an
alcoholic.” She said, “My mother became very bitter.” She said, “He ended up
dying of alcoholism.” And she said, “My mother never forgave him.” She said,
“She was a very bitter person.” And she said, “After you read the poem, she
started crying and she said ‘I’m going to go visit his grave.’” And so she said,
“It made a world of difference.”
And I said, “That makes it all worthwhile.”
You know, things like that—I feel that my experience maybe could help someone
that’s really struggling with some things as to why—I still think about that,
these guys coming home and the families understanding what’s going on, what
these people—because sitting back here, we don’t realize. We’re lucky that we
don’t have a country at war, that we can walk out our door and do whatever we
want to. People don’t realize what it means to have a country in war, or to be
in that country and be in the war. It’s amazing.
TS:That’s very true.
CN:So really, thank you for doing this.
TS:Carol, thank you. I
really appreciate you sitting here and talking to us and I hope I get the—some
of the, our acronyms down for the transcriber.
CN:Oh, I hope I didn’t talk too much and too much around
01:50:00and stuff like that.
TS:No, you were terrific, I’ll go ahead and stop it.
[recoding paused]
TS:Okay, Carol, we’re back on again. I have one question that kind of came up
there, that you were talking about the Bronze Star [medal], how you were awarded
the Bronze Star and what happened.
CN:Yes. While I was over there, I was awarded the Bronze Star, and [the]
citation [was] all written up and everything. There were several of us nurses
that were to receive medals while we were over there. And they had a big
ceremony in the colonel’s place where he was. And we all refused to go and get
our medals, because we felt like we did not deserve it, that the guys in the
field deserved it much more. We were over there doing our job, so therefore we
did not deserve it. So I did not bring mine home. It was sent to my home after I
was out of the service. So I have it, but it was sent to me, I didn’t accept it.
TS:Do you think a number of the women felt that way about—?
CN:I think a lot of them did that, you know, we were there doing our job. We
weren’t being heroes. We weren’t—you know, the guys deserved it so much more
than what we did. We were doing our job.
TS:Did you get any award at—that you thought—that you are proud of?
CN:We got the Good Conduct Medal. Everybody got that. [chuckles] You know, no,
I’m not. Just the fact that we were appreciated was reward enough. Sounds hokey,
but it’s true.
TS:The one fellow telling you that you were the most beautiful.
CN:Yes, that was the best reward ever.
TS:Well very good, well thank you for adding that. I thought that was—
CN:Okay.
[End of Interview]
01:55:00